Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote load shedding

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I'm interested in this also. This is becoming increasingly necessary as we
install "whole home" backup systems, but we need to dump a load that is on
a downstream subpanel. A common need is to shed pool equipment like
electric heat pumps and pool pumps when utility power is lost. In other
cases, the backup system interconnection point is outside at a meter/main
combination service entrance device, but the loads we need to shed are on a
downstream distribution load center.

Sometimes wiring control cables to do this is cumbersome or virtually
impossible.

A while back I ended up purchasing a 24Vac remote 900 Mhz relay to shed air
conditioning, but ultimately I never installed it because it was too
complicated and introduced an unacceptable point of failure (potential
service issue). We need some reliable, simple load shedding products that
are brand agnostic.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956


On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 1:06 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
> Is anyone aware of a remote load shedding solution that doesn't require
> additional signal wiring to the loads?
>
> Generac has a great solution for this that they adapted from their
> generator business called a Generac Smart management module.  Its a 2P x
> 50A relay that monitors line frequency going to the load and it will trip
> it off line when the frequency sags.  The inverter does a small wiggle that
> will trip it offline based on some Dip switch settings. on the unit.  This
> really simplifies code compliance in some cases.
>
> I'm wondering if there are any other more general solutions out there for
> this.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, most
want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate.

While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long as
you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to full
regularly.   Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, they
should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate damage to the
cells.

Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings.   Too many
people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they have
parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, or the
batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers.

In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the
absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need
balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get that
time if you have longer absorb timers.

We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following.   Assuming
that you are charging at least the C2 Rate.

1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers.
2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins.
3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins.
4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS is
> they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging
> the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge.  My
> oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>>
>> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
>> pouch?
>>
>> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
>> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
>> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>>
>> Wondering what you all think and know
>>
>> Thx
>> Jay
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote load shedding

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Hi Mac,

Below is what I use from Schneider for 200A grid-tie. They finally made 
it easy, not inexpensive though. Offgrid version firmware out in the 
fall.


https://solar.se.com/us/en/product/backup-control-switch/

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-06-26 10:05 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hello Wrenches,

Is anyone aware of a remote load shedding solution that doesn't require 
additional signal wiring to the loads?


Generac has a great solution for this that they adapted from their 
generator business called a Generac Smart management module.  Its a 2P 
x 50A relay that monitors line frequency going to the load and it will 
trip it off line when the frequency sags.  The inverter does a small 
wiggle that will trip it offline based on some Dip switch settings. on 
the unit.  This really simplifies code compliance in some cases.


I'm wondering if there are any other more general solutions out there 
for this.


Thanks in advance!

--

Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote load shedding

[david quattro via RE-wrenches]

GENERAC also makes a 100 amp version of the SMM



On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 3:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I'm interested in this also. This is becoming increasingly necessary as we
> install "whole home" backup systems, but we need to dump a load that is on
> a downstream subpanel. A common need is to shed pool equipment like
> electric heat pumps and pool pumps when utility power is lost. In other
> cases, the backup system interconnection point is outside at a meter/main
> combination service entrance device, but the loads we need to shed are on a
> downstream distribution load center.
>
> Sometimes wiring control cables to do this is cumbersome or virtually
> impossible.
>
> A while back I ended up purchasing a 24Vac remote 900 Mhz relay to shed
> air conditioning, but ultimately I never installed it because it was too
> complicated and introduced an unacceptable point of failure (potential
> service issue). We need some reliable, simple load shedding products that
> are brand agnostic.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 1:06 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> Is anyone aware of a remote load shedding solution that doesn't require
>> additional signal wiring to the loads?
>>
>> Generac has a great solution for this that they adapted from their
>> generator business called a Generac Smart management module.  Its a 2P x
>> 50A relay that monitors line frequency going to the load and it will trip
>> it off line when the frequency sags.  The inverter does a small wiggle that
>> will trip it offline based on some Dip switch settings. on the unit.  This
>> really simplifies code compliance in some cases.
>>
>> I'm wondering if there are any other more general solutions out there for
>> this.
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Mac Lewis
>>
>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
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>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___
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> --

David Quattro
CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46
ph (415) 312-2661
www.quattrosolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

These are 100 amp hr eg4 48v  batteries. Tech support said their recommended charge rate per battery is 30-50 amps. I asked because Ive never heard this and it still doesn’t sound correct. All of the responses have been consistent and I will try to get someone higher up to review all this and report backThxJayOn Jun 27, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi Steve,My experience is different. First, I don’t know of any stationary battery systems that have C2 charge ability, many not even C1. A 20kWh bank C2 rate would be 40kW or over 770Amps @ 52V. I have 10 years experience with Li batteries, (hundreds of Li installations, mobile and off grid), and thousands of LiFeBlue Battery customers, low current charging works without issues. Most of these systems charge at the high end 0.35 C rate or less. Jay did not mention the bank size so we don’t know the C rate for the 30-50 Amp recommendation. But I guess it is far lower than 1C.Long absorb (CV) times may cause a cell to saturate resulting in rapid voltage rise and the BMS protection inhibiting input current. This sudden loss of load (essentially a battery disconnect) can cause havoc with some inverter/chargers and PV solar controllers. In our experience, the best method to set Absorb times for any Li system is by trial. If the cell voltages are staying relatively close during discharge (6mv in the attached image), then balancing time (> 3.55V CV) is sufficient, whether it is 0.1 hours or much more.  
Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems(GM, LiFeBlue Battery)

<32ED5403-8A66-4ED5-AFFD-E308D5FC48C6_1_105_c.jpeg>On Jun 27, 2023, at 6:33 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches  wrote:For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, most want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate.    While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long as you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to full regularly.   Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, they should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate damage to the cells. Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings.   Too many people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they have parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, or the batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers. In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get that time if you have longer absorb timers. We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following.   Assuming that you are charging at least the C2 Rate. 1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers. 2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins. 3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins. 4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins Steve Higgins ⋅ 
Technical Services Manager 
 
 
t 
+1.902.597.4020  m 
+1.206.790.5840f +1.902.597.8447  e 
st...@surrette.com 
CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies.On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS is they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge.  My oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi All

I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch?

A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. 

Wondering what you all think and know

Thx
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Jay, I do not know/use this brand. Got this off the internet. Looks to 
me like they are telling you max charge is 100A but max life is 30 - 50a 
charge.

only a 5 year warranty so   Good Luck !

 Voltage 51.2V
Capacity 100Ah
Charging Voltage (Bulk/Absorb) 56.2V (+/- 0.2V)
Float 54V (+/- 0.2V)
Low DC Cutoff 47-44V (depending on load - start high, lower if needed)
Charging Current Max Constant Charge: 100A (30-50A recommended)
Discharging Current Max Constant Discharge: 100A

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-06-27 2:01 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:


These are 100 amp hr eg4 48v  batteries.
Tech support said their recommended charge rate per battery is 30-50 
amps.


I asked because Ive never heard this and it still doesn't sound 
correct.


All of the responses have been consistent and I will try to get someone 
higher up to review all this and report back


Thx
Jay

On Jun 27, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi Steve,

My experience is different. First, I don't know of any stationary 
battery systems that have C2 charge ability, many not even C1. A 20kWh 
bank C2 rate would be 40kW or over 770Amps @ 52V. I have 10 years 
experience with Li batteries, (hundreds of Li installations, mobile and 
off grid), and thousands of LiFeBlue Battery customers, low current 
charging works without issues. Most of these systems charge at the high 
end 0.35 C rate or less. Jay did not mention the bank size so we don't 
know the C rate for the 30-50 Amp recommendation. But I guess it is far 
lower than 1C.


Long absorb (CV) times may cause a cell to saturate resulting in rapid 
voltage rise and the BMS protection inhibiting input current. This 
sudden loss of load (essentially a battery disconnect) can cause havoc 
with some inverter/chargers and PV solar controllers. In our 
experience, the best method to set Absorb times for any Li system is by 
trial. If the cell voltages are staying relatively close during 
discharge (6mv in the attached image), then balancing time (> 3.55V CV) 
is sufficient, whether it is 0.1 hours or much more.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(GM, LiFeBlue Battery)

<32ED5403-8A66-4ED5-AFFD-E308D5FC48C6_1_105_c.jpeg>

On Jun 27, 2023, at 6:33 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, 
most want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate.


While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long 
as you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to 
full regularly.   Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, 
they should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate 
damage to the cells.


Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings.   Too 
many people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they 
have parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, 
or the batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers.


In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the 
absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need 
balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get 
that time if you have longer absorb timers.


We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following.   Assuming 
that you are charging at least the C2 Rate.


1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers.
2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins.
3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins.
4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins

[1]
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
[2] [3] [4] [5]

-

CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only 
for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or 
privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use 
of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is 
prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the 
sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies.

-

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:
Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS 
is they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop 
charging the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill 
charge.  My oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they 
have been fine


On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote: Hi All


I'm wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs 
pouch?


A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of 
balanced. Tech support didn't suggest higher volts or longer absorb but 
did mention they need 3

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jay and all,  I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest
set of LiFe is almost 10 years?  It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2
because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar.  These batteries are doing
fine.  I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity but

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>
> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
> pouch?
>
> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>
> Wondering what you all think and know
>
> Thx
> Jay
> ___
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