Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Standard?

2022-12-02 Thread Windy Dankoff via RE-wrenches 
Dear Mike,

As co-author of upcoming book "The Handbook of Solar Water Pumping", we have 
expanded its definition to include micro and national grid-tied systems in 
which pumping is synchronized with power availability from PV. I had known 
about frequency-based load control for microgrids (from an SMA-based microgrid 
I toured in Israel). I had no idea it was a happening system on public grids 
until I read your response here. I love how it requires no communication lines 
or digital signals. It's a "natural" and logical concept from the old days of 
spinning generators under varying load.

I see your PG&E reference, but is there also a reference text you can recommend 
that I can use in the book as a universal explanation of how this works?  It 
can be SMA documentation, or other ref.  You can reply here if it's useful to 
the list, and/or contact me off-line.

Thanks!  – Windy

> On Dec 1, 2022, at 5:47 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote:
> 
> From: Harry Mahon  >
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Standard?
> Date: December 1, 2022 at 5:47:18 PM MST
> To: RE-wrenches  >
> 
> 
> Definitely it is possible for newer grid-interactive inverters.  However, for 
> grid-tied operation, the utility that runs the grid sets the rules (and sets 
> the setpoints as it were), and it can be confusing
>  
> Looking at PG&E’s Rule 21 tarriff (submitted Aug 12, 2022, effective Nov 4, 
> 2022) Freq-Watt reuirements are:
> “When system frequency exceeds 60.036 Hz, the active power output produced by 
> the Smart Inverter shall be reduced by 50% of real power nameplate rating per 
> hertz (5% of real power nameplate rating reduction per 0.1 hertz)”
> Bottom of Sheet 207 of : 
> https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_RULES_21.pdf
>  
> So a 5kW inverter needs to ramp at 2.5kW/Hz.  But if it is only producing 
> 2.5kW, it has to be at 0W at 61.036Hz.
>  
> Mike

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Standard?

2022-12-02 Thread Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches 
Utilities have used and continue to use this method of control for their
own generators, except they refer to it as Droop Control. In addition to
Frequency/Watt response Voltage/VAR response is also used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droop_speed_control

Building inverters that mimic the behaviour of spinning generators is a
great development as some jurisdictions now require, for example,
ride-through capability when brown-outs occur, rather than the older
requirement for inverters to simply turn off when voltage or frequency
dropped below certain limits, which just exacerbated brown-outs.
Essentially an inverter can be programmed to have "inertia" just like a big
spinning generator.
Larger grid-interactive inverters have done this for a while, with very
complex settings, but we are now seeing smaller residential and
commercial inverters with similar capabilities.
This industry keeps evolving and improving, which is great for keeping us
on our toes and I find it very exciting.


*Eric Smiley,* Project Manager
e...@vecoop.ca
T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004>
T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116>
*VIRIDIANENERGY.CA *

* *


On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 at 07:08, Windy Dankoff via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Dear Mike,
>
> As co-author of upcoming book "The Handbook of Solar Water Pumping", we
> have expanded its definition to include micro and national grid-tied
> systems in which pumping is synchronized with power availability from PV. I
> had known about frequency-based load control for microgrids (from an
> SMA-based microgrid I toured in Israel). I had no idea it was a happening
> system on public grids until I read your response here. I love how it
> requires no communication lines or digital signals. It's a "natural" and
> logical concept from the old days of spinning generators under varying load.
>
> I see your PG&E reference, but is there also a reference text you can
> recommend that I can use in the book as a universal explanation of how this
> works?  It can be SMA documentation, or other ref.  You can reply here if
> it's useful to the list, and/or contact me off-line.
>
> Thanks!  – Windy
>
> On Dec 1, 2022, at 5:47 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> wrote:
>
> *From: *Harry Mahon 
> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Standard?*
> *Date: *December 1, 2022 at 5:47:18 PM MST
> *To: *RE-wrenches 
>
>
> Definitely it is possible for newer grid-interactive inverters.  However,
> for grid-tied operation, the utility that runs the grid sets the rules (and
> sets the setpoints as it were), and it can be confusing
>
> Looking at PG&E’s Rule 21 tarriff (submitted Aug 12, 2022, effective Nov
> 4, 2022) Freq-Watt reuirements are:
> “When system frequency exceeds 60.036 Hz, the active power output produced
> by the Smart Inverter shall be reduced by 50% of real power nameplate
> rating per hertz (5% of real power nameplate rating reduction per 0.1
> hertz)”
> Bottom of Sheet 207 of :
> https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_RULES_21.pdf
>
> So a 5kW inverter needs to ramp at 2.5kW/Hz.  But if it is only producing
> 2.5kW, it has to be at 0W at 61.036Hz.
>
> Mike
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing

2022-12-02 Thread William Miller via RE-wrenches 
Colleagues:



I am gearing up to tap some more copper.  I assume this is a pertinent
subject since bus bars are going to be needed frequently for any storage
work.



I bought the fancy drill press with the tapping function and I am setting
it up.  I ran a few tests and the functionality of the tool is pretty
amazing.  I still need to work on programming it to reverse when needed.  I
am close.  I also ordered a cross vise for part holding.



I found this tutorial

on line that has provided me with some valuable insight on different styles
of taps.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, September 12, 2022 7:39 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Michael Morningstar
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing



No, I haven't. I'll do some testing tomorrow as we have 60 holes/taps to do
in the above mentioned bussing



On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:54 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Michael,

 Are you using kerosene as a cutting fluid?  We've had
better luck with that in softer than steel metals.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049

On 9/11/2022 7:00 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
> We've gotten around needing UL listings for one-off in house
> fabrication by running things through a licensed engineer. Right now
> we are building a gutter bus which has two 1/2" x 4" x 20' copper bars
> in a 10" x 10" gutter. We are using 2" x 9" x 9" UDPM plates with
> slots routed out for the bars as insulators. This is for 24 Discover
> AES and 8 Sol-Ark's. It usually costs about 1K to have an engineer
> sign off on our designs.
>
> I'd be interested in learning tricks for tapping 3/8" in thick copper.
> I've never been able to get consistent results and resort to
> thru-bolting.


-- 
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-- 

Michael Morningstar



Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmornings...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing

2022-12-02 Thread Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches 
I recently found that Victron makes DC bus bars for battery work with studs 
already on them. Up to 600A models are available.-GlennSent from my 
'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.-- Original 
message--From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Dec 2, 2022 3:42 
PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William Miller;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current 
battery combiners, UL ListingColleagues: I am gearing up to tap some more 
copper.  I assume this is a pertinent subject since bus bars are going to be 
needed frequently for any storage work. I bought the fancy drill press with the 
tapping function and I am setting it up.  I ran a few tests and the 
functionality of the tool is pretty amazing.  I still need to work on 
programming it to reverse when needed.  I am close.  I also ordered a cross 
vise for part holding. I found this tutorial on line that has provided me with 
some valuable insight on different styles of taps.   William Miller Solar17395 
Oak Road, Ata
 scadero, CA
 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  From: RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
Morningstar via RE-wrenchesSent: Monday, September 12, 2022 7:39 PMTo: 
RE-wrenchesCc: Michael MorningstarSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current 
battery combiners, UL Listing No, I haven't. I'll do some testing tomorrow as 
we have 60 holes/taps to do in the above mentioned bussing On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 
at 7:54 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches  
wrote:Michael,         Are you using kerosene as a cutting fluid?  We've 
had better luck with that in softer than steel metals.BillFeather River Solar 
ElectricBill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA 
Lic 874049On 9/11/2022 7:00 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:> 
We've gotten around needing UL listings for one-off in house > fabrication by 
running things through a licensed engineer. Right now > we are building a g
 utter bus which
 has two 1/2" x 4" x 20' copper bars > in a 10" x 10" gutter. We are using 2" x 
9" x 9" UDPM plates with > slots routed out for the bars as insulators. This is 
for 24 Discover > AES and 8 Sol-Ark's. It usually costs about 1K to have an 
engineer > sign off on our designs.>> I'd be interested in learning tricks for 
tapping 3/8" in thick copper. > I've never been able to get consistent results 
and resort to > thru-bolting.-- This email has been checked for viruses by 
Avast antivirus 
software.www.avast.com___List 
sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: 
http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: re-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange 
listserver email address & 
settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere
 are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
 
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 rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update 
participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar 
Morningstar ElectricPO Box 1494Mount Shasta, CA 
96067530-921-0560mjmornings...@gmail.com___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing

2022-12-02 Thread Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
Wrenches, William
I did a few back up systems for data hubs, we had 250+ kWhr systems. We had
to have a firewall between the batteries and everything else. We used
copper stock 1/2 x 2" and 20' long, each bank connected to the buss with
its own 250 a breaker, the buss was above the batteries mounted to SS strut
using 1000 volt insulators on both positive and negative. The power
conditioners were on the opposite side of the wall again all connected to
the buss going to each unit and again protected. Was very clean, no line
loss, very clean and was duplicated in several locations. We also had a 125
k cummins  genny outside that would take over to keep us all connected.
Jerry
PS, we did not tap and we used brass bolts and nuts, l dont recall why but
it may have not been able to torg enough.


On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 12:42 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Colleagues:
>
>
>
> I am gearing up to tap some more copper.  I assume this is a pertinent
> subject since bus bars are going to be needed frequently for any storage
> work.
>
>
>
> I bought the fancy drill press with the tapping function and I am setting
> it up.  I ran a few tests and the functionality of the tool is pretty
> amazing.  I still need to work on programming it to reverse when needed.  I
> am close.  I also ordered a cross vise for part holding.
>
>
>
> I found this tutorial
> 
> on line that has provided me with some valuable insight on different styles
> of taps.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Monday, September 12, 2022 7:39 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Michael Morningstar
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing
>
>
>
> No, I haven't. I'll do some testing tomorrow as we have 60 holes/taps to
> do in the above mentioned bussing
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:54 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
>  Are you using kerosene as a cutting fluid?  We've had
> better luck with that in softer than steel metals.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
>
> On 9/11/2022 7:00 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
> > We've gotten around needing UL listings for one-off in house
> > fabrication by running things through a licensed engineer. Right now
> > we are building a gutter bus which has two 1/2" x 4" x 20' copper bars
> > in a 10" x 10" gutter. We are using 2" x 9" x 9" UDPM plates with
> > slots routed out for the bars as insulators. This is for 24 Discover
> > AES and 8 Sol-Ark's. It usually costs about 1K to have an engineer
> > sign off on our designs.
> >
> > I'd be interested in learning tricks for tapping 3/8" in thick copper.
> > I've never been able to get consistent results and resort to
> > thru-bolting.
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
> ___
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Morningstar
>
>
>
> Morningstar Electric
>
> PO Box 1494
>
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
>
> 530-921-0560
>
> mjmornings...@gmail.com
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing

2022-12-02 Thread Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches 
Actually up to 1500 amps available including 1000 amp version as well. It’s 
hidden in the spec sheets under large fuse holders. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 2, 2022, at 5:20 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I recently found that Victron makes DC bus bars for battery work with studs 
> already on them. Up to 600A models are available.
> 
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
> 
> -- Original message--
> From: William Miller via RE-wrenches
> Date: Fri, Dec 2, 2022 3:42 PM
> To: RE-wrenches;
> Cc: William Miller;
> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing
> 
> Colleagues:
> 
>  
> 
> I am gearing up to tap some more copper.  I assume this is a pertinent 
> subject since bus bars are going to be needed frequently for any storage work.
> 
>  
> 
> I bought the fancy drill press with the tapping function and I am setting it 
> up.  I ran a few tests and the functionality of the tool is pretty amazing.  
> I still need to work on programming it to reverse when needed.  I am close.  
> I also ordered a cross vise for part holding.
> 
>  
> 
> I found this tutorial on line that has provided me with some valuable insight 
> on different styles of taps. 
> 
>  
> 
> William
> 
>  
> 
> Miller Solar
> 
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 
> 805-438-5600
> 
> www.millersolar.com
> 
> CA Lic. 773985
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 7:39 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Cc: Michael Morningstar
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing
> 
>  
> 
> No, I haven't. I'll do some testing tomorrow as we have 60 holes/taps to do 
> in the above mentioned bussing
> 
>  
> 
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:54 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Michael,
> 
>  Are you using kerosene as a cutting fluid?  We've had 
> better luck with that in softer than steel metals.
> 
> Bill
> 
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> 
> On 9/11/2022 7:00 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
> > We've gotten around needing UL listings for one-off in house 
> > fabrication by running things through a licensed engineer. Right now 
> > we are building a gutter bus which has two 1/2" x 4" x 20' copper bars 
> > in a 10" x 10" gutter. We are using 2" x 9" x 9" UDPM plates with 
> > slots routed out for the bars as insulators. This is for 24 Discover 
> > AES and 8 Sol-Ark's. It usually costs about 1K to have an engineer 
> > sign off on our designs.
> >
> > I'd be interested in learning tricks for tapping 3/8" in thick copper. 
> > I've never been able to get consistent results and resort to 
> > thru-bolting.
> 
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> Change listserver email address & settings:
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> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> --
> 
> Michael Morningstar
>  
> Morningstar Electric
> PO Box 1494
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
> 530-921-0560
> mjmornings...@gmail.com
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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