Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FXR: Battery voltage exceeds settings

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Most AGM's don't like voltage that high and it swells the battery and
destroys its storage capability alot of the time
Jerry

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 7:50 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> William,
>
> If the battery cases swelled, they saw over 52 degrees C temps for quite
> some time.
>
> While the swelling is usually only cosmetic, what's happening inside is
> the negative plates are starting to burn. This is where you will start to
> lose capacity and life cycle...  Extended temps of just 35C will half the
> overall battery life.
>
> One of the issues with the Outback gear is they only temp compensate at
> 5mv/Degree/cell. For all the AGM batteries I know of, you need to temp
> compensate at 4mv.   In hot temps, this should help, but cold temps could
> result in an overcharge.   Did you check the BTS and make sure it was
> operating properly?
>
> Another issue is that BTSs are often placed on the top or lug of the
> battery,   The top of the battery is about 5-10 deg C cooler than 1/2 way
> down the side of the battery, Which will also cause problems with proper
> temperature compensation, especially with warmer/colder extremes.
>
> Any kind of sulfation will cause an imbalance when you mix old and new
> batteries.   I'm not a fan of mixing any age AGM batteries as there is no
> way to tell what the SOC of the old bank vs. the new bank is.   They are
> not like flooded batteries; you can check SGs and dissipate heat
> much better than AGM or GEL batteries.   I discourage doing this if you
> can.   I probably wouldn't have mixed the old and new in the same strings.
> This way, you keep the higher resistance batteries in a single string,
>
> Lastly, bunching them together with no spacing between them is very bad.
> Batteries should be in a cool, dry environment.  Most battery companies
> want to see 1-3 inches in between each battery to allow for effective
> cooling. When they are all bunched up together, that is a lot of thermal
> mass that doesn't have much chance of cooling.   I have seen two parallel
> strings of AGMs take 24-36 hours with no charging or load to drop from 45c
> to 25C!
>
> Hope this helps!  Have a good weekend.
>
>
>
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
> <#m_-3124562702126219588_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>
> --
> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for
> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
> destroy this message and all copies.
> --
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 6:48 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I maintain a system with 16 AGM L-16 batteries.  Eight were installed in
>> September of 2021 and 8 were added in March of 2022.  This is 5 months
>> apart.  I have understood that when you install a string of batteries you
>> have one year in which to add another string before the first string ages
>> to the point it is contraindicated.  When I added the second 8 I put 4 new
>> batteries and 4 old batteries in each string.
>>
>>
>>
>> About a third of the batteries are discovered to bulging on top.  I
>> assume this means the batteries are damaged.  I checked the FXR and Outback
>> Extreme Charge controller settings and all were set to absorb at 58.8, and
>> float at 55.2, as the manufacturer recommends.
>>
>>
>>
>> I downloaded the charge controller log and got 129 days of data.  In that
>> log I see 68 days where the batteries exceeded 60 VDC. This is over half
>> the days.
>>
>>
>>
>> I wonder this:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.   Why did the voltage go up above 58.8 on so many days even though it
>> was set at 58.8. (I set the EQ voltage at 58.8 just in case, but EQ was

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FXR: Battery voltage exceeds settings

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Outback controllers have a tendency to be a bit slow. 

So they can definitely get higher than the set points but only for a second or 
two which is not going do damage anything. I’ve seen them do this. 

Especially if it’s a larger array, sealed batteries and when the batteries are 
full and a load turns on and then off. 

At the load off the CC is dumping watts, and the sudden loss means a short 
voltage spike. 

Jay




> On Jul 23, 2022, at 9:43 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Most AGM's don't like voltage that high and it swells the battery and 
> destroys its storage capability alot of the time
> Jerry
> 
>> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 7:50 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> William, 
>> 
>> If the battery cases swelled, they saw over 52 degrees C temps for quite 
>> some time.   
>> 
>> While the swelling is usually only cosmetic, what's happening inside is the 
>> negative plates are starting to burn. This is where you will start to lose 
>> capacity and life cycle...  Extended temps of just 35C will half the overall 
>> battery life. 
>> 
>> One of the issues with the Outback gear is they only temp compensate at 
>> 5mv/Degree/cell. For all the AGM batteries I know of, you need to temp 
>> compensate at 4mv.   In hot temps, this should help, but cold temps could 
>> result in an overcharge.   Did you check the BTS and make sure it was 
>> operating properly? 
>> 
>> Another issue is that BTSs are often placed on the top or lug of the 
>> battery,   The top of the battery is about 5-10 deg C cooler than 1/2 way 
>> down the side of the battery, Which will also cause problems with proper 
>> temperature compensation, especially with warmer/colder extremes.  
>> 
>> Any kind of sulfation will cause an imbalance when you mix old and new 
>> batteries.   I'm not a fan of mixing any age AGM batteries as there is no 
>> way to tell what the SOC of the old bank vs. the new bank is.   They are not 
>> like flooded batteries; you can check SGs and dissipate heat much better 
>> than AGM or GEL batteries.   I discourage doing this if you can.   I 
>> probably wouldn't have mixed the old and new in the same strings. This way, 
>> you keep the higher resistance batteries in a single string,  
>> 
>> Lastly, bunching them together with no spacing between them is very bad. 
>> Batteries should be in a cool, dry environment.  Most battery companies want 
>> to see 1-3 inches in between each battery to allow for effective cooling. 
>> When they are all bunched up together, that is a lot of thermal mass that 
>> doesn't have much chance of cooling.   I have seen two parallel strings of 
>> AGMs take 24-36 hours with no charging or load to drop from 45c to 25C! 
>> 
>> Hope this helps!  Have a good weekend. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
>> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
>> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the 
>> addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged 
>> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the 
>> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you 
>> receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy 
>> this message and all copies.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 6:48 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Friends:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I maintain a system with 16 AGM L-16 batteries.  Eight were installed in 
>>> September of 2021 and 8 were added in March of 2022.  This is 5 months 
>>> apart.  I have understood that when you install a string of batteries you 
>>> have one year in which to add another string before the first string ages 
>>> to the point it is contraindicated.  When I added the second 8 I put 4 new 
>>> batteries and 4 old batteries in each string.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> About a third of the batteries are discovered to bulging on top.  I assume 
>>> this means the batteries are damaged.  I checked the FXR and Outback 
>>> Extreme Charge controller settings and all were set to absorb at 58.8, and 
>>> float at 55.2, as the manufacturer recommends. 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I downloaded the charge controller log and got 129 days of data.  In that 
>>> log I see 68 days where the batteries exceeded 60 VDC. This is over half 
>>> the days.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I wonder this:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 1.   Why did the voltage go up above 58.8 on so many days even though it 
>>> was set at 58.8. (I set the EQ voltage at 58.8 just in case, but EQ was 
>>> never engaged.)
>>> 
>>> 2.   Did the excess voltage damage the batteries?
>>> 
>>> Any input is appreciated.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> William Miller
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Miller Solar
>>> 
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>> 
>>> 805-438-5600
>>> 
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>> 
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> _

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FXR: Battery voltage exceeds settings

[Nicholas Welch via RE-wrenches]

Is there an FNDC on this system? I’ve experienced some of the same issues
when the FNDC terminations were loose.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2022 at 11:56 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Outback controllers have a tendency to be a bit slow.
>
> So they can definitely get higher than the set points but only for a
> second or two which is not going do damage anything. I’ve seen them do
> this.
>
> Especially if it’s a larger array, sealed batteries and when the batteries
> are full and a load turns on and then off.
>
> At the load off the CC is dumping watts, and the sudden loss means a short
> voltage spike.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2022, at 9:43 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Most AGM's don't like voltage that high and it swells the battery and
> destroys its storage capability alot of the time
> Jerry
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 7:50 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> William,
>>
>> If the battery cases swelled, they saw over 52 degrees C temps for quite
>> some time.
>>
>> While the swelling is usually only cosmetic, what's happening inside is
>> the negative plates are starting to burn. This is where you will start to
>> lose capacity and life cycle...  Extended temps of just 35C will half the
>> overall battery life.
>>
>> One of the issues with the Outback gear is they only temp compensate at
>> 5mv/Degree/cell. For all the AGM batteries I know of, you need to temp
>> compensate at 4mv.   In hot temps, this should help, but cold temps could
>> result in an overcharge.   Did you check the BTS and make sure it was
>> operating properly?
>>
>> Another issue is that BTSs are often placed on the top or lug of the
>> battery,   The top of the battery is about 5-10 deg C cooler than 1/2 way
>> down the side of the battery, Which will also cause problems with proper
>> temperature compensation, especially with warmer/colder extremes.
>>
>> Any kind of sulfation will cause an imbalance when you mix old and new
>> batteries.   I'm not a fan of mixing any age AGM batteries as there is no
>> way to tell what the SOC of the old bank vs. the new bank is.   They are
>> not like flooded batteries; you can check SGs and dissipate heat
>> much better than AGM or GEL batteries.   I discourage doing this if you
>> can.   I probably wouldn't have mixed the old and new in the same strings.
>> This way, you keep the higher resistance batteries in a single string,
>>
>> Lastly, bunching them together with no spacing between them is very bad.
>> Batteries should be in a cool, dry environment.  Most battery companies
>> want to see 1-3 inches in between each battery to allow for effective
>> cooling. When they are all bunched up together, that is a lot of thermal
>> mass that doesn't have much chance of cooling.   I have seen two parallel
>> strings of AGMs take 24-36 hours with no charging or load to drop from 45c
>> to 25C!
>>
>> Hope this helps!  Have a good weekend.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
>> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
>> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
>>
>> <#m_-4178165466314050815_m_-3124562702126219588_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>>
>> --
>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for
>> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
>> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
>> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
>> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
>> destroy this message and all copies.
>> --
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 6:48 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I maintain a system with 16 AGM L-16 batteries.  Eight were installed in
>>> September of 2021 and 8 were added in March of 2022.  This is 5 months
>>> apart.  I have understood that w

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters

[Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches]

I have installed three of the Samlex EVO series in the last few years, 
all 24V units and all with Midnite E-Panels, and all have worked 
flawlessly. I've ordered all as preassembled units from Midnite.

Allan

On 7/20/2022 4:34 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote:
The Samlex EVO4248SP is a potential substitute. The only system panel 
is the MidNite E-panel. This is a 4.2 kW split phase inverter.

Brad
AEE Solar



--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters

[Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches]

We’ve ordered one to try since we cannot get the PAEs.
I hope Magnum can resume shipping orders in the 38 weeks I was told!

Jeremy Rodriguez
Solar Installation / Design Expert
All Solar, Inc.
1453 M St
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.

On Jul 23, 2022, at 1:24 PM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

 I have installed three of the Samlex EVO series in the last few years, all 
24V units and all with Midnite E-Panels, and all have worked flawlessly. I've 
ordered all as preassembled units from Midnite.
Allan

On 7/20/2022 4:34 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote:
The Samlex EVO4248SP is a potential substitute. The only system panel is the 
MidNite E-panel. This is a 4.2 kW split phase inverter.
Brad
AEE Solar

--
Allan Sindelar
al...@sindelarsolar.com
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters

[Allan Sindelar via RE-wrenches]

One caution, Jeremy. The EVOs that I used are only available in 120V input and 
output, and Magnum PAEs are split phase 120/240. 
Allan

> On Jul 23, 2022, at 3:34 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
>  We’ve ordered one to try since we cannot get the PAEs.
> I hope Magnum can resume shipping orders in the 38 weeks I was told!
> 
> Jeremy Rodriguez 
> Solar Installation / Design Expert 
> All Solar, Inc.
> 1453 M St
> Penrose Colorado 81240
> 
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. 
> 
>>> On Jul 23, 2022, at 1:24 PM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>  I have installed three of the Samlex EVO series in the last few years, all 
>> 24V units and all with Midnite E-Panels, and all have worked flawlessly. 
>> I've ordered all as preassembled units from Midnite.
>> Allan
>> 
>>> On 7/20/2022 4:34 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>> The Samlex EVO4248SP is a potential substitute. The only system panel is 
>>> the MidNite E-panel. This is a 4.2 kW split phase inverter. 
>>> Brad
>>> AEE Solar
>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Allan Sindelar
>>> al...@sindelarsolar.com
>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
>>> 505 780-2738 cell
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>> ___
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