Re: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Outback FXR inverters has a three phase option, Solark can also do this.
Delta has 125 k 480 vac unit also


On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:12 AM Jay  wrote:

> Hi Christopher
>
> I’m not sure what power your looking for.
>
> Try
>
> https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter
>
> There are others too
>
> None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208
>
> Jay
>
> On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer 
> wrote:
>
> 
> G'day All,
>
> I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter
> manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you
> know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise,
> that would be extremely helpful.
>
> Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's,
> Christopher-
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
>  ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
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Re: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences

[Mac Lewis]

I would look closely at Growatt.

 One thing easy to overlook, with 48V batteries especially, is how
difficult it is to have BOS components that are UL listed on the DC side.
This is an advantage of the cluster topology as opposed to a central
inverter topology. There are some good custom options for current >1000A
but it depends on the AHJ.

Let us know where you end up in this.

Thanks



On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 9:04 AM Jerry Shafer  wrote:

> Wrenches
> Outback FXR inverters has a three phase option, Solark can also do this.
> Delta has 125 k 480 vac unit also
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:12 AM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Hi Christopher
>>
>> I’m not sure what power your looking for.
>>
>> Try
>>
>> https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter
>>
>> There are others too
>>
>> None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> G'day All,
>>
>> I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter
>> manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you
>> know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise,
>> that would be extremely helpful.
>>
>> Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's,
>> Christopher-
>>
>> Chris Schaefer’s
>> 
>>
>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
>>  ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
>> *
>>
>>
>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
>> willing to work and give to those who would not."
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
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>>
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>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings???

[William Miller]

Jeremy:



Good question.  I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof
rain-proofing relies on gravity.  This is the concept invented by the first
roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology progressed.



When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What happens
when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the roofing
shingles?  This problem alone is a deal killer.  I am sure lesser
installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk.



Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are not
nearly as reliable as gravity.  Even the best caulk degrades with time,
temperature and UV.  Roofing materials crack and become brittle and
powdery.  Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp roof and
crazy on roofs a year or more old.



We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings???



I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the racking
manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp roofs?  We
have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success.  I especially like
the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not rely on
sealant.  I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket flashing.
There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the marketplace and
it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of time and I wonder
what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this.



I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a sealed
L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with a lot
of opposition from the roofing industry.  Just interested to hear what you
guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably dry
attachments?


Best Regards,
Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
MWBE Certified
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings???

[Jeremy Coxon]

William you and I think a lot alike.  I had a job today where “the owner was 
told by a roofing company that those solar panels are making my roof leak”.  
This was on an 11 yr old install over new shingles.  We used flashings and 
added flashing stock anywhere that was close to a shingle seam (just like 
always).  So instead of fighting the battle we scheduled to show up at the same 
time as the roofer (one of the top 2 roofers in town and the same company that 
laid the roof 11yrs ago).  Did the leak checks, ID’d the location, lifted 
panels and let them go to town.  Turns out that the leak was 3’ away from any 
of our penetrations and the leak was at a shingle nail.  The cause according to 
the roofers (lead guy and manager) was water running sideways from the adjacent 
gap between shingles.  Their comment-“we see this all the time on these 3D 
shingles on roofs that don’t have solar panels”.  Apparently, “if leaves build 
up or ice dams up then water shoots sideways and after a while the nail holes 
leak”.  Their warranty -2 years!  So, there ya go.  Crisis averted, solar not 
the culprit.  But can you imagine how that would have turned out if we had NOT 
used flashings?

We will not be using unflashed attachments.  Besides, what happens when the new 
guy misses the rafter or what happens when the rafter spacing changes (we see 
that a LOT)?  Sealed L feet are a huge step backwards IMO.

The problem now though is the flashings that I know work (SnapNRack old style) 
are no longer available.  It seems that all the new ones rely on a cone with 
EPDM seal and washered lags for sealing.  Hence the initial reason for this 
post- what are you guys using?

Jeremy Coxon NABCEP 
Certified MWBE

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:57 PM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> 
> Jeremy:
>  
> Good question.  I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof 
> rain-proofing relies on gravity.  This is the concept invented by the first 
> roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology progressed. 
>  
> When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What happens when 
> the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the roofing shingles?  
> This problem alone is a deal killer.  I am sure lesser installers will 
> attempt to fill the seam with caulk. 
>  
> Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are not nearly 
> as reliable as gravity.  Even the best caulk degrades with time, temperature 
> and UV.  Roofing materials crack and become brittle and powdery.  Applying 
> the new technology is iffy with a new comp roof and crazy on roofs a year or 
> more old.
>  
> We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs.
>  
> William
>  
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
> CA Lic. 773985
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings???
>  
> I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the racking 
> manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp roofs?  We 
> have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success.  I especially like the 
> fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not rely on sealant.  I 
> am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket flashing.  There are a 
> number of these raised cone flashings in the marketplace and it’s my 
> experience that they don’t hold up to the test of time and I wonder what the 
> roofing manufacturers have to say about this.
>  
> I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a sealed 
> L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with a lot of 
> opposition from the roofing industry.  Just interested to hear what you guys 
> are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably dry attachments?  
> 
> Best Regards,
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
> MWBE Certified
>  
> 
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings???

[frenergy]

It would be interesting to know if there is some collaboration between 
the rack manufacturers offering these new EPDM or peel and stick legs/ 
cones/attachment points and roof shingle manufacturers, and what that 
conversation is like.


Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net

On 4/22/2021 3:47 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote:
William you and I think a lot alike.  I had a job today where “the 
owner was told by a roofing company that those solar panels are making 
my roof leak”.  This was on an 11 yr old install over new shingles. 
 We used flashings and added flashing stock anywhere that was close to 
a shingle seam (just like always).  So instead of fighting the battle 
we scheduled to show up at the same time as the roofer (one of the top 
2 roofers in town and the same company that laid the roof 11yrs ago). 
 Did the leak checks, ID’d the location, lifted panels and let them go 
to town.  Turns out that the leak was 3’ away from any of our 
penetrations and the leak was at a shingle nail.  The cause according 
to the roofers (lead guy and manager) was water running sideways from 
the adjacent gap between shingles.  Their comment-“we see this all the 
time on these 3D shingles on roofs that don’t have solar panels”. 
 Apparently, “if leaves build up or ice dams up then water shoots 
sideways and after a while the nail holes leak”.  Their warranty -2 
years!  So, there ya go.  Crisis averted, solar not the culprit.  But 
can you imagine how that would have turned out if we had NOT used 
flashings?


We will not be using unflashed attachments.  Besides, what happens 
when the new guy misses the rafter or what happens when the rafter 
spacing changes (we see that a LOT)?  Sealed L feet are a huge step 
backwards IMO.


The problem now though is the flashings that I know work (SnapNRack 
old style) are no longer available.  It seems that all the new ones 
rely on a cone with EPDM seal and washered lags for sealing.  Hence 
the initial reason for this post- what are you guys using?


Jeremy Coxon NABCEP
Certified MWBE

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:57 PM, William Miller  
wrote:




Jeremy:

Good question.  I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof 
rain-proofing relies on gravity.  This is the concept invented by the 
first roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology 
progressed.


When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What 
happens when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the 
roofing shingles? This problem alone is a deal killer.  I am sure 
lesser installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk.


Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are 
not nearly as reliable as gravity. Even the best caulk degrades with 
time, temperature and UV.  Roofing materials crack and become brittle 
and powdery.  Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp 
roof and crazy on roofs a year or more old.


We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs.

William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] *On Behalf Of 
*Jeremy Coxon

*Sent:* Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings???

I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the 
racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for 
asphalt/comp roofs?  We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much 
success.  I especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully 
flashed and do not rely on sealant.  I am NOT a fan of their new 
raised cone/epdm gasket flashing.  There are a number of these raised 
cone flashings in the marketplace and it’s my experience that they 
don’t hold up to the test of time and I wonder what the roofing 
manufacturers have to say about this.


I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a 
sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met 
with a lot of opposition from the roofing industry.  Just interested 
to hear what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs 
for reliably dry attachments?



Best Regards,
Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
MWBE Certified



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Lis

Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right?

[Jay]

Yes they are. 

Their rating is based on wire size, number of strands, material, insulation 
thickness. 

Insulation material isn’t specified. 

Jay 

Peltz power. 

> On Apr 22, 2021, at 7:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I found this gem today while tracking down an AFCI fault. This was one of 
> three strings connected to a Sunny Boy 9000TL. I was surprised at how rare 
> and intermittent the AFCI fault was. The THWN pulled out effortlessly. 
> 
> I was surprised because usually I spend many hours tracking down AFCI 
> problems only to find out it's a bad inverter. 
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
> <20210422_123715-resized-1024.jpg>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings???

[William Miller]

Jeremy:



It is amazing how we all exist in parallel universes.  We have had
IDENTICAL experiences with leak claims and handled them EXACTLY as you
did:  We meet with the roofer of choice and dissect the patient as a team.
Our policy is:  If we caused the leak, we pay for everything.  If we did
not cause the leak, we pay for nothing.



In almost 40 years of solar contracting we have caused exactly one leak.  I
intend to keep it to that number.  We have to take roofing issues seriously
and not let the manufacturer’s bean counters dictate how we do what we know
how to do.  The new hardware is crap, in my opinion.



Rant off…



You bring up three important points:



1.   Flashings are essential.

2.   Valleys need to have a gap between shingles or tiles and kept clear of
debris.

3.   Rain water can and will travel sideways.



Thank you so much for bringing up this scenario.  It is a huge reality
check for those of us that poke holes in roofs for a living.  Our liability
exposure is huge.



What will we be using?  I don’t know.  Snap-N-Rack has been marginalizing
their product line for a while now, so I guess I am shopping for a new
direction.  It’s a shame because I have a big inventory of SNR parts and
pieces.  I am as keen as you are to learn where to turn for racking.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon
*Sent:* Thursday, April 22, 2021 3:48 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings???



William you and I think a lot alike.  I had a job today where “the owner
was told by a roofing company that those solar panels are making my roof
leak”.  This was on an 11 yr old install over new shingles.  We used
flashings and added flashing stock anywhere that was close to a shingle
seam (just like always).  So instead of fighting the battle we scheduled to
show up at the same time as the roofer (one of the top 2 roofers in town
and the same company that laid the roof 11yrs ago).  Did the leak checks,
ID’d the location, lifted panels and let them go to town.  Turns out that
the leak was 3’ away from any of our penetrations and the leak was at a
shingle nail.  The cause according to the roofers (lead guy and manager)
was water running sideways from the adjacent gap between shingles.  Their
comment-“we see this all the time on these 3D shingles on roofs that don’t
have solar panels”.  Apparently, “if leaves build up or ice dams up then
water shoots sideways and after a while the nail holes leak”.  Their
warranty -2 years!  So, there ya go.  Crisis averted, solar not the
culprit.  But can you imagine how that would have turned out if we had NOT
used flashings?



We will not be using unflashed attachments.  Besides, what happens when the
new guy misses the rafter or what happens when the rafter spacing changes
(we see that a LOT)?  Sealed L feet are a huge step backwards IMO.



The problem now though is the flashings that I know work (SnapNRack old
style) are no longer available.  It seems that all the new ones rely on a
cone with EPDM seal and washered lags for sealing.  Hence the initial
reason for this post- what are you guys using?



Jeremy Coxon NABCEP

Certified MWBE



Sent from my iPhone



On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:57 PM, William Miller  wrote:



Jeremy:



Good question.  I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof
rain-proofing relies on gravity.  This is the concept invented by the first
roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology progressed.



When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What happens
when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the roofing
shingles?  This problem alone is a deal killer.  I am sure lesser
installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk.



Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are not
nearly as reliable as gravity.  Even the best caulk degrades with time,
temperature and UV.  Roofing materials crack and become brittle and
powdery.  Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp roof and
crazy on roofs a year or more old.



We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings???



I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the racking
manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp roofs?  We
have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success.  I especially like
the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not rely on
sealant.  I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm