Re: [RE-wrenches] Solis inverters

[David Katz]

I have used 4 of the 3.6 kw and 4 kw units. They have all worked
flawlessly.
They have been well vetted by Sunrun.
David

On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jay  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Are there any comments about Solis inverters?
>
> Specifically the 10kw single phase?
>
> GINLONG, SOLIS-1P10K-4G-US-SA2-NE,
>
> Thanks
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

[Martin Herzfeld]

There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety?

1.  This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities
and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here:
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr=

2.  In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with
traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter
NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to *reduce the
shock hazard *- for *emergency responders* or *firefighters? (NEC 2020).*
However, I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and
workmanship issues.

On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the
construction industry.

All the best,

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified
Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC
10037
Contract Training Provider (CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, C10, D56,
D31, C-7 - Since 2004
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance,
Instrumentation

Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors
#7035507 - Since 2006
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy
Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider


On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM  wrote:

>
> I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters.
> Anecdotal problems are not data.
>
> The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown
> requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't.
>
> Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by
> using string inverters.
> ---
>
>
>
>
> On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires."
>
> Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it
> has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC
> conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or
> microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily
> reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce
> severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that.
> We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS.
>
> As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is
> failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking
> repair bill.
>
> I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the
> wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will.
> Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs
> Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in
> Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC
> power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM 
> wrote:
>
> Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow
> firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays.
> This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources.
>
> As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence
> that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources.
> A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak,
> bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket.
>
> Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available.
> Does one size fit all?
>
> Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW,
> with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be
> excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings
> with ample roof area open for ventilation?
>
> Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen
> the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for
> non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear.
>
> The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or
> no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module
> level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed
> unless statically significant danger can be demonstrated.
>
> Drake
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both
> commercial and residential, and

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

[drake . chamberlin]

Interestingly enough, the data on the link [9] provided shows accidents
from gas explosions, falls, health problems and  industrial injuries.
None of these incidents could have been prevented by module level power
electronics. This is typical of the data that I've seen so far. 


---

On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote:

There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? 

1.  This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: 
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr= 

2.  In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to reduce the shock hazard - for _emergency responders_ or _firefighters? (NEC 2020)._  However, I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and workmanship issues.  

On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the construction industry.  

All the best, 


Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master 
Trainer (tm) for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037
Contract Training Provider (CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, C10, D56, 
D31, C-7 - Since 2004
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation

Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections 
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30

OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors  
#7035507 - Since 2006
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy 
Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM  wrote: 

I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data. 

The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't.  

Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by using string inverters. 
--- 

On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: 


"Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires."

Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. We're talking about risk mitigation when it comes to RS.  

As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is failure at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking repair bill. 

I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC power. But AC distribution wins for safety at various scales. 

On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM  wrote: 

Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. 

As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence that shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. A fire from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, bad wiring or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket. 

Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. Does one size fit all? 

Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be excepted from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings with ample roof area open for ventilation?   

Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen the harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear. 

The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or no maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module level electronics. Dependable string inverter systems shoul

Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox

[Dave Tedeyan]

Is the 5kw limit and no surge capacity for the backed up AC loads only when
operating off grid? If you occasionally trip a breaker during the
relatively rare times when the grid is out (around here at least) it is not
such a big deal. But if you had to deal with that daily, you would have to
be way more conservative as to what loads are allowed to be backed up.

Also, is there an inverter bypass built into the BOS enclosure, or do you
need to wire up a separate one in case of inverter failure.

Cheers,
Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
Certified B-Corporation since 2013


On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:24 PM  wrote:

> I'm finding the SkyBox to be reliable hardware, if you don't need big
> surge capability.
> But the software is still in flux. I have had to reject software updates
> that froze the system, going back to the previous version to bring it back
> again.
>
> One issue is that AC coupling does not work with multiple Skyboxen, unlike
> with older Radians.
> Another huge problem that seems to be software related is that dual
> SkyBoxen with different sized solar arrays discharge their battery banks at
> different rates. This becomes an issue in multiple day grid outages like we
> now expect in north CA fire season.  You'd think the SkyBox master-slave
> relationship would allow them to coordinate, but this causes the one with a
> smaller solar array to run down it's battery sooner, faulting the system
> causing a complete shutdown of both SkyBoxen.
> OutBack says they are not fixing this, so I'm looking at SolArk for
> systems larger than 5 kW.
>
> Don Barch
> Energy Solar
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124
> From: re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Mon, May 04, 2020 2:40 pm
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..."
>
>
> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the
> Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines
> from the quoted message.
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Skybox (Dave Tedeyan)
> 2. Re: Skybox (Jerry Shafer)
> 3. Re: Skybox (jay)
> 4. Re: Skybox (penobscotso...@midmaine.com)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 21:32:38 -0400
> From: Dave Tedeyan 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone
> interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if
> they are reliable.
>
> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter,
> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for
> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these?
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
>
> Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200503/bd47522b/attachment-0001.html>
> ;
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:46:09 -0700
> From: Jerry Shafer 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dave
> I have used the radian and started using the skybox, it works well and is
> as simple as it gets to install. My personal experience with fronius is not
> good with there grid tie units. Outback has been around in the off grid
> environment and is my go to, but hey that's just me
> Jerry
>
> On Sun, May 3, 2020, 6:32 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have
> > someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with
> them
> > and if they are reliable.
> >
> > Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter,
> > which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for
> > purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox

[don]

Hi DaveThe 5kW limit is the inverter power rating; that's all the solar or battery power it can generate. Asking for more than that won't trip a breaker, the voltage will start to sag. The grid breaker is 50 amps, so when the grid is present the loads should be able to draw (50 amps) x (240 volts) = 12 kWatts from the grid, not from the inverter itself.Yes you have to be conservative as to how many loads can be backed up. Typically that's not the whole house; critical loads are moved to a new critical load sub panel. The SkyBox does not have a built in bypass, that must be added if it is needed. Don BarchEnergy Solar


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox
From: Dave Tedeyan 
Date: Wed, May 06, 2020 6:30 pm
To: d...@energysolarnow.com
Cc: "re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"


Is the 5kw limit and no surge capacity for the backed up AC loads only when operating off grid? If you occasionally trip a breaker during the relatively rare times when the grid is out (around here at least) it is not such a big deal. But if you had to deal with that daily, you would have to be way more conservative as to what loads are allowed to be backed up.Also, is there an inverter bypass built into the BOS enclosure, or do you need to wire up a separate one in case of inverter failure.Cheers, DaveDave Tedeyan, PESenior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119www.taitem.comSolar • Sustainability • Energy • DesignCertified B-Corporation since 2013On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:24 PM  wrote:I'm finding the SkyBox to be reliable hardware, if you don't need big surge capability. But the software is still in flux. I have had to reject software updates that froze the system, going back to the previous version to bring it back again. One issue is that AC coupling does not work with multiple Skyboxen, unlike with older Radians. Another huge problem that seems to be software related is that dual SkyBoxen with different sized solar arrays discharge their battery banks at different rates. This becomes an issue in multiple day grid outages like we now expect in north CA fire season.  You'd think the SkyBox master-slave relationship would allow them to coordinate, but this causes the one with a smaller solar array to run down it's battery sooner, faulting the system causing a complete shutdown of both SkyBoxen. OutBack says they are not fixing this, so I'm looking at SolArk for systems larger than 5 kW. Don BarchEnergy Solar    Original Message  Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124 From: re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Mon, May 04, 2020 2:40 pm To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org  You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org  When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..."   When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message.   Today's Topics:  1. Skybox (Dave Tedeyan) 2. Re: Skybox (Jerry Shafer) 3. Re: Skybox (jay) 4. Re: Skybox (penobscotso...@midmaine.com)   --  Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 21:32:38 -0400 From: Dave Tedeyan  To: RE-wrenches  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox Message-ID:  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"  Hi All,  Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if they are reliable.  Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter, which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these?  Cheers, Dave  *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC  110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com  Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ;  --  Message: 2 Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:46:09 -0700 From: Jerry Shafer  To: RE-wrenches 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox

[Jerry Shafer]

The skybox under grid tie operation is all pass through, the inverter can
be both AC and DC coupled but in back up mode it is limited
Jerry

On Wed, May 6, 2020, 6:31 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Is the 5kw limit and no surge capacity for the backed up AC loads only
> when operating off grid? If you occasionally trip a breaker during the
> relatively rare times when the grid is out (around here at least) it is not
> such a big deal. But if you had to deal with that daily, you would have to
> be way more conservative as to what loads are allowed to be backed up.
>
> Also, is there an inverter bypass built into the BOS enclosure, or do you
> need to wire up a separate one in case of inverter failure.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>
>
> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:24 PM  wrote:
>
>> I'm finding the SkyBox to be reliable hardware, if you don't need big
>> surge capability.
>> But the software is still in flux. I have had to reject software updates
>> that froze the system, going back to the previous version to bring it back
>> again.
>>
>> One issue is that AC coupling does not work with multiple Skyboxen,
>> unlike with older Radians.
>> Another huge problem that seems to be software related is that dual
>> SkyBoxen with different sized solar arrays discharge their battery banks at
>> different rates. This becomes an issue in multiple day grid outages like we
>> now expect in north CA fire season.  You'd think the SkyBox master-slave
>> relationship would allow them to coordinate, but this causes the one with a
>> smaller solar array to run down it's battery sooner, faulting the system
>> causing a complete shutdown of both SkyBoxen.
>> OutBack says they are not fixing this, so I'm looking at SolArk for
>> systems larger than 5 kW.
>>
>> Don Barch
>> Energy Solar
>>
>>
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124
>> From: re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> Date: Mon, May 04, 2020 2:40 pm
>> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..."
>>
>>
>> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the
>> Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines
>> from the quoted message.
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Skybox (Dave Tedeyan)
>> 2. Re: Skybox (Jerry Shafer)
>> 3. Re: Skybox (jay)
>> 4. Re: Skybox (penobscotso...@midmaine.com)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 21:32:38 -0400
>> From: Dave Tedeyan 
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox
>> Message-ID:
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have
>> someone
>> interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if
>> they are reliable.
>>
>> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter,
>> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for
>> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>>
>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
>> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119
>> www.taitem.com
>>
>> Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design
>> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20200503/bd47522b/attachment-0001.html>
>> ;
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:46:09 -0700
>> From: Jerry Shafer 
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox
>> Message-ID:
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Dave
>> I have used the radian and started using the skybox, it works well and is
>> as simple as it gets to install. My personal experience with fronius is
>> not
>> good with there grid tie units. Outback has been around in the off grid
>> environment and is my go to, but hey that's just me
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Sun, May 3, 2020, 6:32 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>>
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > Does anyone have experience using Ou

Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox

[Jay]

5 kva max, no surge regardless of use. 

A rather large shortcoming for a battery inverter. 

I’m guessing they were thinking more of battery sell mode vs powering loads 
directly, but just a guess. 

Jay

Peltz power 



> On May 6, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
> 
> 
> Is the 5kw limit and no surge capacity for the backed up AC loads only when 
> operating off grid? If you occasionally trip a breaker during the relatively 
> rare times when the grid is out (around here at least) it is not such a big 
> deal. But if you had to deal with that daily, you would have to be way more 
> conservative as to what loads are allowed to be backed up.
> 
> Also, is there an inverter bypass built into the BOS enclosure, or do you 
> need to wire up a separate one in case of inverter failure.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Dave
> 
> Dave Tedeyan, PE
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
> 
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
> 
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
> 
> 
>> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:24 PM  wrote:
>> I'm finding the SkyBox to be reliable hardware, if you don't need big surge 
>> capability.
>> But the software is still in flux. I have had to reject software updates 
>> that froze the system, going back to the previous version to bring it back 
>> again.
>> 
>> One issue is that AC coupling does not work with multiple Skyboxen, unlike 
>> with older Radians.
>> Another huge problem that seems to be software related is that dual SkyBoxen 
>> with different sized solar arrays discharge their battery banks at different 
>> rates. This becomes an issue in multiple day grid outages like we now expect 
>> in north CA fire season.  You'd think the SkyBox master-slave relationship 
>> would allow them to coordinate, but this causes the one with a smaller solar 
>> array to run down it's battery sooner, faulting the system causing a 
>> complete shutdown of both SkyBoxen.
>> OutBack says they are not fixing this, so I'm looking at SolArk for systems 
>> larger than 5 kW.
>> 
>> Don Barch
>> Energy Solar
>> 
>> 
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 124
>> From: re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> Date: Mon, May 04, 2020 2:40 pm
>> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>> 1. Skybox (Dave Tedeyan)
>> 2. Re: Skybox (Jerry Shafer)
>> 3. Re: Skybox (jay)
>> 4. Re: Skybox (penobscotso...@midmaine.com)
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 21:32:38 -0400
>> From: Dave Tedeyan 
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox
>> Message-ID:
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> Does anyone have experience using Outback's Skybox inverter? I have someone
>> interested and am curious to hear if people have had luck with them and if
>> they are reliable.
>> 
>> Also, I've been seeing promo material for Fronius' Gen 24 Plus inverter,
>> which looks like it fills the same niche. Are those even available for
>> purchase yet? If so, does anyone have experience with these?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>> 
>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>> 
>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
>> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119
>> www.taitem.com
>> 
>> Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design
>> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: 
>> ;
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:46:09 -0700
>> From: Jerry Shafer 
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Skybox
>> Message-ID:
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> Dave
>> I have used the radian and started using the skybox, it works well and is
>> as simple as it gets to install. My personal experience with fronius is not
>> good with there grid tie units. Outback has been around in the off grid
>> environment and is my go to, but hey that's just me
>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

[Ray]

Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and parts 
to meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which increases, not 
decreases the #1 worker safety danger: Falls. Please correct me if I 
have somehow misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making installers safer 
based on OSHA information provided.   Also after installation, which 
system is more likely to require workers to return to work on the roof, 
pulling up modules, trying to find problem equipment?  More connections 
is More safe?  Really?  I haven't had to climb back up on the roof on 
any of my older, lower voltage off grid work in almost a decade.


Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple subarrays, 
higher voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions as have been 
mentioned already.  We are endangering ourselves and our employees 
needlessly, to comply with 690.12.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:


Interestingly enough, the data on the link 
 provided 
shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and  
industrial injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented 
by module level power electronics. This is typical of the data that 
I've seen so far.


---


On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote:


There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety?
1.  This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA 
Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here:

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr=
2.  In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with 
traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit 
interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - 
to _reduce the shock hazard _- for /emergency responders/ or 
/firefighters? (NEC 2020)./  However, I've observed thermal events in 
the panelboard with plans and workmanship issues.
On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the 
construction industry.

All the best,

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified 
Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional 
#IREC 10037

Contract Training Provider (CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782  C46, C10, 
D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, 
Instrumentation


Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical 
Inspectors  #7035507 - Since 2006
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy 
Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider


On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM > wrote:



I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string
inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data.
The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid
shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other
cases it doesn't.
Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be
built by using string inverters.
---


On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote:

"Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires."

Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE,
I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire risk.
As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out of
control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter
architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily
reduce fire risk within the array, it still has the potential
to reduce severity and spread. Nothing is going to prevent
all fires. I get that. We're talking about risk mitigation
when it comes to RS.
As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable
feature is failure at least once in the module lifetime,
accompanied by a shocking repair bill.
I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing
is on the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable,
disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison is going to
lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live less
than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers,