Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[Drake]

Daniel,

That sounds like an intriguing technology, much 
along the lines of an air to air heat exchanger. 
Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems 
could keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.


Drake


At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"
Content-Language: en-us

Drake,

Have you or the client looked into the 
drainwater heat recovery units? They make both a 
vertical and horizontal mounted version. They 
just help recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.


My understanding is that economically they are 
barely past the breakeven point when considering 
offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the 
benchmark, the economics would be better. If 
somehow this is off grid, then I’d say it’s a 
home run. (Hopefully though this is not an all-electric off-grid building.)


The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is 
that you can get by with a smaller unit, with a 
smaller heating element to perform the same 
task, OR you can get much longer showers from 
the same sized unit. Depending on the clients 
goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation.


Here are two brand names that I know of.
Vertical mount: renewability
Horizontal mount: ecodrain

I have not used these products, so I cannot 
endorse any of them, just though it may be worth consideration.


With Regards,

Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

From: RE-wrenches 
 On Behalf Of Drake

Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

This discussion has been a great help. The house 
is built and the plumbing is in, but could be 
modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. 
I think we need a different water heating strategy.


Thank you all!

Drake



At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
Content-Language: en-US

This is what I came up with:

The calculation is Q = mcp delta T

Water Temp out =Â  120

Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F?

delta T = 70F

m =  mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for 
this. 20gals per person per day = 20 gallons x 
8.34 lbs/gallon =Â  167lbs/day/person


cp =Â  1 BTU/lb-degree F

Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person

Divide this by the efficiency of the water 
heating system (I'll assume = .86)Â  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day


convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month

I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable.

Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with 
@ 400kWh per month. They approached it another way with assuming run times.


https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI 




Chris




On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote:

Barton makes a good point with regards to the 
incoming ground water temperature and the amount 
of heat required to bring it up to shower temp. 
 My recollection is that ASHRAE states 
20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then 
15gpd or 12gpd thereafter.  However those rates 
vary wildly with consumers, from those that 
never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3 
showers a day.  In the northeast water heating 
can be up to 19% of the total household energy 
load for the year.  Also, I would recommend the 
air source heat pump water heaters if you have 
significant humidity or an on demand 
unit.  Water tanks are typically under 
insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses.

Â
Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Spirit Solar Inc.
(413) 734-1456
Â
Â
Â
From: Barton Churchill 
[mailto:bar...@solarips.com]

Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person
Â
You first need to know your ground temperature. 
Then figure a delta to 100 or so degrees. Most 
but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers 
are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a 
calculator online to calculate how many Btus are 
required to raise water temp for your delta per 
gallon. Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good.Â


On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, 
< 
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Is there a g

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[Barton Churchill]

Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are
the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about
$1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, and
anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all
pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a
pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved
and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think
for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly
vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more
energy.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake  wrote:

> Daniel,
>
> That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an air
> to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems could
> keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.
>
> Drake
>
>
> At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:
>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>  boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"
> Content-Language: en-us
>
>
> Drake,
>
> Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units?
> They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help
> recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.
>
> My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven
> point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the
> benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, then
> I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an all-electric
> off-grid building.)
>
> The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with a
> smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, OR
> you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on the
> clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation.
>
> Here are two brand names that I know of.
> Vertical mount: renewability
> Horizontal mount: ecodrain
>
> I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just
> though it may be worth consideration.
>
> With Regards,
>
> Daniel Young,
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Drake
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person
>
> This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the plumbing
> is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I
> think we need a different water heating strategy.
>
> Thank you all!
>
> Drake
>
>
>
> At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:
>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>  boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
> Content-Language: en-US
>
> This is what I came up with:
>
> The calculation is Q = mcp delta T
>
> Water Temp out =Â  120
>
> Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F?
>
> delta T = 70F
>
> m =  mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per person
> per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =Â  167lbs/day/person
>
> cp =Â  1 BTU/lb-degree F
>
> Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person
>
> Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume =
> .86)Â  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day
>
> convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month
>
> I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable.
>
> Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They
> approached it another way with assuming run times.
>
> https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=
> Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=
> electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.
> 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.
> 0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..
> 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote:
>
> Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water
> temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower temp.
> Â My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first 2
> people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter.  However those rates vary wildly
> with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs
> 3 showers a day.  In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of the
> total household energy load for the year.  Also, I would recommend the air
> source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on
> demand unit.  Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose
> 2kWh/day in standby losses.
> Â
> Mike Kocsmiersky
> Principal
> Spirit Solar Inc.
> (413) 734-1456
> Â
> Â
> Â
> From: Barton Churchill [mailto:bar...@solarips.com ]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] El

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to
charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always
the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water
heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm.

An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop
if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water
with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to
add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground
source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely
efficient mini split air source pumps.

I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows
one to have more options.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are
> the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about
> $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe,
> and
> anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all
> pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a
> pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved
> and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think
> for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly
> vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more
> energy.
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake
> > wrote:
>
>> Daniel,
>>
>> That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an
>> air
>> to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems
>> could
>> keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.
>>
>> Drake
>>
>>
>> At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:
>>
>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>  boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"
>> Content-Language: en-us
>>
>>
>> Drake,
>>
>> Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units?
>> They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help
>> recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.
>>
>> My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven
>> point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the
>> benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid,
>> then
>> I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an
>> all-electric
>> off-grid building.)
>>
>> The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with
>> a
>> smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task,
>> OR
>> you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on
>> the
>> clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation.
>>
>> Here are two brand names that I know of.
>> Vertical mount: renewability
>> Horizontal mount: ecodrain
>>
>> I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just
>> though it may be worth consideration.
>>
>> With Regards,
>>
>> Daniel Young,
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
>> Behalf Of *Drake
>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches 
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person
>>
>> This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the
>> plumbing
>> is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I
>> think we need a different water heating strategy.
>>
>> Thank you all!
>>
>> Drake
>>
>>
>>
>> At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:
>>
>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>  boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
>> Content-Language: en-US
>>
>> This is what I came up with:
>>
>> The calculation is Q = mcp delta T
>>
>> Water Temp out =Â  120
>>
>> Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F?
>>
>> delta T = 70F
>>
>> m =  mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per
>> person
>> per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =Â  167lbs/day/person
>>
>> cp =Â  1 BTU/lb-degree F
>>
>> Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person
>>
>> Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume =
>> .86)Â  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day
>>
>> convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120
>> kWh/month
>>
>> I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable.
>>
>> Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They
>> approached it another way with assuming run times.
>>
>> https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=
>> Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=
>> electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.
>> 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.
>> 0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[cwarfel]

What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them 
described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes 
what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any info? Thanks, Chris



On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to
charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always
the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water
heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm.

An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop
if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water
with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to
add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground
source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely
efficient mini split air source pumps.

I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows
one to have more options.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are
the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about
$1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe,
and
anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all
pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a
pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved
and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think
for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly
vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more
energy.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake

wrote:
Daniel,

That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an
air
to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems
could
keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.

Drake


At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
  boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"
Content-Language: en-us


Drake,

Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units?
They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help
recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.

My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven
point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the
benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid,
then
I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an
all-electric
off-grid building.)

The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with
a
smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task,
OR
you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on
the
clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation.

Here are two brand names that I know of.
Vertical mount: renewability
Horizontal mount: ecodrain

I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just
though it may be worth consideration.

With Regards,

Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On
Behalf Of *Drake
*Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the
plumbing
is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I
think we need a different water heating strategy.

Thank you all!

Drake



At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
  boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
Content-Language: en-US

This is what I came up with:

The calculation is Q = mcp delta T

Water Temp out =Â  120

Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F?

delta T = 70F

m =  mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per
person
per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =Â  167lbs/day/person

cp =Â  1 BTU/lb-degree F

Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person

Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume =
.86)Â  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day

convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120
kWh/month

I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable.

Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They
approached it another way with assuming run times.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=
Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=
electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.
33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.
0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..
0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Chris,

For Offgrid with minerals in the well water, getting the right flow, the
maintenance that is just not there with a tank heater. Tankless are great
for many but if you do add an open loop solar water panel, you need a
tank Just not worth it in places like the south west where there is
abundant sunshine. Offgrid in remote places where service is questionable
or unavailable, we go with the most reliable. I steer them that way for
other reasons also..

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them
> described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes
> what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any info? Thanks,
> Chris
>
>
> On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>> And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to
>> charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always
>> the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water
>> heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm.
>>
>> An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop
>> if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating
>> water
>> with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to
>> add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground
>> source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on
>> extremely
>> efficient mini split air source pumps.
>>
>> I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows
>> one to have more options.
>>
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>> text 209 813 0060
>>
>>> Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient
>>> are
>>> the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for
>>> about
>>> $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe,
>>> and
>>> anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know
>>> all
>>> pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be
>>> a
>>> pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper
>>> involved
>>> and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but
>>> think
>>> for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly
>>> vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more
>>> energy.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake
>>> >>> wrote:
 Daniel,

 That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an
 air
 to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems
 could
 keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.

 Drake


 At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:

 Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
   boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"
 Content-Language: en-us


 Drake,

 Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units?
 They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just
 help
 recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.

 My understanding is that economically they are barely past the
 breakeven
 point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the
 benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid,
 then
 I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not
 an
 all-electric
 off-grid building.)

 The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by
 with
 a
 smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task,
 OR
 you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on
 the
 clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the
 situation.

 Here are two brand names that I know of.
 Vertical mount: renewability
 Horizontal mount: ecodrain

 I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just
 though it may be worth consideration.

 With Regards,

 Daniel Young,
 NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
 Behalf Of *Drake
 *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
 *To:* RE-wrenches 
 *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

 This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the
 plumbing
 is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I
 think we need a different water heating strategy.

 Thank you all!

 Drake



 At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

 Content-Type: multipart/alt

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[cwarfel]

Ah,off grid. I see. That makes sense. I wouldn't use it place of solar, 
but we have used it as part of one. Obviously we have a tank in that 
application. We have a very good propane sales person herewho has sold a 
lot of on demand radiant and hydronic.It's almost twice thecost per BTU 
v oil, but they have done very well on low maintenance claims.



On 3/20/2018 1:58 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

Chris,

For Offgrid with minerals in the well water, getting the right flow, the
maintenance that is just not there with a tank heater. Tankless are great
for many but if you do add an open loop solar water panel, you need a
tank Just not worth it in places like the south west where there is
abundant sunshine. Offgrid in remote places where service is questionable
or unavailable, we go with the most reliable. I steer them that way for
other reasons also..

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them
described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes
what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any info? Thanks,
Chris


On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to
charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always
the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water
heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm.

An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop
if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating
water
with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to
add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground
source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on
extremely
efficient mini split air source pumps.

I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows
one to have more options.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient
are
the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for
about
$1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe,
and
anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know
all
pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be
a
pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper
involved
and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but
think
for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly
vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more
energy.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake

wrote:
Daniel,

That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an
air
to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems
could
keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.

Drake


At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
   boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"
Content-Language: en-us


Drake,

Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units?
They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just
help
recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.

My understanding is that economically they are barely past the
breakeven
point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the
benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid,
then
I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not
an
all-electric
off-grid building.)

The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by
with
a
smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task,
OR
you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on
the
clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the
situation.

Here are two brand names that I know of.
Vertical mount: renewability
Horizontal mount: ecodrain

I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just
though it may be worth consideration.

With Regards,

Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On
Behalf Of *Drake
*Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the
plumbing
is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I
think we need a different water heating strategy.

Thank you all!

Drake



At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
   boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
Content-Language: en-US

This is what I cam

[RE-wrenches] sharp module needed

[jay]

HI All,

If anyone has one or knows where to get a Sharp ND-167U1F?

Please let me know off list

thanks

jay

Peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[Dana]

It used to be that “tankless” water heaters were very sensitive to stable 
temperature production as flows from single handle facets shut down the hot and 
opened the cold flows.

I can fully recommend the Rianai heaters of today as we have 2 in offgrid and 0 
issues. I have family members that have had them in residential homes for 
several years also and 0 issues.

They do require 120 vac & have digital controls. The water temperature is very 
stable & consistent. I have not measured the phantom load but could if someone 
needs to know.

2 thumbs up for Rianai heaters from MHO.

 



Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc. 

C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

NABCEP # 051112-136 
www.solarwork.biz

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
cwarfel
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 11:48 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

 

What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them described 
as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes what they are.  
They are very popular where I live.  Any info? Thanks, Chris

 

On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to
charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always
the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water
heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm.
 
An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop
if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water
with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to
add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground
source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely
efficient mini split air source pumps.
 
I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows
one to have more options.
 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net  
text 209 813 0060
 

Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are
the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about
$1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe,
and
anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all
pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a
pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved
and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think
for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly
vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more
energy.
 
On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> 

wrote:

 

Daniel,
 
That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an
air
to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems
could
keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.
 
Drake
 
 
At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:
 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"
Content-Language: en-us
 
 
Drake,
 
Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units?
They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help
recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.
 
My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven
point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the
benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid,
then
I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an
all-electric
off-grid building.)
 
The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with
a
smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task,
OR
you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on
the
clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation.
 
Here are two brand names that I know of.
Vertical mount: renewability
Horizontal mount: ecodrain
 
I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just
though it may be worth consideration.
 
With Regards,
 
Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
 
*From:* RE-wrenches   
 *On
Behalf Of *Drake
*Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches   

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Elec

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[Ray]

Rianai have 3 major issues when used off grid.

1) The phantom load when I checked was over 30 watts continuous. That's 
over 700 w-hr/ day.


2) They need pure sine wave, and even have trouble on Trace SW 
inverters.  (One system I took over has a separate Exeltech on its own 
battery and AC charger to run the Rianai, since they have Trace 
inverters.  Talk about a waste!)


3) They still have the hard well water scaling issues.

Ray

Remote Solar


On 3/20/18 12:03 PM, Dana wrote:


It used to be that “tankless” water heaters were very sensitive to 
stable temperature production as flows from single handle facets shut 
down the hot and opened the cold flows.


I can fully recommend the Rianai heaters of today as we have 2 in 
offgrid and 0 issues. I have family members that have had them in 
residential homes for several years also and 0 issues.


They do require 120 vac & have digital controls. The water temperature 
is very stable & consistent. I have not measured the phantom load but 
could if someone needs to know.


2 thumbs up for Rianai heaters from MHO.



Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.

*C - 208.721.7003  d...@solarwork.com*

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz 

_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___

*P*Please consider the environment before printing this email.

*From:*RE-wrenches  *On 
Behalf Of *cwarfel

*Sent:* Tuesday, March 20, 2018 11:48 AM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them 
described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that 
describes what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any 
info? Thanks, Chris


On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to

charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always

the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water

heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm.

An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop

if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water

with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to

add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground

source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely

efficient mini split air source pumps.

I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows

one to have more options.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/

e-mailoffgridso...@sti.net 

text 209 813 0060

Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient 
are

the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for 
about

$1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe,

and

anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know 
all

pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be 
a

pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper 
involved

and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think

for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly

vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more

energy.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake

mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>

wrote:

Daniel,

That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of 
an

air

to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems

could

keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.

Drake

At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

  boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"

Content-Language: en-us

Drake,

Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery 
units?

They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just 
help

recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.

My understanding is that economically they are barely past the 
breakeven

point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as 
the

benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off 
grid,

then

I’d say it’s a 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[solar1online]

Ray, Chris, et al,

Both Paloma (185,500 BTU/h) and Bosch (117,000 BTU/h) manufactured
natural draft heaters that used zero electric, just like common tanks.
Because the majority of these units used a standing pilot, they were
castigated by the energy bureaucrat folks in favor of something that
used some electronics to create a spark. Complexity. Then to get the
unit bigger (max ~200,000 BTU/h) for non-boiler applications, a power
vent was added (more complexity) and in due time an electrically
driven gas valve (yet more complexity). To help keep the heater from
freezing when the installation was not done properly, electric ceramic
heaters were added to the heat exchanger to minimize freezing (~300 w
temperature activation). 

The way these non electric natural draft tankless heaters were used in
Europe and Asia was to turn off even the pilot once you were finished
using the water heater (they had the piezo (BBQ style) sparker that
was integrated with the unit as factory equipment). Energy efficient
and simple. There are rare non electric units still available
(sometimes at a premium) if you look hard in the US. Alternatively,
look no further than Canada and Mexico for the same non electric Bosch
models outlawed in the US. The Paloma has been out of production for
some time, so when my remaining new natural gas units are gone, I will
not be able to get any more either. 

Best wishes,
Bill Loesch
314 631 1094

-From: "Ray" 
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: 20-Mar-2018 21:15:19 +
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

Rianai have 3 major issues when used off grid. 

1) The phantom load when I checked was over 30 watts continuous.
That's over 700 w-hr/ day. 

2) They need pure sine wave, and even have trouble on Trace SW
inverters. (One system I took over has a separate Exeltech on its own
battery and AC charger to run the Rianai, since they have Trace
inverters. Talk about a waste!)

3) They still have the hard well water scaling issues. 

Ray 

Remote Solar

  On 3/20/18 12:03 PM, Dana wrote:

It used to be that “tankless” water heaters were very sensitive
to stable temperature production as flows from single handle facets
shut down the hot and opened the cold flows. 

I can fully recommend the Rianai heaters of today as we have 2 in
offgrid and 0 issues. I have family members that have had them in
residential homes for several years also and 0 issues. 

They do require 120 vac & have digital controls. The water
temperature is very stable & consistent. I have not measured the
phantom load but could if someone needs to know. 

2 thumbs up for Rianai heaters from MHO. 





Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc.  

C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com [1] 

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 

NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz [2] 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email. 

FROM: RE-wrenches  [3] ON BEHALF OF cwarfel
 SENT: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 11:48 AM
 TO: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [4]
 SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person   

What are the issues with tankless water heaters? I have heard them
described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that
describes what they are. They are very popular where I live. Any info?
Thanks, Chris 

On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:   

And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to 

charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost
always 

the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water 

heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. 

An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed
loop 

if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating
water 

with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing
to 

add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground 

source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on
extremely 

efficient mini split air source pumps. 

I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it
allows 

one to have more options. 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 

"we go where powerlines don't" 

 [5]http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] 

e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [7] 

text 209 813 0060 

Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most
efficient are 

the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for
about 

$1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper
pipe,