Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions

[David Brearley]

Mark,

Bill Brooks’ rapid shutdown article for SolarPro does a nice job walking 
through the individual subsections of 690.12. 

He also addresses initiation device (type and location), which is not covered 
in the NEC. Here is the relevant text:

What about the rapid-shutdown initiator? NEC 690.12 does not specify where you 
should locate the initiating device or what type of device you must install. 
This lack of detail is intended to provide system integrators and AHJs with the 
flexibility to adapt rapid-shutdown solutions to the complexities of the built 
environment. While the best location for a rapid-shutdown device and the 
required label is typically at or near the service equipment, the fire service 
may have preplanned emergency response tactics for some large commercial or 
industrial buildings that favor a different location. 

One of the simplest ways to initiate rapid shutdown is to set it up to occur 
automatically upon loss of ac power. This is why NEC 2014 does not require a 
specific type of rapid-shutdown initiation device. If you install a 
roof-mounted residential microinverter system or a commercial PV system using 
roof-mounted string inverters located within 10 feet of the array, you do not 
need any special equipment to initiate rapid shutdown; you can accomplish this 
function simply by interrupting utility-supplied power to the inverters. Some 
companies have developed various rapid-shutdown switches, and claim that rapid 
shutdown requires these extra switches. However, you have to install an extra 
rapid-shutdown switch only when you need to turn the array off by some means 
other than loss of utility power, as with battery-backup systems or inverters 
equipped with a daytime backup-power outlet.

NEC 690.12 does not specify how many buttons, switches or movements of the hand 
are allowed to complete rapid shutdown. Ideally, the process should only 
require one action. As written today, however, the language in 690.12 provides 
system integrators and AHJs with the flexibility to consider alternatives. Note 
that if the system design requires more than one action to initiate rapid 
shutdown, the 10-second time limit still applies. Therefore, where systems are 
deployed with more than one initiation device or switch, they should all be in 
close proximity so that emergency personnel can de-energize all of the PV 
system circuits on the building within 10 seconds. Further, labeling must 
clearly identify all of the initiation devices and all of the steps required to 
complete rapid shutdown.

Here’s a link to the complete article: http://bit.ly/1xuDxx7 


I hope this is of some assistance,

David Brearley
Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
Direct: 541.261.6545
Follow us on Twitter: @SolarPro

Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh


> On Feb 3, 2015, at 1:50 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote:
> 
> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
>   re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> 
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
> 
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> 
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> 
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..."
> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: 
> line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the 
> quoted message.
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye)
>   2. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions
>  (Jerry Shafer)
>   3. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye)
>   4. How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye)
>   5. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Glenn Burt)
>   6. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions
>  (Christopher Warfel)
>   7. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye)
>   8. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions
>  (will...@millersolar.com )
>   9. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Jerry Shafer)
>  10. Re: How to isolate the array DC (b...@midnitesolar.com 
> )
> 
> From: Mark Frye mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>>
> To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com , RE-wrenches 
> mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Date: February 2, 2015 at 3:06:39 PM CST
> Reply-To: RE-wr

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions

[Mark Frye]

Thanks David,

This is very helpful.

Mark Frye

On 2/3/2015 12:04 PM, David Brearley wrote:

Mark,

Bill Brooks’ rapid shutdown article for SolarPro does a nice job 
walking through the individual subsections of 690.12.


He also addresses initiation device (type and location), which is not 
covered in the NEC. Here is the relevant text:


*What about the rapid-shutdown initiator?*/ NEC/ 690.12 does not 
specify where you should locate the initiating device or what type of 
device you must install. This lack of detail is intended to provide 
system integrators and AHJs with the flexibility to adapt 
rapid-shutdown solutions to the complexities of the built environment. 
While the best location for a rapid-shutdown device and the required 
label is typically at or near the service equipment, the fire service 
may have preplanned emergency response tactics for some large 
commercial or industrial buildings that favor a different location.


One of the simplest ways to initiate rapid shutdown is to set it up to 
occur automatically upon loss of ac power. This is why /NEC 2014 /does 
not require a specific type of rapid-shutdown initiation device. If 
you install a roof-mounted residential microinverter system or a 
commercial PV system using roof-mounted string inverters located 
within 10 feet of the array, you do not need any special equipment to 
initiate rapid shutdown; you can accomplish this function simply by 
interrupting utility-supplied power to the inverters. Some companies 
have developed various rapid-shutdown switches, and claim that rapid 
shutdown requires these extra switches. However, you have to install 
an extra rapid-shutdown switch only when you need to turn the array 
off by some means other than loss of utility power, as with 
battery-backup systems or inverters equipped with a daytime 
backup-power outlet.


/NEC /690.12 does not specify how many buttons, switches or movements 
of the hand are allowed to complete rapid shutdown. Ideally, the 
process should only require one action. As written today, however, the 
language in 690.12 provides system integrators and AHJs with the 
flexibility to consider alternatives. Note that if the system design 
requires more than one action to initiate rapid shutdown, the 
10-second time limit still applies. Therefore, where systems are 
deployed with more than one initiation device or switch, they should 
all be in close proximity so that emergency personnel can de-energize 
all of the PV system circuits on the building within 10 seconds. 
Further, labeling must clearly identify all of the initiation devices 
and all of the steps required to complete rapid shutdown.


Here’s a link to the complete article: http://bit.ly/1xuDxx7

I hope this is of some assistance,

David Brearley
Senior Technical Editor, /SolarPro/ magazine
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com 


Direct: 541.261.6545
Follow us on Twitter: @SolarPro

Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: 
http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh



On Feb 3, 2015, at 1:50 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 wrote:


Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 



To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org 



You can reach the person managing the list at
re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org 



When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..."
When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the 
Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous 
lines from the quoted message.

Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye)
  2. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions
 (Jerry Shafer)
  3. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye)
  4. How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye)
  5. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Glenn Burt)
  6. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions
 (Christopher Warfel)
  7. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye)
  8. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions
 (will...@millersolar.com )
  9. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Jerry Shafer)
 10. Re: How to isolate the array DC (b...@midnitesolar.com 
)


*From:*Mark Frye >
*To:*glenn.b...@glbcc.com , RE-wrenches 
>

*Date:*February 2, 2015 at 3:06:39 PM CST

Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions

[Phil Undercuffler]

Wrenches,



Allan’s key technical question is “when should I hesitate to replace a 120V
legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit?”  I’ve reviewed the various scenarios
and options with our engineers and tech support team, and the one “watch
out” issue that could potentially cause problems when replacing 120V legacy
inverters with 120/240V replacements, is how the existing inverter bypass
is configured.   This is something that will need to be addressed whether
the old system was 120V only or 120/240V with multiple 120V inverters.



With a 120/240V inverter, the bypass must operate both L1 and L2 poles
simultaneously.   A common practice in the early days of solar was to use a
double pole and single pole breaker combo with a special wiring arrangement
and a mechanical interlock to bypass both input and output for each
individual phase.  As you note these were typically installed in a SqD
QO403 3-pole load center, but I’ve also done a similar arrangement in other
enclosures which could fit QOU breakers.  This worked well enough back when
the Trace 120V inverter was the defacto industry standard, as the two
stacked inverters were really operating as two independent units, 180
degrees out of phase.  However, this type of bypass cannot and should not
be used with a 120/240V inverter.  If you find this type of bypass in the
old system, plan on replacing it with a modern equivalent as part of the
upgrade.



Other issues relating to upgrading the system would be constrained by site
conditions and customer choice – ie, does the current generator have
split-phase output capability, is there an L2 conductor already in the
ground (or room in the conduit) for both the input from the generator and
output to the house, does the customer want to run higher power loads in
the future, perhaps run any water pumps at 240 instead of 120 and reduce
the starting surges and potential flicker.  I can’t think of a situation
where a home wired for 120 can’t be fed with 120/240, although the reverse
is not always the case.



To answer the question regarding what is made where, the vast majority of
our products and inverter lines are manufactured in Bellingham, Washington
or in Suwanee Georgia (now Georgia might be a little foreign to some, but
last I looked it’s still part of the US-of-A).  Every Radian inverter, G
series inverter and Extreme charge controller is made here in Washington
State.  We do have an international manufacturing policy where it makes
strategic sense – solar is booming in the developing world, and some
regions have local content provisions or taxation barriers that require
in-country manufacturing so there are a couple inverter lines such as our
VFX3024E for the Rest of World market which are made in India along with
the FM60 and FM80 charge controllers.  However, isn’t that what we want, US
businesses succeeding in the global market and bringing that business
home?  We don’t have any manufacturing in China, nor is there any plan to
do so – however, I’m going to take a moment on a soapbox here related to
China and solar.  China’s citizens look to the West and want access to a
similar quality of life, and the more they burn dead dinos to get it the
more we are all screwed.  IMHO one of the best things that can happen for
survivability on this planet is for China to strongly embrace renewables.
Global solar market reports show massive deployment of PV throughout China
and Asia at all levels, and I’m OK with that.  Bring it on.



Ray, I’d like to work with you on internet discounters, it’s not our
intention to allow folks to undermine the market and devalue what reputable
installers such as yourself bring to the table.  However, I have to push
back on bashing our technical support team.   David, Katee, Jorge and the
rest of the team  work hard to provide trained and knowledgeable support
for all of our customers, not just the ones that belong to some kind of
loyalty club.  The people answering the phones here have experience on the
manufacturing line, service depot or education in Electrical Engineering,
we’re proud to have a couple Veterans on the crew, and everyone goes
through both our CTP and SEI training classes.  If a couple of hiring
notices in the past have caused you grief I apologize for that, but I
challenge you to give our team another chance.



Peace,



Phil



Philip Undercuffler

Director, Strategic Platforms
OutBack Power Technologies

17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223

360.618.4306 office  |  425.319.2821 mobile

www.outbackpower.com





On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 6:19 AM, Tump  wrote:

> Allan, are you planning on replacing the battery bank as well? If so SMA
> is always first choice, despite their price point.  As with ANY inverter
> you will probably have an issue. As remote as site is, I always consider
> what manufacture really does compensate you and how quickly do they get you
> a replacement.. Hands down SMA. 120 SPh works with the old gen set,
> works well with the Trace

Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions

[Chris Mason]

I can vouch for the Outback Radian tech support. I have installed a Radian
GS8048A based system with MATE3 and OpticsRE in our own home to gain some
familiarity with this system and it is very impressive. I have had some
configuration issues and the technical support people (thanks Katee) have
been very knowledgeable and ready to spend time on the more complex issues.

As someone who does not live in the US, I take a little issue with this
"Buy only American" attitude. You want us to buy your products, movies,
music and games, but you won't consider anyone else's products or allow
anyone else to make anything? America needs to move off that. We're going
to buy the best products on the market regardless of country of
manufacture, and you should be ready to do the same.
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Eaton replacement guts for Sylvania panel

[SunHarvest]

I have a Sylvania/Zinsco changeout to complete and I am interested in using the 
Eaton "panel-interior swap kit". When I went in to my local electrical supply 
house the service tech said, "Huh?" Then he checked and saw only 1 package has 
been sold in the last 3 or so years. Apparently they're not used very 
frequently for Syl/Zin upgrades. Does anyone have any experience with these 
units? (They are a guts swap package where you can leave the Sylvania box in 
the wall, pull out the busbar, and replace it with an Eaton bus and breakers). 
Thanks.

Eric Stikes
Owner, SunHarvest Solar
  CA. Solar Contractor #968280
Founding Director, GoodSun Solar
  CA. Non-profit Corp.
001.530.798.3738 (cell)
www.harvesthesun.com
[message sent from cell phone]
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org