[RE-wrenches] TIGO/ Classic 250 fights?

[dan]

Anyone else having problems with Midnight Classics Flaming out (Literally)? We know they don't play nice with Tigo Optimizers. Wondering if a Midnight SPD might also look like a short to a classic when it clamps. only affected two of the four controllers. Two seemed to be un affected, one tripped off and reset,  Not only did the last one let the smoke out, but went Dali in the process. Painted up the wall and everything.Suggestions? Thanks dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
From: Phil Forest 
Date: Tue, May 20, 2014 1:25 pm
To: RE-wrenches 

Will,No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid shutdown, since we recently switched to using SolarEdge central inverters with optimizer under each module, for roof mounted installs. So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have to enable the arc fault protection when commissioning, ships disabled. Phil ForestSouth Mountain CompanyOn May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White  wrote: Wrenches,   Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.   We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway.     It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.   Thanks, Will   Will White Operations Manager - New England  RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com |  william.wh...@rgsenergy.com            ___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

The Sunny Island has circuitry to protect itself over 56 amps.  I think 
it shuts off.


The 60 amp circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring. Customers 
complain when they cannot
get the full 56 amps from the system and 50 amps is the next nominal 
current breaker below 60 A.


Thanks,
boB


On 7/3/2014 11:09 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:


Yes it is. But since you have to install inverters based on the 
manufacturer's requirements, SMA's instructions trump MidNite's, IMHO.


Since MidNite and SMA worked jointly together to develop those 
E-Panels, I can only assume that either it's an oversight on both of 
their parts, or that SMA is being very conservative on the switch 
rating in their installation manual and "Technical Description", where 
that line I quoted is repeated. This wouldn't surprise me, but if so 
SMA needs to issue a correction.


Maybe boB at MidNite or Steve from SMA will pipe in with some info...

Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] *On Behalf Of *Ray 
Walters

*Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2014 10:18 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit

A 60 amp continuously rated AC breaker is what is actually being used 
in the UL listed E Panel from Midnite.



R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 7/3/2014 9:01 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

Mac,

Be careful with breaker sizing here. The transfer switch in the
SMA SI5048 is only rated for 56A at 120 VAC. From the SI manual:

"The maximum input current allowed on the Sunny Island is 56 A.
Higher input currents must not be connected to the Sunny Island."

To protect that switch properly, you would need to use a 50A
breaker (unless you can find a 55A breaker that fits in your AC
panel). Since most common AC breakers are only rated for 80% duty,
you would need to limit that 50A breaker to a continuous 40A load.
That's more than the max output current of the Fronius 10.0-1,
although it's debatable that the output of a PV inverter is
"continuous". It certainly could be in some situations, especially
with a tracker mount, although even with a fixed array, you could
see max rated output for at least a couple of hours per day.

I agree with the suggestion of putting part of the PV array on a
5kW Sunny Boy, or adding a second Sunny Island and using two Sunny
Boy 5000's. Using two Islands would eliminate the need for a
transformer, and allow for full array power during grid outages.

Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
] *On Behalf Of
*Mac Lewis
*Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2014 9:34 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit

Hi Wrenches,

Jerry, I think you are correct, sma gear all around would be best.
 This will be my recommendation but I am sensitive to this
substantial cost.

Dave, if I add the second Sunny Island, I don't think I will be
throttled back because the transfer relays are rated for 60A.
 This should pass the full current of the output of the Fronius,
which is 41.7A.  My concern is more during backup mode, if the
Sunny Islands could "trick" the Fronius into staying on line.  I
would add either load dump relay control or an AC interrupt relay
to knock the Fronius off-line if the batteries were full, in
addition to the frequency shift control that the Sunny Island offers.

Thanks for the input, I'll shoot for all SMA gear.

Thanks

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Dave Click mailto:davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu>> wrote:

Mac, that Island interconnects with a max 70A 1P breaker (6.7kW
continuous), so unless they have a constant critical load draw or
the Fronius is massively oversized, you probably don't want to AC
couple the Fronius. The 5048 is also able to output a continuous
5000W only when it's cooler than 77F and it derates above that
(4500W at 95F, for example). I don't believe its surge ratings
apply to the AC2 output back into the utility but they probably
wouldn't be enough, anyway. I think that whenever the Fronius
output reached about 6000W, the SI would shift its frequency to
switch the Fronius off. Cheapest may be along the lines of your
first option-- not sure what the PV stringing is like but maybe
you could move a string or two off the Fronius and put it onto a
new Sunny Boy with an autoformer. Since I imagine this system
doesn't have PV WIRE on the module leads or home runs, officially
I'd recommend a classic Sunny Boy. Then leave the Fronius as-is.

Unless of course the customer thought they were buying a system
with the full

Re: [RE-wrenches] TIGO/ Classic 250 fights?

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

The SPD will (or, should), "clamp" the input voltages, both positive and 
negative to ground at the
MOV voltage rating during a lightning strike.  The SPD 300 starts at 
about 500 volts on each leg
of the SPD.  The 600 SPD is higher voltage of course.  Since, on the PV 
input side, the MOVs
appear to be in series, an SPD 300 should clamp the plus and minus input 
to twice 500V or,
about 100 volts which should not do anything to a charge controller 
operating up to 250
volts or even higher so I am not sire what happened here.  We'll have to 
try to do an autopsy

on the controller if possible on this one.

We're still looking into the optimizer interaction issue.  It doesn't 
really make any sense as
to why they should "fight" though.  We have talked with Tigo on this but 
nothing definitive

yet as to why.

Thanks and happy 4th of July,
boB



On 7/4/2014 7:51 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:
Anyone else having problems with Midnight Classics Flaming out 
(Literally)? We know they don't play nice with Tigo Optimizers. 
Wondering if a Midnight SPD might also look like a short to a classic 
when it clamps. only affected two of the four controllers. Two seemed 
to be un affected, one tripped off and reset, Not only did the last 
one let the smoke out, but went Dali in the process. Painted up the 
wall and everything.Suggestions? Thanks db


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com 
NABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
From: Phil Forest mailto:pfor...@southmountain.com>>
Date: Tue, May 20, 2014 1:25 pm
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>

Will,
No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid
shutdown, since we recently switched to using SolarEdge central
inverters with optimizer under each module, for roof mounted
installs.
So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have
to enable the arc fault protection when commissioning, ships
disabled.

Phil Forest
South Mountain Company

On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White
mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com>>
wrote:


Wrenches,
Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC? 
In Mass we're having all kinds of issues with inspectors

requiring/allowing an array of different things for 690.12 rapid
shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, disconnects on the
side of a house 20' up, disconnects in attics, or only
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies
between inspectors.
We're also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault
breakers on Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault
breakers that can be back fed or he wants us to run the trunk
cable in a raceway.
It's getting very difficult to install in Mass.
Thanks,
Will
*Will White*
Operations Manager - New England
RGS Energy

64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804 |mobile 802.234.3167 |fax 802.223.8980
*RGSEnergy.com  **|
william.wh...@rgsenergy.com  *




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Thanks for the clarification boB.



I would still however like to get confirmation from that the Sunny Island
does indeed protect itself from AC current over 56A. It says nothing to
this effect in the literature (at least that I can find), and would seem to
contradict the “Higher input currents must not be connected to the Sunny
Island” that it actually does say.



Steve, if you see this, could you please confirm the automated AC current
protection circuitry?



If we don’t get a reply from Steve on this list, I’ll contact him directly
and post his reply here, although it might be after the Intersolar show
next week.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar







*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *b...@midnitesolar.com
*Sent:* Friday, July 04, 2014 11:11 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit





The Sunny Island has circuitry to protect itself over 56 amps.  I think it
shuts off.

The 60 amp circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring.  Customers
complain when they cannot
get the full 56 amps from the system and 50 amps is the next nominal
current breaker below 60 A.

Thanks,
boB


On 7/3/2014 11:09 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

Yes it is. But since you have to install inverters based on the
manufacturer’s requirements, SMA’s instructions trump MidNite’s, IMHO.



Since MidNite and SMA worked jointly together to develop those E-Panels, I
can only assume that either it’s an oversight on both of their parts, or
that SMA is being very conservative on the switch rating in their
installation manual and “Technical Description”, where that line I quoted
is repeated. This wouldn’t surprise me, but if so SMA needs to issue a
correction.



Maybe boB at MidNite or Steve from SMA will pipe in with some info…



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Ray Walters
*Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2014 10:18 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit



A 60 amp continuously rated AC breaker is what is actually being used in
the UL listed E Panel from Midnite.

R.Ray Walters

CTO, Solarray, Inc

Nabcep Certified PV Installer,

Licensed Master Electrician

Solar Design Engineer

303 505-8760

On 7/3/2014 9:01 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

Mac,



Be careful with breaker sizing here. The transfer switch in the SMA SI5048
is only rated for 56A at 120 VAC. From the SI manual:



“The maximum input current allowed on the Sunny Island is 56 A. Higher
input currents must not be connected to the Sunny Island.”



To protect that switch properly, you would need to use a 50A breaker
(unless you can find a 55A breaker that fits in your AC panel). Since most
common AC breakers are only rated for 80% duty, you would need to limit
that 50A breaker to a continuous 40A load. That’s more than the max output
current of the Fronius 10.0-1, although it’s debatable that the output of a
PV inverter is “continuous”. It certainly could be in some situations,
especially with a tracker mount, although even with a fixed array, you
could see max rated output for at least a couple of hours per day.



I agree with the suggestion of putting part of the PV array on a 5kW Sunny
Boy, or adding a second Sunny Island and using two Sunny Boy 5000’s. Using
two Islands would eliminate the need for a transformer, and allow for full
array power during grid outages.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar







*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Mac Lewis
*Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2014 9:34 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit



Hi Wrenches,



Jerry, I think you are correct, sma gear all around would be best.  This
will be my recommendation but I am sensitive to this substantial cost.

Dave, if I add the second Sunny Island, I don't think I will be throttled
back because the transfer relays are rated for 60A.  This should pass the
full current of the output of the Fronius, which is 41.7A.  My concern is
more during backup mode, if the Sunny Islands could "trick" the Fronius
into staying on line.  I would add either load dump relay control or an AC
interrupt relay to knock the Fronius off-line if the batteries were full,
in addition to the frequency shift control that the Sunny Island offers.



Thanks for the input, I'll shoot for all SMA gear.



Thanks



On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Dave Click  wrote:

Mac, that Island interconnects with a max 70A 1P breaker (6.7kW
continuous), so unless they have a constant critical load draw or the
Fronius is massively oversized, you probably don't want to AC couple the
Fronius. The 5048 is also able to output a continuous 5000W only when it's
cooler than 77F and it derates above that (4500W at 95F, for example). I
don't believe its surge ratings apply to the AC2 output back into the
utility but they probably wouldn't be enough, anyway. I think that whenever
the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] TIGO/ Classic 250 fights?

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

In addition, an SPD is supposed to keep any input lines to the equipment 
from breaking over
the insulation.  For the Classic, the hipot voltage is over 2000 volts 
to chassis (gnd).


If the SPDs are grounded and connected well they should be able to do 
their job unless maybe

it is a direct strike and then it is not so easy to visualize.

Anyway, this is why SPD voltages are normally higher than the usual 
maximum system
operating voltages.  But a good ground is essential.  Even a seemingly 
far off lightning
strike can cause high electric fields near an antenna or PV array or 
tower system but.


boB



On 7/4/2014 11:20 AM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:


The SPD will (or, should), "clamp" the input voltages, both positive 
and negative to ground at the
MOV voltage rating during a lightning strike.  The SPD 300 starts at 
about 500 volts on each leg
of the SPD.  The 600 SPD is higher voltage of course.  Since, on the 
PV input side, the MOVs
appear to be in series, an SPD 300 should clamp the plus and minus 
input to twice 500V or,
about 100 volts which should not do anything to a charge controller 
operating up to 250
volts or even higher so I am not sire what happened here.  We'll have 
to try to do an autopsy

on the controller if possible on this one.

We're still looking into the optimizer interaction issue.  It doesn't 
really make any sense as
to why they should "fight" though.  We have talked with Tigo on this 
but nothing definitive

yet as to why.

Thanks and happy 4th of July,
boB



On 7/4/2014 7:51 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:
Anyone else having problems with Midnight Classics Flaming out 
(Literally)? We know they don't play nice with Tigo Optimizers. 
Wondering if a Midnight SPD might also look like a short to a classic 
when it clamps. only affected two of the four controllers. Two seemed 
to be un affected, one tripped off and reset, Not only did the last 
one let the smoke out, but went Dali in the process. Painted up the 
wall and everything.Suggestions? Thanks db


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com 
NABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
From: Phil Forest mailto:pfor...@southmountain.com>>
Date: Tue, May 20, 2014 1:25 pm
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>

Will,
No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid
shutdown, since we recently switched to using SolarEdge central
inverters with optimizer under each module, for roof mounted
installs.
So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have
to enable the arc fault protection when commissioning, ships
disabled.

Phil Forest
South Mountain Company

On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White
mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com>> wrote:


Wrenches,
Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014
NEC?  In Mass we're having all kinds of issues with inspectors
requiring/allowing an array of different things for 690.12 rapid
shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, disconnects on the
side of a house 20' up, disconnects in attics, or only
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies
between inspectors.
We're also having problems with one inspector requiring arc
fault breakers on Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc
fault breakers that can be back fed or he wants us to run the
trunk cable in a raceway.
It's getting very difficult to install in Mass.
Thanks,
Will
*Will White*
Operations Manager - New England
RGS Energy

64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804 |mobile 802.234.3167 |fax 802.223.8980
*RGSEnergy.com  **|
william.wh...@rgsenergy.com  *




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

I'll let Robin weigh in here as well...

Brian, It used to be very clear on the older 5048 Sunny Island. They 
wanted a 70 amp breaker connected to the input. They were assuming a 
thermal breaker. 70 times .8 = 56. We use hydraulic/magnetic breakers. 
They only go up to 60 amps and can be ran at full current continuously. 
You cannot feed a 56 amp circuit with less than a 56 amp breaker, so 60 
works just fine. The Sunny Island does shut down above 56 amps. SMA is 
not counting on a breaker to keep from breaking the inverter. That would 
never work. The breaker is there to protect the wiring, not the relay or 
anything else in the inverter.


Thanks,

Robin


On 7/4/2014 11:30 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:


Thanks for the clarification boB.

I would still however like to get confirmation from that the Sunny 
Island does indeed protect itself from AC current over 56A. It says 
nothing to this effect in the literature (at least that I can find), 
and would seem to contradict the "Higher input currents must not be 
connected to the Sunny Island" that it actually does say.


Steve, if you see this, could you please confirm the automated AC 
current protection circuitry?


If we don't get a reply from Steve on this list, I'll contact him 
directly and post his reply here, although it might be after the 
Intersolar show next week.


Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] *On Behalf Of 
*b...@midnitesolar.com 

*Sent:* Friday, July 04, 2014 11:11 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit



The Sunny Island has circuitry to protect itself over 56 amps.  I 
think it shuts off.


The 60 amp circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring. Customers 
complain when they cannot
get the full 56 amps from the system and 50 amps is the next nominal 
current breaker below 60 A.


Thanks,
boB


On 7/3/2014 11:09 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

Yes it is. But since you have to install inverters based on the
manufacturer's requirements, SMA's instructions trump MidNite's,
IMHO.

Since MidNite and SMA worked jointly together to develop those
E-Panels, I can only assume that either it's an oversight on both
of their parts, or that SMA is being very conservative on the
switch rating in their installation manual and "Technical
Description", where that line I quoted is repeated. This wouldn't
surprise me, but if so SMA needs to issue a correction.

Maybe boB at MidNite or Steve from SMA will pipe in with some info...

Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
] *On Behalf Of
*Ray Walters
*Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2014 10:18 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit

A 60 amp continuously rated AC breaker is what is actually being
used in the UL listed E Panel from Midnite.

R.Ray Walters

CTO, Solarray, Inc

Nabcep Certified PV Installer,

Licensed Master Electrician

Solar Design Engineer

303 505-8760

On 7/3/2014 9:01 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

Mac,

Be careful with breaker sizing here. The transfer switch in
the SMA SI5048 is only rated for 56A at 120 VAC. From the SI
manual:

"The maximum input current allowed on the Sunny Island is 56
A. Higher input currents must not be connected to the Sunny
Island."

To protect that switch properly, you would need to use a 50A
breaker (unless you can find a 55A breaker that fits in your
AC panel). Since most common AC breakers are only rated for
80% duty, you would need to limit that 50A breaker to a
continuous 40A load. That's more than the max output current
of the Fronius 10.0-1, although it's debatable that the output
of a PV inverter is "continuous". It certainly could be in
some situations, especially with a tracker mount, although
even with a fixed array, you could see max rated output for at
least a couple of hours per day.

I agree with the suggestion of putting part of the PV array on
a 5kW Sunny Boy, or adding a second Sunny Island and using two
Sunny Boy 5000's. Using two Islands would eliminate the need
for a transformer, and allow for full array power during grid
outages.

Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
] *On Behalf
Of *Mac Lewis
*Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2014 9:34 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit

Hi Wrenches,

Jerry, I think you are correct, sma