Re: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge inverters w/ backup generator

[Chris Mason]

The "Door Open" switch is a very useful feature. I am trying to get Fronius
to put a digital shutdown terminal on its CL line of inverters, or all
inverters preferably. We need to pressure all the inverter manufacturers to
provide a logic in or dry contact method of shutdown.
Most ATS will provide a N/O dry to indicate position.


On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

> I have done systems in Hawaii, here is one with a 30 k PV system and with
> a 250k Cummins back up genny. We have a contactor in the ATS that will open
> if the genny is operating, this in turn sends a door open signal to the
> Satcon shutting it down I don't want anything effecting the genset
> operation so with the open created in the ATS it tricks the inverter to
> shut off safely. We as a policy will not run a genset and PV unless as a AC
> coupling system and you have some active over voltage like freq and voltage
> triggers.
> Jerry
> On Feb 8, 2014 7:31 AM, "Kirk Herander"  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently posed the question to Solaredge tech support, wondering if
>> their inverter, in this case a 20kw 480 3-phase, would have any issues if
>> it were connected to an AC panel backed up by a generator. They told me no
>> problem, for the inverter's anti-islanding will work if it sees the
>> "generator frequency" and therefore will not try to push PV power to the
>> panel. But isn't 60 hz, 60hz regardless of origin? There's got to be more
>> to it than that. I question this because I asked the same to SMA several
>> years ago and they were hard-set against connecting Sunnyboys to a panel
>> with generator backup, so I always would establish the point of
>> interconnection upstream of the generator feed. Comments? Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kirk Herander
>>
>> VT Solar, LLC
>>
>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>>
>> NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
>>
>> NYSERDA-eligible Installer
>>
>> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
>>
>> 802.863.1202
>>
>>
>>
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-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge inverters w/ backup generator

[Exeltech]

Chris,

Even if a manufacturer agrees with you on incorporating an external shutdown 
option, don't expect near-term action, especially on existing models.  A 
modification of this nature obviously affects the hardware aspects of an 
inverter.  This alone mandates retesting of at least that aspect of the 
inverter by the NRTL that issued the original UL1741 certification.  If the 
change also involves software, retesting could be even more extensive.  Every 
model incorporating this feature would be affected.  It can take months of 
waiting in line before equipment can be submitted to a NRTL (depending on the 
backlog at the lab); and even more months after that for the lab to complete 
their product review and re-test.  If anything fails during the review/re-test 
process, the clock winds backwards - sometimes to the beginning (depending on 
the steps required to correct the flaw).

While an external "inverter disable" function may appear to be a very basic and 
straightforward addition, it's not.  In most cases, your request will be more 
easily incorporated into new designs that haven't yet been certified, than get 
it added to present production.

Personally, I think an "interlock" on a string system is a reasonable request, 
and likely to appear in future models from different manufacturers.  It's just 
going to take time.


Dan


On Fri, 2/14/14, Chris Mason  wrote:
 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge inverters w/ backup generator
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Friday, February 14, 2014, 4:59 AM
  
The "Door Open" switch is a very useful feature. I am trying to get Fronius to 
put a digital shutdown terminal on its CL line of inverters, or all inverters 
preferably. We need to pressure all the inverter manufacturers to provide a 
logic in or dry contact method of shutdown.
Most ATS will provide a N/O dry to indicate position. 
 
 
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
 
I have done systems in Hawaii, here is one with a 30 k PV system and with a 
250k Cummins back up genny. We have a contactor in the ATS that will open if 
the genny is operating, this in turn sends a door open signal to the Satcon 
shutting it down I don't want anything effecting the genset operation so with 
the open created in the ATS it tricks the inverter to shut off safely. We as a 
policy will not run a genset and PV unless as a AC coupling system and you have 
some active over voltage like freq and voltage triggers.
 
Jerry

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Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines"

[Bill Hennessy]

Andrew--Thank-you for your work to dampen the fire hysteria that's sweeping the 
roofs of residential solar. Between the ridiculous setbacks (out here you'd 
never see a firefighter on a house roof swinging an axe, but if so inclined, 
they could go on the other side of the peak).


And now we need to install mythical products for de-energizing and 
fire-protection racking. Unless the big leasing companies can beat back the 
anti-solar "safety" club, rooftop residential is toast. PV leaders and 
consultants have caved. A short time ago, a firefighter (what was he doing on 
the wrench page anyways?) urged installers not to look at their bottom line and 
take in the big picture.

That is exactly what you are doing in opposing these rules that are set up for 
problems that don't exist. The firefighting and code making industries are big 
bucks. 


Let's see, wrenches and folks who write the code can't figure out what it says. 
And in our county in PA, there are 90 different permitting agencies that will 
be reading the same codes and ordering their interpretations before we get a 
permit.
The real big issue is sustainability and climate change and we need to have a 
society that embraces a rush to PV and not smother it with the love of safety. 
Want to stop fires? Let's go after toaster ovens.

 
Bill Hennessy
Berks Solar, LLC





 From: Solar Energy Solutions 
To: RE-wrenches  
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar Photovoltaic 
Installation Guidelines"
 


   
Today at 11:41 AM  
Dear colleagues, 

Rooftop real estate available for solar is of unparalleled and monumental 
importance.  As we head into our 6th great extinction the solar industry needs 
to fight tooth and nail to gain 100% access to every inch of available roof 
space.  The fire fighting industry needs to adapt to solar, NOT vice versa.  

In Oregon, one person, myself, stopped the 12 person BCD committee from 
adopting the anti solar 3 foot pathway around solar arrays.  The committee 
would not listen to reason.  I went to the governors office saying and showing 
that if the Cal. Guidelines were adopted as code 100% of the roofs we had 
installed systems on would be 100%illegal and unviable.

Yada yada yada, we got the Koyaanisqatsi Rule.
 
304.9.1 General Pathway Requirements Exception 1.1. Where the PV array does not 
exceed 25% as measured in plan view of total roof area of the structure, a 
minimum 12 inch (305mm) unobstructed pathway, shall be maintained along each 
side of any horizontal ridge. 
1.2. Where the solar array area exceeds 25% as measured in plan view of total 
roof area of the structure, a minimum of one 36 inch (914 mm) unobstructed 
pathway from ridge to eave, over a structurally supported area, must be 
provided in addition to a minimum 12 inch (305 mm) unobstructed pathway along 
each side of any horizontal ridge. 

I still see this as a failure.  I had 40% going into the final meeting and one 
foot from the peak only on pitches greater than 4:12.  But, by that time 
everyone hated me s badly for holding such a hard lined solar centric 
perspective, and for succeeding in going over their heads, it was all I could 
do to get them to meet.

Unassisted in this battle I was exhausted and unable to follow the proceedings 
to the end.  And, in the end, a rafter span chart hostile to solar was thrown 
in and now we are dealing with that.

Here is the link to the  Oregon Solar Installation Specialty Code:  
http://www.cbs.state.or.us/bcd/programs/solar/solar_code/100110_OSISC.pdf
 
The concept and good intentions of a statewide code were good.  Unfortunately, 
the task was left to folk who were not as friendly towards or knowledgeable of 
solar as one would think would be asked to be part of such a noble cause.  

Respectfully Submitted,



Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond 
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.SolarEnergyOregon.com
"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."



On Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:45 AM, Mark Frye  
wrote:
 
There are so so many well informed people on this list, and I am so lazy.
>
>I wish someone could just lay it all out":
>
>We got the 2012 ABC thing nearly identical to NPPA1 with the set backs 
>and labeling
>We got the 2014 NEC with the de-energizing the conductors and equipment
>We got the IBC which appears to say one thing about fire rating ie. 
>needs to be the same as roof
>And we got the UL thing that seems to be based on the combined rating of 
>the module and racking system
>
>Wow, I commend anyone who is willing to go
 into a building department 
>and lay down a set of plans.
>
>Mark
>
>
>On 2/13/2014 10:50 AM, William Korthof wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> Thanks for the attached info. I don't see where the fire rating class of 
>> solar modules is addressed though...
>>

[RE-wrenches] Firefly Batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about Firefly carbon fiber
substrate sealed batteries?  They have some very interesting claims about
cycle life and charge efficiencies.

TIA
Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004





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[RE-wrenches] Firefly Batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about Firefly carbon fiber
substrate sealed batteries?  They have some very interesting claims about
cycle life and charge efficiencies.

TIA
Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004





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[RE-wrenches] Firefly Batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about Firefly carbon fiber
substrate sealed batteries?  They have some very interesting claims about
cycle life and charge efficiencies.

TIA
Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004





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[RE-wrenches] Ungrounded P.V.

[Jason Andrade]

Wrenches,

 

I have yet to do a Transformer-less inverter and am understanding that they
are an ungrounded system and that both the positive and negative of each
string will need to be disconnected. I started with the sma SB series and
now find myself using mainly Enphase. The SMA TL dual mppt lighter weight
inverter has my attention, especially with AB327 Knocking on the door but
that's another topic.

 

Jason

 

West Coast Sustainables

Jason Andrade

C-46# 974647

(530) 410-4745 Cell

(530) 241-7498 Office

(530) 348-5301 Fax

ja...@westcoastsustainables.com

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Firefly Batteries

[Ray Walters]

1000 cycles at 80% DOD for a small format sealed battery is impressive.  
It all gets down to what they cost, and if they really live up to those 
numbers in the real world.  It also looks like they only have a group 31 
sized 12 volt model, so that limits their use to smaller GTB 
installations mostly.  Some 6 v golf cart and L16 offerings would 
definitely expand their usability. Meanwhile Full River seems to be 
holding up well in the sealed battery market, with a much better than 
avg cycle life of around 700 cycles to 80% DOD.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 2/14/2014 9:29 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote:

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge about Firefly carbon fiber
substrate sealed batteries?  They have some very interesting claims about
cycle life and charge efficiencies.

TIA
Howie


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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Solenoid Coil Current

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

...600 Watt HOURS per day….

It must be active 24/7. If deactivated, the battery is disconnected. Thanks but 
this is irrelevant now since I found a 500 amp solenoid that only consumes 41 
WH per day. 

Larry

On Feb 13, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:

OK So if you only have the 600 watts per day when you are either on shore power 
or on a genny can you design the system to not be needed when they are off and 
kill that load
Jerry

On Feb 13, 2014 11:51 AM, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" 
 wrote:
Hi Jerry,

The no-fault condition from the CPU is +12Vdc. A fault causes 0 volts. These 
are the contactors I plan to use: 
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70062412

Larry

 

On Feb 13, 2014, at 12:38 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:

So Ian clear does the fault activate the relay or does the absence of the fault 
activate the relay because its usually best to have a absent or no fault hold 
the relay on and if anything fails as a the relay will rest this can be done 
with motorized on or contactor high load switch, you should also look at the 
switch AIC rating also
Jerry___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines"

[Dan Fink]

Bill H;
I believe I'm the firefighter you are referring to, and I'm allowed here on
the Wrenches list because I've been a professional RE installer since
1994--still my career-- and a firefighter in a rural area  with a large
percentage of PV and wind installs. A couple talking points:

~Thanks Bill Brooks for explaining here why the roofing class ABC rating
system has nothing to do with firefighter rooftop access/egress.

~Unfortunately ventilating the other side of the roof doesn't always work,
wind from the wrong direction, wrong internal compartment in the structure,
etc. Also we use chainsaws with carbide teeth, the axes are for flipping
open the roof sections; And egress is a problem...do we hang roof ladders
from PV modules to escape a roof collapse to the other side?

~A fire commander will *never* risk the lives of his responders to the
unknown. Instead the answer will be indirect attack - protect exposures -
let it burn. As a RE professional it is *your*  job to provide safe designs
and installations, label everything simply, obviously and properly as to
what is there and how to shut it off, and more importantly reach out to
your local fire department with the details on the systems you have
installed in their response area, so if they get a call there, they know
exactly what they are dealing with in advance. The more they know, the
higher the chance they can save the house.

~ There has been at least one high-profile and high-dollar "let it burn"
case in the last year. Not good for the PV industry.

Will see many of you in Denver next month. Somehow I feel like I better
keep watching my back.yikes.

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342




On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Bill Hennessy  wrote:

> Andrew--Thank-you for your work to dampen the fire hysteria that's
> sweeping the roofs of residential solar. Between the ridiculous setbacks
> (out here you'd never see a firefighter on a house roof swinging an axe,
> but if so inclined, they could go on the other side of the peak).
>
> And now we need to install mythical products for de-energizing and
> fire-protection racking. Unless the big leasing companies can beat back the
> anti-solar "safety" club, rooftop residential is toast. PV leaders and
> consultants have caved. A short time ago, a firefighter (what was he doing
> on the wrench page anyways?) urged installers not to look at their bottom
> line and take in the big picture.
>
> That is exactly what you are doing in opposing these rules that are set up
> for problems that don't exist. The firefighting and code making industries
> are big bucks.
>
> Let's see, wrenches and folks who write the code can't figure out what it
> says. And in our county in PA, there are 90 different permitting agencies
> that will be reading the same codes and ordering their interpretations
> before we get a permit.
>
> The real big issue is sustainability and climate change and we need to
> have a society that embraces a rush to PV and not smother it with the love
> of safety. Want to stop fires? Let's go after toaster ovens.
>
> Bill Hennessy
> Berks Solar, LLC
>
>
>   --
>  *From:* Solar Energy Solutions 
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2014 3:13 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar
> Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines"
>
>   
> Today at 11:41 AM
> Dear colleagues,
>
> Rooftop real estate available for solar is of unparalleled and monumental
> importance.  As we head into our 6th great extinction the solar industry
> needs to fight tooth and nail to gain 100% access to every inch of
> available roof space.  The fire fighting industry needs to adapt to
> solar, NOT vice versa.
>
> In Oregon, one person, myself, stopped the 12 person BCD committee from
> adopting the anti solar 3 foot pathway around solar arrays.  The committee
> would not listen to reason.  I went to the governors office saying and
> showing that if the Cal. Guidelines were adopted as code 100% of the roofs
> we had installed systems on would be 100%illegal and unviable.
>
> Yada yada yada, we got the Koyaanisqatsi Rule.
>
> *304.9.1 General Pathway Requirements *
> *Exception **1.1. *Where the PV array does not exceed 25% as measured in
> plan view of total roof area of the structure, a minimum 12 inch (305mm)
> unobstructed pathway, shall be maintained along each side of any horizontal
> ridge.
> *1.2*. Where the solar array area exceeds 25% as measured in plan view of
> total roof area of the structure, a minimum of one 36 inch (914 mm)
> unobstructed pathway from ridge to eave, over a structurally supported
> area, must be provided in addition to a minimum 12 inch (305 mm)
> unobstructed pathway along each side of any horizontal ridge.
>
> I still see this as a fai

Re: [RE-wrenches] Firefly batteries

[Tom DeBates]

Howie,
   I've taken a look at these and they have good stats are clean and colorful, 
but are on the pricey side (fireflyenergy.com).
  I think that this technology was originally developed by Caterpillar.

Good Luck,
Tom

 
Tom DeBates
Habi-Tek
Geneva,IL. 60134___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ungrounded P.V.

[SunHarvest]

Jason,

See page 29 of the SB7000TL manual for grounding requirements and page 30 for a 
schematic. Both the pos and neg are disconnected in the DC disco that comes 
with the SB7kTL. One problem that we recently ran into is that the TL makes WAY 
more noise upon start-up and shut-down than the non-TL so do not mount the 
inverter next to any noise-sensitive area such as a bedroom. The installation 
manual mentions this very slightly (insufficiently). Seriously, WAY more noise.

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest
001.530.798.3738 (Cell)

  - Original Message - 
  From: Jason Andrade 
  To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
  Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:08 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ungrounded P.V.


  Wrenches,

   

  I have yet to do a Transformer-less inverter and am understanding that they 
are an ungrounded system and that both the positive and negative of each string 
will need to be disconnected. I started with the sma SB series and now find 
myself using mainly Enphase. The SMA TL dual mppt lighter weight inverter has 
my attention, especially with AB327 Knocking on the door but that's another 
topic.

   

  Jason

   

  West Coast Sustainables

  Jason Andrade

  C-46# 974647

  (530) 410-4745 Cell

  (530) 241-7498 Office

  (530) 348-5301 Fax

  ja...@westcoastsustainables.com

   



--


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Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines

[Dan Fink]

Hi Bill;
That was tongue in cheek about watching my back! But wow I've seen the
discussion get heated, even in face to face outreach sessions. The
firefighter you refer to is one of the top teachers on the topic in the US.
Providing an escape route on the PV side of the structure is really
critical. And I think it's fair to say that the larger the percentage of
the roof that can't be ventilated, the more difficult and dangerous it is
to save the structure, and the less likely the FD will try.

And -- interior sprinklers! What a concept, not rocket science, and knocks
out about 95% of this whole discussion. Mandated in new subdivisions in my
area.

Labeling! SHUT DOWN SOLAR HERE in big red letters outdoors, etc.

I'll keep trying to do my best as a go-between betwixt the fire service and
RE, one PV installer and one fire department at a time.

Best regards;

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342




On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Bill Hennessy  wrote:

> hi dan--you weren't the firefighter--it was some guy from california given
> a guest column. no reason to watch your back.
>
> my point is that there is no real data about fire problems from pv and
> we're talking two different worlds between a huge cold storage facility in
> an urban setting and residential rooftop a long ways from the fire station.
> i don't see the need to rule make for situations that might happen,
> effectively throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
>
> if pv is to blame in some instance for an increased loss of property, so
> be it. but what about the truck that runs into somebody's living room. do
> we install bollards in front of the rest of the houses on the street?
>
> regards, bill
>
> Bill Hennessy
> Berks Solar, LLC
> 371 Centennial Rd
> Mertztown, PA 19539
>
> o 610 682 4300
> c 484 560 4666
> NABCEP certified installer
> PA contractor #44411
> www.berkssolar.com
>
>   --
>  *From:* Dan Fink 
> *To:* Bill Hennessy ; RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2014 1:22 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar
> Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines"
>
> Bill H;
> I believe I'm the firefighter you are referring to, and I'm allowed here
> on the Wrenches list because I've been a professional RE installer since
> 1994--still my career-- and a firefighter in a rural area  with a large
> percentage of PV and wind installs. A couple talking points:
>
> ~Thanks Bill Brooks for explaining here why the roofing class ABC rating
> system has nothing to do with firefighter rooftop access/egress.
>
> ~Unfortunately ventilating the other side of the roof doesn't always work,
> wind from the wrong direction, wrong internal compartment in the structure,
> etc. Also we use chainsaws with carbide teeth, the axes are for flipping
> open the roof sections; And egress is a problem...do we hang roof ladders
> from PV modules to escape a roof collapse to the other side?
>
> ~A fire commander will *never* risk the lives of his responders to the
> unknown. Instead the answer will be indirect attack - protect exposures -
> let it burn. As a RE professional it is *your*  job to provide safe designs
> and installations, label everything simply, obviously and properly as to
> what is there and how to shut it off, and more importantly reach out to
> your local fire department with the details on the systems you have
> installed in their response area, so if they get a call there, they know
> exactly what they are dealing with in advance. The more they know, the
> higher the chance they can save the house.
>
> ~ There has been at least one high-profile and high-dollar "let it burn"
> case in the last year. Not good for the PV industry.
>
> Will see many of you in Denver next month. Somehow I feel like I better
> keep watching my back.yikes.
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Bill Hennessy wrote:
>
> Andrew--Thank-you for your work to dampen the fire hysteria that's
> sweeping the roofs of residential solar. Between the ridiculous setbacks
> (out here you'd never see a firefighter on a house roof swinging an axe,
> but if so inclined, they could go on the other side of the peak).
>
> And now we need to install mythical products for de-energizing and
> fire-protection racking. Unless the big leasing companies can beat back the
> anti-solar "safety" club, rooftop residential is toast. PV leaders and
> consultants have caved. A short time ago, a firefighter (what was he doing
> on the wrench page anyways?) urged installers not to look at their bottom
> line and take in the big picture.
>
> That is exactly what you are doing in opposing these ru

[RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines

[William Korthof]

I wholeheartedly concur with the critics here. [rant mode on]

I've long been very critical of certain elements of the Electric code...But the 
state fire Marshall guidelines are approaching outrageous. 

I feel very let down by the industry advocates, trade groups, and especially 
those directly involved in the rule making process... They're supposed to have 
the public's interest foremost in mind---code standards are supposed to be 
based on the rigorous test that they demonstrably prevent loss of life and loss 
of property at an economically justified cost. Instead, it seems, the 
rule-making has advanced to secure a role for continuing stream of proprietary 
and incrementally more costly "safety" hardware along with a secure role for 
those in the process to secure themselves a reliable permanent stream of 
consulting gigs training and retraining ever more complex and unintelligible 
code rules.


/wk

William Korthof
714.875.3576
Sustainable Solutions
#956904

On Feb 14, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:

Hi Bill;
That was tongue in cheek about watching my back! But wow I've seen the 
discussion get heated, even in face to face outreach sessions. The firefighter 
you refer to is one of the top teachers on the topic in the US. Providing an 
escape route on the PV side of the structure is really critical. And I think 
it's fair to say that the larger the percentage of the roof that can't be 
ventilated, the more difficult and dangerous it is to save the structure, and 
the less likely the FD will try. 

And -- interior sprinklers! What a concept, not rocket science, and knocks out 
about 95% of this whole discussion. Mandated in new subdivisions in my area.

Labeling! SHUT DOWN SOLAR HERE in big red letters outdoors, etc.

I'll keep trying to do my best as a go-between betwixt the fire service and RE, 
one PV installer and one fire department at a time.

Best regards; 

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342

 


On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Bill Hennessy  wrote:
> hi dan--you weren't the firefighter--it was some guy from california given a 
> guest column. no reason to watch your back.
> 
> my point is that there is no real data about fire problems from pv and we're 
> talking two different worlds between a huge cold storage facility in an urban 
> setting and residential rooftop a long ways from the fire station. i don't 
> see the need to rule make for situations that might happen, effectively 
> throwing out the baby with the bathwater. 
> 
> if pv is to blame in some instance for an increased loss of property, so be 
> it. but what about the truck that runs into somebody's living room. do we 
> install bollards in front of the rest of the houses on the street? 
> 
> regards, bill
>  
> Bill Hennessy
> Berks Solar, LLC
> 371 Centennial Rd
> Mertztown, PA 19539
> 
> o 610 682 4300
> c 484 560 4666
> NABCEP certified installer
> PA contractor #44411
> www.berkssolar.com
> 
> From: Dan Fink 
> To: Bill Hennessy ; RE-wrenches 
>  
> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 1:22 PM
> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar 
> Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines"
> 
> Bill H;
> I believe I'm the firefighter you are referring to, and I'm allowed here on 
> the Wrenches list because I've been a professional RE installer since 
> 1994--still my career-- and a firefighter in a rural area  with a large 
> percentage of PV and wind installs. A couple talking points:
> 
> ~Thanks Bill Brooks for explaining here why the roofing class ABC rating 
> system has nothing to do with firefighter rooftop access/egress.
> 
> ~Unfortunately ventilating the other side of the roof doesn't always work, 
> wind from the wrong direction, wrong internal compartment in the structure, 
> etc. Also we use chainsaws with carbide teeth, the axes are for flipping open 
> the roof sections; And egress is a problem...do we hang roof ladders from PV 
> modules to escape a roof collapse to the other side?
> 
> ~A fire commander will *never* risk the lives of his responders to the 
> unknown. Instead the answer will be indirect attack - protect exposures - let 
> it burn. As a RE professional it is *your*  job to provide safe designs and 
> installations, label everything simply, obviously and properly as to what is 
> there and how to shut it off, and more importantly reach out to your local 
> fire department with the details on the systems you have installed in their 
> response area, so if they get a call there, they know exactly what they are 
> dealing with in advance. The more they know, the higher the chance they can 
> save the house.
> 
> ~ There has been at least one high-profile and high-dollar "let it burn" case 
> in the last year. Not good for the PV industry.
> 
> Will see many of you in Denver next month. Somehow I feel like I better keep 
> watching my back.yikes.
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines

[Exeltech]

William,
 
Your frustration with the process is understandable, and quite justified to a 
great extent.
 
However, to say "... those directly involved in the rule making process...", 
and alluding to your previous description including "industry advocates", is 
patently unfair.
 
I'm one of those "industry advocates.  I, along with Bill Brooks and many 
others on these committees, do our level best to bring some modicum of sanity 
to an otherwise very insane process.
 
Over the years, I've been to many meetings with "industry advocates" such as 
Bill and many others.  I've watched as he and our colleagues do their utmost to 
educate those who would vote these issues upon us in an attempt to help them 
"see the light".   A few we win.  Many we lose.  Problem is, there are more of 
"them" than there are of "us".  Code decisions are frequently made by people 
who have no direct experience in the solar energy industry, and it shows.  In 
spite of this, Bill, I, and others who ARE from the solar industry continue our 
efforts from within.  As Andrew from Portland proved in his post earlier this 
week .. even one person in the right place at the right time can make a 
difference.
 
Your frustration is evident when we hear from you (and others) when you say .. 
"They're supposed to have the public's interest foremost in mind...".
 
"They" in this context no doubt references the code committees and the 
constituent members, including those from our industry.
 
It's just that some of us are on your side, and are continuing the struggle to 
the best of our ability.
 
Richard Perez said it best in an editorial of perhaps 15 years ago, when code 
problems back then were as much an issue as they are today.  As best I can 
paraphrase .. ".. if this madness continues .. *they* will have us all sitting 
at home in perfect safety .. in the dark."  [Emphasis is mine.]
 
Richard went on to exclude those of us within the solar industry from the 
ubiquitous "they" on these committees.
 
The effort continues, but it's an uphill battle at best.  The work isn't often 
visible to you or others, but rest assured, our "industry advocates" are doing 
their best under otherwise very difficult circumstances.
 
 
Regards to all

 
Dan



On Fri, 2/14/14, William Korthof  wrote:

 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's "Solar Photovoltaic 
Installation Guidelines
 To: "RE-wrenches" 
 Date: Friday, February 14, 2014, 9:42 PM
 
I wholeheartedly concur with the critics here. [rant mode on]

I've long been very critical of certain elements of the Electric code...But the 
state fire Marshall guidelines are approaching outrageous. 

I feel very let down by the industry advocates, trade groups, and especially 
those directly involved in the rule making process... They're supposed to have 
the public's interest foremost in mind---code standards are supposed to be 
based on the rigorous test that they demonstrably prevent loss of life and loss 
of property at an economically justified cost. Instead, it seems, the 
rule-making has advanced to secure a role for continuing stream of proprietary 
and incrementally more costly "safety" hardware along with a secure role for 
those in the process to secure themselves a reliable permanent stream of 
consulting gigs training and retraining ever more complex and unintelligible 
code rules.


/wk

William Korthof
714.875.3576
Sustainable Solutions
#956904


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