Re: [RE-wrenches] smaller 3-phase commercial inverters

[Chris Mason]

Probably because these small three phase inverters are adapted European
designs. In Europe, three phase 415 is normal. The Tripowers have an upper
voltage range of 480V so adapting them to the US is pretty easy. To adapt
to 208, all the power boards, terminals, and cabling would need to be twice
the size, so a total redesign is required. I suspect that the larger
Tripowers could never be 208V because of the currents.



On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:31 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:

> Yeah, lots more choices out there in the 10+ to 30 kW range….but pretty
> much all of the larger capacity models only come at 480V.
>
> ** **
>
> Anyone know why?  We have way more 120/208V applications here in Hawaii
> than 277/480.
>
> ** **
>
> marco
>
> ** **
>
> Chris Mason wrote:
>
> ** **
>
> >SMA just came out with their Sunny Tripower line for the US. 
>
> ** **
>
> Yes those are interesting. But they are only for 480 Wye, not 240
> Delta.
>
> Is the Fronius 11.4-3 the only 3-phase inverter that can work with 240
> 3-phase with a hi-leg (stinger)?
>
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-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Installer Support Sucks- but who else?

[Garrison Riegel]

For 240 high-leg delta systems we typically use multiples of 3 SunnyBoys, which 
do not require a neutral connection.  Without the neutral the high leg is not 
an issue.  For smaller systems a single SunnyBoy also works well connected to 
phases A and C.  While the utility company may not be a fan of this, in some 
cases it can actually restore imbalance since many buildings with 240 delta 
have few if any loads on the high leg.

 

Contrary to their manual, Power-One also claims their smaller PVI inverters are 
compatible with 240 high-leg delta.

 

Garrison

 

Garrison Riegel

Project Manager |   Solar Service Inc

[p] 847-677-0950 |   
garri...@solarserviceinc.com

 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
d...@energysolarnow.com
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:49 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Installer Support Sucks- but who else?

 

Chris Mason wrote:

 

>SMA just came out with their Sunny Tripower line for the US. 

 

Yes those are interesting. But they are only for 480 Wye, not 240 Delta.

Is the Fronius 11.4-3 the only 3-phase inverter that can work with 240 3-phase 
with a hi-leg (stinger)?

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[RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Inverters on 240 With Stinger

[Mark Byington]

 

Don wrote - 

"Is the Fronius 11.4-3 the only 3-phase inverter that can work with 240
3-phase with a hi-leg (stinger)?"

 

Well I don't know about other brands, but can guarantee that the SMA 10TL
doesn't work on a 240 Delta with high leg, because we got burned by that.
Had to change two of them out for Fronius 10's, which worked fine.  

 

As far as I could tell, this limitation on the SMA TL is not documented
anywhere on the manual or data sheet. 

 

Mark Byington

Cobalt Power Systems, Inc.

ma...@cobaltpower.com 

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] GTBB resistance

[Phil Undercuffler]

Great news, everyone -- the assigned commissioner ruling (ACR) for battery
based NEM eligibility has been released last night, and it looks very
positive.  The ACR would "give storage devices meeting the Guidebook
requirements the same benefits available to renewable generating facilities
under NEM tariffs" for two years, and systems would be exempt from standby
charges, interconnection application and review fees or upgrade charges,
similar to any other grid-tie PV system.
  This sends a very clear message to the utilities that they need to stop
obstructing RE and grid tie with battery backup using energy storage.


Ruling filed by CMMR/PEEVEY/CPUC on 10/17/2013 Conf# 68783
http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Efile/G000/M078/K591/78591800.PDF

Per the ACR, "these exemptions would apply to any storage device connected
behind the same billing meter as the NEM generating system because this
configuration meets the conditions of the “directly connected energy
storage” category as described in the Guidebook."  In order to preserve NEM
integrity (fancy words for making sure folks aren't gaming the system) the
ruling does call out a requirement for net generation output metering
(NGOM), but is open to  discussion for an exception for those customers who
are not on time-of-use rates.
  If you are on TOU rates there is a dual AC meter solution which can
capture the full output of the PV separate from any input to protected
loads and backup charging.  Washington State utilities use this approach
for our FIT with battery based systems.

If you or your customers have been impacted by the investor-owned utility's
stall tactics, I would recommend that you contact the utility and advise
them that you are aware of this ruling, and that in light of it you want
your application reviewed and approved immediately.

This has been a great week for breaking through stupid logjams.  Power to
the people!



Philip Undercuffler
Director, Product Management and Strategy
OutBack Power Technologies
17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223
360.618.4306 office  |  425.319.2821 mobile
www.outbackpower.com


On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 1:35 PM, wrote:

>
> Hi All,
> Following this post with much interest, as this affects everyone that
> wants to reduce reliance on a utility grid
>  that is already overburdened, If TOU metering was done away with, it
> would eliminate "buy low and sell high",
> which is a "wash" when you consider battery replacement cost (due to
> excessive cycling).
> GTBB is an excellent way for individuals to "do their part" in conserving
> energy. The fact that utility companies
> are putting up such a battle is indicative of one thing.money (is
> there any other motive?).  Everyone concerned
> should contact their lawmakers in Congress to pass a federal law so these
> utility companies will stop obstructing
> clean energy.
> Rgds,
>
> _
> *
> Eric Bentsen*  |  * Schneider Electric **  |  Solar Business*  |   *UNITED
> STATES*  |   *Technical Support Representative* *
> Phone:* +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |   *
> Email:* 
> *eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com* |
> *Site:** 
> www.schneider-electric.com/solar* |
> *Address:* 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551
> *
> * 
> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>
>
>
>  From: Dan Fink  To: RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Date: 10/10/2013 11:22 AM Subject: Re:
> [RE-wrenches] GTBB resistance Sent by:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> --
>
>
>
> Ray;
>
> We always run a variety of made-up financial scenarios in our "Intro to
> Off-Grid" classes.we usually end up around 35 to 70 cents per kWh.
>
> Or another way to put ita monthly 'battery bill' of $25 to $120
> depending on battery bank size, and how many years they pamper it to
> lastor torture it to premature death.
>
> The GTBB backlash from the utilities is just more smoke and
> mirrors.I'll try to get something up on HuffPost before I leave for
> Canada next week.
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Ray Walters 
> <*r...@solarray.com*>
> wrote:
> Just to add to Phil's comments:  I've been calculating total life cost of
> battery storage  (KWH x cycle life x %DOD)  and the costs are 15 to 35
> cents/ KWH to cycle a battery.  Its even higher for sealed batteries and
> Li+.  It would have to be an amazing cost difference in the TOU rates to
> beat the battery cost plus all the losses of AC charging/ discharging a
> battery.
> I agree with Phil, as I've seen utilities obstruct solar since the 1980s.
>  Unfortunately their attitude has still not changed.
> It

Re: [RE-wrenches] smaller 3-phase commercial inverters

[Chris Mason]

The Aurora 10K PVI are available in 208V.
http://www.power-one.com/sites/power-one.com/files/documents/renewable-energy/datasheet/pvi-100-i-nadatasheet.pdf



On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:31 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:

> Yeah, lots more choices out there in the 10+ to 30 kW range….but pretty
> much all of the larger capacity models only come at 480V.
>
> ** **
>
> Anyone know why?  We have way more 120/208V applications here in Hawaii
> than 277/480.
>
> ** **
>
> marco
>
> ** **
>
> Chris Mason wrote:
>
> ** **
>
> >SMA just came out with their Sunny Tripower line for the US. 
>
> ** **
>
> Yes those are interesting. But they are only for 480 Wye, not 240
> Delta.
>
> Is the Fronius 11.4-3 the only 3-phase inverter that can work with 240
> 3-phase with a hi-leg (stinger)?
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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>
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> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>


-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] smaller 3-phase commercial inverters

[August Goers]

Chris,



Good point, we've installed a few of these P1 10k units and have been
relatively happy. My understanding is that the first batch being sold in
the US was very problematic but I think they're ironing out the kinks now.
We have had a couple of failures but P1 tech support swapped them with no
problems.



However, I'm still not aware of any 1000 v 3 phase inverters on the market
for 208 v applications.



Best,



August



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason
*Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 9:14 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] smaller 3-phase commercial inverters



The Aurora 10K PVI are available in 208V.

http://www.power-one.com/sites/power-one.com/files/documents/renewable-energy/datasheet/pvi-100-i-nadatasheet.pdf





On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:31 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf 
wrote:

Yeah, lots more choices out there in the 10+ to 30 kW range….but pretty
much all of the larger capacity models only come at 480V.



Anyone know why?  We have way more 120/208V applications here in Hawaii
than 277/480.



marco



Chris Mason wrote:



>SMA just came out with their Sunny Tripower line for the US.



Yes those are interesting. But they are only for 480 Wye, not 240 Delta.

Is the Fronius 11.4-3 the only 3-phase inverter that can work with 240
3-phase with a hi-leg (stinger)?


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-- 
Chris Mason

President, Comet Systems Ltd

www.cometenergysystems.com

Cell: 264.235.5670

Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] smaller 3-phase commercial inverters

[Bill Brooks]

Marco,

 

Besides the good responses you have already received, 20-30kW, 480V machines 
are really targeting larger installations that would be on facilities with 
480V. I would generally not build a system with 480V inverters on a 208V 
service. For large systems, there are large inverters running at 208V, for 
small systems there are plenty of single-phase units that would work just fine. 
Incidentally, read the new NEC 705.100 in the 2014 code. It clarifies that 
utilities should not be disallowing single-phase units on a 3-phase service. 
The typical utility concerns do not understand how the equipment works.

 

(A) Single Phase. Single-phase inverters for hybrid systems

and ac modules in interactive hybrid systems shall be

connected to three-phase power systems in order to limit

unbalanced voltages to not more than 3 percent.

 

Informational Note: For utility-interactive single-phase inverters,

unbalanced voltages can be minimized by the same

methods that are used for single-phase loads on a three- phase

power system. See ANSI/C84.1-2011, Electric Power Systems

and Equipment — Voltage Ratings (60 Hertz).

 

This is a huge change from the way it was previously written. You can thank me 
next time I see you with a beer. This was my proposal.

 

Bill.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco 
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:31 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] smaller 3-phase commercial inverters

 

Yeah, lots more choices out there in the 10+ to 30 kW range….but pretty much 
all of the larger capacity models only come at 480V.

 

Anyone know why?  We have way more 120/208V applications here in Hawaii than 
277/480.

 

marco

 

Chris Mason wrote:

 

>SMA just came out with their Sunny Tripower line for the US. 

 

Yes those are interesting. But they are only for 480 Wye, not 240 Delta.

Is the Fronius 11.4-3 the only 3-phase inverter that can work with 240 3-phase 
with a hi-leg (stinger)?

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Re: [RE-wrenches] smaller 3-phase commercial inverters

[August Goers]

Hi Bill -



Thanks, this is helpful info. Do you know how to calculate or approximate
how we would keep the unbalanced voltage to less than 3%? I guess I need to
check out ANSI/C84.1-2011 but I thought maybe there are some ballpark rules
of thumb.



Thanks,



August





*August Goers*

Luminalt Energy Corporation

o: 415.641.4000

m: 415.559.1525



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bill Brooks
*Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 9:27 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] smaller 3-phase commercial inverters



Marco,



Besides the good responses you have already received, 20-30kW, 480V
machines are really targeting larger installations that would be on
facilities with 480V. I would generally not build a system with 480V
inverters on a 208V service. For large systems, there are large inverters
running at 208V, for small systems there are plenty of single-phase units
that would work just fine. Incidentally, read the new NEC 705.100 in the
2014 code. It clarifies that utilities should not be disallowing
single-phase units on a 3-phase service. The typical utility concerns do
not understand how the equipment works.



*(A) Single Phase. *Single-phase inverters for hybrid systems

and ac modules in interactive hybrid systems shall be

connected to three-phase power systems in order to limit

unbalanced voltages to not more than 3 percent.



Informational Note: For utility-interactive single-phase inverters,

unbalanced voltages can be minimized by the same

methods that are used for single-phase loads on a three- phase

power system. See ANSI/C84.1-2011, *Electric Power Systems*

*and Equipment — Voltage Ratings (60 Hertz)*.



This is a huge change from the way it was previously written. You can thank
me next time I see you with a beer. This was my proposal.



Bill.



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
*On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf
*Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:31 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] smaller 3-phase commercial inverters



Yeah, lots more choices out there in the 10+ to 30 kW range….but pretty
much all of the larger capacity models only come at 480V.



Anyone know why?  We have way more 120/208V applications here in Hawaii
than 277/480.



marco



Chris Mason wrote:



>SMA just came out with their Sunny Tripower line for the US.



Yes those are interesting. But they are only for 480 Wye, not 240 Delta.

Is the Fronius 11.4-3 the only 3-phase inverter that can work with 240
3-phase with a hi-leg (stinger)?
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