[RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment

2012-03-15 Thread lars Ortegren 
Wrenches,

We have a project coming up where we are installing a large array on a low
slope metal building with metal purlins. Typically we would through bolt our
attachment to the purlins, but in this case the building is a self-storage,
and access is not an option. Does anyone out there have experience with any
top side only metal-metal attachments? I've thought about using some larger
sized stainless self-tapping screws, but I worry about the pull out strength
(as the roof combined with the c-channel purlins are only about 1/8") and
the effects of heat and cooling of the roof backing the screws out over
time. Any thoughts ?

 

Lars Ortegren

 

Director of Operations

California Solar Electric Company

10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6

Grass Valley, CA 95945

http://www.californiasolarco.com/

 

Phone : (530)274-3671

Fax: (530)274-7518

 

California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624

NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091110-89

Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider

More about NABCEP:

 

http://www.nabcep.org/

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment

2012-03-15 Thread Allan Sindelar 


  
  
Lars,
This has been addressed before on this list, but its been awhile.
#14 self-tapping ("Tek") screws have phenomenal pull-out strength in
standard steel purlins. My advice is to research this through your
fastener supplier; I have seen charts on pull-out strength of
various sizes and materials. I think you'll find that you can come
up with a screw attachment schedule with which you'll be satisfied.
Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   

On 3/15/2012 10:26 AM, lars Ortegren wrote:

  
  
  
  
Wrenches,
We have a project coming up where we are
  installing a large array on a low slope metal building with
  metal purlins. Typically we would through bolt our attachment
  to the purlins, but in this case the building is a
  self-storage, and access is not an option. Does anyone out
  there have experience with any top side only metal-metal
  attachments? I’ve thought about using some larger sized
  stainless self-tapping screws, but I worry about the pull out
  strength (as the roof combined with the c-channel purlins are
  only about 1/8”) and the effects of heat and cooling of the
  roof backing the screws out over time. Any thoughts ?
 
Lars Ortegren
 
Director of Operations
California Solar Electric Company
10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
Grass Valley, CA 95945
http://www.californiasolarco.com/
 
Phone : (530)274-3671
Fax: (530)274-7518
 
California C-10
Electical Contractor #779624
NABCEP Certified PV
Installer # 091110-89
Certified NABCEP
Continuing Education Provider
More about NABCEP:
 
http://www.nabcep.org/
 
  
  

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[RE-wrenches] No underside access metal building attachment

2012-03-15 Thread Kirpal Khalsa 
Lars,
We looked into this and found some "threaded pop rivets" they were
stainless steel and you had to buy the tool and then you just drill from
the top, insert the pop rivet that leaves a threaded shaft facing skyward
that you could attach L feet or other attachments to with a nut and
washerthey guaranteed a waterproof connection and i imagine that you
could always add some Eternabond double sided butyl tape to the bottoms of
your L feet to double ensure the waterproof seal.  They supplied
engineering pullout documentation...you will need to provide them with the
thickness of the purlins, the thickness of the metal roofing, and the
thickness of the insulation if present for them to spec the right size
rivet.

The company we found that had what seemed like it would work well was
Bollhoff - a German company.  They have US distribution so you can source
the tool and materials domestically
Good luck

-- 
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o


On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Allan Sindelar <
al...@positiveenergysolar.com> wrote:

> **
> Lars,
> This has been addressed before on this list, but its been awhile. #14
> self-tapping ("Tek") screws have phenomenal pull-out strength in standard
> steel purlins. My advice is to research this through your fastener
> supplier; I have seen charts on pull-out strength of various sizes and
> materials. I think you'll find that you can come up with a screw attachment
> schedule with which you'll be satisfied.
> Allan
>
>  *Allan Sindelar*
> *al...@positiveenergysolar.com* 
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> *Positive Energy, Inc.*
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> *505 424-1112*
> *www.positiveenergysolar.com* 
>
> *
> *
>
>
> On 3/15/2012 10:26 AM, lars Ortegren wrote:
>
>  Wrenches,
>
> We have a project coming up where we are installing a large array on a low
> slope metal building with metal purlins. Typically we would through bolt
> our attachment to the purlins, but in this case the building is a
> self-storage, and access is not an option. Does anyone out there have
> experience with any top side only metal-metal attachments? I’ve thought
> about using some larger sized stainless self-tapping screws, but I worry
> about the pull out strength (as the roof combined with the c-channel
> purlins are only about 1/8”) and the effects of heat and cooling of the
> roof backing the screws out over time. Any thoughts ?
>
> ** **
>
> *Lars Ortegren*
>
> ** **
>
> Director of Operations
>
> California Solar Electric Company
>
> 10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
>
> Grass Valley, CA 95945
>
> http://www.californiasolarco.com/
>
> ** **
>
> Phone : (530)274-3671
>
> Fax: (530)274-7518
>
> ** **
>
> *California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091110-89*
>
> *Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider*
>
> More about NABCEP:
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.nabcep.org/
>
> ** **
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

2012-03-15 Thread toddcory 

i recently read that it takes the equivalent energy of between 1 and 4 tons of 
coal to make a single pv module. this is why i insist my customers do their 
efficiency upgrades and learn how to be frugal/conserve before i will even talk 
about pv with them.
 
renewables powering waste is old paradigm thinking.
consuming less is always a win win.
 
unfortunately (now that there is an incentive program) the new "solar experts" 
coming on the scene here make more $$ with bigger systems, so lipstick on pigs 
is becoming the norm.
 
one customer wanted pv because her electric bill was over $600.00/month or 180 
kWh/day!! i said there was something wrong with a power bill that high. maybe a 
duct on her heat pump had come loose and was blowing hot air into the attic and 
that should be investigated first with an energy audit. she hired another 
"expert" who put in a massive system. 
 
personally, i find it difficult to support this kind of resource use.
 
todd
 
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:26am, "Solarguy"  said:



William
Attached is a Power Point slide I made that shows the 'energy payback' from PV. 
The Swiss based IEA Photovoltaic Power Systems Programme takes a very serious 
look at the PV industry and its long term effects on the planet and PV is 
already pretty benign. While I don't know the logic behind their calculations 
my first thought is that with the volume of aluminum being extracted and 
produced for all industry world-wide, the impact by the PV industry is probably 
next to nothing. 
And using a plastic compound would mean using a crude oil based product which 
is even a bigger environmental blight than aluminum production-imo. 
Besides, with the PV industries rush to lower prices someone would have 
discovered a cheaper non-metallic replacement for aluminum if it is out there. 
Having worked for many years in the composite/plastics industry I can say that 
the production of a substitute fiber re-enforced compression molded composite 
for PV frames would be more costly than aluminum and most likely still never 
match the rigidity  of aluminum. 
Now if the PV industry trended back to smaller modules a 'plastic' frame could 
become workable but I don't see that moving out of R&D as long as prices and 
margins are so low. And I don't see a corrosion resistant module becoming a 
niche market any time soon unless another "Silicon Energy" type entrepreneur 
decides there is a market. 
 
Jim Duncan

 
-Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
 Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:13 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Cc: 'RE-wrenches'
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Installations in High Salt Spray Environments
Marco:
Are we in need of a new generation of PV modules with plastic frames?  How 
about frame-less modules on recycled plastic racking?  What is the energy cost 
for aluminum frame modules versus plastic or recycled plastic?  What is the 
energy cost of anodizing aluminum frames and racking?
There is a need here folks, that is not being filled.  Entrepreneurs, where are 
you?
William Miller





At 06:51 PM 3/14/2012, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:
>Living here in the middle of the big Blue Pacific Ocean where one is 
>never all that far from the ocean, I really question how well any metal 
>is going to hold up over time, no matter what the warranty says.
>
>Even stainless rusts in these here parts.
>
>Installer beware and for sure don’t put yourselves at risk by 
>providing anything more than the modco’s factory warranty.
>
>marco
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment

2012-03-15 Thread toddcory 

i think bob o once said he used ss pop rivets on a job like this.
 
todd
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:26am, "lars Ortegren"  said:




Wrenches,
We have a project coming up where we are installing a large array on a low 
slope metal building with metal purlins. Typically we would through bolt our 
attachment to the purlins, but in this case the building is a self-storage, and 
access is not an option. Does anyone out there have experience with any top 
side only metal-metal attachments? I’ve thought about using some larger sized 
stainless self-tapping screws, but I worry about the pull out strength (as the 
roof combined with the c-channel purlins are only about 1/8”) and the effects 
of heat and cooling of the roof backing the screws out over time. Any thoughts ?
 
 
 
Lars Ortegren
 
 
 
Director of Operations
California Solar Electric Company
10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
Grass Valley, CA 95945
[http://www.californiasolarco.com/] http://www.californiasolarco.com/
 
 
 
Phone : (530)274-3671
Fax: (530)274-7518
 
 
 
California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624
NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091110-89
Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider
More about NABCEP:
 
 
 
http://www.nabcep.org/
 
 
 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

2012-03-15 Thread wirewiz 
Todd,  
So true, thanks for the reality check. An energy survey is required here in CT 
if you want rebate money.

Larry Liesner
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sender: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgDate: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 
12:42:45 
To: RE-wrenches
Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

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Re: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

2012-03-15 Thread benn kilburn 

I was told a few days ago that a PV module will likely never produce the energy 
it took to make it I bit my lip, disagreed and wished i could recall in 
detail what i had read in one of the reports/articles i had read in the past on 
this topic.  From what i can remember it is about 2-3 yrs.
Can someone please provide any resources you may know of on this issue?
Jim, i would love to see the power point you mention.  I don't see an 
attachment.
Todd, could you please share where you read that info on the "1 to 4 tons of 
coal..."   I fully agree with you about educating customers on energy 
efficiency before talking system size.  ...and regarding your 'potential' 
customer, a couple categories come to mind for ones like that 'you can't 
argue with stupid', 'ignorance is bliss' (for that person).  For that matter, i 
guess you could include those solar 'experts' in those categories as well!
And regarding plastic framed modules, what about hemp or corn based plastic? 
(further reducing dependance on oil)  They are available and used for all kinds 
of things these days, why just check out the video on you tube of Ford's recent 
hemp plastic car!  ;)  Add that to the corrosion resistance factor and perhaps 
that is enough for a niche market to catch on.  I agree with William.
Anyway, i hope to see some articles on embedded energy in pv modules.  
Cheers,benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.benn@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY





Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:42:45 -0700
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

i recently read that it takes the equivalent energy of between 1 and 4 tons of 
coal to make a single pv module. this is why i insist my customers do their 
efficiency upgrades and learn how to be frugal/conserve before i will even talk 
about pv with them.
 
renewables powering waste is old paradigm thinking.
consuming less is always a win win.
 
unfortunately (now that there is an incentive program) the new "solar experts" 
coming on the scene here make more $$ with bigger systems, so lipstick on pigs 
is becoming the norm.
 
one customer wanted pv because her electric bill was over $600.00/month or 180 
kWh/day!! i said there was something wrong with a power bill that high. maybe a 
duct on her heat pump had come loose and was blowing hot air into the attic and 
that should be investigated first with an energy audit. she hired another 
"expert" who put in a massive system. 
 
personally, i find it difficult to support this kind of resource use.
 
todd
 
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:26am, "Solarguy"  said:



William
Attached is a Power Point slide I made that shows the 'energy payback' from PV. 
The Swiss based IEA Photovoltaic Power Systems Programme takes a very serious 
look at the PV industry and its long term effects on the planet and PV is 
already pretty benign. While I don't know the logic behind their calculations 
my first thought is that with the volume of aluminum being extracted and 
produced for all industry world-wide, the impact by the PV industry is probably 
next to nothing. 
And using a plastic compound would mean using a crude oil based product which 
is even a bigger environmental blight than aluminum production-imo. 
Besides, with the PV industries rush to lower prices someone would have 
discovered a cheaper non-metallic replacement for aluminum if it is out there. 
Having worked for many years in the composite/plastics industry I can say that 
the production of a substitute fiber re-enforced compression molded composite 
for PV frames would be more costly than aluminum and most likely still never 
match the rigidity  of aluminum. 
Now if the PV industry trended back to smaller modules a 'plastic' frame could 
become workable but I don't see that moving out of R&D as long as prices and 
margins are so low. And I don't see a corrosion resistant module becoming a 
niche market any time soon unless another "Silicon Energy" type entrepreneur 
decides there is a market. 
 
Jim Duncan

 
-Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
 Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:13 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Cc: 'RE-wrenches'
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Installations in High Salt Spray Environments
Marco:
Are we in need of a new generation of PV modules with plastic frames?  How 
about frame-less modules on recycled plastic racking?  What is the energy cost 
for aluminum frame modules versus plastic or recycled plastic?  What is the 
energy cost of anodizing aluminum frames and racking?
There is a need here folks, that is not being filled.  Entrepreneurs, where are 
you?
William Miller






At 06:51 PM 3/14/2012, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:
>Living here in the middle of the big Blue Pacific Ocean where one is 
>never all that far from the ocean, I really question how well any metal 
>is going

Re: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

2012-03-15 Thread Steve Jefferson 
Could you site a source for this?

I googled this and saw nothing like the 1 – 4 tons of coal on the first 5 pages 
of results.

Everything I read and the few power points (even one from 2000) stated that a 
single module will start creating more energy than used to make it in the 2-5 
year range.

SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family
6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel:  +1 916 625 0870
Fax: +1 916 624-2445
Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free)
Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com
www.SMA-America.com

This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC 
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended 
recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any 
attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently 
delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. 
Thank you.

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv


i recently read that it takes the equivalent energy of between 1 and 4 tons of 
coal to make a single pv module. this is why i insist my customers do their 
efficiency upgrades and learn how to be frugal/conserve before i will even talk 
about pv with them.



renewables powering waste is old paradigm thinking.

consuming less is always a win win.



unfortunately (now that there is an incentive program) the new "solar experts" 
coming on the scene here make more $$ with bigger systems, so lipstick on pigs 
is becoming the norm.



one customer wanted pv because her electric bill was over $600.00/month or 180 
kWh/day!! i said there was something wrong with a power bill that high. maybe a 
duct on her heat pump had come loose and was blowing hot air into the attic and 
that should be investigated first with an energy audit. she hired another 
"expert" who put in a massive system.



personally, i find it difficult to support this kind of resource use.



todd











On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:26am, "Solarguy" 
mailto:nt...@1scom.net>> said:

William

Attached is a Power Point slide I made that shows the 'energy payback' from PV. 
The Swiss based IEA Photovoltaic Power Systems Programme takes a very serious 
look at the PV industry and its long term effects on the planet and PV is 
already pretty benign. While I don't know the logic behind their calculations 
my first thought is that with the volume of aluminum being extracted and 
produced for all industry world-wide, the impact by the PV industry is probably 
next to nothing.

And using a plastic compound would mean using a crude oil based product which 
is even a bigger environmental blight than aluminum production-imo.

Besides, with the PV industries rush to lower prices someone would have 
discovered a cheaper non-metallic replacement for aluminum if it is out there. 
Having worked for many years in the composite/plastics industry I can say that 
the production of a substitute fiber re-enforced compression molded composite 
for PV frames would be more costly than aluminum and most likely still never 
match the rigidity of aluminum.

Now if the PV industry trended back to smaller modules a 'plastic' frame could 
become workable but I don't see that moving out of R&D as long as prices and 
margins are so low. And I don't see a corrosion resistant module becoming a 
niche market any time soon unless another "Silicon Energy" type entrepreneur 
decides there is a market.

Jim Duncan





-Original Message-
From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Installations in High Salt Spray Environments

Marco:

Are we in need of a new generation of PV modules with plastic frames?  How 
about frame-less modules on recycled plastic racking?  What is the energy cost 
for aluminum frame modules versus plastic or recycled plastic?  What is the 
energy cost of anodizing aluminum frames and racking?

There is a need here folks, that is not being filled.  Entrepreneurs, where are 
you?

William Miller





At 06:51 PM 3/14/2012, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:

>Living here in the middle of the big Blue Pacific Ocean where one is

>never all that far from the ocean, I really question how well any metal

>is going to hold up over time, no matter what the warranty says.

>

>Even stainless rusts in these here parts.

>

>Installer beware and for sure don’t put yourselves at risk by

>providing anything more than the modco’s factory

Re: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

2012-03-15 Thread benn kilburn 

Never mind Jim, i found the attachment in your original post, under a different 
'subject' title.Thanks,benn 

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. benn@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY





From: b...@daystarsolar.ca
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:37:41 -0600
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv







I was told a few days ago that a PV module will likely never produce the energy 
it took to make it I bit my lip, disagreed and wished i could recall in 
detail what i had read in one of the reports/articles i had read in the past on 
this topic.  From what i can remember it is about 2-3 yrs.
Can someone please provide any resources you may know of on this issue?
Jim, i would love to see the power point you mention.  I don't see an 
attachment.
Todd, could you please share where you read that info on the "1 to 4 tons of 
coal..."   I fully agree with you about educating customers on energy 
efficiency before talking system size.  ...and regarding your 'potential' 
customer, a couple categories come to mind for ones like that 'you can't 
argue with stupid', 'ignorance is bliss' (for that person).  For that matter, i 
guess you could include those solar 'experts' in those categories as well!
And regarding plastic framed modules, what about hemp or corn based plastic? 
(further reducing dependance on oil)  They are available and used for all kinds 
of things these days, why just check out the video on you tube of Ford's recent 
hemp plastic car!  ;)  Add that to the corrosion resistance factor and perhaps 
that is enough for a niche market to catch on.  I agree with William.
Anyway, i hope to see some articles on embedded energy in pv modules.  
Cheers,benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.benn@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY





Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:42:45 -0700
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

i recently read that it takes the equivalent energy of between 1 and 4 tons of 
coal to make a single pv module. this is why i insist my customers do their 
efficiency upgrades and learn how to be frugal/conserve before i will even talk 
about pv with them.
 
renewables powering waste is old paradigm thinking.
consuming less is always a win win.
 
unfortunately (now that there is an incentive program) the new "solar experts" 
coming on the scene here make more $$ with bigger systems, so lipstick on pigs 
is becoming the norm.
 
one customer wanted pv because her electric bill was over $600.00/month or 180 
kWh/day!! i said there was something wrong with a power bill that high. maybe a 
duct on her heat pump had come loose and was blowing hot air into the attic and 
that should be investigated first with an energy audit. she hired another 
"expert" who put in a massive system. 
 
personally, i find it difficult to support this kind of resource use.
 
todd
 
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:26am, "Solarguy"  said:



William
Attached is a Power Point slide I made that shows the 'energy payback' from PV. 
The Swiss based IEA Photovoltaic Power Systems Programme takes a very serious 
look at the PV industry and its long term effects on the planet and PV is 
already pretty benign. While I don't know the logic behind their calculations 
my first thought is that with the volume of aluminum being extracted and 
produced for all industry world-wide, the impact by the PV industry is probably 
next to nothing. 
And using a plastic compound would mean using a crude oil based product which 
is even a bigger environmental blight than aluminum production-imo. 
Besides, with the PV industries rush to lower prices someone would have 
discovered a cheaper non-metallic replacement for aluminum if it is out there. 
Having worked for many years in the composite/plastics industry I can say that 
the production of a substitute fiber re-enforced compression molded composite 
for PV frames would be more costly than aluminum and most likely still never 
match the rigidity  of aluminum. 
Now if the PV industry trended back to smaller modules a 'plastic' frame could 
become workable but I don't see that moving out of R&D as long as prices and 
margins are so low. And I don't see a corrosion resistant module becoming a 
niche market any time soon unless another "Silicon Energy" type entrepreneur 
decides there is a market. 
 
Jim Duncan

 
-Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
 Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:13 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Cc: 'RE-wrenches'
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Installations in High Salt Spray Environments
Marco:
Are we in need of a new generation of PV modules with plastic frames?  How 
about frame-less modules on recycled plastic racking?  What is the energy cost 
for aluminum frame modules versus plastic or recycled plastic?  What is the 
energy co

Re: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

2012-03-15 Thread Exeltech 
PV energy "payback" is listed as 0.7 to 25.5 years, depending on the type
of module and the data you elect to use.

The preponderance of most opinion/data support 1 to 4 years as the period
for the equivalent embodied energy in a PV module to be produced by that
module, again depending on the module "chemistry" (crystalline, film, etc.)
and other variables.

Citations:
www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf
http://energybulletin.net/node/17219
http://homepower.com/article/?file=HP127_pg32_Sanchez


Dan

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Re: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

2012-03-15 Thread Tom Elliot 
Years ago I had my 15 minutes of fame on the old TechTV network’s show The 
Screensavers talking about PV and solar energy and got that question at the end 
of the show.  I had just looked up that info and remember that while it varies 
with manufacturer the numbers for embedded energy recovery for a typical PV 
panel were in the 2-4 year range.  That was in 2002 so with the advent of 
larger panels it may even be less now then it was then.  I don’t have a link 
but I’m sure Home Power has done any number of articles on this over the years.

It’s one of those myths anti-renewable energy folks like to throw out there.

From: benn kilburn 
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:37 AM
To: Wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

I was told a few days ago that a PV module will likely never produce the energy 
it took to make it I bit my lip, disagreed and wished i could recall in 
detail what i had read in one of the reports/articles i had read in the past on 
this topic.  From what i can remember it is about 2-3 yrs. 

Can someone please provide any resources you may know of on this issue?

Jim, i would love to see the power point you mention.  I don't see an 
attachment.

Todd, could you please share where you read that info on the "1 to 4 tons of 
coal..."   I fully agree with you about educating customers on energy 
efficiency before talking system size.  ...and regarding your 'potential' 
customer, a couple categories come to mind for ones like that 'you can't 
argue with stupid', 'ignorance is bliss' (for that person).  For that matter, i 
guess you could include those solar 'experts' in those categories as well!

And regarding plastic framed modules, what about hemp or corn based plastic? 
(further reducing dependance on oil)  They are available and used for all kinds 
of things these days, why just check out the video on you tube of Ford's recent 
hemp plastic car!  ;)  
Add that to the corrosion resistance factor and perhaps that is enough for a 
niche market to catch on.  I agree with William.

Anyway, i hope to see some articles on embedded energy in pv modules.  

Cheers,
benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 
b...@daystarsolar.ca
780-906-7807 
HAVE A SUNNY DAY 






Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:42:45 -0700
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv


i recently read that it takes the equivalent energy of between 1 and 4 tons of 
coal to make a single pv module. this is why i insist my customers do their 
efficiency upgrades and learn how to be frugal/conserve before i will even talk 
about pv with them.



renewables powering waste is old paradigm thinking.

consuming less is always a win win.



unfortunately (now that there is an incentive program) the new "solar experts" 
coming on the scene here make more $$ with bigger systems, so lipstick on pigs 
is becoming the norm.



one customer wanted pv because her electric bill was over $600.00/month or 180 
kWh/day!! i said there was something wrong with a power bill that high. maybe a 
duct on her heat pump had come loose and was blowing hot air into the attic and 
that should be investigated first with an energy audit. she hired another 
"expert" who put in a massive system. 



personally, i find it difficult to support this kind of resource use.



todd











On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:26am, "Solarguy"  said:



William

Attached is a Power Point slide I made that shows the 'energy payback' from PV. 
The Swiss based IEA Photovoltaic Power Systems Programme takes a very serious 
look at the PV industry and its long term effects on the planet and PV is 
already pretty benign. While I don't know the logic behind their calculations 
my first thought is that with the volume of aluminum being extracted and 
produced for all industry world-wide, the impact by the PV industry is probably 
next to nothing. 

And using a plastic compound would mean using a crude oil based product which 
is even a bigger environmental blight than aluminum production-imo. 

Besides, with the PV industries rush to lower prices someone would have 
discovered a cheaper non-metallic replacement for aluminum if it is out there. 
Having worked for many years in the composite/plastics industry I can say that 
the production of a substitute fiber re-enforced compression molded composite 
for PV frames would be more costly than aluminum and most likely still never 
match the rigidity of aluminum. 

Now if the PV industry trended back to smaller modules a 'plastic' frame could 
become workable but I don't see that moving out of R&D as long as prices and 
margins are so low. And I don't see a corrosion resistant module becoming a 
niche market any time soon unless another "Silicon Energy" type entrepreneur 
decides there is a market. 


Jim Duncan





-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@

Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment

2012-03-15 Thread Jeff Irish 
EJOTs are a German product designed for this kind of application.  They have an 
application note that discusses purlin thickness, thread size, and pull out 
strength.  Mudge Fasteners carries them in the US.

Jeff Irish, PE
President
Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc.
and Adirondack Solar
13 Hook Road
Rhinebeck, NY 12572
T.845.876.3767x110
F.845.876.3912
j...@hvce.com
Solar Electric Systems
NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional




From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:51 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment


i think bob o once said he used ss pop rivets on a job like this.



todd







On Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:26am, "lars Ortegren" 
mailto:l...@cal-solar.com>> said:
Wrenches,
We have a project coming up where we are installing a large array on a low 
slope metal building with metal purlins. Typically we would through bolt our 
attachment to the purlins, but in this case the building is a self-storage, and 
access is not an option. Does anyone out there have experience with any top 
side only metal-metal attachments? I’ve thought about using some larger sized 
stainless self-tapping screws, but I worry about the pull out strength (as the 
roof combined with the c-channel purlins are only about 1/8”) and the effects 
of heat and cooling of the roof backing the screws out over time. Any thoughts ?





Lars Ortegren





Director of Operations
California Solar Electric Company
10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6
Grass Valley, CA 95945
http://www.californiasolarco.com/





Phone : (530)274-3671
Fax: (530)274-7518





California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624
NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091110-89
Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider
More about NABCEP:





http://www.nabcep.org/








Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Hudson Valley Computer 
Services, and is
believed to be clean.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment

2012-03-15 Thread jay peltz 
Hi Allan,

I get 1/4 x 20 self taping screws from.
I think they are even stronger than the TEK screws.

dynamicfasterner.com


Jay

Peltz power


On Mar 15, 2012, at 9:40 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

> Lars,
> This has been addressed before on this list, but its been awhile. #14 
> self-tapping ("Tek") screws have phenomenal pull-out strength in standard 
> steel purlins. My advice is to research this through your fastener supplier; 
> I have seen charts on pull-out strength of various sizes and materials. I 
> think you'll find that you can come up with a screw attachment schedule with 
> which you'll be satisfied.
> Allan
> 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505 424-1112
> www.positiveenergysolar.com
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment

2012-03-15 Thread Allan Sindelar 


  
  
Yeah, Jay, I think Dynamic Fastener is where I saw the pull-out
chart. I believe that 1/4" is equivalent to #14 - can anyone verify
this? 

So the question (to which I don't know the answer) becomes: in heavy
gauge steel (Lars mentioned "about 1/8"), will a 1/4 x 20 machine
thread resist pullout better than a Tek thread? There would be more
threads in the material with the machine thread, but the thread's
major diameter is much smaller than the thread of the Tek screw. 

Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   

On 3/15/2012 8:53 PM, jay peltz wrote:
Hi Allan,
  
  
  I get 1/4 x 20 self taping screws from.
  I think they are even stronger than the TEK screws.
  
  
  dynamicfasterner.com
  
  
  
  
  Jay
  
  
  Peltz power

  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment

2012-03-15 Thread Solarguy 
I did the pullout calculations for 5/16-18 bolts last year and found that to
be plenty good. After drill/tap 72 holes with a magnetic chuck drill I won't
ever do it again. It's way too labor intensive. And the 24 thread pitch,
which would have been stronger, was not available in stainless so we used
18TPI. 

 

Jim Duncan

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:17 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] No underside access metal biulding attachment

 

Yeah, Jay, I think Dynamic Fastener is where I saw the pull-out chart. I
believe that 1/4" is equivalent to #14 - can anyone verify this? 

So the question (to which I don't know the answer) becomes: in heavy gauge
steel (Lars mentioned "about 1/8"), will a 1/4 x 20 machine thread resist
pullout better than a Tek thread? There would be more threads in the
material with the machine thread, but the thread's major diameter is much
smaller than the thread of the Tek screw. 

Allan

Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com   

 

 


On 3/15/2012 8:53 PM, jay peltz wrote: 

Hi Allan, 

 

I get 1/4 x 20 self taping screws from.

I think they are even stronger than the TEK screws.

 

dynamicfasterner.com

 

 

Jay

 

Peltz power

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Re: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv

2012-03-15 Thread toddcory 

dang... this was from a movie i watched last week. i thought was still on my 
hard drive... and i cannot find it now...
 
todd
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 15, 2012 1:46pm, "Steve Jefferson" 
 said:




Could you site a source for this?
 
 
 
I googled this and saw nothing like the 1 – 4 tons of coal on the first 5 pages 
of results.
 
 
 
Everything I read and the few power points (even one from 2000) stated that a 
single module will start creating more energy than used to make it in the 2-5 
year range.
 
 
 
SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family 
6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel:  +1 916 625 0870
Fax: +1 916 624-2445
Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free)
Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com
[http://www.sma-america.com/] www.SMA-America.com
 
This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC 
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended 
recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any 
attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently 
delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. 
Thank you.
 
 
 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv
 
 
 
i recently read that it takes the equivalent energy of between 1 and 4 tons of 
coal to make a single pv module. this is why i insist my customers do their 
efficiency upgrades and learn how to be frugal/conserve before i will even talk 
about pv with them.
 
renewables powering waste is old paradigm thinking.
consuming less is always a win win. 
 
unfortunately (now that there is an incentive program) the new "solar experts" 
coming on the scene here make more $$ with bigger systems, so lipstick on pigs 
is becoming the norm. 
 
one customer wanted pv because her electric bill was over $600.00/month or 180 
kWh/day!! i said there was something wrong with a power bill that high. maybe a 
duct on her heat pump had come loose and was blowing hot air into the attic and 
that should be investigated first with an energy audit. she hired another 
"expert" who put in a massive system.  
 
personally, i find it difficult to support this kind of resource use. 
 
todd
 
 
 
 
 
On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:26am, "Solarguy" <[mailto:nt...@1scom.net] 
nt...@1scom.net> said:

William 
Attached is a Power Point slide I made that shows the 'energy payback' from PV. 
The Swiss based IEA Photovoltaic Power Systems Programme takes a very serious 
look at the PV industry and its long term effects on the planet and PV is 
already pretty benign. While I don't know the logic behind their calculations 
my first thought is that with the volume of aluminum being extracted and 
produced for all industry world-wide, the impact by the PV industry is probably 
next to nothing. 
And using a plastic compound would mean using a crude oil based product which 
is even a bigger environmental blight than aluminum production-imo. 
Besides, with the PV industries rush to lower prices someone would have 
discovered a cheaper non-metallic replacement for aluminum if it is out there. 
Having worked for many years in the composite/plastics industry I can say that 
the production of a substitute fiber re-enforced compression molded composite 
for PV frames would be more costly than aluminum and most likely still never 
match the rigidity of aluminum. 
Now if the PV industry trended back to smaller modules a 'plastic' frame could 
become workable but I don't see that moving out of R&D as long as prices and 
margins are so low. And I don't see a corrosion resistant module becoming a 
niche market any time soon unless another "Silicon Energy" type entrepreneur 
decides there is a market. 
Jim Duncan 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Installations in High Salt Spray Environments 
Marco: 
Are we in need of a new generation of PV modules with plastic frames?  How 
about frame-less modules on recycled plastic racking?  What is the energy cost 
for aluminum frame modules versus plastic or recycled plastic?  What is the 
energy cost of anodizing aluminum frames and racking? 
There is a need here folks, that is not being filled.  Entrepreneurs, where are 
you? 
William Miller 





At 06:51 PM 3/14/2012, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: 
>Living here in the middle of the big Blue Pacific Ocean where one is  
>never a