Re: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING

[Steve Higgins]

Sorry all… I was out on a little three day vacation. 

 

I usually program return amps setting to usually 2-3% of the overall battery 
bank capacity. 

 

Usually and depending on the battery type or manufacure when the current 
passing from the charger to the battery drops to this Return amp setting 
technically the batteries are charged.  

 

Because batteries are technically buckets of water with holes in them, they 
will never stop pulling current, nor will they never be fully charged.   What 
happens is they start to draw a minimum of charge current from the charger.   
This “Maintenance current” usually is between 2,3,4,5 percent of the overall 
battery bank capasity. 

 

With the Return amps setting you can get the batteries close to that charged 
setting. 

 

 

Steve Higgins. 

Sr Application Engineering Mgr

Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. 

Outback Power Systems. 

19009 62nd Ave Ne 

Arlington Wa 98223

360-618-4313

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 8:37 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING

 

Chris Freitas of Outback can you chime in here?

 

Thanks,  Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com

Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING

 

That is a good question, I have not an answer, but of course it should be based 
on the amp hour of the battery bank, absorb charging voltage, and of course the 
charging source in the case of generators.  Following Ron's advise start at C/5 
for SOC less than 50% then C/10 till about 70% SOC and then C/15 till 80% then 
C/20 to 90 %. the problem we have no way to set these values, Perhaps Ron could 
give is a routine?  The closet to SOC charging is the Outback and then the 
Magnum but both miss the goal.  

--- On Wed, 7/21/10, Dana  wrote:


From: Dana 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 5:54 PM

As the % of full charge is related to the of degree absorption & gravity [the 
denser & more charged acid descending, and lighter acid rising] @ what point in 
the absorption would be prudent to stop charging?

 

I used to cut off the charge on the Trace SW series at 12 “return amps”, VS. 
the factory default I think was at 5 amps.  This has & continues to work well 
but I never had anyone really answer this function clearly.

 

Is there a battery manufacturer  or wrench that would care to comment on the:  

The minimum “Return” amps to disconnect for a “full” charge?

OR

The time required per 100 AHR after reaching the Absorption point setting for 
the mix to occur?

 

I realize that battery construction, battery condition, age and temperature and 
the current power usage will also play into this factor and it may not be a 
simple answer.

 

 

 

 

 

 Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com

Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 4:25 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Propane Generator, Dual Outback Inverters

 

Allen,

 

Can I infer that if you are shutting off the gen before charge rates drop in 
absorption that you are running only briefly in the absorb phase? Or do your 
charge currents remain high through out an extended absortion phase?

 

Perhaps you have plenty of PV which you rely upon to bring the batteries up 
through the absorption phase, once the gen is shut off.

 

I would be interest to learn more about your approach to this.

 

Thanks,

 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com    

 

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:17 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Propane Generator, Dual Outback Inverters

The Onan RS2 shown in the generators article in HP 131 page 98 has 
performed flawlessly as backup support to an Outback quad-stack of VFX3648s. 
Differences, however, are that this 20kW gennie charges four inverters, rather 
than two; the elevation is 6,600 feet for about a 20% output deration; there 
are no huge loads above charging draw; and the client is 

Re: [RE-wrenches] AL wire with DC

[bob]

I don't think most of the breakers and wire ends we use (or at least I) are
rated for Al use. I don't use Al at all and try to have as few splices as
possible. Each splice is a potential problem and with Al a failure in the
insulation can result in the wire just corroding away if it's buried. I
don't think it makes a difference if it's the + or - wire.

Later,
Bob



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 8:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AL wire with DC

I think some of the advantage of the Cu in a bad connection is that it
dissipates heat better. That might explain the melting Al, but not the Cu.
Cu will melt and cook the insulation if the connection is loose enough at
high enough amperage.
Again, I have not personally seen a problem with Al on DC runs, I just
haven't done it.
110.14 just specifies what we already know( I think), that you have to use
special connectors that isolate the cu from direct contact with the Al.
The new splice block type connectors are great for this.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Jul 23, 2010, at 4:54 PM, Dana wrote:

> I cannot speak for what if.
> 
> I have seen CU & AL bolted in AL mechanical butt splices
> where someone did not torque it to spec. and it went to
> arcing. Both were a mess ; The butt splice was pitted /
> damaged and needed replacement, the AL cable melted and the
> copper cable did not.
> It the same amperage, but both were 1,600+watt arrays. 
> But AL is softer and the strands are larger for the same
> size as CU wire. 
> 
> I think that there was a greater safety factor in the CU.
> More strands, finer wires, a harder metal, therefore greater
> contact area on the AL mechanical butt splice. I have seen
> split bolts that were loose and you could pull the wire out
> easily and no melting or arcing. 
> 
> Thanks,  Dana Orzel
> 
> Great Solar Works, Inc
> E - d...@solarwork.com
> V - 970.626.5253
> F - 970.626.4140
> C - 970.209.4076
> web - www.solarwork.com
> 
> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf
> Of Dana
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 4:24 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AL wire with DC
> 
> OG - Off Grid
> 
> Thanks,  Dana Orzel
> 
> Great Solar Works, Inc
> E - d...@solarwork.com
> V - 970.626.5253
> F - 970.626.4140
> C - 970.209.4076
> web - www.solarwork.com
> 
> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf
> Of Richard L Ratico
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 4:18 PM
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AL wire with DC
> 
> Dana,
> 
> Thanks for the input. Excuse me please, "OG jobs" are?
> 
> If the wire had been copper and didn't melt, but instead
> continued to arc,
> would the resultant heat have eventually started a fire?
> What type of splice was it?
> 
> Does no one else use Al for DC? Here in rocky Vermont/NH,
> we use the same type aluminum URD cable for both AC and DC
> runs, but,
> always installed in PVC conduit, never direct buried.
> Haven't seen
> seen a problem yet.
> 
> Dick Ratico
> Solarwind Electric
> 
> --- You wrote:
> The problem with Al is that, IF there is ever a loose
> connection, & associated arcing, that it melts not like
> copper in the same situation which may arc but not melt.
> 
> I have come in on OG jobs where Al was employed and found J
> boxes that were [sometimes wet] and had loose connections
> and the splice was charred/melted and the AL wire was not
> conducting & melted beyond use, directly at the splice. The
> rubber linemen's tape was charred and there was a direct
> short to the metal box which was at least grounded
> correctly. I tend not to use Al based on this experience.
> 
> Thanks,  Dana Orzel
> 
> Great Solar Works, Inc
> E - d...@solarwork.com
> V - 970.626.5253
> F - 970.626.4140
> C - 970.209.4076
> web - www.solarwork.com
> 
> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf
> Of R Ray Walters
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 7:46 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] calculating DC voltage drop
> 
> I try to keep it in copper for DC, as I had always heard of
> trouble with Aluminum on DC. (True or Old Wrenches Tale?)
> We definitely go to Al on long AC runs, as its whats
> available, and the cost difference becomes remarkable.
> I've seen small cuts in Al, later corrode completely through
> the conductor.(AC run) I'm not sure what would happen it
> were DC.
> Probably depend o

[RE-wrenches] Voltage Drop Calculator Templates

[Michael Kelly]

Hi All,

 

I got a request to make my voltage drop excel templates available in both
the new and old excel formats.  I also changed the calculator so you can
input your own Imp multiplier (if desired).  Here they are:

 

Excel 97-2003 version:
http://www.mechanicalmike.com/solar/DC_Voltage_Drop_Calculations_Template_07
_26_2010.xlt

Excel 2007 version:
http://www.mechanicalmike.com/solar/DC_Voltage_Drop_Calculations_Template_07
_26_2010.xltx

 

- Mike

---

Michael Kelly
Applications Engineer

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer T

toplogo
Solectria Renewables, LLC

360 Merrimack St.

Building 9, Floor 2

Lawrence, MA 01843
Phone: 978-683-9700 ext. 167
Fax: 978-683-9702

  m...@solren.com

  www.solren.com

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING

[Mark Frye]

Steve,
 
Just to make sure I am not missing something, there is no way to directly
set Outback equipment for a particular return amp rate. Rather one must
observe the charge cycle and set the absorption timer accordingly.
 
Do have that right?
 
Thanks,
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
  www.berkeleysolar.com  
 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Higgins
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 6:28 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING



Sorry all. I was out on a little three day vacation. 

 

I usually program return amps setting to usually 2-3% of the overall battery
bank capacity. 

 

Usually and depending on the battery type or manufacure when the current
passing from the charger to the battery drops to this Return amp setting
technically the batteries are charged.  

 

Because batteries are technically buckets of water with holes in them, they
will never stop pulling current, nor will they never be fully charged.
What happens is they start to draw a minimum of charge current from the
charger.   This "Maintenance current" usually is between 2,3,4,5 percent of
the overall battery bank capasity. 

 

With the Return amps setting you can get the batteries close to that charged
setting. 

 

 

Steve Higgins. 

Sr Application Engineering Mgr

Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. 

Outback Power Systems. 

19009 62nd Ave Ne 

Arlington Wa 98223

360-618-4313

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Re: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING

[Steve Higgins]

The only way for Outback gear to measure return amps is to incorporate
an FNDC in the installation.   

 

Otherwise then yes you are correct. 

 

 

Steve Higgins. 

Sr Application Engineering Mgr

Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. 

Outback Power Systems. 

19009 62nd Ave Ne 

Arlington Wa 98223

360-618-4313

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark
Frye
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 8:02 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING

 

Steve,

 

Just to make sure I am not missing something, there is no way to
directly set Outback equipment for a particular return amp rate. Rather
one must observe the charge cycle and set the absorption timer
accordingly.

 

Do have that right?

 

Thanks,

 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com    

 

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Higgins
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 6:28 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RETURN AMP SETTING

Sorry all... I was out on a little three day vacation. 

 

I usually program return amps setting to usually 2-3% of the overall
battery bank capacity. 

 

Usually and depending on the battery type or manufacure when the current
passing from the charger to the battery drops to this Return amp setting
technically the batteries are charged.  

 

Because batteries are technically buckets of water with holes in them,
they will never stop pulling current, nor will they never be fully
charged.   What happens is they start to draw a minimum of charge
current from the charger.   This "Maintenance current" usually is
between 2,3,4,5 percent of the overall battery bank capasity. 

 

With the Return amps setting you can get the batteries close to that
charged setting. 

 

 

Steve Higgins. 

Sr Application Engineering Mgr

Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. 

Outback Power Systems. 

19009 62nd Ave Ne 

Arlington Wa 98223

360-618-4313


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[RE-wrenches] How to evaluate chinese PV modules?

[Aladdin Solar]

Wrenches:

Like it or not, there is a huge volume of PV modules manufactured (in part or 
completely) in China. And we're seeing U.S. producers moving operations there, 
too. If we can put aside some of the knee-jerk reactions to the idea of Chinese 
manufacturing and face the fact that it's a major force in the industry, isn't 
is possible, even likely, that some of these products are every bit as good as 
those we are more familiar with?

How can we rationally evaluate modules from manufacturers we are unfamiliar 
with? Obviously UL and CEC listings/certifications are an important starting 
point but this doesn't narrow the field much. Warranties also do not narrow the 
field, either. Module specs aren't likely to very many products. Evaluation of 
the quality of modules seems not possible without long-term testing and 
in-field hands on experience. But we don't really know how the new models from 
Sharp, Sanyo or SolarWorld will hold up over time either but we tend to trust 
them because they are familiar. Age/history/trackrecord eliminates newer 
companies but still leave numerous large manufacturers as viable. Will they, 
can they, back up their products... how can you know? Shipping distance could 
be a reason to resist Asian manufacturers except that modules from Europe are 
also shipped half-way around the world to us. Employee human rights and 
environmental concerns would be important if there was some way to evaluate 
these--but how to research this? I've tried and don't have the time to find 
objective information.

So, how do we evaluate these Chinese modules? Do we just lump them all into a 
"low quality" category? Is there a source of objective information where 
quality and other issues have been investigated? Are there some Asian 
manufacturers you trust and some you definitely stay away from?

Thanks.
Charlie Pickard
Aladdin Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] How to evaluate chinese PV modules?

[Mick Abraham]

Props to Charlie for stating these issues clearly & fairly. There are too
many new manu's for me to sort through so I typically delete/spamreport all
offers from unknown/chinese sources. That's the "knee jerk reaction" that
Charlie mentions, but it's only partly due to anti-communism. It's also due
to information overload.

As a small timer, I am not likely to import for myself from Asia so one
thing I would look for is American based warehousing  & distribution...and
American based warranty procedures. Can I trust that my "big name"
wholesalers would not hitch their corporate wagons to a manu which does not
have the technical chops or financial staying power? Maybe...maybe not.

The wholesale distributors would do well to develop a list of whys &
wherefores about their alliance with a particular Chinese PV manu...not for
broadcast to the Wrench List but for helping their dealers to feel OK about
the latest product offering.

Come to think of it, an annual report on all their PV manus du jahr would be
a good thing, because the biz landscape can shift, right?

Jolliness~

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675


On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Aladdin Solar
wrote:

>  Wrenches:
>
> Like it or not, there is a huge volume of PV modules manufactured (in part
> or completely) in China. And we're seeing U.S. producers moving operations
> there, too. If we can put aside some of the knee-jerk reactions to the idea
> of Chinese manufacturing and face the fact that it's a major force in the
> industry, isn't is possible, even likely, that some of these products are
> every bit as good as those we are more familiar with?
>
> How can we rationally evaluate modules from manufacturers we are unfamiliar
> with? Obviously UL and CEC listings/certifications are an important starting
> point but this doesn't narrow the field much. Warranties also do not narrow
> the field, either. Module specs aren't likely to very many products.
> Evaluation of the quality of modules seems not possible without long-term
> testing and in-field hands on experience. But we don't really know how the
> new models from Sharp, Sanyo or SolarWorld will hold up over time either but
> we tend to trust them because they are familiar. Age/history/trackrecord
> eliminates newer companies but still leave numerous large manufacturers as
> viable. Will they, can they, back up their products... how can you know?
> Shipping distance could be a reason to resist Asian manufacturers except
> that modules from Europe are also shipped half-way around the world to us.
> Employee human rights and environmental concerns would be important if there
> was some way to evaluate these--but how to research this? I've tried and
> don't have the time to find objective information.
>
> So, how do we evaluate these Chinese modules? Do we just lump them all into
> a "low quality" category? Is there a source of objective information where
> quality and other issues have been investigated? Are there some Asian
> manufacturers you trust and some you definitely stay away from?
>
> Thanks.
> Charlie Pickard
> Aladdin Solar
>
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[RE-wrenches] Congested Panel Problem

[Peter Parrish]

We occasionally run into a dual headache: a congested AND underpowered
service panel.

Case in point a 100A Zinsco main panel with no room for a two pole breaker
for inverter back feed.

Normally we pull two 20A/120V branch circuits out of the main panel into a
subpanel, back feed the subpanel with the inverter output and feed the main
panel from the subpanel. 

The inverter in question is a SMA SB4000. Minimum over current protection is
16.66A (e.g. 20A continuous duty breaker). Otherwise protection needs to be
20.83A (e.g. 25A regular breaker).

So we installed a 100A subpanel, pulled in the two 20A circuits, backed this
subpanel with the inverter via a 20A continuous duty breaker, and fed the
main panel via #8 wire and a 40A breaker.

The inspector has a problem with this approach. Doesn't have a problem with
the 20A breaker in the subpanel, but he objects to the 40A breaker in the
main panel. His reasoning includes applying NEC 790.64(B). I believe the
last sentence of (B)(2) stipulates that the breaker back feeding the
subpanel is the one that counts, not what eventually what breaker back feeds
the main panel.

This inspector also has a problem with the production meter we installed. He
wanted to see the "UL Listing" on the meter. I called Austin International
(our vendor) about the meter in question (Itron Centron C1S) and they said
that UL doest test meters as they (normally) are not used on the customer
side of the service. Is there another listing for meters that would satisfy
a nit-picky inspector? To make matters worse, we now have in stock both
Itron Centron C1S meters as well as Schlumberger Centron C1S meters. Did
Schlumberger buy out Itron? Or vice versa?

Any help on the main panel calculation and acceptable listings for meter
would be greatly appreciated. 


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Congested Panel Problem

[David Brearley]

Peter, 

You can address the inspector's first complaint by pointing to the new
language (NEC 2008) in 690.64(B)(2):

"In systems with panelboards connected in series, the rating of the first
overcurrent protection device directly connected to the output of a
utility-interactive inverter(s) shall be used in the calculations for all
busbars and conductors."

This states that only the 20A breaker should be counted, the breaker
directly connected to the inverter. Even if the AHJ has not adopted the 2008
Code, you may be able to get this accepted. This change to the Code is
basically intended to eliminate confusion in the earlier cycles.

BTW: what 20A breaker did you find that was rated for continuous duty?

Best, David

On 7/26/10 2:18 PM, "Peter Parrish"  wrote:

> We occasionally run into a dual headache: a congested AND underpowered
> service panel.
> 
> Case in point a 100A Zinsco main panel with no room for a two pole breaker
> for inverter back feed.
> 
> Normally we pull two 20A/120V branch circuits out of the main panel into a
> subpanel, back feed the subpanel with the inverter output and feed the main
> panel from the subpanel.
> 
> The inverter in question is a SMA SB4000. Minimum over current protection is
> 16.66A (e.g. 20A continuous duty breaker). Otherwise protection needs to be
> 20.83A (e.g. 25A regular breaker).
> 
> So we installed a 100A subpanel, pulled in the two 20A circuits, backed this
> subpanel with the inverter via a 20A continuous duty breaker, and fed the
> main panel via #8 wire and a 40A breaker.
> 
> The inspector has a problem with this approach. Doesn't have a problem with
> the 20A breaker in the subpanel, but he objects to the 40A breaker in the
> main panel. His reasoning includes applying NEC 790.64(B). I believe the
> last sentence of (B)(2) stipulates that the breaker back feeding the
> subpanel is the one that counts, not what eventually what breaker back feeds
> the main panel.
> 
> This inspector also has a problem with the production meter we installed. He
> wanted to see the "UL Listing" on the meter. I called Austin International
> (our vendor) about the meter in question (Itron Centron C1S) and they said
> that UL doest test meters as they (normally) are not used on the customer
> side of the service. Is there another listing for meters that would satisfy
> a nit-picky inspector? To make matters worse, we now have in stock both
> Itron Centron C1S meters as well as Schlumberger Centron C1S meters. Did
> Schlumberger buy out Itron? Or vice versa?
> 
> Any help on the main panel calculation and acceptable listings for meter
> would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
>  
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
> 
>




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Congested Panel Problem

[Kirpal Khalsa]

Peter.SMA makes a SB 4000US with a CL (current limited) marking.you
would need to order this specifically.  They limit the max continuous output
to16A (16*1.25 =20) instad of 16.66 so that after adding your 1.25
multiplier you can still use a 20A breaker in a 100 amp panel and you are
then complying with the 20% rule for the 100A bus bar.
This does not cover your sub panel situation, but if your system design can
stand to be downsized then you can skip the subpanel situation all together.
 Of course if there is no space in the main panel than for a breaker than a
sub panel may still be required
Cheers,
-- 
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-218-0201 m
541-592-3958 o



Normally we pull two 20A/120V branch circuits out of the main panel into a
> subpanel, back feed the subpanel with the inverter output and feed the main
> panel from the subpanel.
>
> The inverter in question is a SMA SB4000. Minimum over current protection
> is
> 16.66A (e.g. 20A continuous duty breaker). Otherwise protection needs to be
> 20.83A (e.g. 25A regular breaker).
>
> So we installed a 100A subpanel, pulled in the two 20A circuits, backed
> this
> subpanel with the inverter via a 20A continuous duty breaker, and fed the
> main panel via #8 wire and a 40A breaker.
>
> The inspector has a problem with this approach. Doesn't have a problem with
> the 20A breaker in the subpanel, but he objects to the 40A breaker in the
> main panel. His reasoning includes applying NEC 790.64(B). I believe the
> last sentence of (B)(2) stipulates that the breaker back feeding the
> subpanel is the one that counts, not what eventually what breaker back
> feeds
> the main panel.
>
> This inspector also has a problem with the production meter we installed.
> He
> wanted to see the "UL Listing" on the meter. I called Austin International
> (our vendor) about the meter in question (Itron Centron C1S) and they said
> that UL doest test meters as they (normally) are not used on the customer
> side of the service. Is there another listing for meters that would satisfy
> a nit-picky inspector? To make matters worse, we now have in stock both
> Itron Centron C1S meters as well as Schlumberger Centron C1S meters. Did
> Schlumberger buy out Itron? Or vice versa?
>
> Any help on the main panel calculation and acceptable listings for meter
> would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] UL Listing for meter

[Hans Frederickson]

I scanned the UL White Book and did not find a category listing for bolt-in
or plug-in type watt-hour meters. There are several categories for the meter
sockets. If UL hasn't taken it on, I can't imagine that anyone has paid any
other NRTL to evaluate equipment that typically doesn't require a listing. I
have heard of AHJ's waiving the listing requirements for equipment when no
standard exists... I would suggest to the AHJ that there is no listing for
watt-hour meters so this requirement is impossible to meet.

Regards,
-Hans 



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 12:19 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Congested Panel Problem

This inspector also has a problem with the production meter we installed. He
wanted to see the "UL Listing" on the meter. I called Austin International
(our vendor) about the meter in question (Itron Centron C1S) and they said
that UL doest test meters as they (normally) are not used on the customer
side of the service. Is there another listing for meters that would satisfy
a nit-picky inspector? To make matters worse, we now have in stock both
Itron Centron C1S meters as well as Schlumberger Centron C1S meters. Did
Schlumberger buy out Itron? Or vice versa?

Any help on the main panel calculation and acceptable listings for meter
would be greatly appreciated. 


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Picking a Quality Chinese PV Module

[Jeff Oldham]

I tend to side with Peter on this and can recall the days when folks would not 
buy a German or Japanese product either, now both are respected for quality and 
politics are put aside. I have used both Trina and Yingli. Both have performed 
well out of the box. My most recent install was with Trina and the STC to AC 
was a very impressive 85% and the ambient temp was 85F. Time will tell of 
course, however I've had to deal w/many failed U.S. made modules over the years 
and have been bit in the rear far too many times by the likes of Solarex, 
Siemens, AstroPower and Uni-solar and a massive failure of Japanese made 
Kyocera's.

I've tried the boycott the Chinese thing and the longer I keep my head in the 
sand the more I feel like the joke is on me.

-jeff o


>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative 
>SOLutions

SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09
SPECIAL REPORT: High ticket items are being auctioned for an incredible 90% off!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AL wire with DC

[Jeff Oldham]

I have used AL wire in DC circuits for 30 years and have never had a problem. 
If you carefully follow the protocols for working with AL you should have the 
same experience. As pointed out the cost difference can be staggering. I'm 
designing an o-t-g 3kW PV system now that has this array 1300' from the 
batteries, AL is the only reasonable answer.


>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative 
>SOLutions

SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09
SPECIAL REPORT: High ticket items are being auctioned for an incredible 90% off!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4c4e03bf90d8b9f2c2st05vuc___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] UL Listing for meter

[Matt Lafferty]

Wrenches,

The issue of UL Listed meters is becoming a frequent problem for RE
integrators. I ditto what Hans said about not finding a listing.

What I've seen so far is that Socket based meters are generally NOT listed
by the mfrs since the primary users are utilities and, therefore, listing is
not a "requirement". Even the very expensive super-feature socket-based
meters are not listed and the mfrs (so far) aren't planning to list them.
This applies to self-contained and instrument rated socket-based meters.

Many panel-style meters are UL listed. One example is the ION 6200
http://www.powerlogic.com/literature/PowerLogic%20ION%206200%203000BR606R100
9.pdf

Panel-style meters are commonly listed as Power Circuit and Motor-mounted
Apparatus (NMTR), which is a subcategory of UL 508 Industrial Control
Equipment. General information on this sub category is found here:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?&nam
e=NMTR.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Power+Circuit+and+Motor-mounted+Apparatus&obj
id=1074108450&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073990288&sequ
ence=1  The crazy piece of this listing is that the description lists all
kinds of devices EXCEPT meters as applicable. ??? 

The bonehead stupidity of this situation is that, in order to gain ANSI C12
certification, socket-based meters have to pass some really harsh withstand
tests due to their usual proximity to the grid. Ergo, they are <> for our purposes. What may not be readily apparent is that the
defacto industry-standard for ANSI C12 is for the mfr to self-certify. Which
means they generally don't have 3rd party testing & listing.

I have seen just a couple cases where the AHJ has required UL Listing
initially, but backed down when presented with the ANSI docs and pointed to
the identical meter in use by the utility themselves. The more common result
I'm seeing is that the AHJs are digging in their heels and requiring
Listings. 

Best of luck!

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hans
Frederickson
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 1:47 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL Listing for meter

I scanned the UL White Book and did not find a category listing for bolt-in
or plug-in type watt-hour meters. There are several categories for the meter
sockets. If UL hasn't taken it on, I can't imagine that anyone has paid any
other NRTL to evaluate equipment that typically doesn't require a listing. I
have heard of AHJ's waiving the listing requirements for equipment when no
standard exists... I would suggest to the AHJ that there is no listing for
watt-hour meters so this requirement is impossible to meet.

Regards,
-Hans 



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 12:19 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Congested Panel Problem

This inspector also has a problem with the production meter we installed. He
wanted to see the "UL Listing" on the meter. I called Austin International
(our vendor) about the meter in question (Itron Centron C1S) and they said
that UL doest test meters as they (normally) are not used on the customer
side of the service. Is there another listing for meters that would satisfy
a nit-picky inspector? To make matters worse, we now have in stock both
Itron Centron C1S meters as well as Schlumberger Centron C1S meters. Did
Schlumberger buy out Itron? Or vice versa?

Any help on the main panel calculation and acceptable listings for meter
would be greatly appreciated. 


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885



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Re: [RE-wrenches] AL wire with DC

[Drake Chamberlin]

Aluminum wire got its bad name during the era when it was use in 15 
and 20 amp circuits, with #12 and #10 wire.  That stuff is a 
nightmare.  As an electrician that has cleaned up some of the messes, 
I can supply ample horror stories.


#2 and larger sizes of AL work fine.  It is important to use 
antioxidant on the connections.  Separate copper wire from aluminum 
using a listed splicing device.


Aluminum wire will turn to white powder in an underground cable where 
the insulation has been breached.  This is true for DC or AC.




 At 05:51 PM 7/26/2010, you wrote:
I have used AL wire in DC circuits for 30 years and have never had a 
problem. If you carefully follow the protocols for working with AL 
you should have the same experience. As pointed out the cost 
difference can be staggering. I'm designing an o-t-g 3kW PV system 
now that has this array 1300' from the batteries, AL is the only 
reasonable answer.



From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff 
Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions



SHOCKING: 
2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09
SPECIAL 
REPORT: High ticket items are being auctioned for an incredible 90% off!

ctips.net
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Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648  ___
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