Re: [RE-wrenches] sources of DC equipment

[Warren Lauzon]

LED's pretty much last forever, have a poorer light spectrum.

And what Dan said is basically correct in most cases. On a lumen for lumen 
basis LED's are not much different than CFL''s.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Loesch" 
To: "Dan Fink" ; "RE-wrenches" 


Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sources of DC equipment




Hi Dan,

What am I not understanding?

What is all the furor over LED if this is correct?

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar




- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Fink" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sources of DC equipment


SNIP


Note that NONE of the LED products out there are more efficient than
CFLs, so keep that in mind.

SNIP 


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[RE-wrenches] Entertec service manual

[robert ellison]

Does anyone have access to a service manual for a 4 K Enertec windmill ?
The owner has an operators manual but no service manual..


Thanks,
Bob
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Entertec service manual

[Roy Butler]

Bob,

We may have one here but I won't know until I dig through some
stuff in the barn.stay tuned.
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
PA Sunshine Program Approved PV Installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747

www.four-winds-energy.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

===
The 6th Annual Small Wind Conference
A Gathering of small wind industry stakeholders
June 15 and 16, 2010
Stevens Point, Wisconsin
i...@smallwindconference.com
http://www.smallwindconference.com  


On 4/12/2010 9:44 AM, robert ellison wrote:

  Does anyone have access to a service manual for a 4 K Enertec
windmill ?
  The owner has an operators manual but no service manual..
   
   
  Thanks,
  Bob
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Entertec service manual

[robert ellison]

Just knock the cow and hog shit off it.

Let me know what you need if you have one.

Thanks,
Bob

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Roy Butler wrote:

> Bob,
>
> We may have one here but I won't know until I dig through some
> stuff in the barn.stay tuned.
>
> Roy Butler
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
> NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
> PA Sunshine Program Approved PV Installer
> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
> 8902 Route 46
> Arkport, NY 14807
> 607-324-9747
> www.four-winds-energy.com
>
> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
> ===
> The 6th Annual Small Wind Conference
> A Gathering of small wind industry stakeholders
> June 15 and 16, 2010
> Stevens Point, 
> wisconsini...@smallwindconference.comhttp://www.smallwindconference.com
>
>
> On 4/12/2010 9:44 AM, robert ellison wrote:
>
>   Does anyone have access to a service manual for a 4 K Enertec windmill ?
> The owner has an operators manual but no service manual..
>
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing

[Warren Lauzon]

I would never design such a system. That is what MPPT controllers are for. 10 
years ago we did not have that choice, but now we do, so there is no reason at 
all to design a 40 amp 12 volt array circuit.

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kent Osterberg 
  To: Wrenches 
  Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:22 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing


  Here's my challenge to all of you that want to design for 1% or 1.5% voltage 
drop all the time:
  Take a 50-ft circuit carrying 40 amps at 12 volts, going to a C40 charge 
controller, select your wire size for 1% or 1.5% loss. You know that's not a 
practical solution.  I know that it makes more sense to replace the charge 
controller and run the PV circuit at a higher voltage.

  At % loss did it become impractical?  Ray's answer and my answer is "when 
there is a cheaper alternative -- lower cost per watt out or lower cost per kWh 
over the project life."  And that answer works even when you are considering a 
400-kW PV array that is 1000 feet away.

  Kent Osterberg
  Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Entertec service manual

[robert ellison]

OOPS this was not intended to go to the group sorry..

Bob

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:08 AM, robert ellison wrote:

> Just knock the cow and hog shit off it.
>
> Let me know what you need if you have one.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>
>   On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Roy Butler 
> wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> We may have one here but I won't know until I dig through some
>> stuff in the barn.stay tuned.
>>
>> Roy Butler
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
>> NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
>> PA Sunshine Program Approved PV Installer
>> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
>> 8902 Route 46
>> Arkport, NY 14807
>> 607-324-9747
>> www.four-winds-energy.com
>>
>> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
>> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>
>> ===
>> The 6th Annual Small Wind Conference
>> A Gathering of small wind industry stakeholders
>> June 15 and 16, 2010
>> Stevens Point, 
>> wisconsini...@smallwindconference.comhttp://www.smallwindconference.com
>>
>>
>> On 4/12/2010 9:44 AM, robert ellison wrote:
>>
>>   Does anyone have access to a service manual for a 4 K Enertec windmill
>> ?
>> The owner has an operators manual but no service manual..
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Entertec service manual

[frenergy]

...and there it went again. gotta love it

Bill
Feather River Solar Electric



  - Original Message - 
  From: robert ellison 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Entertec service manual


  OOPS this was not intended to go to the group sorry..

  Bob


  On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:08 AM, robert ellison  wrote:

Just knock the cow and hog shit off it.

Let me know what you need if you have one.

Thanks,
Bob


On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Roy Butler  
wrote:

  Bob,

  We may have one here but I won't know until I dig through some
  stuff in the barn.stay tuned.

Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
PA Sunshine Program Approved PV Installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747

www.four-winds-energy.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

===
The 6th Annual Small Wind Conference
A Gathering of small wind industry stakeholders
June 15 and 16, 2010
Stevens Point, Wisconsin
i...@smallwindconference.com
http://www.smallwindconference.com  

  On 4/12/2010 9:44 AM, robert ellison wrote: 
Does anyone have access to a service manual for a 4 K Enertec windmill ?
The owner has an operators manual but no service manual..


Thanks,
Bob

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  No virus found in this incoming message.
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[RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

[Chris Schaefer]

Good Day Wrenches,

I'm looking for suggestions for a low cost DAS system for
home/small commercial use. It just seems to be such a useful basic tool to
verify performance other than just the Kwh meter. I'd like to add this to
all of our clients quotes and projects. Looking for the basics like module
temperature and irradiance and it would be nice if it would tie into the
existing inverters DAS like an Enphase, Fronius or SMA to name a few since
they already have inverter and PV in/output information. Or is Fat Spaniel
and Helitronics my only options otherwise? Thanks for the help ahead of
time.

 

Christopher

 

Solar & Wind FX  Chris Schaefer's

 

 


 


WHERE KNOWLEDGE EQUALS POWER INDEPENDENCE


 

Specializing in Off-Grid Electricity for Remote Homes

Grid-Tied Power for Residential and Commercial Sites

 

Tel 585-229-2083 ~ Cell 585-748-1870

5115 South Hill Road

Canandaigua New York 14424

www.solarandwindfx.com   ~
ch...@solarandwindfx.com

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

Chris,

 

I've had one of my guys research this same question a while ago and the
conclusion was the as far as low-cost DAS systems, Fat Spaniel was the big
winner, as in under $1,000 which includes a year's worth of monitoring.

 

Cheers,

marco

 

Good Day Wrenches,

I'm looking for suggestions for a low cost DAS system for
home/small commercial use. It just seems to be such a useful basic tool to
verify performance other than just the Kwh meter. I'd like to add this to
all of our clients quotes and projects. Looking for the basics like module
temperature and irradiance and it would be nice if it would tie into the
existing inverters DAS like an Enphase, Fronius or SMA to name a few since
they already have inverter and PV in/output information. Or is Fat Spaniel
and Helitronics my only options otherwise? Thanks for the help ahead of
time.

 

Christopher

 

Solar & Wind FX  Chris Schaefer's

 

 


 


WHERE KNOWLEDGE EQUALS POWER INDEPENDENCE


 

Specializing in Off-Grid Electricity for Remote Homes

Grid-Tied Power for Residential and Commercial Sites

 

Tel 585-229-2083 ~ Cell 585-748-1870

5115 South Hill Road

Canandaigua New York 14424

www.solarandwindfx.com   ~
ch...@solarandwindfx.com

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2805 - Release Date: 04/11/10
08:32:00

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[RE-wrenches] Home energy monitoring was (low cost DAS systems)

[Alex Cozine]

I'm looking at TED 5002-c. The Energy Detective tech says that you can
monitor home usage as well as the inverter.  It's sent to a transmitter and
wireless to your computer to view energy usage and inverter production.

Any experience with this product?

What types of home energy monitoring devices are others using out there for
their customers?

-- 
Alex Cozine
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Brothers Electric & Solar
brotherselectricsolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Home energy monitoring was (low cost DAS systems)

[wlbryce]

We have used several systems produced by APRS World with great results.

Here is a example of some of the data on 2 different systems.
BTW, not a great wind day in Montana.

http://data2.aprsworld.com/data/ps2/current.php?station_id=A2439

http://data.aprsworld.com/sites/midnite/montana/

As for the TED, it does work and if combined with the google power meter
it is a good solution. I have used the Fat Spaniel for over 4 years on a
SWWP Sky Stream and I would never spend my money on that system.

Just my two cents from the wind side, and we never sell a system without
some sort of DAQ, so the end user knows what his turbine is producing!

Logan

www.pineridgeproducts.com
www.chinookturbines.com

> I'm looking at TED 5002-c. The Energy Detective tech says that you can
> monitor home usage as well as the inverter.  It's sent to a transmitter
> and
> wireless to your computer to view energy usage and inverter production.
>
> Any experience with this product?
>
> What types of home energy monitoring devices are others using out there
> for
> their customers?
>
> --
> Alex Cozine
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> Brothers Electric & Solar
> brotherselectricsolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Home energy monitoring was (low cost DAS systems)

[Philip Boutelle]

I really like the eGauge (http://www.egauge.net/index.php), and have one on
my house : http://egauge68.d.egauge.net/. It's a small operation out of
Boulder.

The device uses CTs and voltage taps, so you can measure just about
anything, like any specific sub-circuits or loads in addition to the main
house and PV inverter output circuits. It has a built-in internal Homeplug
adapter, so the customer just needs to put a small wall adapter at their
router to post their data to the website. I've never worked with wind
systems but as long as there is an AC circuit to monitor, you can put CTs on
it.

The downside is that you don't get an automated alarm if the inverter goes
down, which you can get from Fat Spaniel, Energy Recommerce (now Solar
Magic), etc. But the eGauge system is simple and pretty cheap, and you also
don't pay any monthly fees like you have to with the others.

My favorite thing about it is the interface; the graph makes so much sense
and is nearly live. We've installed 8 of these over the last couple years,
and the customers love them, because it makes their energy use patterns so
clear.



Phil Boutelle

Project Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer TM
Real Goods Solar, Inc.

831.477.0943 office
831.359.5268 mobile

831.477.0944 fax
www.RealGoodsSolar.com 


On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:40 AM,  wrote:

> We have used several systems produced by APRS World with great results.
>
> Here is a example of some of the data on 2 different systems.
> BTW, not a great wind day in Montana.
>
> http://data2.aprsworld.com/data/ps2/current.php?station_id=A2439
>
> http://data.aprsworld.com/sites/midnite/montana/
>
> As for the TED, it does work and if combined with the google power meter
> it is a good solution. I have used the Fat Spaniel for over 4 years on a
> SWWP Sky Stream and I would never spend my money on that system.
>
> Just my two cents from the wind side, and we never sell a system without
> some sort of DAQ, so the end user knows what his turbine is producing!
>
> Logan
>
> www.pineridgeproducts.com
> www.chinookturbines.com
>
> > I'm looking at TED 5002-c. The Energy Detective tech says that you can
> > monitor home usage as well as the inverter.  It's sent to a transmitter
> > and
> > wireless to your computer to view energy usage and inverter production.
> >
> > Any experience with this product?
> >
> > What types of home energy monitoring devices are others using out there
> > for
> > their customers?
> >
> > --
> > Alex Cozine
> > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> > Brothers Electric & Solar
> > brotherselectricsolar.com
> > ___
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> >
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> >
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Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

[Jeff Irish]

Chris,

 

Locus Energy has a low cost, revenue grade system that will work with
all inverters.  We have several dozen deployed and they're working well.
Customer needs to have a high speed internet connection.

 

www.locusenergy.com  

 

I've tried the TED and found it to be more of a toy than a serious
contractor product, although it may meet some user's needs.  The Locus
system is more accurate and robust, with much greater data storage.  

 

Jeff Irish

Hudson Valley Clean Energy

 

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:12 PM
To: ch...@solarandwindfx.com; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

 

Chris,

 

I've had one of my guys research this same question a while ago and the
conclusion was the as far as low-cost DAS systems, Fat Spaniel was the
big winner, as in under $1,000 which includes a year's worth of
monitoring.

 

Cheers,

marco

 

Good Day Wrenches,

I'm looking for suggestions for a low cost DAS system for
home/small commercial use. It just seems to be such a useful basic tool
to verify performance other than just the Kwh meter. I'd like to add
this to all of our clients quotes and projects. Looking for the basics
like module temperature and irradiance and it would be nice if it would
tie into the existing inverters DAS like an Enphase, Fronius or SMA to
name a few since they already have inverter and PV in/output
information. Or is Fat Spaniel and Helitronics my only options
otherwise? Thanks for the help ahead of time.

 

Christopher

  

   Chris Schaefer's

 

 


 


WHERE KNOWLEDGE EQUALS POWER INDEPENDENCE


 

Specializing in Off-Grid Electricity for Remote Homes

Grid-Tied Power for Residential and Commercial Sites

 

Tel 585-229-2083 ~ Cell 585-748-1870

5115 South Hill Road

Canandaigua New York 14424

www.solarandwindfx.com   ~ 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2805 - Release Date: 04/11/10
08:32:00

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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing

[Kent Osterberg]

I know you wouldn't, Warren.  Because it is much more economical (that
means more kWh/$) to use a MPPT controller.  But you would run a
100-volt 30-amp PV array to a MPPT charge controller that is 150 feet
away.  For that distance, it takes 1/0 wire to get the wire loss down
to 1%.  I'd probably settle for using 3 AWG copper with 2% loss.  With
the smaller wire, the looses are 29 watts more, but the system cost is
less by at least $700.  At $700/29 watts = $24/watt, the 1/0 wire is
not a good choice.

My question is: what is the rational for using 1% loss as the design
objective.  Why not 1/2%?  Why not 2%?
So far no one has offered an answer to that question; despite many
claiming that 1% or 1.5% is always their design objective.

In Home Power issue 104, December 2004 - January 2005, I showed that
striving for low voltage drops in low-voltage systems doesn't mean
you've got a good (economical) design.  The spreadsheet I created for
that article is no longer available, but one that is easier to use is
available from Ray Walters' web site.  In SolarPro 3.2, February -
March 2010, Blake Gleason shows an example where upsizing the wire size
to get 2.6% loss is not economical.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.


Warren Lauzon wrote:

  
  
  
  I would never design such a
system. That is what MPPT controllers are for. 10 years ago we did not
have that choice, but now we do, so there is no reason at all to design
a 40 amp 12 volt array circuit.
   
  ..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Kent Osterberg 
To:
Wrenches 
Sent:
Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:22 AM
Subject:
[RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing


Here's my challenge to all of you that want to design for 1% or 1.5%
voltage drop all the time:
Take a 50-ft circuit carrying 40 amps at 12 volts, going to a C40
charge controller, select your wire size for 1% or 1.5% loss. You know
that's not a practical solution.  I know that it makes more sense to
replace the charge controller and run the PV circuit at a higher
voltage.

At % loss did it become impractical?  Ray's answer and my
answer is "when there is a cheaper alternative -- lower cost per watt
out or lower cost per kWh over the project life."  And that answer
works even when you are considering a 400-kW PV array that is 1000 feet
away.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
  



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Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

[wlbryce]

I think the big this here is Low cost? Maybe we should define the price
range so we can get a better fell of the product range?


Logan


> Chris,
>
>
>
> Locus Energy has a low cost, revenue grade system that will work with
> all inverters.  We have several dozen deployed and they're working well.
> Customer needs to have a high speed internet connection.
>
>
>
> www.locusenergy.com 
>
>
>
> I've tried the TED and found it to be more of a toy than a serious
> contractor product, although it may meet some user's needs.  The Locus
> system is more accurate and robust, with much greater data storage.
>
>
>
> Jeff Irish
>
> Hudson Valley Clean Energy
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
> Mangelsdorf
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:12 PM
> To: ch...@solarandwindfx.com; 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> I've had one of my guys research this same question a while ago and the
> conclusion was the as far as low-cost DAS systems, Fat Spaniel was the
> big winner, as in under $1,000 which includes a year's worth of
> monitoring.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> marco
>
>
>
> Good Day Wrenches,
>
> I'm looking for suggestions for a low cost DAS system for
> home/small commercial use. It just seems to be such a useful basic tool
> to verify performance other than just the Kwh meter. I'd like to add
> this to all of our clients quotes and projects. Looking for the basics
> like module temperature and irradiance and it would be nice if it would
> tie into the existing inverters DAS like an Enphase, Fronius or SMA to
> name a few since they already have inverter and PV in/output
> information. Or is Fat Spaniel and Helitronics my only options
> otherwise? Thanks for the help ahead of time.
>
>
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
>Chris Schaefer's
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> WHERE KNOWLEDGE EQUALS POWER INDEPENDENCE
>
>
>
>
> Specializing in Off-Grid Electricity for Remote Homes
>
> Grid-Tied Power for Residential and Commercial Sites
>
>
>
> Tel 585-229-2083 ~ Cell 585-748-1870
>
> 5115 South Hill Road
>
> Canandaigua New York 14424
>
> www.solarandwindfx.com   ~
> ch...@solarandwindfx.com
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2805 - Release Date: 04/11/10
> 08:32:00
>
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>


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[RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators

[benn kilburn]

Wrenches,
Can anyone in the off-grid market, in colder climate regions (i'm at latitude 
53) suggest or recommend a reliable diesel generator for off-gird home back-up. 
 It will likely be coupled with two Outback VFX3648's and a 1500 to 2500 amp/hr 
battery.  Any experiences with pairing Lister generators with an auto-start set 
up?  Northern Lights Generators has also come highly recommended, any 
experiences?
Also, for this colder region, i'm looking for pros/cons of having the back-up 
gen installed indoors (garage or shop) as opposed to outdoors; to protect it 
somewhat from the extreme cold weather so it will have less trouble starting 
when it is needed.
Thanks in advance.benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY



CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:This email, including any attachments, contains 
information from DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. and/or its affiliates, which may 
be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of 
the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be 
aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this 
information is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please 
notify the sender immediately by "reply to sender only" message and destroy all 
electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments.

  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems

[Jeff Irish]

The Locus system is less than $1,000 for single phase.
Jeff

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems


I think the big this here is Low cost? Maybe we should define the price
range so we can get a better fell of the product range?


Logan


> Chris,
>
>
>
> Locus Energy has a low cost, revenue grade system that will work with
> all inverters.  We have several dozen deployed and they're working
well.
> Customer needs to have a high speed internet connection.
>
>
>
> www.locusenergy.com 
>
>
>
> I've tried the TED and found it to be more of a toy than a serious
> contractor product, although it may meet some user's needs.  The Locus
> system is more accurate and robust, with much greater data storage.
>
>
>
> Jeff Irish
>
> Hudson Valley Clean Energy
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
> Mangelsdorf
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:12 PM
> To: ch...@solarandwindfx.com; 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] low cost DAS systems
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> I've had one of my guys research this same question a while ago and
the
> conclusion was the as far as low-cost DAS systems, Fat Spaniel was the
> big winner, as in under $1,000 which includes a year's worth of
> monitoring.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> marco
>
>
>
> Good Day Wrenches,
>
> I'm looking for suggestions for a low cost DAS system for
> home/small commercial use. It just seems to be such a useful basic
tool
> to verify performance other than just the Kwh meter. I'd like to add
> this to all of our clients quotes and projects. Looking for the basics
> like module temperature and irradiance and it would be nice if it
would
> tie into the existing inverters DAS like an Enphase, Fronius or SMA to
> name a few since they already have inverter and PV in/output
> information. Or is Fat Spaniel and Helitronics my only options
> otherwise? Thanks for the help ahead of time.
>
>
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
>Chris Schaefer's
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> WHERE KNOWLEDGE EQUALS POWER INDEPENDENCE
>
>
>
>
> Specializing in Off-Grid Electricity for Remote Homes
>
> Grid-Tied Power for Residential and Commercial Sites
>
>
>
> Tel 585-229-2083 ~ Cell 585-748-1870
>
> 5115 South Hill Road
>
> Canandaigua New York 14424
>
> www.solarandwindfx.com   ~
> ch...@solarandwindfx.com
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2805 - Release Date:
04/11/10
> 08:32:00
>
> ___
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>


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[RE-wrenches] 600VDC Safety Switch question

[Allan Sindelar]

Wrenches,
We need recommendation of a 200A or larger (400A or 600A preferred)
two-pole or three-pole,
double-throw, 600VDC rated, manually
operated, load-break-
and load-make-rated, service-equipment rated,
fusible or nonfusible safety switch for purposes of switching DC input.


Square
D 82345R and H82345 are rated only 250VDC in a fine-print note in their
catalog. 

I don't think that what I'm asking for exists, but wiser Wrenches may
prevail. Can anyone suggest another brand and product model that meets
these
requirements?

Thank you,
Allan

-- 






 



Allan Sindelar
Allan@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators

[Steve Higgins]

Benn, 

 

The only thing I have heard about NL generators was about 5 years ago
there were some issues with a generator in Alaska that used a capacitive
coupled regulator that didn't like the way Outback loaded it down when
charging batteries.   The only thing that helped was the addition of a
$600 dollar tank circuit that helped but didn't really fix the problem.


 

The customer ended replacing the Regulator with an electronic control
that finally fixed the issue. 

 

Steve Higgins. 

Sr Application Engineer. 

Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. 

Outback Power Systems. 

 19009 62nd Ave Ne 

Arlington Wa 98223

360-618-4313

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of benn
kilburn
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:36 PM
To: Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators

 

Wrenches,

 

Can anyone in the off-grid market, in colder climate regions (i'm at
latitude 53) suggest or recommend a reliable diesel generator for
off-gird home back-up.  It will likely be coupled with two Outback
VFX3648's and a 1500 to 2500 amp/hr battery.  

Any experiences with pairing Lister generators with an auto-start set
up?  

Northern Lights Generators has also come highly recommended, any
experiences?

 

Also, for this colder region, i'm looking for pros/cons of having the
back-up gen installed indoors (garage or shop) as opposed to outdoors;
to protect it somewhat from the extreme cold weather so it will have
less trouble starting when it is needed.

 

Thanks in advance.

benn


DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 

b...@daystarsolar.ca

780-906-7807 

HAVE A SUNNY DAY 

 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:This email, including any attachments,
contains information from DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. and/or its
affiliates, which may be confidential or privileged. The information is
intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If
you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure,
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is
prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the
sender immediately by "reply to sender only" message and destroy all
electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments.

 

 



Hotmail & Messenger. Get them on your phone now.
 


MESSAGE CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
This message (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communication 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Heat pump water heater

[Ken Schaal]

William

The key to effective HPWH's is location--- It will need a space large 
enough, or with sufficient thermal mass, to provide fairly constant temps 
above 50+ *. Ideally 65+, but not above 100 or so.Also, humidity is a large 
component of there efficiency factor--the more the better! We've put them in 
closed crawl spaces ( pretty dry ), basements ( good choice, especially if 
damp with a big wood stove ) or a sunroom/greenhouse if it doesn't over 
heat. They will not be completely silent, so take that into acount.


Remember not to 'rob peter to pay paul'--- you'll need a location that gets 
free humidity and heat. If you can benefit from the cool air byproduct, so 
much the better ! But the common location for an electric strip WH, like 
under the stairs, in the utility room, etc. would not be a good choice. A 
garage ? depends on the climate your in-- Southern California ? probably 
works well.


Ken




- Original Message - 
From: "William Korthof" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat pump water heater



Does anyone have experience with heat pump water heaters?

There are a couple units available now and they seem great---I just 
purchased one from
Lowes (GE "hybrid" water heater), which has a 700 watt heat pump and 2 
standard 4500
watt heating elements... the "brains" of the water heater let you select 
several operating

modes:
-heat pump only
-heat pump with limited resistive backup
-heat pump with maximum resistive backup
-resistive heating only

The unit has a rated COP of 2.35, which should mean 2.35 kWh of heating 
for each
kWh of electrical load (presumably in mode #2 or #1), and the DOE energy 
sticker shows
the thing using ~1800 kWh per year, compared to standard tanks using ~5000 
kWh/year.


For the $1600 price, it seems like a no-brainer replacement for any 
regularly used
electric tank heater--- and with this efficiency, I'm wondering how it 
might compete
against the other hot water options: gas tank, propane, solar, 
tankless
Rather than DHW solar, it now make more sense in many cases to just have a 
heat pump
water heater + a few more PV modules all electric, and no solar hot 
water maintenance.


/wk
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2805 - Release Date: 04/11/10 
14:32:00


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators

[penobscotsolar]

Ben,
   Here in Maine we don't install diesel gennies in off grid applications.
Typically, diesel gennies require a block heater which can use as much
as 1000 watts. Unless this is a tremendously large off grid system it
won't be a good idea to go that way.
   Why not just use a propane gennie. They are far more reliable, cleaner
burning, typical off grid homes use propane anyway for cooking, at a
minimum. It also does not require pre heating to start.
   Just my two cents.

Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Penobscot Solar Design




>
> Wrenches,
> Can anyone in the off-grid market, in colder climate regions (i'm at
> latitude 53) suggest or recommend a reliable diesel generator for off-gird
> home back-up.  It will likely be coupled with two Outback VFX3648's and a
> 1500 to 2500 amp/hr battery.  Any experiences with pairing Lister
> generators with an auto-start set up?  Northern Lights Generators has also
> come highly recommended, any experiences?
> Also, for this colder region, i'm looking for pros/cons of having the
> back-up gen installed indoors (garage or shop) as opposed to outdoors; to
> protect it somewhat from the extreme cold weather so it will have less
> trouble starting when it is needed.
> Thanks in advance.benn
> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A
> SUNNY DAY
>
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:This email, including any attachments, contains
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 600VDC Safety Switch question

[August Goers]

Allan -

What is the application? Are you trying to switch a large PV array before the 
inverter but after the strings have been fused and combined?

-August

August Goers


Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
www.luminalt.com


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar 
[al...@positiveenergysolar.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600VDC Safety Switch question

Wrenches,
We need recommendation of a 200A or larger (400A or 600A preferred) two-pole or 
three-pole, double-throw, 600VDC rated, manually operated, load-break- and 
load-make-rated, service-equipment rated, fusible or nonfusible safety switch 
for purposes of switching DC input.

Square D 82345R and H82345 are rated only 250VDC in a fine-print note in their 
catalog.

I don't think that what I'm asking for exists, but wiser Wrenches may prevail. 
Can anyone suggest another brand and product model that meets these 
requirements?

Thank you,
Allan
--
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 600VDC Safety Switch question

[Allan Sindelar]

August,
Precisely. And it's a dumb idea, I know. But it's part of a
utility-scale RFP, and it specifically calls out switching the DC
input. This is too early a stage in the process to figure out better
approaches; first we have to qualify for the job. 

Surprisingly, Boltswitch makes one, and it's cheaper than SqD. So we
may have found an answer, but I'm still listening for other ideas.
Thank you,
Allan








 
 

Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing

[Nick Soleil]

I haven't checked my e-mail for days, but have to add to this topic.
Hi Kent:
In a few isolated situations, a cost analysis may be done to justify not 
designing at 1-2% DC Voltage drops, but for most systems the cost of the wire 
is less than the cost of the PV.  I buy my wire for about 1/4 the cost of your 
analysis.  I would ask you to look closer at your next design, and consider 
designing at a lower voltage drop than 3%.  

 Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:707-769-9037





From: Bob-O Schultze 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 10:26:56 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing

Of course it's not a practical solution, which is why we strived for (but 
rarely got) 2% VD on low voltage situations as I said in my first post. The 
obvious reply to this post is that your scenario isn't real world anymore. MPPT 
controllers fixed that. Or perhaps you advocate that MPPT controllers are just 
too expensive too? I could easily come up with a scenario where a C40 and big 
wire is less expensive than using MPPT and smaller wire. But is that good 
design? I don't think so.
My point -and one which you apparently dismiss out of hand- is just that 
cheaper is not always better. Good design and best practices rarely go hand in 
hand with cheaper.
Waste is waste. Along those same lines, I'll repeat something a friend of mine 
recently said, "If you like getting your oil from Saudi Arabia, you're gonna 
love getting your PV from China. " It's cheaper, right?
Ya know?
Bob-O


On Apr 10, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:

Here's my challenge to all of you that want to design for 1% or 1.5%
voltage drop all the time:
Take a 50-ft circuit carrying 40 amps at 12 volts, going to a C40
charge controller, select your wire size for 1% or 1.5% loss. You know
that's not a practical solution.  I know that it makes more sense to
replace the charge controller and run the PV circuit at a higher
voltage.

At % loss did it become impractical?  Ray's answer and my answer
is "when there is a cheaper alternative -- lower cost per watt out or
lower cost per kWh over the project life."  And that answer works even
when you are considering a 400-kW PV array that is 1000 feet away.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators

[benn kilburn]

Steve,Thanks for the feedback.  A Northern Lights dealer i spoke with is 
selling Outback equipment as well.  I'll bring this up with him to see if he 
has seen this issue and how they have dealt with it.cheers,benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY



CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:This email, including any attachments, contains 
information from DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. and/or its affiliates, which may 
be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of 
the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be 
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:02:05 -0700
From: shigg...@outbackpower.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators



















Benn, 

 

The only thing I have heard about NL generators was about 5
years ago there were some issues with a generator in Alaska that used a 
capacitive
coupled regulator that didn’t like the way Outback loaded it down when
charging batteries.   The only thing that helped was the addition of
a $600 dollar tank circuit that helped but didn’t really fix the problem. 


 

The customer ended replacing the Regulator with an electronic
control that finally fixed the issue. 

 



Steve Higgins. 

Sr Application Engineer. 

Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. 

Outback Power Systems. 

 19009 62nd Ave Ne 

Arlington Wa 98223

360-618-4313

 



 





From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of benn
kilburn

Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:36 PM

To: Wrenches

Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators





 

Wrenches,



 





Can
anyone in the off-grid market, in colder climate regions (i'm at latitude 53)
suggest or recommend a reliable diesel generator for off-gird home back-up.
 It will likely be coupled with two Outback VFX3648's and a 1500
to 2500 amp/hr battery.  





Any
experiences with pairing Lister generators with an auto-start set up?  





Northern
Lights Generators has also come highly recommended, any experiences?





 





Also,
for this colder region, i'm looking for pros/cons of having the back-up gen
installed indoors (garage or shop) as opposed to outdoors; to protect it
somewhat from the extreme cold weather so it will have less trouble starting
when it is needed.





 





Thanks
in advance.





benn







DayStar
Renewable Energy Inc. 





b...@daystarsolar.ca





780-906-7807 





HAVE
A SUNNY DAY 





 





CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE:This email, including any attachments,
contains information from DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. and/or its affiliates,
which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for
the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the
contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this email in 
error,
please notify the sender immediately by "reply to sender only"
message and destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication,
including attachments.





 



 







Hotmail
& Messenger. Get
them on your phone now.







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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing

[Kent Osterberg]

Nick,

Yes, the wire prices I used were way out there, but I wanted to use a
currently published value that everyone has access to.  It only takes a
few minutes to update wire prices in a spreadsheet so I look at the
value of larger wire for every job.  I'm not trying to promote large
wire losses -- on many grid connect jobs, I end up running less than 1%
loss on the dc side.  Higher values usually make sense for long
circuits to pole top structures.

I think every wrench that reads this list has an intuitive notion that
larger wire at some point becomes impractical.  But no one yet has been
able to provide any support for the notion that 1% is the best choice. 
Or why 1/2% or 2% isn't better.  The fact is that forcing the wire
losses down to 1% is sometimes past the point of any economic return
and folks are pushing designs to that standard without looking at the
costs and benefits.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.


Nick Soleil wrote:

  
  I
haven't checked my e-mail for days, but have to add to this topic.
    Hi Kent:
In a few isolated situations, a cost analysis may be done to justify
not designing at 1-2% DC Voltage drops, but for most systems the cost
of the wire is less than the cost of the PV.  I buy my wire for about
1/4 the cost of your analysis.  I would ask you to look closer at your
next design, and consider designing at a lower voltage drop than 3%.  
   
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037
  
  
  
  
  From:
Bob-O Schultze 
  To: RE-wrenches

  Sent: Sat, April 10,
2010 10:26:56 AM
  Subject: Re:
[RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing
  
  
Of course it's not a practical solution, which is why we strived for
(but rarely got) 2% VD on low voltage situations as I said in my first
post. The obvious reply to this post is that your scenario isn't real
world anymore. MPPT controllers fixed that. Or perhaps you advocate
that MPPT controllers are just too expensive too? I could easily come
up with a scenario where a C40 and big wire is less expensive than
using MPPT and smaller wire. But is that good design? I don't think so.
  My point -and one which you apparently dismiss out of hand- is
just that cheaper is not always better. Good design and best practices
rarely go hand in hand with cheaper.
  Waste is waste. Along those same lines, I'll repeat something a
friend of mine recently said, "If you like getting your oil from Saudi
Arabia, you're gonna love getting your PV from China. " It's cheaper,
right?
  Ya know?
  Bob-O
  
  
  On Apr 10, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
  
  
Here's my challenge to all of you that want to design for 1% or 1.5%
voltage drop all the time:
Take a 50-ft circuit carrying 40 amps at 12 volts, going to a C40
charge controller, select your wire size for 1% or 1.5% loss. You know
that's not a practical solution.  I know that it makes more sense to
replace the charge controller and run the PV circuit at a higher
voltage.
  
  At % loss did it become impractical?  Ray's answer and my
answer
is "when there is a cheaper alternative -- lower cost per watt out or
lower cost per kWh over the project life."  And that answer works even
when you are considering a 400-kW PV array that is 1000 feet away.
  
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi all for what it is worth, I have heard of strange things with the northern 
lights and other inverters.  ( think it was about switching spikes when working 
with inverters)  This seems to be special with the northern lights generator.

--- On Mon, 4/12/10, benn kilburn  wrote:

From: benn kilburn 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators
To: "Wrenches" 
Date: Monday, April 12, 2010, 9:22 PM




Steve,Thanks for the feedback.  A Northern Lights dealer i spoke with is 
selling Outback equipment as well.  I'll bring this up with him to see if he 
has seen this issue and how they have dealt with it.cheers,benn

DayStar Renewable Energy inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 have A SUNNY DAY



CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:    This email, including any attachments, contains 
information from DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. and/or its affiliates, which may 
be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of 
the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be 
aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this 
information is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please 
notify the sender immediately by "reply to sender only" message and destroy all 
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Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:02:05 -0700
From: shigg...@outbackpower.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators










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Benn, 

 

The only thing I have heard about NL generators was about 5
years ago there were some issues with a generator in Alaska that used a 
capacitive
coupled regulator that didn’t like the way Outback loaded it down when
charging batteries.   The only thing that helped was the addition of
a $600 dollar tank circuit that helped but didn’t really fix the problem. 


 

The customer ended replacing the Regulator with an electronic
control that finally fixed the issue. 

 



Steve Higgins. 

Sr Application Engineer. 

Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. 

Outback Power Systems. 

 19009 62nd Ave Ne 

Arlington Wa 98223

360-618-4313

 



 





From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of benn
kilburn

Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:36 PM

To: Wrenches

Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators





 

Wrenches,



 





Can
anyone in the off-grid market, in colder climate regions (i'm at latitude 53)
suggest or recommend a reliable diesel generator for off-gird home back-up.
 It will likely be coupled with two Outback VFX3648's and a 1500
to 2500 amp/hr battery.  





Any
experiences with pairing Lister generators with an auto-start set up?  





Northern
Lights Generators has also come highly recommended, any experiences?





 





Also,
for this colder region, i'm looking for pros/cons of having the back-up gen
installed indoors (garage or shop) as opposed to outdoors; to protect it
somewhat from the extreme cold weather so it will have less trouble starting
when it is needed.





 





Thanks
in advance.





benn







DayStar
Renewable Energy Inc. 





b...@daystarsolar.ca





780-906-7807 





HAVE
A SUNNY DAY 





 





CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE:    This email, including any attachments,
contains information from DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. and/or its affiliates,
which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for
the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the
contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this email in 
error,
please notify the sender immediately by "reply to sender only"
message and destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication,
including attachments.





 



 







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MESSAGE CONFIDENTIALIT

Re: [RE-wrenches] 600VDC Safety Switch question

[Bill Brooks]

Allan,

 

Square D makes 2-, 3-, and 4-pole models from 30 amps to 1200 amps that are
600Vdc rated. They have by far the most selection of any company at the
moment. The 200-Amp and up versions must pass through two poles of the same
switch. I'm using 3, 2-pole 600A units on 500 kW inverters at the moment. It
all depends on the layout of your combiner boxes. Let me know when you are
ready to do some design work. It ain't residential.

 

Bill.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:30 PM
To: August Goers
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 600VDC Safety Switch question

 

August,
Precisely. And it's a dumb idea, I know. But it's part of a utility-scale
RFP, and it specifically calls out switching the DC input. This is too early
a stage in the process to figure out better approaches; first we have to
qualify for the job. 

Surprisingly, Boltswitch makes one, and it's cheaper than SqD. So we may
have found an answer, but I'm still listening for other ideas.
Thank you,
Allan

Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com



August Goers wrote: 

Allan -

 

What is the application? Are you trying to switch a large PV array before
the inverter but after the strings have been fused and combined?

 

-August

 

August Goers

 

 

Luminalt Energy Corporation

O: 415.564.7652

M: 415.559.1525

F: 650.244.9167

  www.luminalt.com

 

  _  

From:  
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [

re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar [
 al...@positiveenergysolar.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600VDC Safety Switch question

Wrenches,
We need recommendation of a 200A or larger (400A or 600A preferred) two-pole
or three-pole, double-throw, 600VDC rated, manually operated, load-break-
and load-make-rated, service-equipment rated, fusible or nonfusible safety
switch for purposes of switching DC input. 

Square D 82345R and H82345 are rated only 250VDC in a fine-print note in
their catalog. 

I don't think that what I'm asking for exists, but wiser Wrenches may
prevail. Can anyone suggest another brand and product model that meets these
requirements?

Thank you,
Allan

-- 

Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] sources of DC equipment

[Kurt Albershardt]

On Apr 11, 2010, at 9:11 , Darryl Thayer wrote:

> Where are people getting 24 or 32 or 48 volt CFLs?   Are  there any LED now 
> suitable at these voltages? 


Others have commented on the general state of things DC - I have a slightly 
different perspective coming form a telecom background and tend to use DC for 
critical systems.  If you run your emergency lighting, control systems, and 
alarms on DC you get value for money in my book.  24V nominal is probably the 
best compromise, as 12V has an awful lot of voltage drop and 48V gets you into 
a different realm with the NEC (note that 24V nominal fits in the <30V category 
with battery charging and equalization and opens up a whole lot of options 
there.)

As to LED lighting, I concur that it is best suited to certain things - notably 
task lighting and low level (e.g. emergency egress) as well as low temperature 
(refrigerated cases, walk-in freezers, etc.) applications.  A wide range of 
commercially available architectural LED lighting is available that runs on 12V 
or 24V (if you read between the lines - look for drivers or PSUs in the product 
listings) and actually dominates certain segments like display case lighting 
and track lighting.  I'll be cruising LightFair with a sharp eye towards LEDs 
next month.








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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Wire Sizing (Ethics & VDrop)

[Ryan LeBlanc]

Kent, 

Nice to meet you I've enjoyed your past posts and I like what you wrote
below, and I definitely understand that you're just roughing it.  

Sometimes I hear people say we should "Add more PV," even when it doesn't
necessarily solve our problem.  Most often it's not that easy to add more
PV, or we likely would've.  We are typically either at the clients budget
limit, the inverters limits (P,V,A,Strings, etc.), we could be at a Megawatt
PTC, so no more rebate on that PV, or we have used up all the unshaded space
on the roof, etc.  And if that's no trouble, with more PV comes more
racking, install time, and with more power at a ceiling voltage (Inv
Input/NEC 600V)... we end up with more amps, which means bigger wire
anyways.  Then of course, the whole thing costs more.  

For the chart below, would you think that instead of the straight module
price of $3.00W or whatever we SELL them for, not bought them for...  Would
you think a more fair number would be closer to the installed cost of
$8.00/W or whatever we sell it for?  In which case, #8 would make sense.

If one sells a system at the NEC minimum recommendations, with significant
voltage drop, I say fine, as long as you gave the client an accurate
production estimate and the financial numbers still work for them, and as
long as those conductors last as long and perform as you estimated.  Once we
tell a client, "Your system will produce X, and cost X."  We have to
ethically and, often contractually, give them that.  If you have to pull
that wire in a few years, due to module voltage degradation and exacerbated
excessive Vdrop, with an inverter that isn't starting up, and maybe after a
few inverter replacement trips until the guys figure out that the Vrop is
too much with the modules settled or degraded voltage, etc, it should be
done for free.  If not, that original deal with the client is not being
honored and therefore was an unethical sale, and another unsatisfied
customer.  That is if the inverter repairs/replacements didn't upset them
enough. :o)

LCOE
To really compare this, I would say you would have to do a few designs with
the proposed wire sizes and Vdrops, calc the costs of each system, including
larger conduit and fittings, etc.  Then run production estimates, with
PVSyst, don't forget that year 2 should be about .5% less, and on and on,
for 20,25 or 30 years, depending on how aggressive you are, and calculate
every lifetime cost to the best of your ability, to get the Levelized Cost
of Energy (LCOE) and compare the one that yields the lowest generated cost
per kWhr.  Anything less is Swiss cheese...holes all through it.   

I do have to wonder though about WHEN that power is made, I'm sure that
conductor loading throughout the curve can factor in somewhere.  Maybe
because actual amp loading will grow, peak and shrink throughout the day,
with relatively constant voltage, maybe our Vdrop calculations are too
rudimentary using fixed Vmp & Imp numbers.  

Is Imp variable enough for a conductor with 5.5%Vdrop where it only spends a
small amount of time with that high of a drop, and in under STC conditions
be within a reasonable Vdrop?

Thanks to all who participate on here, the education is greatly appreciated.
Look forward to other opinions, comments, etc.

Sorry about the length,

Ryan LeBlanc
Natural Energy Works
 

>  Nick,
>
> Advocating for an economic comparison between the cost of wire and the
> energy saved by larger wire is not the same as advocating for high voltage
> drops, or low ones either.  Even with the present low prices for PV
modules
> and high prices for copper wire, a 100-ft long 350-volt dc input to a 3-kW
> inverter should have around 1% voltage drop.   Now consider a 350-volt
> 10-amp PV circuit that's 500 feet long.  Using 12 AWG copper the dc
voltage
> drop would be 5.5%.  Sounds like that might be a poor wire choice, right?
> Look what happens as the wire size is increased:
>
>   Conductor Power $ per
> AWG   $/ft   Cost  Loss  watt saved
>  12 0.62  $620193W (5.5%) --
>  10 0.95  $950123W (3.5%)$4.71
>   8 1.54  $1540 77W (2.2%)  $12.83
>   6 2.37  $2370 49W (1.4%)  $29.64
>   4 3.73  $3730 32W (0.9%)  $80.00
>
> It would be reasonable to use 10 AWG copper, but before going up to 8 AWG,
> I'd consider buying more PV instead.  Why buy a watt of power at $12.83
when
> it cost less to buy a watt of PV?  The conductor price used here, just for
> illustration, is from Southwire's price list for THHN/THWN wire dated 7
> April 2010.  In the column of conductor costs I only considered the cost
of
> two current carrying wires.  The cost of the equipment ground wire,
conduit,
> connectors, etc all go up too.  That makes the dollars per watt saved look
> even worse.
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
>
>
> Nick Soleil wrote:
>
> I feel that it is

Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing

[Warren Lauzon]

The original rationale was probably due more to solar panel costs more than 
anything else - at a time when solar was $10-15 a watt, and copper was cheap it 
made sense.

But now that solar panels cost 1/5th as much and copper wire is 4x as much, 
probably not so much now. Nowadays it is quite often much more economical on 
systems with long wire runs to add more panel than to use bigger wire.

Also, when that "standard" was adopted, there were still a lot of panels made 
in the 15.5 to 16.5 volt range, and 2/10th to 4/10th of a volt drop was more 
important to battery life and charging in hot weather, so that may have been a 
factor also.

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kent Osterberg 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing


  I know you wouldn't, Warren.  Because it is much more economical (that means 
more kWh/$) to use a MPPT controller.  But you would run a 100-volt 30-amp PV 
array to a MPPT charge controller that is 150 feet away.  For that distance, it 
takes 1/0 wire to get the wire loss down to 1%.  I'd probably settle for using 
3 AWG copper with 2% loss.  With the smaller wire, the looses are 29 watts 
more, but the system cost is less by at least $700.  At $700/29 watts = 
$24/watt, the 1/0 wire is not a good choice.

  My question is: what is the rational for using 1% loss as the design 
objective.  Why not 1/2%?  Why not 2%?
  So far no one has offered an answer to that question; despite many claiming 
that 1% or 1.5% is always their design objective.

  In Home Power issue 104, December 2004 - January 2005, I showed that striving 
for low voltage drops in low-voltage systems doesn't mean you've got a good 
(economical) design.  The spreadsheet I created for that article is no longer 
available, but one that is easier to use is available from Ray Walters' web 
site.  In SolarPro 3.2, February - March 2010, Blake Gleason shows an example 
where upsizing the wire size to get 2.6% loss is not economical.

  Kent Osterberg
  Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.


  Warren Lauzon wrote: 
I would never design such a system. That is what MPPT controllers are for. 
10 years ago we did not have that choice, but now we do, so there is no reason 
at all to design a 40 amp 12 volt array circuit.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

..
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kent Osterberg 
  To: Wrenches 
  Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:22 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing


  Here's my challenge to all of you that want to design for 1% or 1.5% 
voltage drop all the time:
  Take a 50-ft circuit carrying 40 amps at 12 volts, going to a C40 charge 
controller, select your wire size for 1% or 1.5% loss. You know that's not a 
practical solution.  I know that it makes more sense to replace the charge 
controller and run the PV circuit at a higher voltage.

  At % loss did it become impractical?  Ray's answer and my answer is "when 
there is a cheaper alternative -- lower cost per watt out or lower cost per kWh 
over the project life."  And that answer works even when you are considering a 
400-kW PV array that is 1000 feet away.

  Kent Osterberg
  Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators

[benn kilburn]

Daryl,The customer specified that he would like a diesel gen.  I haven't tried 
to sway him towards propane yet, but we are still refining his load 
calculations and the site will likely not be ready for the install for a few 
months at least.
I also like the fact that there is typically already propane on site and that 
an energy sucking block heater is not needed to be as reliable for starting in 
the cold temp when it's needed most.The last off grid system i did (which was 
my first PV/gen hybrid, i've typically done grid-tie) used propane and the 
system owner's only beef was the fuel consumption when the thing did run.  He 
had his gen inside an enclosed room in his shop, an Onan 12 GSAA-6707.   I just 
read thru the propane gen thread on this list from last June that was very 
informative.  It seemed that Onan and Kohler were the favorites for propane.  
Is this still the case or does anyone have other thoughts.
I will be pushing the propane option but just incase the customer insists on 
going the diesel route, are there any other recommendations for diesel?
Thanks,benn
DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY



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> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:38:47 -0400
> From: penobscotso...@midmaine.com
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Diesel Generators
> 
> Ben,
>Here in Maine we don't install diesel gennies in off grid applications.
> Typically, diesel gennies require a block heater which can use as much
> as 1000 watts. Unless this is a tremendously large off grid system it
> won't be a good idea to go that way.
>Why not just use a propane gennie. They are far more reliable, cleaner
> burning, typical off grid homes use propane anyway for cooking, at a
> minimum. It also does not require pre heating to start.
>Just my two cents.
> 
> Daryl DeJoy
> NABCEP Certified PV installer
> Penobscot Solar Design
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > Wrenches,
> > Can anyone in the off-grid market, in colder climate regions (i'm at
> > latitude 53) suggest or recommend a reliable diesel generator for off-gird
> > home back-up.  It will likely be coupled with two Outback VFX3648's and a
> > 1500 to 2500 amp/hr battery.  Any experiences with pairing Lister
> > generators with an auto-start set up?  Northern Lights Generators has also
> > come highly recommended, any experiences?
> > Also, for this colder region, i'm looking for pros/cons of having the
> > back-up gen installed indoors (garage or shop) as opposed to outdoors; to
> > protect it somewhat from the extreme cold weather so it will have less
> > trouble starting when it is needed.
> > Thanks in advance.benn
> > DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A
> > SUNNY DAY
> >
> >
> >
> > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:This email, including any attachments, contains
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