Re: [RE-wrenches] tyco connector tool

[Bill Loesch]

Hi William,

I don't believe anyone would take exception to the philosophy expressed in 
avoiding unnecessary connections. What would be two practical examples of it 
with regard to avoiding additional Tyco connectors?

TIA,
Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
  - Original Message - 
  From: William Miller 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] tyco connector tool


  Jay:

  My recommendation is to learn how to install without using one.  It can be 
done.  Splices add additional potential for failure.

  William Miller




  At 02:57 PM 2/13/2010, you wrote:

I'm in the market for a Tyco connector tool .


(I already have the MC tool)

Any recommendations ?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
___


--


  ___
  List sponsored by Home Power magazine

  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

  Options & settings:
  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List rules & etiquette:
  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

  Check out participant bios:
  www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup

[All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez]

Yes, 
No  Transformers, Single inverter. 
Another question, looking at the Fronius 10.1 and 11.4-3, no battery backup of 
course, they both list 208v in the sizing tool. I need to look at a manual, but 
I'm not sure if I would need Delta, Wye, ..

Thanks everyone!


  - Original Message - 
  From: Rebekah Hren 
  To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com ; RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 5:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup


  Hi,
  Does the utility mean by "match" that they don't want the inverter output 
transformed in any way? 
  Could you not just use one 120V inverter? I've connected single 120 volt 
inverters (albeit not outback but I don't see why not) to a 120/208 wye without 
problems. You have to make sure the wires are sized correctly (solar pro had a 
recent article on unbalanced 3 phase wire sizing). This of course limits your 
backed up loads to 120V (w/out a transformer).


  Rebekah Hren
  North Carolina








--
  From: Allan Sindelar 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 6:51:12 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup

  Yes you would. I don't believe there is a single inverter that meets the 
utility's wishes. 


  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
  EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com



  All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: 
Thanks Darryl, 
Allen, would you have to use 3 Sunny Islands?  one for each phase? 
The Utility wants a single inverter. 

Jeremy 
- Original Message - From: "Darryl Thayer"  
To: "RE-wrenches"  
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:49 PM 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup 


I do not know what is going on at Outback, but unless they reduced the 
product offering, they have the capability.  I have such a system. 

Use 3 of their 120 volt single phase inverters connected 3-phase WYE 
(120/208) 3 phase.  Each inverter is only a single phase, and you connect each 
inverter to the neutral and one phase, you program one to be the Master, and 
the others to be slaves on phase B and Phase C.  When you lose the grid, the 
Master inverter starts its sine wave and it generates the usual 60 Hz square 
wave on the Outback Bus and the following slave units delays the start of their 
sin waves by the appropriate 120 degrees to generate 3 phases.  Each inverter 
picks up and makes 60 hz 3 phase. 

One thing, besure to get a rotation meter and check that you are generating 
3-phase the same rotation as the grid. Else you will have big problems. (motors 
will reverse and you may fry the OB transfer relay) 

Next time you call outback ask a tech if you can slave the GVFX to make 3 
phase, 

--- On Mon, 2/15/10, All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez  
wrote: 


  From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez  
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup 
  To: starpowe...@juno.com, "RE-wrenches" 
 
  Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 4:14 PM 
  Jeff, 
  That was my first choice, but I was told by Outback 
  that they do not offer 
  a 120/208 inverter(s). I have not set up a three 
  phase system yet, so bare 
  with me please. I was going to contact SMA next. 

  Jeremy 


  - Original Message - From: "Jeff Oldham"  
  To: ; 
   
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:03 PM 
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery 
  Backup 


  > You can also do it w/Outback up to 10.8kW 
  > 
  >>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of 
  Jeff Oldham/Regenerative 
  >>SOLutions 








--


  ___
  List sponsored by Home Power magazine

  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

  Options & settings:
  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List rules & etiquette:
  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

  Check out participant bios:
  www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Answers

[All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez]

Thanks to all for the help.  Its going to have to be an IG Plus. 208V Delta: 
120V WYE config.  
Wait til June for it...

Jeremy


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup

[Darryl Thayer]

If you have 120/208 you have WYE.  How much power do you have to put into the 
grid?  The question if you need back up power what is it for?  if it is simple 
plug loads or lighting you might serve the customer well with single phase 
backup. If you need 3-phase back-up I find it hard to accept that they need it 
in one box. The Xantrex is three seperate inverters on one board that looks 
like 1 box.  The three 120 volt units make 120/208 three phase.If you have 
120/240 three phase you have Delta, high leg.  Other combinations of three 
phase are possible, but more rare. 

I am old and I have never seen a problem of 3 phase imbalance if I stay within 
20% of the panel rating.  In fact I have seen single phase loads that will 
imbalance more than 20% not cause a problem.  The problem of imbalance is 
similar to what occurs with single phase and changed inverter rules to 
requireing a ground reference on 240 volt inverters.  This problem is that the 
neutral will get pushed off center voltage wise, I usually demonstrate this in 
my class.  YOu can not cause significat imbalance with three 120 volt 
inverters, but you could woty the old 208 no neutral inverters.  

Darryl   

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez  
wrote:

> From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 9:27 AM
> 
> 
>  
> #yiv965209721 DIV {
> MARGIN:0px;}
> 
> 
>  
>  
> Yes, 
> No  Transformers,
> Single inverter. 
> 
> Another question, looking
> at the Fronius 10.1 and 
> 11.4-3, no battery backup of course, they both list
> 208v in the sizing 
> tool. I need to look at a manual, but I'm not sure
> if I would need 
> Delta, Wye, ..
>  
> Thanks
> everyone!
>  
>  
> 
>   - Original Message
> - 
>   From: 
>   Rebekah 
>   Hren 
>   To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> 
>   ; RE-wrenches
> 
>   Sent: Monday,
> February 15, 2010 5:34 
>   PM
>   Subject: Re:
> [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid 
>   Tie with Battery Backup
>   
> 
>   
>   
>   Hi,
>   Does the utility mean by "match" that they
> don't want the inverter output 
>   transformed in any way? 
>   Could you not just use one 120V inverter? I've
> connected single 120 volt 
>   inverters (albeit not outback but I don't see why
> not) to a 120/208 wye 
>   without problems. You have to make sure the wires are
> sized correctly (solar 
>   pro had a recent article on unbalanced 3 phase wire
> sizing). This of course 
>   limits your backed up loads to 120V (w/out a
> transformer).
>   
> 
>   Rebekah Hren
>   North Carolina
>   
> 
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
>   
>   
>   From: Allan
> Sindelar 
>   
> To: RE-wrenches 
>   
> Sent: Mon, February
> 15, 2010 6:51:12 
>   PM
> Subject: Re:
> [RE-wrenches] 
>   3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
> 
> Yes you would. I don't 
>   believe there is a single inverter that meets the
> utility's wishes. 
> 
> 
>   
>   
> 
> 
> 
>   
>   Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified 
>   Photovoltaic Installer
> EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Positive Energy, 
>   Inc.
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505 
>   424-1112
> www.positiveenergysolar.com
> 
> All 
>   Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: 
>   Thanks Darryl, 
> Allen, would you have to use 3 
> Sunny Islands?  one for each phase? 
> The Utility wants a single 
> inverter. 
> 
> Jeremy 
> - Original Message - From: "Darryl 
> Thayer"  
> 
> To: "RE-wrenches"  
> 
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:49 PM 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 
> Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup 
> 
> 
> I do not know what is going 
> on at Outback, but unless they reduced the product
> offering, they have the 
> capability.  I have such a system. 
> 
> Use 3 of their 120 volt 
> single phase inverters connected 3-phase WYE (120/208)
> 3 phase.  Each 
> inverter is only a single phase, and you connect each
> inverter to the 
> neutral and one phase, you program one to be the
> Master, and the others to 
> be slaves on phase B and Phase C.  When you lose
> the grid, the Master 
> inverter starts its sine wave and it generates the
> usual 60 Hz square wave 
> on the Outback Bus and the following slave units delays
> the start of their 
> sin waves by the appropriate 120 degrees to generate 3
> phases.  Each 
> inverter picks up and makes 60 hz 3 phase. 
> 
> One thing, besure to get 
> a rotation meter and check that you are generating
> 3-phase the same rotation 
> as the grid. Else you will have big problems. (motors
> will reverse and you 
> may fry the OB transfer relay) 
> 
> Next time you call outback ask a tech 
> if you can slave the GVFX to make 3 phase, 
> 
> --- On Mon, 2/15/10, All 
> Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez  
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy
> Rodriguez  
>   
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie w

[RE-wrenches] Mitsubishi module needed

[toddcory]

Hey folks,

I'm looking for a Mitsubishi 185 (black frame if possible) to replace a broken 
one on a customers rack.

Thanks,

Todd
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Fw: 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup

[All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez]

- Original Message - 
From: "All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup




Darryl,
I would say the utility is still learning.
10kw of PV to put into the grid or as large as 33kw if we can get this 
approved.

All 120V backed up loads.   We have 120/208.
The Xantrex XW?.
What do you mean by single phase backup.

Jeremy

- Original Message - 
From: "Darryl Thayer" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup


If you have 120/208 you have WYE.  How much power do you have to put into 
the grid?  The question if you need back up power what is it for?  if it 
is simple plug loads or lighting you might serve the customer well with 
single phase backup. If you need 3-phase back-up I find it hard to accept 
that they need it in one box. The Xantrex is three seperate inverters on 
one board that looks like 1 box.  The three 120 volt units make 120/208 
three phase. If you have 120/240 three phase you have Delta, high leg. 
Other combinations of three phase are possible, but more rare.


I am old and I have never seen a problem of 3 phase imbalance if I stay 
within 20% of the panel rating.  In fact I have seen single phase loads 
that will imbalance more than 20% not cause a problem.  The problem of 
imbalance is similar to what occurs with single phase and changed inverter 
rules to requireing a ground reference on 240 volt inverters.  This 
problem is that the neutral will get pushed off center voltage wise, I 
usually demonstrate this in my class.  YOu can not cause significat 
imbalance with three 120 volt inverters, but you could woty the old 208 no 
neutral inverters.


Darryl

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez 
 wrote:



From: All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 9:27 AM



#yiv965209721 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}




Yes,
No Transformers,
Single inverter.

Another question, looking
at the Fronius 10.1 and
11.4-3, no battery backup of course, they both list
208v in the sizing
tool. I need to look at a manual, but I'm not sure
if I would need
Delta, Wye, ..

Thanks
everyone!



  - Original Message
- 
  From:

  Rebekah
  Hren
  To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com

  ; RE-wrenches

  Sent: Monday,
February 15, 2010 5:34
  PM
  Subject: Re:
[RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Grid
  Tie with Battery Backup




  Hi,
  Does the utility mean by "match" that they
don't want the inverter output
  transformed in any way?
  Could you not just use one 120V inverter? I've
connected single 120 volt
  inverters (albeit not outback but I don't see why
not) to a 120/208 wye
  without problems. You have to make sure the wires are
sized correctly (solar
  pro had a recent article on unbalanced 3 phase wire
sizing). This of course
  limits your backed up loads to 120V (w/out a
transformer).


  Rebekah Hren
  North Carolina









  From: Allan
Sindelar
  
To: RE-wrenches
  
Sent: Mon, February
15, 2010 6:51:12
  PM
Subject: Re:
[RE-wrenches]
  3 Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup

Yes you would. I don't
  believe there is a single inverter that meets the
utility's wishes.








  Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified
  Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy,
  Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505
  424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

All
  Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:
  Thanks Darryl,
Allen, would you have to use 3
Sunny Islands? one for each phase?
The Utility wants a single
inverter.

Jeremy
- Original Message - From: "Darryl
Thayer" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3
Phase Grid Tie with Battery Backup


I do not know what is going
on at Outback, but unless they reduced the product
offering, they have the
capability. I have such a system.

Use 3 of their 120 volt
single phase inverters connected 3-phase WYE (120/208)
3 phase. Each
inverter is only a single phase, and you connect each
inverter to the
neutral and one phase, you program one to be the
Master, and the others to
be slaves on phase B and Phase C. When you lose
the grid, the Master
inverter starts its sine wave and it generates the
usual 60 Hz square wave
on the Outback Bus and the following slave units delays
the start of their
sin waves by the appropriate 120 degrees to generate 3
phases. Each
inverter picks up and makes 60 hz 3 phase.

One thing, besure to get
a rotation meter and check that you are generating
3-phase the same rotation
as the grid. Else you will have big problems. (motors
will reverse and you
may fry the OB transfer relay)

Next time you call outback ask a tech
if you can slave the GVFX to make 3 phase,

--- 

Re: [RE-wrenches] 3 Phase Answers

[David Brearley]

Jeremy,

You might find the information on electrical service types in John Berdner¹s
article useful:

http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg32_Berdner&search=

Also, here¹s the link to the 3-phase line currents article that Rebekah Hren
mentioned:

http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_1_pg66_Hamon&search=

This sounds to me like an issue with an inexperienced utility that doesn¹t
know what to require or expect. It is not at all uncommon for first time
projects to elicit requests of this nature. For example, I¹ve worked on
small PV pilot project designs‹like solar for schools projects‹with
registered professional electrical engineers who want to specify a 3 or 4kW
3-phase inverter. Because the site has a 3-phase service, right?

It makes perfect sense from their point of view. But that inverter product
isn¹t out there & doesn¹t need to be. There are single-phase appliances on
3-phase electrical systems, after all.

A small grid-tied PV system is basically a dedicated appliance circuit, only
it exports current. It is a load reduction appliance with anti-islanding
protection...and maybe even backup power capabilities. While a battery
backup system might raise more flags with the utility, the system may still
be small enough to interconnect at 120Vac without creating or exacerbating
any existing phase imbalance issues. Typically the phase imbalance limit is
set at 6kW by the utility. If you are backing up 3-phase loads, well then
you need 3-phase power from the system.

BTW: Did you know that there are three power stages in those 3-phase Fronius
IG Plus inverters? Sounds an awful lot like stacking single-phase inverters
onto a 3-phase service, doesn¹t it? I suspect that these units still output
3-phase power even with only one power stage operating, which the units will
do to reduce tare losses. But the product platform is primarily single-phase
and only the 3-stage units are available with 3-phase output. The smaller
units don¹t need to have a 3-phase output. You can configure them granularly
as needed to avoid phase imbalance.

Of course, the AHJ can set their rules however they see fit, but you can
also educate them about national industry standards with line diagrams and
case studies or by bringing in a professional engineer with PV systems
expertise. You shouldn¹t have to use a 11.4kW 3-phase inverter just to
interconnect a small array at a facility with 120/208 service. Similarly,
you shouldn¹t have to scrap plans for a utility-interactive battery backup
system just because none of the available inverters offer 3-phase power in a
single box. They don¹t have to. If the system size is small enough, you¹re
not creating any meaningful phase imbalance. If the system is larger, you
can stack inverters to achieve a 3-phase output from the inverter system.

If this is a real project, you might want to start monitoring the line
currents at the site. Show the utility the existing load profile. It¹s
probably not nearly as simple and balanced as they think it is. If one phase
always (or usually) has a higher current than the others, you may be able to
use your load reduction appliance to improve an existing phase imbalance.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer 
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com


On 2/16/10 10:49 AM, "All Solar Inc. Jeremy Rodriguez"
 wrote:

> Thanks to all for the help.  Its going to have to be an IG Plus. 208V Delta:
> 120V WYE config. 
> Wait til June for it...
>  
> Jeremy
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Need 1 SunnyBoy SWR2500U

[Joel Davidson]

Hello Wrenches,
Who has a SunnyBoy SWR2500U in stock? Please contact me off-list. Thank you 
very much.
Joel Davidson 


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Need 1 SunnyBoy SWR2500U

[SOLARPRO]

I have one very slightly used one... About six years old?
 
Pat Redgate
 
 
In a message dated 2/16/2010 5:28:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
joel.david...@sbcglobal.net writes:

Hello  Wrenches,
Who has a SunnyBoy SWR2500U in stock? Please contact me off-list.  Thank 
you 
very much.
Joel Davidson  

___
List sponsored by  Home Power magazine

List Address:  RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options &  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:  
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List  rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out  participant  bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org