Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode for maps (Issue #5328)
> Since the third maintainer doesn't want to discuss dark mode any longer, While unfortunate behavior at a personal level, in general this response means they (singular) basically agree to the wider community decision. Which seems to be reasonably clear and inevitable. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/5328#issuecomment-2504223690 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Remove brightness filter for map tiles in dark mode styles (PR #5327)
Can someone please rebase and merge this? Its monday, plenty of office-going people will see the darkened map for the first time and it would help immensely to avoid the influx of bugreports and complaints on support channels. We know from the large amount of upheaval that this css rule brought that this is not the right solution, so I'm not making this up. We've only seen the volunteer's reaction so far, not the big crowds. Thanks! -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/5327#issuecomment-2482392399 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode (#2332)
For what it is worth, as someone that loves dark mode and even has an AMOLED display that makes a pure black background very easy on the eyes, for someone that is a fan of dark mode, I don't want my normal map usage to have tiles that have a dark background. Only while driving I like having dark background with white street/city names, for a map that has very low amount of detail. But for normal usage, which is 100% of what I'd do on OSm.org, I don't want my tiles to be anything other than the beautiful color-theme that the site has shipped for years. This "feauture" should at minimum be opt-in. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/2332#issuecomment-2477468357 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode for maps (Issue #5328)
The idea of dark mode has always been about contrast. There is a substantial part of the population that dislikes the over-saturation of light as that makes the non-light elements get pushed out. Imagine ink on a napkin, it bleeds out and your text needs to be bigger and brighter to compensate. So, for those people that dislike looking at bright sources, nightmode is a solution. Overall light output is less and that helps contrast of text and other details. Unfortunately for this issue, there has yet to be a cartographer that actually sat down and made a dark-theme. The map theme isn't just about contrast, as inversion may solve, but the colors are actually really relevant for the recognition of elements. Imagine if we inverted the colors of a flag, not a good idea because the colors are quite relevant for recognition. That red dotted line is a footpath, that blue one is a bicycle path. This is learned, this should be super consistent if changed. Based on this thinking I would totally reject the darkening of tiles, it completely misses the point. Additionally I would reject any auto-inversion of tile colors because that would utterly destroy the design. That green on the map is reconizable as forest and other things humans see as green. Water is blue. Train / tram lines are black. Houses brick-colored. Inversion just doesn't give you a good result if you just throw out the window all those intuitive and learned rules of what the colors are. To be frank, other than a super simple map style that just shows roads and text, I've never in my life seen a good dark theme for maps. I expect that it will take a lot of time to actually sit down and make one. And to be honest, with many places on OSM being mostly green or gray (residential) for background, I'd be surprised if it actually is needed at all. To conclude; 1. Using dimming or auto-inversion is making things worse. Please don't. 2. A new theme may be designed that inverts some colors and not others to get the best result. But this is a manual effort that I'm personally not asking for. 3. The normal tiles (identical to the light theme) work and look good. As a long time dark theme user I'm not sure who asked for their colors to be fixed. Why fix something that isn't broken? ps. libreoffice in dark mode still shows white paper and black text. Apps like inkscape and gimp obviously do too. If I go to Flickr com, all the photos are still showing me the original colors. What is the rationale that OSM should include the tiles in dark mode? I don't think that is needed at all. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/5328#issuecomment-247600 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode (#2332)
This seems to have been rolled out on the main website. At least, the main website has some css trick to make the tiles darker on my firefox on desktop. The unfortunate downside of this solution is that I can't use the website anymore. The contrast is too low, the text has become unreadable. The point of dark mode is not to make everything darker, this seems to be the effect gained but that is the opposite of what people that use dark mode actually want. The entire point of dark mode is to increase contrast, this is gained by having light text on dark background. The current iteration of openstreetmap.org is unusable due to extremely low contrast. Please consider reverting until a better solution can be found. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/2332#issuecomment-2477461355 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Use CSS filter instead of dimming tiles (PR #5325)
For what it is worth, as someone that loves dark mode and even has an AMOLED display that makes a pure black background very easy on the eyes, for someone that is a fan of dark mode, I don't want my normal map usage to have tiles that have a dark background. Only while driving I like having dark background with white street/city names, for a map that has very low amount of detail. But for normal usage, which is 100% of what I'd do on OSm.org, I don't want my tiles to be anything other than the beautiful color-theme that the site has shipped for years. This "feauture" should at minimum be opt-in. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/5325#issuecomment-2477470223 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode for maps (Issue #5328)
@AntonKhorev > > The idea of dark mode has always been about contrast. > Wikipedia has slightly lower contrast in dark mode. You didn't quote the full paragraph that tried to add the needed background. It factually is about contrast, but the simple comparing of two colors doesn't give you the contrast in a real world situation. Let me quote myself, but add emphasis: > The idea of dark mode has always been about contrast. There is a substantial > part of the population that dislikes the over-saturation of light as that > makes the non-light elements get pushed out. **Imagine ink on a napkin, it > bleeds out and your text needs to be bigger and brighter to compensate.** In a high-light environment (on a computer screen that emits light) the mathematically same contrast looks lower contrast due to eyes not being perfect or simply tired. Have a low light environment (on light emitting devices) and the same contrast is better to read. So the GOAL is better contrast. And the wikipedia example that actually has mathematically lower contrast in dark mode shows the point I'm making that dark mode itself has such a high impact. To use the opportunity: my preference is to keep the map tiles as is. As a long time dark-theme user I've never once had the wish to learn a new map legend, or have a problem with a mostly green and brown map being too bright. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/5328#issuecomment-2480494458 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Use CSS filter instead of dimming tiles (PR #5325)
> They literally think we want to just invert the colors and that's it. Actually OSM just darkens the tiles and that's it. Anyway; you state that "we've already explained why we need it...". Can you link to that? I have doubt. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/5325#issuecomment-2480496607 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode for maps (Issue #5328)
@AntonKhorev > It was in active development, six months ago. It would have been difficult to > miss it for anyone following this repo. ok, so it seems osm needs a 'beta.osm org' style website where normies can test it. It obviously didn't get tested enough before deployment, nobody should deny that. What is more important is that we still today have a deployed version that is categorized by a large percentage of dark mode users as "buggy". A "proper" solution doesn't seem to be on the horizon, looking at the length of the discussion. So, when can we revert the broken map filter and fix the bug? -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/5328#issuecomment-2499239098 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode for maps (Issue #5328)
@hlfan > but to have no change at all would be counterproductive To remove the filter and get the tiles to show exactly like the png's are, that would indeed be ideal at this time. This is not counter productive, this is SOLVING A BUG that was introduced a month ago. I have not used OSM for a month now because it is unusable and no contributor seems to be willing to just press the freaking 'merge' button on a MR like 5327. Why? What on earth is the problem in the ranks of the devs that this PR doesn't get merged? -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/5328#issuecomment-2521440271 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode for maps (Issue #5328)
@AntonKhorev you clearly like to argue, and from my 3 decades of open source experience I read your behavior and dare say that is because you simply like to be right. The fact of the matter is that here you are simply arguing for a change that isn't your (or mine, or gravitystorm's) to make. It is the choice of the cartographers. Please accept that. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/5328#issuecomment-2542015603 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode (#2332)
> this will work to restore the light mode map, but it will also stop saving > your eyes ;-) I'm for one happy with the hack as it actually saves my eyes. Not sure why you have the opposite experience. Looking at the OSM map before this css hack is painful, being forced to make out details in a low contrast map is very tiring to the eyes. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/2332#issuecomment-2494775803 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode for maps (Issue #5328)
@pkrasicki > If your opinion isn't just based on fear, then you should have no problem > pointing out what specific issues you've noticed with the proposed solutions. The main issue I see is that your proposal adds a 'theme' to a layer. Where a layer is what the front-end names the different tile styles (cycle map, transport map etc). This is a division that makes no sense other than being reactionary to the 'darktheme' request. A 'dark mode' (as this issue calls it) is from a user perspective a layer. Not a modification to a layer. This is one of those obvious things that is hard to convince a person of until they've tried it or until they did user testing to show unbiased new people one or the other design and register their response. But I can make a small indication that may help create this understanding for the open minded persons: - a layer has colors chosen by a cartographer. People pick a layer based on need or preference. This preference is orthogonal to dark mode needs. - A layer has exectly one set of colors today. We can't rush making a second set for each. Which is exactly what would be needed if a layer is to have a dark/light mode toggle. - The default map layer has practically no large areas of light. Most dark theme users will not find a need to change. On the other hand, the transport map has large sections of light and a I expect dark theme users would prefer a dark themed one. Point being: user preferences are for a layer, not for a dark theme regardless of layer. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/5328#issuecomment-2494758695 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
Re: [openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website] Dark Mode for maps (Issue #5328)
What [Wilhem275](https://github.com/Wilhem275) said, can't add more to that. Devs, please follow that route. -- Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/5328#issuecomment-2481258861 You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Message ID: ___ rails-dev mailing list rails-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/rails-dev
