[python-uk] What is community involvement? was: DJUGL - Django User Group London: this evening (April 22th) at 19:00 c/o WayraUK
Hi Alex, [ Note, I've changed the subject since this is specific to DJUGL anymore ] On 22/04/15 15:55, Álex González wrote: > Hi g(uy|irl)s, > > my 2 cents here. > > As a co-organiser of the Golang meetup I feel the pain of trying to > find sponsors for food, drinks & some place to host. I had sponsorship > offers from recruiters but I tried to avoid them for the exact reason > that you (Anand) are mention, but, let's be honest: I didn't mention any specific reason, please don't put words into my mouth. > I don't care who sponsors an event. This is a win-win kind of > relationship: Rubbish. You absolutely care. If the Klu Klux Klan decided to sponsor DJUGL, you'd be OK with that? I hope not. What if the Free Software Foundation offered sponsorship? Each sponsor brings both an agenda and moral baggage. > - recruiters than at least show interest in the techs or in the people > around the tech will grow their network. I will definitely prefer to > talk to Jon about my next career movement than with somebody else that > just know Django as a keyword. That is your choice and, no doubt, part of the agenda behind their (Austin Fraser's) sponsorship. > - we, as users of the tech are going to have a great event with dinner > & beer networking included. > > Said that, I understand that you can feel this event as a SPAM kind of > event, but it's not the case at all Again, please don't put words into my mouth. I've not complained about the event. I queried it's raison d'être . I also query what it means to say you are "part of the community". > You are asking Jon why he doesn't join other meetups, perhaps he > doesn't want? I don't think that he needs to feel ashamed for that. The thing is, Jon said "I have worked hard over the last 7 years to change the typical perception [of recruiters] and become an active member of the Django community." What does "active member of the Django community" mean? Jon, for example, also notes that he has been involved with DJUGL for 3 years; so in the prior 4 years what kind of community involvement does he mean? Personally I feel that community involvement is a range of activities, the least important of which is organising physical face to face meetings. Why do I say that? The Django community - indeed most communities - existed before there were physical meetings and will continue to exist when Django becomes just another boring technology where there isn't a need to meet others involved in it. Like C, or assembly or COBOL. I'm sure those programmers get together and discuss things, but in-person? I'd be surprised. Eventually both Python and Django will get to that point. > I talked once in one of the DJUGLs and I said that my company was > hiring, Jon didn't even mention anything about that when he saw my > slides in advance. That is good to hear. The reports I've heard are not accurate regarding mentions of hiring then. > And finally, I also think that is a shame to have 2 events around the > same technology in the same day or even week. The time is limited and > I try to suit my calendar to 1 event per week and if I were interested > in this 2 events I would feel sad that I couldn't assist to bot for > time restrictions. Both events are not the same and - arguably - even if they were there are different moral imperatives behind them. > Both of you do a great job organising your meetups, let's keep it and > in case that you can help each other, why not? At the end, the > community will be the one winning. Community .. it's an easy word to co-opt. But somewhat harder to define. Thanks for listening. Cheers, Anand -- “Don’t be sad because it’s over. Smile because it happened.” – Dr. Seuss ___ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
Re: [python-uk] What is community involvement? was: DJUGL - Django User Group London: this evening (April 22th) at 19:00 c/o WayraUK
"so in the prior 4 years what kind of community involvement does he mean?" Jon used to come along to the pyssup meetups I used to organise, that was about 7 years ago. He did so for a number of years before other meetups such as DJUGL took off and his eventual rescue when nobody was there to take it on. His participation was always exemplary taking the time to get to know the people there and I guess to really get to understand us - strange breed that we are. He also bought more than his fair share of the rounds. Anand, you know how difficult it is to organise these things (note Jon is more than just a sponsor) - let's give him a break. Cheers Andy On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 at 17:07 Anand Kumria wrote: > Hi Alex, > > [ Note, I've changed the subject since this is specific to DJUGL anymore ] > > On 22/04/15 15:55, Álex González wrote: > > Hi g(uy|irl)s, > > my 2 cents here. > > As a co-organiser of the Golang meetup I feel the pain of trying to find > sponsors for food, drinks & some place to host. I had sponsorship offers > from recruiters but I tried to avoid them for the exact reason that you > (Anand) are mention, but, let's be honest: > > > I didn't mention any specific reason, please don't put words into my mouth. > > I don't care who sponsors an event. This is a win-win kind of > relationship: > > > Rubbish. > > You absolutely care. If the Klu Klux Klan decided to sponsor DJUGL, you'd > be OK with that? > > I hope not. What if the Free Software Foundation offered sponsorship? > > Each sponsor brings both an agenda and moral baggage. > > - recruiters than at least show interest in the techs or in the people > around the tech will grow their network. I will definitely prefer to talk > to Jon about my next career movement than with somebody else that just know > Django as a keyword. > > > That is your choice and, no doubt, part of the agenda behind their (Austin > Fraser's) sponsorship. > > - we, as users of the tech are going to have a great event with dinner & > beer networking included. > > Said that, I understand that you can feel this event as a SPAM kind of > event, but it's not the case at all > > > Again, please don't put words into my mouth. I've not complained about the > event. > I queried it's raison d'être . I also query what it means to say you are > "part of the community". > > You are asking Jon why he doesn't join other meetups, perhaps he doesn't > want? I don't think that he needs to feel ashamed for that. > > > The thing is, Jon said "I have worked hard over the last 7 years to change > the typical perception [of recruiters] and become an active member of the > Django community." > > What does "active member of the Django community" mean? Jon, for example, > also notes that he has been involved with DJUGL for 3 years; so in the > prior 4 years what kind of community involvement does he mean? > > Personally I feel that community involvement is a range of activities, the > least important of which is organising physical face to face meetings. > > Why do I say that? > > The Django community - indeed most communities - existed before there were > physical meetings and will continue to exist when Django becomes just > another boring technology where there isn't a need to meet others involved > in it. > > Like C, or assembly or COBOL. I'm sure those programmers get together and > discuss things, but in-person? I'd be surprised. Eventually both Python and > Django will get to that point. > > > I talked once in one of the DJUGLs and I said that my company was > hiring, Jon didn't even mention anything about that when he saw my slides > in advance. > > > That is good to hear. The reports I've heard are not accurate regarding > mentions of hiring then. > > And finally, I also think that is a shame to have 2 events around the > same technology in the same day or even week. The time is limited and I try > to suit my calendar to 1 event per week and if I were interested in this 2 > events I would feel sad that I couldn't assist to bot for time restrictions. > > > Both events are not the same and - arguably - even if they were there are > different moral imperatives behind them. > > Both of you do a great job organising your meetups, let's keep it and in > case that you can help each other, why not? At the end, the community will > be the one winning. > > > Community .. it's an easy word to co-opt. But somewhat harder to define. > > Thanks for listening. > > Cheers, > Anand > > -- > “Don’t be sad because it’s over. Smile because it happened.” – Dr. Seuss > > ___ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk > ___ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
Re: [python-uk] What is community involvement? was: DJUGL - Django User Group London: this evening (April 22th) at 19:00 c/o WayraUK
This all feels very unpleasant and beyond the scope of the Python UK mailing list. Speaking personally, I subscribe to this list to keep in touch with what is happening in the Python community in a positive and productive sense. On 23 April 2015 at 18:14, Andy Kilner wrote: > > "so in the prior 4 years what kind of community involvement does he mean?" > > Jon used to come along to the pyssup meetups I used to organise, that was > about 7 years ago. He did so for a number of years before other meetups > such as DJUGL took off and his eventual rescue when nobody was there to > take it on. His participation was always exemplary taking the time to get > to know the people there and I guess to really get to understand us - > strange breed that we are. He also bought more than his fair share of the > rounds. > > Anand, you know how difficult it is to organise these things (note Jon is > more than just a sponsor) - let's give him a break. > > Cheers > Andy > > On Thu, 23 Apr 2015 at 17:07 Anand Kumria wrote: > >> Hi Alex, >> >> [ Note, I've changed the subject since this is specific to DJUGL anymore ] >> >> On 22/04/15 15:55, Álex González wrote: >> >> Hi g(uy|irl)s, >> >> my 2 cents here. >> >> As a co-organiser of the Golang meetup I feel the pain of trying to >> find sponsors for food, drinks & some place to host. I had sponsorship >> offers from recruiters but I tried to avoid them for the exact reason that >> you (Anand) are mention, but, let's be honest: >> >> >> I didn't mention any specific reason, please don't put words into my >> mouth. >> >> I don't care who sponsors an event. This is a win-win kind of >> relationship: >> >> >> Rubbish. >> >> You absolutely care. If the Klu Klux Klan decided to sponsor DJUGL, you'd >> be OK with that? >> >> I hope not. What if the Free Software Foundation offered sponsorship? >> >> Each sponsor brings both an agenda and moral baggage. >> >> - recruiters than at least show interest in the techs or in the people >> around the tech will grow their network. I will definitely prefer to talk >> to Jon about my next career movement than with somebody else that just know >> Django as a keyword. >> >> >> That is your choice and, no doubt, part of the agenda behind their >> (Austin Fraser's) sponsorship. >> >> - we, as users of the tech are going to have a great event with dinner >> & beer networking included. >> >> Said that, I understand that you can feel this event as a SPAM kind of >> event, but it's not the case at all >> >> >> Again, please don't put words into my mouth. I've not complained about >> the event. >> I queried it's raison d'être . I also query what it means to say you are >> "part of the community". >> >> You are asking Jon why he doesn't join other meetups, perhaps he >> doesn't want? I don't think that he needs to feel ashamed for that. >> >> >> The thing is, Jon said "I have worked hard over the last 7 years to >> change the typical perception [of recruiters] and become an active member >> of the Django community." >> >> What does "active member of the Django community" mean? Jon, for example, >> also notes that he has been involved with DJUGL for 3 years; so in the >> prior 4 years what kind of community involvement does he mean? >> >> Personally I feel that community involvement is a range of activities, >> the least important of which is organising physical face to face meetings. >> >> Why do I say that? >> >> The Django community - indeed most communities - existed before there >> were physical meetings and will continue to exist when Django becomes just >> another boring technology where there isn't a need to meet others involved >> in it. >> >> Like C, or assembly or COBOL. I'm sure those programmers get together and >> discuss things, but in-person? I'd be surprised. Eventually both Python and >> Django will get to that point. >> >> >> I talked once in one of the DJUGLs and I said that my company was >> hiring, Jon didn't even mention anything about that when he saw my slides >> in advance. >> >> >> That is good to hear. The reports I've heard are not accurate regarding >> mentions of hiring then. >> >> And finally, I also think that is a shame to have 2 events around the >> same technology in the same day or even week. The time is limited and I try >> to suit my calendar to 1 event per week and if I were interested in this 2 >> events I would feel sad that I couldn't assist to bot for time restrictions. >> >> >> Both events are not the same and - arguably - even if they were there are >> different moral imperatives behind them. >> >> Both of you do a great job organising your meetups, let's keep it and >> in case that you can help each other, why not? At the end, the community >> will be the one winning. >> >> >> Community .. it's an easy word to co-opt. But somewhat harder to define. >> >> Thanks for listening. >> >> Cheers, >> Anand >> >> -- >> “Don’t be sad because it’s over. Smile because it happened.” – Dr. Seuss >> >>
Re: [python-uk] What is community involvement? was: DJUGL - Django User Group London: this evening (April 22th) at 19:00 c/o WayraUK
Hi, This thread makes me feel extremely sad. I've written several emails in reply and thrown them all away simply because they made me feel ashamed of how such dismissive attitudes have got under my skin. I am diminished as a result. Anand, Jon, Alex, Andy, *everyone*: you will *always* be made most welcome _without prejudice_ at any event I help to organise. I will welcome you as a friend and celebrate with you the *positive* contributions that you make no matter how small they may appear. That is all. N. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
Re: [python-uk] What is community involvement? was: DJUGL - Django User Group London: this evening (April 22th) at 19:00 c/o WayraUK
Well, the purpose of the list isn't to keep any of its members comfortable, but I'm sorry this frank exchange of views isn't welcome to everyone. I personally feel that it's much better for people to say what they mean, and have a frank exchange of views. But I quite understand that some people would rather just see purely meeting-related stuff on the list. The relationship of recruiters to Python communities is a perennial topic. As a complete outsider (I've never met Jon or attended any of his meetings) it sounds like he's at least marginally clued-up on how to interact with open source communities. Somebody doubted this (perhaps because of prior experiences with idiot recruiters, who appear to be legion) and so someone else better-informed provided information to dispel the doubter's ignorance (which I define merely as lack of specific information). On that basis I'm looking forward to meeting Jon and encouraging him to continue to engage, but since none of the principals in the conversation appear to be uncomfortable about it you may prefer to simply not read the rest of the thread. S On Apr 23, 2015, at 4:13 PM, Phil Tysoe wrote: > This all feels very unpleasant and beyond the scope of the Python UK mailing > list. Speaking personally, I subscribe to this list to keep in touch with > what is happening in the Python community in a positive and productive sense. > > On 23 April 2015 at 18:14, Andy Kilner wrote: > > "so in the prior 4 years what kind of community involvement does he mean?" > > Jon used to come along to the pyssup meetups I used to organise, that was > about 7 years ago. He did so for a number of years before other meetups such > as DJUGL took off and his eventual rescue when nobody was there to take it > on. His participation was always exemplary taking the time to get to know the > people there and I guess to really get to understand us - strange breed that > we are. He also bought more than his fair share of the rounds. > > Anand, you know how difficult it is to organise these things (note Jon is > more than just a sponsor) - let's give him a break. > -- Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com / +1 571 484 6266 / +44 113 320 2335 / @holdenweb ___ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
Re: [python-uk] What is community involvement? was: DJUGL - Django User Group London: this evening (April 22th) at 19:00 c/o WayraUK
+1 to everything but the sadness. People should be free to express their feelings. I haven't seen anybody being aggressive, demeaning or dismissive so I believe this thread is at least maintaining the rules of reasonable discourse. Unanimity is next to impossible. Therefore tolerance such as is shown in your message is necessary to allow us all to get along with our own little lives. S On Apr 23, 2015, at 4:15 PM, "Nicholas H.Tollervey" wrote: > Hi, > > This thread makes me feel extremely sad. I've written several emails in > reply and thrown them all away simply because they made me feel ashamed > of how such dismissive attitudes have got under my skin. I am diminished > as a result. > > Anand, Jon, Alex, Andy, *everyone*: you will *always* be made most > welcome _without prejudice_ at any event I help to organise. I will > welcome you as a friend and celebrate with you the *positive* > contributions that you make no matter how small they may appear. > > That is all. > > N. > > ___ > python-uk mailing list > python-uk@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk -- Steve Holden st...@holdenweb.com / +1 571 484 6266 / +44 113 320 2335 / @holdenweb ___ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
Re: [python-uk] What is community involvement? was: DJUGL - Django User Group London: this evening (April 22th) at 19:00 c/o WayraUK
On 24/04/15 00:47, Steve Holden wrote: > +1 to everything but the sadness. People should be free to express their > feelings. As I hope is clear, the sadness is entirely of my own doing (it's how I felt when trying to compose a reply to this thread). I totally agree with you about freedom to express feelings. I was, of course, exercising said freedom in my original reply. ;-) With the very best of wishes, N. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-uk
