Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
Here it is again... Python bypassed/discounted because, of all things, scoping by indentation!?!? This used to surprise me. Until I hear more and more otherwise reasonable programmers list this as their number one reason for shunning Python. I gauge design defects by how much after market discussion/documentation a feature generates/requires. Scoping by indentation is a whopper of a defect. Could the PyPy people find some way (I don't how) to eliminate this stumbling block going forward?? That is, after they eliminate the GIL! John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
This is amazing. Python could take over the programming world except one of it's best features (scope by indent) is a primary reason why it never will. It's not flexible enough. A large percentage of programmers won't even try the language. And even amongst Python enthusiast who appreciate the feature (me included) we can't agree on how to use it. Python is too flexible. And nobody else sees the need for change? Oh, except those who think Tabs are evil and should no longer be allowed. How about (1) add some more flexibility for optional braces and (2) add a formatting tool so I can reformat Python code to the "correct" style? Python is just a program, not a religion. Unless... Tabs really are evil. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> you're about 10 years late The same could be said for hoping that the GIL will be eliminated. Utterly hopeless. Until... there was PyPy. Maybe now it's not so hopeless. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> It seems to me that the tabs-vs-spaces thing is really about who controls the indentation: with spaces, it's the writer, and with tabs, it's the reader. Agreed. > if [scope by indent] really is scaring off potential converts, then a dumbed-down dialect of python which uses curly brackets and semicolons might be a useful evangelical tool. Yes, that's how I see it too. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> a decent description or tutorial... is better Sound good but... we're programmers, not documentation specialist or motivational speakers. Why, when I suggest fixing a design defect with code, do so many programmers want to respond with... documentation and arguments instead of code? >From "The Design of Everyday Things", docs are a sign of poor design. Even a single word, such as the word "Push" on the face of a door, is an indication that the design can be improved. Please, rethink the design instead of trying to compensate with more documentation. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> even a single character (like an opening or closing bracket or a semicolon) > is an indication that the design can be improved. Close, there are two principles for good design: Afford proper use and Don't afford improper use. I could argue that not having to type extra characters falls into the first category and so is part of why Python is a better design. Not having to type extra characters makes it easier (affords me) to enter source code in the first place and there's less to maintain in the long run. That's probably why nobody in the thread, including myself, has advocated "*require* the brackets". But, like a lot of "solutions", in solving one problem Python has created another one. Many people, for whatever reasons, feel that the solution (scope by indent) prevents them from using the tool. Hence Python has not really made it easier to type and maintain source code for the general audience, it's has only polarized the audience. There are many people who would say it definitely does NOT afford proper use. Python is the superior design, today. But, like Betamax tape format, Python isn't mainstream yet. And, sadly, maybe it never will be. I want that changed. I want Python to take over the world so I don't have to beg my next boss to let me use it. And if adding an optional "dumbed-down" format will help then that might be an improvement in the big picture. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> If someone doesn't want > to give Python a second look because of their own bigoted ideas, I say Python > doesn't want that type of person to begin with. Some days I feel the same way. I've described Python as a filter where only the best get through. That's leads to a concentration of talent and good taste which has great value and can even eclipse any shortcomings in the flawed tool that initially drew the crowd together. This is from a paper I started a long time ago, entitled "The Value of Bad Design". I never finished it but I do think it might be valid. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> Meanwhile, see Tools/scripts/pindent.py Yes, thanks, that's very close to what I was thinking of. If it just went a little further and used semi-colons and braces then it would be complete. Granted, that might still not be enough for people who don't like scope by indent. It would be interesting though to see how people react to the option. Would they suddenly give Python a try or simply look for another excuse? Such a little program could make the test feasible. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> But you don't want it to be Python, is all. No, the opposite. I'm pro-Python but anti-stagnant, anti-dogma and anti-bad design. If Python never changes that will be okay too. It *is* great! John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> the only programming language, for > example, which does not need documentation is the natural language, and > that contains so many ambiguities that humans often get instructions wrong. Natural languag (e.g. English) does not need documentation? Was there a shortage of big fat text books in your English department at school?? I know you don't mean to but you're making my point for me. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> Try this:: from __future__ import braces >>> from __future__ import braces File "", line 1 SyntaxError: not a chance >>> Thanks, that's funny. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
> Just because a few people dislike something, > doesn't make it a defect. Actually, it does. Unless you're in the business of building security systems. Then the goals are reversed. I can accept that you like scope by indent and don't want to see any changes gong forward. That's your choice. > it's somewhat ironic that you have to cite a documented > source to back up your point. Somewhat. :) > Do you think that adding braces to Python will mean > we can remove part of the existing documentation? No, it will add a little there. Where it will cut down is the otherwise unending debate over the issue. Documentation is not just what you find on a single web page. And it might help bring Python into the mainstream. Granted, some people have reasons against that too. > is a programming language an "Everyday Thing"? No, the book helps by explaining design in terms that are easy to grasp. Then it's possible to apply that basic understanding to other areas. > ...things should be self-documenting and obvious. > You simply can't do that with programming languages. Maybe not completely. Trust me though, we can do better. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: ANN: Dao Language v.0.9.6-beta is release!
So... Python is already flexible. It supports use of (1) tabs, (2) space or (3) a mix of tabs and space to indicate scope. Some people think this is too flexible. It should be cut back to tabs or spaces. The fewer people comfortable with Python, the better. It's better to be "right" than popular. Some people like it just as it is. Don't change ANYTHING! Some people (a lot of the ones that don't give Python a chance) want one more choice, braces. Is that so much to ask for? Does that pretty well sum it up? Thanks for the responses. I've been educated. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
