Re: do ya still use python?

[jkn]

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 7:11:41 AM UTC+1, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Jon Ribbens  writes: 
> > Why do you say that? The group seems quite lively to me (and no I'm 
> > not counting spam etc).
> No there is a lot happening in the Python world that never gets 
> mentioned here. Look at the 3.10 and 3.9.x release notes: many new 
> language features that we'd never have heard of if we only got our news 
> from here. These things would have been the topics of endless 
> discussions back in the day. The newsgroup was once a good place to 
> keep track of what was happening Python-wise, but it no longer is. This 
> is sad.

I agree with Paul - sadly this Usenet forum is seriously less valuable
than it used to be. I have been a semi-lurker here for more than 20 years
(pre Python 1.5) and the S/N ration has massively changed since then.

This is as much a reflection of the reduced status of Usenet groups as in
the rise of Python and the associated change in 'demographic'. But as
another Usenet fan I find it disappointing.

You wouldn't see Tim Peters or even Guido here nowadays, and
Steven D'Aprano was IMO forced out for no good reason ... you see
the results here every day...

J^n

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Re: do ya still use python?

[Alan Gauld via Python-list]

On 20/04/2021 04:47, Dan Stromberg wrote:

> Actually, this list is less busy than it was a decade or two ago, but
> that's probably because of things like stackoverflow, python-dev, pypy-dev,
> cython-devel, python-ideas, distutils-sig, issue trackers, code-quality,
> and probably others.
> 
> There was a time when most python-related discussion happened here on
> python-list/comp.lang.python.
> 

It's also a reflection of Python's maturity in the market. It is no
longer a cute language that folks stumble across and need lots of
support to get up and running. There are all sorts of formal and
informal training routes available. People are far more likely
to have a buddy at work using Python that they can ask stuff.

We see the same trend on the tutor list, traffic has dropped off
by a factor of 3-5 times what it was at its peak. And the questions
are changing too, fewer basic things about loops and writing
functions, more about specific library modules and such. (That's
why I now have time to regularly read this list instead of
dipping in once or twice a month! :-)

-- 
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http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
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Re: do ya still use python?

[X Guest]

we are in ML industry where python is used widely.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 8:53 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-04-20, Paul Rubin  > wrote:
> > Ethan Furman mailto:ethan%40stoneleaf.us>> writes:
> >> List, my apologies -- not sure how that one got through.
> >
> > It was trollishly written but was a reasonable observation on the state
> > of the Usenet group.  I didn't realize it had come through (or reached)
> > the mailing list.  Anyway the state of affairs for us Usenet die-hards
> > isn't so great.
> 
> Why do you say that? The group seems quite lively to me
> (and no I'm not counting spam etc).
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 

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Re: Current thinking on required options

[Roel Schroeven]

Avi Gross via Python-list schreef op 20/04/2021 om 1:56:

Sidestepping the wording of "options" is the very real fact that providing
names for even required parts can be helpful in many cases.


Very true. It's very much like named arguments in Python function calls: 
they help to document precisely and explicitly what's happening, instead 
of having to rely on remembering the order of arguments/options.


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friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger."
-- Franklin P. Jones

Roel Schroeven

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Re: do ya still use python?

[dn via Python-list]

On 20/04/2021 20.32, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
> On 20/04/2021 04:47, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> 
>> Actually, this list is less busy than it was a decade or two ago, but
>> that's probably because of things like stackoverflow, python-dev, pypy-dev,
>> cython-devel, python-ideas, distutils-sig, issue trackers, code-quality,
>> and probably others.
>>
>> There was a time when most python-related discussion happened here on
>> python-list/comp.lang.python.
>>
> 
> It's also a reflection of Python's maturity in the market. It is no
> longer a cute language that folks stumble across and need lots of
> support to get up and running. There are all sorts of formal and
> informal training routes available. People are far more likely
> to have a buddy at work using Python that they can ask stuff.
> 
> We see the same trend on the tutor list, traffic has dropped off
> by a factor of 3-5 times what it was at its peak. And the questions
> are changing too, fewer basic things about loops and writing
> functions, more about specific library modules and such. (That's
> why I now have time to regularly read this list instead of
> dipping in once or twice a month! :-)


+1

As @Dan says, there are now many other avenues of enquiry.

Per @Alan's own, there are also many sources of training and reference
resources. Accordingly, and particularly at the beginner end of the
trail, it is much easier to find an answer oneself (than it once was).

The Python community itself has offered those more-specialised
fora/forums partly in a bid to syphon-off such topics and thus reduce
traffic on the more general list.


Similarly, when was the last time you went to a well-attended PUG
meeting? (cf a PyCon)


Is it a 'failure', or a 'success'?

Are there reasons why someone might prefer StackOverflow to this list?
Are they more to do with the person, or something the Python Community
should address?
-- 
Regards,
=dn
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Re: do ya still use python?

[Terry Reedy]

On 4/20/2021 5:44 PM, dn via Python-list wrote:


Are there reasons why someone might prefer StackOverflow to this list?


For programming questions with testable answers, generally yes.  But I 
sometimes advise SO questioners to redirect questions here when more 
appropriate.


Advantages include that questions and answers can be searched within a 
tag, can be commented separately,  and can be edited.  The latter is 
important.  Web forums that imitate mail lists with indelible sequential 
postings are not much better.



Are they more to do with the person, or something the Python Community
should address?


Not the first, nor the second officially.  But many Python Community 
members already answer python-tagged questions.  I specifically monitor 
python-idle questions.  The PSF could set up a imitation site, or 
perhaps sponsor 'Python Pitstop' on stackexchange, but why bother?


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Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: do ya still use python?

[Terry Reedy]

On 4/20/2021 4:32 AM, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:


We see the same trend on the tutor list, traffic has dropped off
by a factor of 3-5 times what it was at its peak. And the questions
are changing too, fewer basic things about loops and writing
functions, more about specific library modules and such.


I suspect that at least some such questions have good answers on 
StackOverflow that questioners could profitably read first.


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Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: Current thinking on required options

[Loris Bennett]

Roel Schroeven  writes:

> Avi Gross via Python-list schreef op 20/04/2021 om 1:56:
>> Sidestepping the wording of "options" is the very real fact that providing
>> names for even required parts can be helpful in many cases.
>
> Very true. It's very much like named arguments in Python function calls: they
> help to document precisely and explicitly what's happening, instead of having 
> to
> rely on remembering the order of arguments/options.

Thanks to all for the discussion, which I did not think was silly - to
me "option" and "optional" are much more closely related than the two
meanings of "argument", which, while obviously sharing the same root,
have diverged significantly.  However, I am grateful for the cpio and
tar examples.

I'll probably stick with the "required options" and just tweak the
usage output of argparse to make it clear that some options are not
optional :-)

Cheers,

Loris
  
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