Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Mark Lawrence]

On 18/07/2014 01:45, Andrew Berg wrote:

On 2014.07.17 19:26, Mark Lawrence wrote:

I'm looking forward to see the massive number of fixes that come from
rr, assuming of course that he signs the CLA to make this possible.  Or
has he already done so?


Maybe he's too busy working on RickPy 4000 (or whatever it was called).



I believe that rick would be a very apt word in this case.

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what you can do for our language.


Mark Lawrence

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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Mark Lawrence]

On 18/07/2014 03:24, Rick Johnson wrote:

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 1:44:20 PM UTC-5, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

Rick Johnson :

Sure, IDLE is not *useless*, however, it is in fact
woefully inadequate and should be embarrassing to the
whole community, both in it's buggy-ness and it's poorly
written source code.

This is beneath trolling. Redeem yourself by apologizing.


Apologize for what?

For telling the truth?

I have been using IDLE since around 2006, well at least,
that is as far back as i remember. When i first learned
Python, IDLE was my editor of choice, and i *STILL* use IDLE
to this very day! -- although not as much as i have written
my own IDE.

I have logged thousands upon thousands of hours with IDLE,
how many hours have *YOU* logged?

I would even venture to say, and the comments on this list
have supported my evidence for years, that i may be the
*SOLE* heavy user of IDLE in the *ENTIRE* community.
Although, i need to compare my stats with Terry because he
claims to use the software quite often also.

If *ANYBODY* in this damn community has a *RIGHT* to
complain about IDLE, then *I* am that person. HOW DARE YOU
chastise me for voicing my grievances regarding a
software that *YOU* most likely have *NEVER*, or only
*SLIGHTLY*, used!



Please list for everybody to see the issue numbers that you've worked 
on, on IDLE, on the bug tracker.  Thank you.


I now routinely use IDLE as it has been so much improved due to the 
efforts of Terry & Co.  You are conspicious by your absence.


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what you can do for our language.


Mark Lawrence

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Two more newbie questions

[Martin S]

My little newbie app is now coming along nicely. It calculates both
LASK and Elo ratings for chess, so basic functionality is pretty much
complete for my needs.

Now,
a/ What is the "easiest" way of putting a web interface on this CLI
application. I've been looking at various web frameworks but that
seems pretty much targeted more towards larger projects. Not "slapping
a gui" on a cli application.
Any pointers and suggestions appreciated.

b/ Catching user input errors. What is generally the best way of
catching those and doing something sane with it. Entering "asdf"
instead of a rating (like 2014) pretty much kills the little tool
horribly.
Again, pointers to relevant info appreciated. Maybe I've already seen
it but didn't really understand the content ... =/


Regards,

Martin S
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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Ian Kelly]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Rick Johnson
 wrote:
> On Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:15:15 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> For myself, though, I completely do not use the editor half of [IDLE]; but
>> it's spectacularly useful (with limitations) as my primary interactive
>> interpreter.
>
> Yes Chris, i also think that the IDLE shell is "spectacular"
> when i'm using it, especially when i press
> "CONTROL+LEFT_ARROW" and the insertion cursor lands *BEHIND*
> the start of the interactive command marker " >>>", an
> area where key presses are not allowed, so *NOW* I must press
> "CONTROL+RIGHT_ARROW" three times to get to my destination!

I just tried to reproduce this using IDLE 3.4 on Windows and was not able to.

> I'm also just "gushing with exuberance" when i open a new
> block and i get *EIGHT SPACE INDENTION*!

In the file editor when I press Tab I get four spaces as I would
expect, using the default configuration. In the interactive
interpreter I get an actual tab character again as I would expect.
That's probably as it should be since I wouldn't want to not be able
to type a tab character there.
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Re: Two more newbie questions

[Ben Finney]

Martin S  writes:

> a/ What is the "easiest" way of putting a web interface on this CLI
> application. I've been looking at various web frameworks but that
> seems pretty much targeted more towards larger projects. Not "slapping
> a gui" on a cli application.
> Any pointers and suggestions appreciated.

My suggestion: Have a firmer idea of what you want the UI to do.

UI design is a very difficult problem; you are essentially making all
kidns of compromises because humans and their expectations are messy,
unpredictable, and expensive to work with.

So, if by “slap a GUI onto” you mean something that is a no-frills
plain-HTML form, with essentially no assistance for the user and no
error handling, this will be a lot simpler to implement than something
easier for the human to use.

> b/ Catching user input errors. What is generally the best way of
> catching those and doing something sane with it. Entering "asdf"
> instead of a rating (like 2014) pretty much kills the little tool
> horribly.

Right. Handling errors is very much a matter of UX policy for the
application, and can easily consume far more of the programming effort
than merely getting the back-end processing done.

So again, the work to be done here is less Python-specific and much more
about being tediously precise about how you want the user experience to
work. It's difficult, exacting, fiddly work. Fortunately, the more exact
you can be, the more likely a specific recommendation can be made.

-- 
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_o__)  —postsecret.com, 2010-01-19 |
Ben Finney

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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
>> Yes Chris, i also think that the IDLE shell is "spectacular"
>> when i'm using it, especially when i press
>> "CONTROL+LEFT_ARROW" and the insertion cursor lands *BEHIND*
>> the start of the interactive command marker " >>>", an
>> area where key presses are not allowed, so *NOW* I must press
>> "CONTROL+RIGHT_ARROW" three times to get to my destination!
>
> I just tried to reproduce this using IDLE 3.4 on Windows and was not able to.

Actually, now you mention it, I do recall experiencing a bug like this
in previous versions. It's not the case in either my 2.7 (point
something, but I don't remember what) nor 3.4, so I'm guessing it's
been fixed.

ChrisA
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Re: Two more newbie questions

[Shieldfire]

On fre, 2014-07-18 at 18:23 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> Martin S  writes:
> 
> > a/ What is the "easiest" way of putting a web interface on this CLI
> > application. I've been looking at various web frameworks but that
> > seems pretty much targeted more towards larger projects. Not "slapping
> > a gui" on a cli application.
> > Any pointers and suggestions appreciated.
> 
> My suggestion: Have a firmer idea of what you want the UI to do.

> 
> So, if by “slap a GUI onto” you mean something that is a no-frills
> plain-HTML form, with essentially no assistance for the user and no
> error handling, this will be a lot simpler to implement than something
> easier for the human to use.

Pretty much this. Because anyone using the tool would understand what to
enter. There are things like opponent, result, tournament and rating
without which there wouldn't be a need to use the tool in the first
place. 
The only fancy thing I've done in the cli version is for it to remember
some options the users has made previously (like Tournament defaults to
previous post when entering several games)
> 
> > b/ Catching user input errors. What is generally the best way of
> > catching those and doing something sane with it. Entering "asdf"
> > instead of a rating (like 2014) pretty much kills the little tool
> > horribly.
> 
> Right. Handling errors is very much a matter of UX policy for the
> application, and can easily consume far more of the programming effort
> than merely getting the back-end processing done.
> 
> So again, the work to be done here is less Python-specific and much more
> about being tediously precise about how you want the user experience to
> work. 

Basically afaics at this time it is to ensure someone doesn't enter an
incorrect value by mistake (like '' for result, or rating without it
being an integer) and then letting the user correct the entries before
committed.

/Martin S

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Re: Two more newbie questions

[Ben Finney]

Shieldfire  writes:

> On fre, 2014-07-18 at 18:23 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> > So, if by “slap a GUI onto” you mean something that is a no-frills
> > plain-HTML form, with essentially no assistance for the user and no
> > error handling, this will be a lot simpler to implement than
> > something easier for the human to use.
>
> Pretty much this. Because anyone using the tool would understand what to
> enter. There are things like opponent, result, tournament and rating
> without which there wouldn't be a need to use the tool in the first
> place. 

In that case, design the UI as an HTML form; this is a task that
requires no knowledge of Python, since you're just writing according to
basic HTML.


The Amazing Gezundheiticator



The Amazing Gezundheiticator

Fill out the inputs to the program and submit the form.



Foo:



Bar:







That's the input part of the UI; the other part is a response page with
whatever result (error output, requested output, whatever) your back-end
program will create. You'll need to write HTML pages for all the
different kinds of responses your program can produce.

It submits the input as an HTTP request to ‘/uri/to/backend-program’.
The web server's job is to turn that URI into a call to your Python
program; and your program then needs to extract from the HTTP request
the values to process, and generate an HTTP response.

So you have these additional, related tasks for your UI:

* Accepting HTTP requests and routing them to your back-end program.
  You'll need to run a web server of some kind, and configure a map of
  routes from incoming URIs to the corresponding program to handle them
  https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebServers>.

* Generating HTML for all the different kinds of response (requested
  output, error output, requests to re-try, etc.) from the back-end
  program. This is the job of an HTML templating library; see
  https://wiki.python.org/moin/Templating> for details.

  Start simple, with a very bare HTML template populated using the
  standard library's ‘string.Template’ class
  https://docs.python.org/3/library/string.html#template-strings>.

* Serving the resulting generated page as an HTTP response. This needs
  to be handled in a standard way to conform to networking and
  web-browser expectations. The library handling your interface to the
  web server is the best candidate for this task.

If you want a small framework to handle these while letting you keep
your configuration work reasonably simple, I recommend Bottle
http://bottlepy.org/>.

Good hunting!

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Ben Finney

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Node Neighbours

[lavanya addepalli]

I am trying to find the neighbour of pair of Nodes. Individual and
Combined.

I am not getting any idea how to start about.

Any suggestion will be appreciated

Thanks
Lav
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I am stuck on OOP

[Nicholas Cannon]

Just quickly i am quite stuck on OOP and i really need like a good video and i 
cant find any. If anyone knows any please link it i really need it because i 
know OOP is important.
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Checking netlists for equivalence

[varun7rs]

Hello Everyone,

I have tried to understand a code but I'm finding it extremely difficult in 
getting it through my head. I'd be glad if any of you could help me. I 
understood the parsexml function and I'm trying to understand the rest but 
finding it very hard. If any of you could spare your valuable time in 
explaining this code to me,I'd be very grateful and I also can learn a lot from 
your explanations.
Thank You

import sys
import math
import copy


final_list = []

def sat(cnf):
while( len(cnf) > 1 ):
in_item = single_clause(cnf)
if in_item != None:
del_sat(cnf, in_item)
else:
break

for i in cnf:
if len(i) == 0:
cnf.remove(i)
return

if len(cnf) == 1:
final_list.extend( [cnf[0][0]] )
for i in range(0, len(final_list)):
#print final_list
if final_list[i] > 0:
print final_list[i]
print "Not equivalent!"
sys.exit(0)
return final_list
  
deep_copy = copy.deepcopy(cnf)
list2 = cnf[0][0]
del_sat(deep_copy,list2)
sat(deep_copy)

del_sat(cnf,-list2)
sat(cnf)
return

def parseXml(file_1, file_2):
global cnf
readfile_1 = open(file_1, "r")
readfile_2 = open(file_2, "r")

sum_a = int(readfile_1.readline())
sum_b = int(readfile_2.readline())

inputs_1 = readfile_1.readline().split()
inputs_1.sort()
inputs_2 = readfile_2.readline().split()
inputs_2.sort()

outputs_1 = readfile_1.readline().split()
outputs_1.sort()
outputs_2 = readfile_2.readline().split()
outputs_2.sort()

inputmap_1 = {}
inputmap_2 = {}
outputmap_1 = []
outputmap_2 = []

while True:
line = readfile_1.readline().strip()
if not line:
break
net,item = line.split()
inputmap_1[item] = int(net)

while True:
line = readfile_2.readline().strip()
if not line:
break
net,item = line.split()
inputmap_2[item] = int(net)

for line in readfile_1.readlines():
inp1 = line.split()
gate = inp1.pop(0)
mapping = map(int, inp1) 
outputmap_1.extend([(gate, mapping)])

for line in readfile_2.readlines():
inp2 = line.split()
gate = inp2.pop(0)
mapping = map(int, inp2) 
outputmap_2.extend([(gate, mapping)])

return inputs_1, inputs_2, outputs_1, outputs_2, inputmap_1, inputmap_2, 
outputmap_1, outputmap_2

def single_clause(cnf):
for i in cnf:
if len(i) == 1:
return i[0]
return None

def del_sat(cnf,in_item):
cnf2 = cnf[:]
for k in cnf2:
if k.count(in_item):
cnf.remove(k)
for i in cnf:
if i.count( -in_item):
i.remove(-in_item)


def cnf_out(miter):
miter_len = len(miter)
cnf = []
while (miter_len > 0):
x = miter.pop(0)
if ( x[0] == "and" ):
cnf.extend( [[x[1][0], -x[1][2]]] )
cnf.extend( [[x[1][1], -x[1][2]]] )
cnf.extend( [[-x[1][0], -x[1][1], x[1][2]]] )
elif ( x[0] == "or" ):
cnf.extend( [[x[1][0], x[1][1], -x[1][2]]] )
cnf.extend( [[-x[1][0], x[1][2]]] )
cnf.extend( [[-x[1][1], x[1][2]]] )
elif ( x[0] == "xor" ): 
cnf.extend( [[x[1][0], x[1][1], -x[1][2]]] )
cnf.extend( [[-x[1][0], -x[1][1], -x[1][2]]] )
cnf.extend( [[-x[1][0], x[1][1], x[1][2]]] )
cnf.extend( [[x[1][0], -x[1][1], x[1][2]]] )
else:
cnf.extend( [[x[1][0], x[1][1]]] )
cnf.extend( [[-x[1][0], -x[1][1]]] )
miter_len = miter_len - 1

return cnf

inputs_1, inputs_2, outputs_1, outputs_2, inputmap_1, inputmap_2, outputmap_1, 
outputmap_2 = parseXml(sys.argv[1], sys.argv[2])

incoming1=[]
incoming2=[]
outgoing1=[]
outgoing2=[]

for i in inputs_1:
incoming1.extend([inputmap_1[i]])

for j in inputs_2:
incoming2.extend([inputmap_2[j]])

for k in outputs_1:
outgoing1.extend([inputmap_1[k]])

for l in outputs_2:
outgoing2.extend([inputmap_2[l]])

gate_num = 0
for output in outputmap_1:
for j in output[1]:
if gate_num < j:
gate_num = j

map2 = outputmap_2

num = len( map2 )

for i in range(1, num + 1):

j = len( map2[i-1][1] )
for k in range(0, j):
if map2[i-1][1][k] not in incoming2:
total = 0
for l in incoming2:
if map2[i-1][1][k] > l:
total = total + 1
map2[i-1][1][k] = map2[i-1][1][k] + gate_num - total
 

else:
x = incoming2.index( map2[i-1][1][k] )
map2[i-1][1][k] = incoming1[x]

miter = outp

Re: I am stuck on OOP

[Joel Goldstick]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:40 AM, Nicholas Cannon 
wrote:

> Just quickly i am quite stuck on OOP and i really need like a good video
> and i cant find any. If anyone knows any please link it i really need it
> because i know OOP is important.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

That's odd.  I just googled with this string: "python oop tutorial".  I
found enough information to keep me busy all day.

-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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Re: Node Neighbours

[Ben Finney]

lavanya addepalli  writes:

> I am trying to find the neighbour of pair of Nodes. Individual and
> Combined.

Is this a homework question? You might find better assistance over at
the Tutor forum https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor>.

> I am not getting any idea how to start about.

You will need to provide (either here, or at the Tutor forum) much more
information on the problem. What is the data you're working with? What
code do you already have? What do you need to produce as a result? What
have you already tried?

If those questions are too overwhelming, I would definitely recommend
going to the Python Tutor forum where they can help get to the bottom of
what's needed.

-- 
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  `\   and over and over again, for the truth to sink in; to kinda |
_o__)   catapult the propaganda.” —George W. Bush, 2005-05 |
Ben Finney

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Re: I am stuck on OOP

[Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Nicholas Cannon
 wrote:
> Just quickly i am quite stuck on OOP and i really need like a good video and 
> i cant find any. If anyone knows any please link it i really need it because 
> i know OOP is important.

> video

There’s your problem: video tutorials are the most evil invention of
the human race.  It’s hard to learn from them.  You should not watch
any — use text tutorials instead.

-- 
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Python 3.4.1 64 bit Version

[cjwilliams43]

The version given on Python.org is "Python 3.4.1 (v3.4.1:c0e311e010fc, May 18 
2014, 10:45:13) [MSC v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32".

This question is prompted by difficulties installing PyScripter.  What does "on 
win32" mean in the above.  I was using PyScripter on an AMD64 processor with 
Python 2.7.  Now, with an attempt to move to Python 3, I have grief.

How does one install "python-3.4.1.amd64-pdb"?

I would welcome any advice.

Thanks,

Colin W.
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Re: Python 3.4.1 64 bit Version

[Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:29 PM,   wrote:
> The version given on Python.org is "Python 3.4.1 (v3.4.1:c0e311e010fc, May 18 
> 2014, 10:45:13) [MSC v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32".
>
> This question is prompted by difficulties installing PyScripter.  What does 
> "on win32" mean in the above.  I was using PyScripter on an AMD64 processor 
> with Python 2.7.  Now, with an attempt to move to Python 3, I have grief.
>
> How does one install "python-3.4.1.amd64-pdb"?
>
> I would welcome any advice.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Colin W.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

“win32” is the name given to the Windows API as of Windows NT 3.1 and
Windows 95.  The “AMD64” part in parentheses tells the truth, that
you’re actually running the 64-bit version (which can cause problems,
though — it’s better to use the 32-bit version, IMO)

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Re: Python 3.4.1 64 bit Version

[Zachary Ware]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 8:29 AM,   wrote:
> The version given on Python.org is "Python 3.4.1 (v3.4.1:c0e311e010fc, May 18 
> 2014, 10:45:13) [MSC v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32".
>
> This question is prompted by difficulties installing PyScripter.  What does 
> "on win32" mean in the above.  I was using PyScripter on an AMD64 processor 
> with Python 2.7.  Now, with an attempt to move to Python 3, I have grief.
>
> How does one install "python-3.4.1.amd64-pdb"?
>
> I would welcome any advice.

The problem there isn't "on win32", it's ".4" :).  Unless I've just
missed the announcement PyScripter has not been updated to support
Python 3.4, and I haven't figured out a way to trick it into working.
However, PyScripter works fine with Python 3.3, and there were no
syntax changes between 3.3 and 3.4.  What I have found to work fairly
well is to use PyScripter with 3.3, then test your program from a
command prompt with 3.4.

For the record, all versions of CPython on Windows (not counting
anything relating to cygwin) are "on win32" regardless of the
bittedness of the processor or the interpreter.

Hope this helps,
-- 
Zach
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Re: Python 3.4.1 64 bit Version

[Zachary Ware]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick
 wrote:
> “win32” is the name given to the Windows API as of Windows NT 3.1 and
> Windows 95.  The “AMD64” part in parentheses tells the truth, that
> you’re actually running the 64-bit version (which can cause problems,
> though — it’s better to use the 32-bit version, IMO)

What problems have you run into with the 64-bit version?  The only
issues I've had have been my own problems with installing some
versions as 32-bit and others as 64, and forgetting which was which.

-- 
Zach
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Re: Python 3.4.1 64 bit Version

[Andrew Berg]

On 2014.07.18 08:53, Zachary Ware wrote:
> For the record, all versions of CPython on Windows (not counting
> anything relating to cygwin) are "on win32" regardless of the
> bittedness of the processor or the interpreter.
> 
And in case you need more reassurance, there is the platform module in the 
stdlib.
https://docs.python.org/3/library/platform.html
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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-07-18, alex23  wrote:
> On 17/07/2014 1:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> There will never be a Python 2.8. When push comes to shove, the people
>> bitching about Python 3 will not do the work necessary to fork Python 2.7
>> and make a version 2.8.
>
> +1
>
> The idea that forking and maintaining Python 2.8 is somehow _less 
> effort_ than porting code to Python 3.x is batshit crazy. The Py2.8 
> claims seem to me to be nothing more than a shallow attempt to blackmail 
> the core devs.

IMO, it's not even a credible "threat".  It's more like idle whinging
from people whom if given a brand new free BMW with lifetime
maintenance, gasoline, insurance, taxes and registration paid (and a
garage to keep it in) would bitch about the color of the interior.

-- 
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  at   we're all watching PHIL
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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-07-18, Rick Johnson  wrote:
> On Thursday, July 17, 2014 1:44:20 PM UTC-5, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Rick Johnson :

>>> Sure, IDLE is not *useless*, however, it is in fact woefully
>>> inadequate and should be embarrassing to the whole community, both in
>>> it's buggy-ness and it's poorly written source code.

>> This is beneath trolling. Redeem yourself by apologizing.
>
> Apologize for what? 

Oh dear.  Where should we start...

> For telling the truth? 

Possibly, yes.  Truth is no excuse for being rude and insulting.  I've
never used IDLE, so don't know much about it. But, I do know that a
decent, civilized person just doesn't make insulting comments like
that about somebody else's work even if it is true (which I very much
doubt).

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Re: Node Neighbours

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-07-18, lavanya addepalli  wrote:

> I am trying to find the neighbour of pair of Nodes. Individual and
> Combined.

Well start in one of the Node's front room.  Step out the front door
and look around.  Write down all the house numbers you can see.  Maybe
do the same thing outside of the back door.

Repeat for the second node.

Then do something with those two lists.  Or not.

> I am not getting any idea how to start about.

I am not getting any idea of what the problem is about.

More seriously, you're going to have to define "node" "neighbor",
"individual" and "combined" before anybody can even hope to help you.

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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Larry Martell]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Grant Edwards  wrote:
> But, I do know that a
> decent, civilized person just doesn't make insulting comments like
> that about somebody else's work even if it is true (which I very much
> doubt).

Now, _that's_ funny. This is the internet. If you can't stand the heat
get out of the kitchen.
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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Torsten Bronger]

Hallöchen!

Larry Martell writes:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Grant Edwards  
> wrote:
>
>> But, I do know that a decent, civilized person just doesn't make
>> insulting comments like that about somebody else's work even if
>> it is true (which I very much doubt).
>
> Now, _that's_ funny. This is the internet. If you can't stand the
> heat get out of the kitchen.

Now, _that's_ funny. This is the internet. If you can't stand people
who can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Tschö,
Torsten.

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Re: I need an idea for practise!

[AudreyJean]

On 07/17/2014 11:05 AM, Orochi wrote:



and there are many more you can go for "learnstreet.com"


FYI: Learnstreet sent out an email a few weeks ago saying that they are 
shutting down.  Here is a link I found about it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7986979

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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Mark Lawrence]

On 18/07/2014 04:01, alex23 wrote:

On 18/07/2014 10:45 AM, Andrew Berg wrote:

Maybe he's too busy working on RickPy 4000 (or whatever it was called).


I believe the new working name is PypeDream.



For me a very good day just got better with that one, thanks :)

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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[MRAB]

On 2014-07-18 04:37, Rick Johnson wrote:

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:15:15 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:

For myself, though, I completely do not use the editor half of [IDLE]; but
it's spectacularly useful (with limitations) as my primary interactive
interpreter.


Yes Chris, i also think that the IDLE shell is "spectacular"
when i'm using it, especially when i press
"CONTROL+LEFT_ARROW" and the insertion cursor lands *BEHIND*
the start of the interactive command marker " >>>", an
area where key presses are not allowed, so *NOW* I must press
"CONTROL+RIGHT_ARROW" three times to get to my destination!

I'm also just "gushing with exuberance" when i open a new
block and i get *EIGHT SPACE INDENTION*!

And I get a raging semi each time IDLE hangs between run
sessions when i'm editing Tkinter code, yes Chris,  I GET A
BIG FAT ERECTION! Sometimes, when it does not go away
after four hours, i have to visit the local emergency room
and take some pills.

  THAT'S HOW MUCH I JUST *LOVE* THIS CRAPPY SOFTWARE CHRIS!

  I'M SO GLAD WE CAN SHARE THESE "WONDERFUL" EXPERIENCES TOGETHER!

  MAYBE NEXT WE CAN RE-INACT THE LAST SCENE OF ROMEO AND JULIETTE?


[...] The only problem I have with it is that blatting
ridiculous amounts of text to the console can take a very
long time, esp on Windows. If I accidentally display a
large object when I thought I was displaying a small one,
it'll hang for quite a while, churning through something,
and it's not easy to see why or to halt it. But I suspect
that's more of a Windows and/or Tk issue than an Idle one.


The *PROBLEM* is that user has no method of "undo-ing" an
accidental display of huge amounts of data , forcing the
user to close and then re-open the entire software -- can
you understand now *WHY* i complain about this software?

This is *EMBARRASSING*, and you should *ALL* be ashamed
that, not only does Python include such an amateurish piece
of crap software, but it has been there for years!

 UNCHANGED FOR YEARS!!!


I'm sorry to hear that you've been suffering all these years. If only
there were a way to fix it.

Here's a suggestion for the Python community: how about opening up the
source code and letting people contribute fixes? We could call this
"open source".

We could even open the source for CPython itself! Could that work?

What do you think?

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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Mark Lawrence]

On 18/07/2014 04:37, Rick Johnson wrote:

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:15:15 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:

For myself, though, I completely do not use the editor half of [IDLE]; but
it's spectacularly useful (with limitations) as my primary interactive
interpreter.


Yes Chris, i also think that the IDLE shell is "spectacular"
when i'm using it, especially when i press
"CONTROL+LEFT_ARROW" and the insertion cursor lands *BEHIND*
the start of the interactive command marker " >>>", an
area where key presses are not allowed, so *NOW* I must press
"CONTROL+RIGHT_ARROW" three times to get to my destination!

I'm also just "gushing with exuberance" when i open a new
block and i get *EIGHT SPACE INDENTION*!

And I get a raging semi each time IDLE hangs between run
sessions when i'm editing Tkinter code, yes Chris,  I GET A
BIG FAT ERECTION! Sometimes, when it does not go away
after four hours, i have to visit the local emergency room
and take some pills.

  THAT'S HOW MUCH I JUST *LOVE* THIS CRAPPY SOFTWARE CHRIS!

  I'M SO GLAD WE CAN SHARE THESE "WONDERFUL" EXPERIENCES TOGETHER!

  MAYBE NEXT WE CAN RE-INACT THE LAST SCENE OF ROMEO AND JULIETTE?


[...] The only problem I have with it is that blatting
ridiculous amounts of text to the console can take a very
long time, esp on Windows. If I accidentally display a
large object when I thought I was displaying a small one,
it'll hang for quite a while, churning through something,
and it's not easy to see why or to halt it. But I suspect
that's more of a Windows and/or Tk issue than an Idle one.


The *PROBLEM* is that user has no method of "undo-ing" an
accidental display of huge amounts of data , forcing the
user to close and then re-open the entire software -- can
you understand now *WHY* i complain about this software?

This is *EMBARRASSING*, and you should *ALL* be ashamed
that, not only does Python include such an amateurish piece
of crap software, but it has been there for years!

 UNCHANGED FOR YEARS!!!



This is patently wrong, IDLE is constantly being improved.  I also don't 
recall ever seeing a bug report from yourself about IDLE.  Your gretest 
strength seems to be complaining, your biggest weakness doing anything 
about whatever it is that you're complaining about.


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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Mark Lawrence]

On 18/07/2014 09:27, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:

Yes Chris, i also think that the IDLE shell is "spectacular"
when i'm using it, especially when i press
"CONTROL+LEFT_ARROW" and the insertion cursor lands *BEHIND*
the start of the interactive command marker " >>>", an
area where key presses are not allowed, so *NOW* I must press
"CONTROL+RIGHT_ARROW" three times to get to my destination!


I just tried to reproduce this using IDLE 3.4 on Windows and was not able to.


Actually, now you mention it, I do recall experiencing a bug like this
in previous versions. It's not the case in either my 2.7 (point
something, but I don't remember what) nor 3.4, so I'm guessing it's
been fixed.

ChrisA



Fixed by whom, Terry Reedy & Co or rr?

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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Mark Lawrence]

On 18/07/2014 16:46, MRAB wrote:

On 2014-07-18 04:37, Rick Johnson wrote:

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:15:15 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:

For myself, though, I completely do not use the editor half of
[IDLE]; but
it's spectacularly useful (with limitations) as my primary interactive
interpreter.


Yes Chris, i also think that the IDLE shell is "spectacular"
when i'm using it, especially when i press
"CONTROL+LEFT_ARROW" and the insertion cursor lands *BEHIND*
the start of the interactive command marker " >>>", an
area where key presses are not allowed, so *NOW* I must press
"CONTROL+RIGHT_ARROW" three times to get to my destination!

I'm also just "gushing with exuberance" when i open a new
block and i get *EIGHT SPACE INDENTION*!

And I get a raging semi each time IDLE hangs between run
sessions when i'm editing Tkinter code, yes Chris,  I GET A
BIG FAT ERECTION! Sometimes, when it does not go away
after four hours, i have to visit the local emergency room
and take some pills.

  THAT'S HOW MUCH I JUST *LOVE* THIS CRAPPY SOFTWARE CHRIS!

  I'M SO GLAD WE CAN SHARE THESE "WONDERFUL" EXPERIENCES TOGETHER!

  MAYBE NEXT WE CAN RE-INACT THE LAST SCENE OF ROMEO AND JULIETTE?


[...] The only problem I have with it is that blatting
ridiculous amounts of text to the console can take a very
long time, esp on Windows. If I accidentally display a
large object when I thought I was displaying a small one,
it'll hang for quite a while, churning through something,
and it's not easy to see why or to halt it. But I suspect
that's more of a Windows and/or Tk issue than an Idle one.


The *PROBLEM* is that user has no method of "undo-ing" an
accidental display of huge amounts of data , forcing the
user to close and then re-open the entire software -- can
you understand now *WHY* i complain about this software?

This is *EMBARRASSING*, and you should *ALL* be ashamed
that, not only does Python include such an amateurish piece
of crap software, but it has been there for years!

 UNCHANGED FOR YEARS!!!


I'm sorry to hear that you've been suffering all these years. If only
there were a way to fix it.

Here's a suggestion for the Python community: how about opening up the
source code and letting people contribute fixes? We could call this
"open source".

We could even open the source for CPython itself! Could that work?

What do you think?



That plan is so cunning it makes Baldrick's cunning plans look good :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldrick

Actually I believe we should just leave things alone, if it ain't broke, 
don't fix it.


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Mark Lawrence

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Re: NaN comparisons - Call For Anecdotes

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 01:36:24 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 1:12 AM, Johann Hibschman 
> wrote:
>> Well, I just spotted this thread.  An easy example is, well, pretty
>> much any case where SQL NULL would be useful.  Say I have lists of
>> borrowers, the amount owed, and the amount they paid so far.
>>
>> nan = float("nan")
>> borrowers = ["Alice", "Bob", "Clem", "Dan"] amount_owed = [100.0,
>> nan, 200.0, 300.0] amount_paid = [100.0, nan, nan, 200.0]
>> who_paid_off = [b for (b, ao, ap) in
>>   zip(borrowers, amount_owed, amount_paid)
>>   if ao == ap]
>>
>> I want to just get Alice from that list, not Bob.  I don't know how
>> much Bow owes or how much he's paid, so I certainly don't know that
>> he's paid off his loan.
>>
>>
> But you also don't know that he hasn't. NaN doesn't mean "unknown", it
> means "Not a Number". You need a more sophisticated system that allows
> for uncertainty in your data. I would advise using either None or a
> dedicated singleton (something like `unknown = object()` would work, or
> you could make a custom type with a more useful repr)

Hmmm, there's something to what you say there, but IEEE-754 NANs seem to 
have been designed to do quadruple (at least!) duty with multiple 
meanings, including:

- Missing values ("I took a reading, but I can't read my handwriting").

- Data known only qualitatively, not quantitatively (e.g. windspeed =
  "fearsome").

- Inapplicable values, e.g. the average depth of the oceans on Mars.

- The result of calculations which are mathematically indeterminate,
  such as 0/0.

- The result of real-valued calculations which are invalid due to
  domain errors, such as sqrt(-1) or acos(2.5).

- The result of calculations which are conceptually valid, but are
  unknown due to limitations of floats, e.g. you have two finite
  quantities which have both overflowed to INF, the difference
  between them ought to be finite, but there's no way to tell what
  it should be.


It seems to me that the way you treat a NAN will often depend on which 
category it falls under. E.g. when taking the average of a set of values, 
missing values ought to be skipped over, while actual indeterminate NANs 
ought to carry through:

average([1, 1, 1, Missing, 1]) => 1
average([1, 1, 1, 0/0, 1]) => NAN

I know that R distinguishes between NA and IEEE-754 NANs, although I'm 
not sure how complete its support for NANs is. But many (most?) R 
functions take an argument controlling whether or not to ignore NA values.

In principle, you can encode the different meanings into NANs using the 
payload. There are 9007199254740988 possible Python float NANs. Half of 
these are signalling NANs, half are quiet NANs. Ignoring the sign bit 
leaves us with 2251799813685247 distinct sNANs and the same qNANs. That's 
enough to encode a *lot* of different meanings.

[Aside: I find myself perplexed why IEEE-754 says that the sign bit of 
NANs should be ignored, but then specifies that another bit is to be used 
to distinguish signalling from quiet NANs. Why not just interpret NANs 
with the sign bit set are signalling, those with it clear are quiet?]



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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 10:36:43 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:

> On Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:48:38 AM UTC-5, alex23 wrote:
>> PHP regularly breaks compatibility between _minor_ version releases:
>> [...] more so with major releases: [...] yet I never see anywhere near
>> as much angst and agony as Python 3.x has caused.
> 
> Because you *IGNORE* the fact that people *ACTIVELY* choose to use
> languages like Python, however, people *MOSTLY* use languages like PHP
> and Javascript because they are *FORCED*

That explains all those concentration camps in North Korea, filled with 
political prisoners sentenced to 30 years of PHP programming.



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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 11:15:59 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:

> On Thursday, July 17, 2014 5:12:23 AM UTC-5, Fabien wrote:
>> For non-informatic students [...] I don't think that's true. Less
>> general languages like Matlab appear much easier to me: unified doc,
>> unified IDE, unified debugger
> 
> I'll agree that the lack of a "quality" IDE in Python is a point of
> inadequacy. 

https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments

PyDev, Eric, Komodo, PyCharm, WingIDE, SPE, Ninja-IDE, Geany, IEP, 
Spyder, Boa Constructor, PyScripter, NetBeans, Emacs, KDevelop, 
BlackAdder, ...



[...]
> Sadly, all of my calls to improve IDLE have been meet with rebukes about
> me "whining". 

Why don't you go volunteer to fix a few IDLE bugs, instead of just 
demanding that others do it?

http://bugs.python.org/issue17620



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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Mark Lawrence]

On 18/07/2014 19:20, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 11:15:59 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:


Sadly, all of my calls to improve IDLE have been meet with rebukes about
me "whining".


Why don't you go volunteer to fix a few IDLE bugs, instead of just
demanding that others do it?

http://bugs.python.org/issue17620



Has time to complain but doesn't have time to fix bugs?

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Re: I am stuck on OOP

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 14:37:47 +0200, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Nicholas Cannon
>  wrote:
>> Just quickly i am quite stuck on OOP and i really need like a good
>> video and i cant find any. If anyone knows any please link it i really
>> need it because i know OOP is important.
> 
>> video
> 
> There’s your problem: video tutorials are the most evil invention of the
> human race.  It’s hard to learn from them.  You should not watch any —
> use text tutorials instead.

Oh, I think that's a bit harsh. I would normally agree with you about 
text being better than video, but I watched a video explaining git and it 
made much more sense than anything I've read.



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Re: Python 3.4.1 64 bit Version

[Colin J. Williams]

Thanks to Chris and Zachary,

I shall retreat to Python 3.3

*pro tem*

*Colin W.*


On 18 July 2014 09:53, Zachary Ware  wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 8:29 AM,   wrote:
> > The version given on Python.org is "Python 3.4.1 (v3.4.1:c0e311e010fc,
> May 18 2014, 10:45:13) [MSC v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32".
> >
> > This question is prompted by difficulties installing PyScripter.  What
> does "on win32" mean in the above.  I was using PyScripter on an AMD64
> processor with Python 2.7.  Now, with an attempt to move to Python 3, I
> have grief.
> >
> > How does one install "python-3.4.1.amd64-pdb"?
> >
> > I would welcome any advice.
>
> The problem there isn't "on win32", it's ".4" :).  Unless I've just
> missed the announcement PyScripter has not been updated to support
> Python 3.4, and I haven't figured out a way to trick it into working.
> However, PyScripter works fine with Python 3.3, and there were no
> syntax changes between 3.3 and 3.4.  What I have found to work fairly
> well is to use PyScripter with 3.3, then test your program from a
> command prompt with 3.4.
>
> For the record, all versions of CPython on Windows (not counting
> anything relating to cygwin) are "on win32" regardless of the
> bittedness of the processor or the interpreter.
>
> Hope this helps,
> --
> Zach
>
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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 20:13:44 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 7/17/2014 2:15 PM, Rick Johnson wrote: a partial disinformation rant
> again Idle that repeats things said before, more than once.
[...]


Thanks for the detailed explanation Terry, and especially thanks for the 
good work you have done on IDLE. I'll admit I don't use it, I dislike the 
UI, but given all the solid work you and the GSOC students have put into 
it, perhaps I ought to check it out again soon.



> Still more facts ;-). About three (four?) years ago, you posted a
> similar rant. Being wise, I encouraged your participation and utilized
> the patch you anonymously posted on the tracker (to maintain your
> Ranting Rick pose) in one of my first commits.

Well well, I must admit I am shocked to learn that Rick has actually 
written some Python code.


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Re: I am stuck on OOP

[Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick]

On Jul 18, 2014 8:36 PM, "Steven D'Aprano" <
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
> I would normally agree with you about
> text being better than video, but I watched a video explaining git and it
> made much more sense than anything I've read.

Yes, exceptions do exist. But most video tutorials are produced by people
without enough knowledge, and people that should not be working on
educational material. This is especially visible in videos about basic
things: they can be produced by just about anyone with a microphone — which
never leads to anything good. (In order to be more precise, I'd have to be
politically incorrect.)

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Re: Python 3.4.1 64 bit Version

[Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Zachary Ware
 wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick
>  wrote:
>> “win32” is the name given to the Windows API as of Windows NT 3.1 and
>> Windows 95.  The “AMD64” part in parentheses tells the truth, that
>> you’re actually running the 64-bit version (which can cause problems,
>> though — it’s better to use the 32-bit version, IMO)
>
> What problems have you run into with the 64-bit version?  The only
> issues I've had have been my own problems with installing some
> versions as 32-bit and others as 64, and forgetting which was which.

This is one of the issues: you can easily mess up 32-bit and 64-bit,
and not even notice that (AppVeyor had an issue with that lately —
they switched python to 64 but left VC++ as 32).

It’s also slightly easier to find pre-made binaries for 32-bit than
64-bit.  In general, life in 64-bits on Windows is kinda hard, for
everyone involved.


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OT: usenet reader software

[memilanuk]

Given the ongoing hub-bub about Google Groups and some recent long 
threads where I *really* wanted to be able to mute/ignore certain 
individuals/subjects... I started looking into other choices for Usenet 
reader software again.  I use news.gmane.org as a mail2news gateway for 
reading a lot of lists besides just this one, and gmane is about the 
most convenient way to do so without being bombarded by emails every day.


I'm on Ubuntu (14.04 LTS, if it matters) and I've been using Thunderbird 
for a lng time... I've tinkered with slrn off and on over the years, 
tried pan occasionally due to recommendations... but I keep ending up 
back @ Thunderbird.  About the only thing it doesn't do that I really 
want is scoring/kill-files.  Slrn has those, and I do use vim on 
occasion so that worked well enough... but when people *do* post links 
or html it didn't handle that stuff gracefully like Thunderbird.  Pan... 
locks up and crashes often enough to be annoying, and I can't get it to 
display 'Threads with Unread' (i.e. new unread posts *with* their 
associated threads for context) - just 'Unread' or 'everything'.  Never 
messed with gnus... emacs was never really my thing.


Guess where I'm going with this is... is there anything out there worth 
trying - on Linux - that I'm missing?


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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[MRAB]

On 2014-07-18 19:20, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 11:15:59 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:


On Thursday, July 17, 2014 5:12:23 AM UTC-5, Fabien wrote:

For non-informatic students [...] I don't think that's true. Less
general languages like Matlab appear much easier to me: unified
doc, unified IDE, unified debugger


I'll agree that the lack of a "quality" IDE in Python is a point of
inadequacy.


https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments

PyDev, Eric, Komodo, PyCharm, WingIDE, SPE, Ninja-IDE, Geany, IEP,
Spyder, Boa Constructor, PyScripter, NetBeans, Emacs, KDevelop,
BlackAdder, ...


[snip]

Yes, but _apart_ from PyDev, Eric, Komodo, PyCharm, WingIDE, SPE,
Ninja-IDE, Geany, IEP, Spyder, Boa Constructor, PyScripter, NetBeans,
Emacs, KDevelop and BlackAdder, why isn't there a "quality" IDE?

(Sorry, but it had to be said. :-))
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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Marko Rauhamaa]

memilanuk :

> Guess where I'm going with this is... is there anything out there
> worth trying - on Linux - that I'm missing?

I use GNUS under emacs for both news and mail.

Its main selling point is that the same keyboard commands work for news,
mail, Python, C, gdb, pdb, guile. IOW, there is one tool for typing and
editing text.


Marko
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Re: NaN comparisons - Call For Anecdotes

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 3:57 AM, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
> Hmmm, there's something to what you say there, but IEEE-754 NANs seem to
> have been designed to do quadruple (at least!) duty with multiple
> meanings, including:
>
> - Missing values ("I took a reading, but I can't read my handwriting").
>
> - Data known only qualitatively, not quantitatively (e.g. windspeed =
>   "fearsome").
>
> - Inapplicable values, e.g. the average depth of the oceans on Mars.
>
> - The result of calculations which are mathematically indeterminate,
>   such as 0/0.
>
> - The result of real-valued calculations which are invalid due to
>   domain errors, such as sqrt(-1) or acos(2.5).
>
> - The result of calculations which are conceptually valid, but are
>   unknown due to limitations of floats, e.g. you have two finite
>   quantities which have both overflowed to INF, the difference
>   between them ought to be finite, but there's no way to tell what
>   it should be.

Huh, okay. I thought the definition of NaN was based on the fourth one
(mathematically indeterminate) and then it logically accepted the
subsequent two (sqrt(-1) IMO is better handled by either a complex
number or a thrown error, but NaN does make some sense there;
definitely inf-inf => nan is as logical as 0/0 => nan). The first two
seem to be better handled by SQL's NULL value (or non-value, or
something, or maybe not something); the third is a bit trickier.
Although "the average of no values" is logically calculated as 0/0
(ergo NaN makes sense there), I would say NaN isn't really right for a
truly inapplicable value - for instance, recording the mass of a
non-physical object. In an inventory system, it's probably simplest to
use 0.0 to mean "non-physical item", but it might be worth
distinguishing between "physical item with sufficiently low mass that
it underflows our measurements" (like a single sheet of paper when
you're working with postal scales) and "non-physical item with no
meaningful mass" (like credit card fees). In that case, I'm not sure
that NaN is really appropriate to the situation, but would defer to
IEE 754 on the subject.

Obviously it's possible to abuse anything to mean anything (I do
remember using nullable fields in DB2 to mean everything from "inherit
this value from parent" to "here be magic, code will work out the real
value on the fly"), but this is a question of intent and good design.

ChrisA
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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Andrew Berg]

On 2014.07.18 14:10, memilanuk wrote:
> I'm on Ubuntu (14.04 LTS, if it matters) and I've been using Thunderbird 
> for a lng time... I've tinkered with slrn off and on over the years, 
> tried pan occasionally due to recommendations... but I keep ending up 
> back @ Thunderbird.  About the only thing it doesn't do that I really 
> want is scoring/kill-files.
Tools -> Message Filters...
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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Warren Post]

On 07/18/2014 01:10 PM, memilanuk wrote:

... is there anything out there worth
trying - on Linux - that I'm missing?


You've already tried them, but I bounce between Thunderbird and Pan. The 
former because it's integrated with the most of the rest of my messaging 
(mail, RSS); the latter for its great filtering. I too have had 
stability problems with Pan, but compiling from source fixed that for me.


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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[alister]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:10:02 -0700, memilanuk wrote:

> Given the ongoing hub-bub about Google Groups and some recent long
> threads where I *really* wanted to be able to mute/ignore certain
> individuals/subjects... I started looking into other choices for Usenet
> reader software again.  I use news.gmane.org as a mail2news gateway for
> reading a lot of lists besides just this one, and gmane is about the
> most convenient way to do so without being bombarded by emails every
> day.
> 
> I'm on Ubuntu (14.04 LTS, if it matters) and I've been using Thunderbird
> for a lng time... I've tinkered with slrn off and on over the years,
> tried pan occasionally due to recommendations... but I keep ending up
> back @ Thunderbird.  About the only thing it doesn't do that I really
> want is scoring/kill-files.  Slrn has those, and I do use vim on
> occasion so that worked well enough... but when people *do* post links
> or html it didn't handle that stuff gracefully like Thunderbird.  Pan...
> locks up and crashes often enough to be annoying, and I can't get it to
> display 'Threads with Unread' (i.e. new unread posts *with* their
> associated threads for context) - just 'Unread' or 'everything'.  Never
> messed with gnus... emacs was never really my thing.
> 
> Guess where I'm going with this is... is there anything out there worth
> trying - on Linux - that I'm missing?

interesting
apart from an issue i had with multiple postings (due to a setting change 
i made) I have never had any issues with pan




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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Sturla Molden]

> Guess where I'm going with this is... is there anything out there worth 
> trying - on Linux - that I'm missing?

leafnode

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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[memilanuk]

On 07/18/2014 12:34 PM, Andrew Berg wrote:

On 2014.07.18 14:10, memilanuk wrote:

I'm on Ubuntu (14.04 LTS, if it matters) and I've been using Thunderbird
for a lng time... I've tinkered with slrn off and on over the years,
tried pan occasionally due to recommendations... but I keep ending up
back @ Thunderbird.  About the only thing it doesn't do that I really
want is scoring/kill-files.

Tools -> Message Filters...



Yeah... never seems to work quite the same - or consistently.

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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Paul Rudin]

memilanuk  writes:

> Guess where I'm going with this is... is there anything out there worth trying
> - on Linux - that I'm missing?

emacs/gnus.
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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[memilanuk]

On 07/18/2014 01:46 PM, Sturla Molden wrote:

Guess where I'm going with this is... is there anything out there worth
trying - on Linux - that I'm missing?


leafnode



Used leafnode way back when... correct me if I'm wrong, but if memory 
serves its a small news spool /server, not really a client/reader type 
application.  Used to be popular back before slrnpull came about.


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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Rick Johnson]

On Friday, July 18, 2014 1:20:10 PM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> PyDev, Eric, Komodo, PyCharm, WingIDE, SPE, Ninja-IDE,
> Geany, IEP, Spyder, Boa Constructor, PyScripter, NetBeans,
> Emacs, KDevelop, BlackAdder, ...

And tell me Steven, how many of those "quality" IDEs that
you listed actually *SHIP* with Python?

The *WHOLE* reason for GvR *CREATING* and then *SHIPPING*
IDLE, was to provide a simplistic native IDE for the noobs.
That was his gift to the noobs, HOWEVER, this community has
*SQUANDERED* that gift, and allowed it putrefy for over a
decade and a half!

A noob has not idea what an IDE *IS*, much less where to
find a decent IDE, or what IDEs are even compatible with
Python! IDLE was meant to provide a tool by which noobs can
use to start writing Python code "out of the box".

Do you remember the acronym of "CP4E"[1]? Sadly, most people
in this community seem to forgotten, *MAYBE* even the
dicktator himself!

[1]: https://www.python.org/doc/essays/cp4e/

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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Sturla Molden]

memilanuk  wrote:

> Used leafnode way back when... correct me if I'm wrong, but if memory 
> serves its a small news spool /server, not really a client/reader type 
> application.  Used to be popular back before slrnpull came about.

Leafnode is an NNTP proxy server. It allows you to filter messages on
headers, etc. Just run Leafnode and tell Thunderbird to use localhost as
NNTP server. Whomever you plonk with Leafnode's killfilter will never be
seen in Thunderbird.

Sturla

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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[memilanuk]

On 07/18/2014 02:45 PM, Sturla Molden wrote:

memilanuk  wrote:


Used leafnode way back when... correct me if I'm wrong, but if memory
serves its a small news spool /server, not really a client/reader type
application.  Used to be popular back before slrnpull came about.


Leafnode is an NNTP proxy server. It allows you to filter messages on
headers, etc. Just run Leafnode and tell Thunderbird to use localhost as
NNTP server. Whomever you plonk with Leafnode's killfilter will never be
seen in Thunderbird.



Ah... I see.  Guess I never explored that facet of leafnode's functionality.

Thanks,

Monte


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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Ned Batchelder]

On 7/18/14 5:37 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

On Friday, July 18, 2014 1:20:10 PM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

PyDev, Eric, Komodo, PyCharm, WingIDE, SPE, Ninja-IDE,
Geany, IEP, Spyder, Boa Constructor, PyScripter, NetBeans,
Emacs, KDevelop, BlackAdder, ...


And tell me Steven, how many of those "quality" IDEs that
you listed actually *SHIP* with Python?

The *WHOLE* reason for GvR *CREATING* and then *SHIPPING*
IDLE, was to provide a simplistic native IDE for the noobs.
That was his gift to the noobs, HOWEVER, this community has
*SQUANDERED* that gift, and allowed it putrefy for over a
decade and a half!

A noob has not idea what an IDE *IS*, much less where to
find a decent IDE, or what IDEs are even compatible with
Python! IDLE was meant to provide a tool by which noobs can
use to start writing Python code "out of the box".

Do you remember the acronym of "CP4E"[1]? Sadly, most people
in this community seem to forgotten, *MAYBE* even the
dicktator himself!

[1]: https://www.python.org/doc/essays/cp4e/



As a group, we have dealt with caustic respondents before.  The way to 
get them to stop dragging threads into pointless arguments is to ignore 
them.  I would advise doing the same in this case.  All I see here is 
disrespectful trolling.


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Re: L-system equations drawing tool

[Terry Reedy]

On 7/17/2014 5:38 PM, Yaşar Arabacı wrote:

Hi,

I wrote a small program to draw L-system equations using tkinter. You
can find it on https://github.com/yasar11732/tklsystem

It is still under development, but seems to be working nice so far. I
could only try it on windows, but it should work on Linux too.

You will need Python 3.x to run it. PIL/Pillow is optional but highly
recommended. It allows faster rendering and ability to save images.

You can also save your equations and load them later.

Try it and comment it if you are interested. Bug reports and
contributions are also welcome.


As near as I can tell, this is a collection of modules rather than a 
package. This means that for imports like these to work:


from l_system_utils import cached_expand_string
from lsturtle import Turtle

the containing directory must be added to the search path, as is done by 
running from within the directory. That is ok for now and what I will try.



However, if your repository were a package, lsystem, with a blank 
__init__.py and __main__.py containing


from lsystem import main
main.main()

and main.py contained an expanded version of the current ending

def main():
root = tk.Tk()
app = Main(root)
root.bind("", lambda _: app.render_image())
app.run()

if __name__ == "__main__":
main()

and the module names prefixed wither either 'lsystem/' or './' (for 
relative imports)


and the package were installed in lib/site-packages, it would then run 
with pythonw -m lsystem (or pyw -3 -m lsystem, I believe)


pip (at least by default) installs packages in site-packages. It will 
also add a file to /scripts though I don't know the setup to do that.

---

Copying the examples directory withing the non-package directory to my 
home directory with this


self.lsf_dir = expanduser(join("~", "lsf-files"))
if not isdir(self.lsf_dir):
from shutil import copytree
from os.path import dirname
examples = join(dirname(__file__), "examples")
copytree(examples, self.lsf_dir)

means that deleting the directory will not remove everything. Not nice. 
Also unnecessary. Regardless of where you save, read them from the 
original directory.


Actually, the files are so small, that you could instead make them 
entries in one examples.cfg file, much like Idle does with extensions 
(for instance) using configparser.ConfigParser.  You could then save to 
a single user.cfg file.  Example entry:


[dragon curve]
iterations= 12
angle= 90
axiom= FX
rule1= X:X+YF+
rule2= Y:-FX-Y
rule3=
rule4=
constants=

---
If I hit 'load', the file dialog opens in idlelib.
If I hit [cancel], I get an error, probably from trying to open None.
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Programs\Python34\lib\tkinter\__init__.py", line 1487, in 
__call__

return self.func(*args)
  File "main.pyw", line 248, in load_from_file
with open(fname, "r") as f:
FileNotFoundError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: ''


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Re: Python 3.4.1 64 bit Version

[Terry Reedy]

On 7/18/2014 2:56 PM, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:


It’s also slightly easier to find pre-made binaries for 32-bit than
64-bit.


Searching 'python windows binaries' on Google and the first hit is 
http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/
"This page provides 32- and 64-bit Windows binaries of many scientific 
open-source extension packages for the official CPython distribution of 
the Python programming language."


He or they are currently compiling both 32 and 64 bits binaries for 2.7, 
3.3, and 3.4.


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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Terry Reedy]

On 7/17/2014 8:26 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:

On 18/07/2014 01:13, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 7/17/2014 2:15 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
a partial disinformation rant again Idle
that repeats things said before, more than once.

Still more facts ;-). About three (four?) years ago, you posted a
similar rant. Being wise, I encouraged your participation and utilized
the patch you anonymously posted on the tracker (to maintain your
Ranting Rick pose) in one of my first commits. I invite you to resume
your participation, either anonymously or openly.  As before, you can
email me privately to discuss what would best suite you and also be
helpful.



I'm looking forward to see the massive number of fixes that come from
rr, assuming of course that he signs the CLA to make this possible.  Or
has he already done so?


I don't remember the alias to check.


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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Terry Reedy]

On 7/17/2014 10:39 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

IDLE (or Idle; Terry
seems to spell it the latter way, I'm not sure what's the official
recommendation now),


You found me out ;-). FORTRAN is now Fortran, and I hate typing IDLE, 
and that spelling somehow strikes me as pretentious, so I decided to 
un-officially promote Idle by typing it this way.


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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Terry Reedy]

On 7/17/2014 11:37 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:15:15 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:

For myself, though, I completely do not use the editor half of [IDLE]; but
it's spectacularly useful (with limitations) as my primary interactive
interpreter.


Yes Chris, i also think that the IDLE shell is "spectacular"
when i'm using it, especially when i press
"CONTROL+LEFT_ARROW" and the insertion cursor lands *BEHIND*
the start of the interactive command marker " >>>",


What ancient version, or oddball system are you using? For me, Win 7, 
both 2.7.8 and 3.4.1
>>> abc "CONTROL+LEFT_ARROW" and the cursor is before the 'a'. The HOME 
key goes to the same place first, and they before >>> on the second 
press (and before 'a' on the third).


> an

area where key presses are not allowed, so *NOW* I must press
"CONTROL+RIGHT_ARROW" three times to get to my destination!


If see different behavior with *current* Python+Idle, please give 
details. Let's try to find out why and fix it. Check 
.idlerc/config-keys.cfg in your home directory.



I'm also just "gushing with exuberance" when i open a new
block and i get *EIGHT SPACE INDENTION*!


http://bugs.python.org/issue7676 "IDLE shell shouldn't use TABs"
is a high-priority for me. The problem is agreeing on an *exact* 
specification for new behavior, that takes into account both the 
limitations and flexibility of tk. Maybe I should start a thread here or 
python-ideas, where people are willing to discuss details.




IDLE hangs between run
sessions when i'm editing Tkinter code


I cannot connect this description to behavior I have seen.


[...] The only problem I have with it is that blatting
ridiculous amounts of text to the console can take a very
long time, esp on Windows. If I accidentally display a
large object when I thought I was displaying a small one,
it'll hang for quite a while, churning through something,
and it's not easy to see why or to halt it. But I suspect
that's more of a Windows and/or Tk issue than an Idle one.


^C 'should' stop output 'eventually'.  Sometimes does, sometimes not.


The *PROBLEM* is that user has no method of "undo-ing" an
accidental display of huge amounts of data , forcing the
user to close and then re-open the entire software


I believe there is a proposal to be able to clear the shell window. We 
just need to add "Clear and restart shell". There is also an idea to put 
help output in an output window. Undo-ing the result of hitting  
seems like a sensible extension of undoing the result of hitting a key 
in the editor.


I opened "Idle: better management of Shell window output"
http://bugs.python.org/issue22010
for all three ideas, and gave you credit for part of the undo idea.


 UNCHANGED FOR YEARS!!!


So sign the contributor agreement and volunteer to write and review patches.

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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Terry Reedy]

On 7/18/2014 11:50 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:

On 18/07/2014 09:27, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:

Yes Chris, i also think that the IDLE shell is "spectacular"
when i'm using it, especially when i press
"CONTROL+LEFT_ARROW" and the insertion cursor lands *BEHIND*
the start of the interactive command marker " >>>", an
area where key presses are not allowed, so *NOW* I must press
"CONTROL+RIGHT_ARROW" three times to get to my destination!


I just tried to reproduce this using IDLE 3.4 on Windows and was not
able to.


Actually, now you mention it, I do recall experiencing a bug like this
in previous versions. It's not the case in either my 2.7 (point
something, but I don't remember what) nor 3.4, so I'm guessing it's
been fixed.


I know there was an issue and fix for  in the shell. I suspect 
Control+LeftArrow was looked at and fixed at the same time, if not before.



Fixed by whom, Terry Reedy & Co or rr?


Other people.

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Java

[Scott Dunning]

Hello everyone,

I hope this question does not piss anyone off seeing as how it has nothing to 
do with Python….But I was wondering if anyone knew of a good mailinglist for 
Java?  I love this mailinglist for Python but have been unsuccessfull in 
finding one for Java.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  

Thanks,

Scott
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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Martin S]

Is there a point to still use Usenet? Last time I checked noise overwhelmed 
signal by a factor of something close to 542.

(Just curiou) 

/martin s

On 18 Jul 2014, memilanuk  wrote:
>On 07/18/2014 02:45 PM, Sturla Molden wrote:
>> memilanuk  wrote:
>>
>>> Used leafnode way back when... correct me if I'm wrong, but if
>memory
>>> serves its a small news spool /server, not really a client/reader
>type
>>> application.  Used to be popular back before slrnpull came about.
>>
>> Leafnode is an NNTP proxy server. It allows you to filter messages on
>> headers, etc. Just run Leafnode and tell Thunderbird to use localhost
>as
>> NNTP server. Whomever you plonk with Leafnode's killfilter will never
>be
>> seen in Thunderbird.
>>
>
>Ah... I see.  Guess I never explored that facet of leafnode's
>functionality.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Monte

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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Ben Finney]

Martin S  writes:

> Is there a point to still use Usenet? Last time I checked noise
> overwhelmed signal by a factor of something close to 542.

My experience is quite the opposite; Usenet discussions are far easier
to filter for useful content than e.g. Google Groups. So that's a major
reason for continuing to discuss on Usenet.

-- 
 \ “Of all classes the rich are the most noticed and the least |
  `\  studied.” —John Kenneth Galbraith, _The Age of Uncertainty_, |
_o__) 1977 |
Ben Finney

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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Martin S :

> Is there a point to still use Usenet? Last time I checked noise
> overwhelmed signal by a factor of something close to 542.

Well, here you are at news:comp.lang.python>, in the middle of all
that noise.


Marko
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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Marko Rauhamaa  wrote:
> Martin S :
>
>> Is there a point to still use Usenet? Last time I checked noise
>> overwhelmed signal by a factor of something close to 542.
>
> Well, here you are at news:comp.lang.python>, in the middle of all
> that noise.

Or at python-list@python.org - a lot of the newsgroup spam simply
doesn't make it across the bridge.

ChrisA
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Re: OT: usenet reader software

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Chris Angelico :

> On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Marko Rauhamaa  wrote:
>> Martin S :
>>
>>> Is there a point to still use Usenet? Last time I checked noise
>>> overwhelmed signal by a factor of something close to 542.
>>
>> Well, here you are at news:comp.lang.python>, in the middle of
>> all that noise.
>
> Or at python-list@python.org - a lot of the newsgroup spam simply
> doesn't make it across the bridge.

Spam? What spam?

There's a lot of hot air but I have yet to encounter spam.


Marko
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