date:20120403

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber  wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Steve Howell
>  declaimed the following in
> gmane.comp.python.general:
>
>        REXX is inhibited by the architectures to which it has been ported
> -- limiting the ADDRESS targets to variations of Python's os.system() or
> popen() calls; even the subprocess module can't get beyond the all or
> nothing execution model.
>
>        Much different from the original IBM environment (and, biased, the
> Amiga implementation may have gone beyond the IBM one in capabilities)
> wherein compliant programs become the "command shell" for REXX command
> processing -- actual bidirectional interactive interprocess
> communication. Window's COM system offers some of that capability, but
> buried in a cryptic object programming system -- nothing like having a
> script sending the /same/ command that one would use in a text interface
> to the target program.

Some years ago, I wrote a MUD that used REXX as its scripting
language. (The server's still running, but not so much to be a MUD as
to be my administrative interface to that particular box. I'm like
that with MUDs.) I thought it was really cool to be able to simply put
a bare string and have that get sent to the player - for instance:

/* Command handler for some particular location in the MUD */
if arg(1)="foo" then do
"You begin to foo."
/* do some stuff */
"You finish fooing."
end

Having now built MUDs in Pike, I'm not so impressed with the syntax.
But hey, it's a completely different use of the ADDRESS command! :)
And of course, I can always use ADDRESS CMD "blah blah" to execute
commands.

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Steve Howell  wrote:
> On Apr 2, 2:50 pm, Chris Angelico  wrote:
>> Hmm... How do you pipe one command's output into another's input using
>> Python? It's not nearly as clean as it is in bash.
>
> For pipes, I'd still call out to bash.  I know that's cheating, but
> the idea is that Python can wrap all the good parts of bash while
> still allowing you to use Python's more modern syntax, standard
> library, etc.

So, it's not that Python is a superset of bash, but that Python+bash
is a superset of bash. Well, that is certainly understandable. And
needn't be too onerous syntactically either:

from os import system as x

x('do_stuff')

ChrisA
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Re: xlrd 0.7.4 released!

2012-04-03 Thread Lukas Graf

Hey Chris,

On Tuesday, April 3, 2012 9:04:43 AM UTC+2, Chris Withers wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm pleased to announce the release of xlrd 0.7.4.
>

There seems to have been a mistake during release of 0.7.4: version.txt 
referenced in setup.py:24 is missing (forgot MANIFEST?) and therefore the 
package can't be installed.

Getting distribution for 'xlrd'.
error: 
/var/folders/_l/m3y541vx5m1dzgjm6rjljf5wgn/T/easy_install-KeGyEg/xlrd-0.7.4/xlrd/version.txt:

No such file or directory
An error occured when trying to install xlrd 0.7.4. Look above this message 
for any errors that were output by easy_install.

Regards,

Lukas
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Re: [pyxl] xlrd 0.7.4 released!

2012-04-03 Thread Chris Withers


On 03/04/2012 08:04, Chris Withers wrote:

Hi All,

I'm pleased to announce the release of xlrd 0.7.4.


*sigh*

As pointed out, I stuffed up the release by not including a new file in 
the MANIFEST. My bad.


I've just release a 0.7.5 that fixes this.

cheers,

Chris

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Re: [pyxl] xlrd 0.7.4 released!

2012-04-03 Thread Lukas Graf



On Tuesday, April 3, 2012 9:34:27 AM UTC+2, Chris Withers wrote:
 

> As pointed out, I stuffed up the release by not including a new file in 
> the MANIFEST. My bad.
>
> I've just release a 0.7.5 that fixes this.
>
Works! Thanks for the quick reaction!

Regards,

Lukas
 
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Re: why can't I pickle a class containing this dispatch dictionary?

2012-04-03 Thread Peter Otten

jkn wrote:

> I'm clearly not understanding the 'can't pickle instancemethod
> objects' error; can someone help me to understand, 

I think classes implemented in C need some extra work to make them 
picklable, and that hasn't been done for instance methods.

> & maybe suggest a
> workaround, (apart from the obvious if ... elif...).

You can implement pickling yourself:

import copy_reg 
import types

def pickle_instancemethod(m):
return unpickle_instancemethod, (m.im_func.__name__, m.im_self, 
m.im_class) 
 
def unpickle_instancemethod(name, im_self, im_class):
im_func = getattr(im_class, name)
return im_func.__get__(im_self, im_class) 
 
copy_reg.pickle(types.MethodType, pickle_instancemethod) 

 
> I'm running Python 2.6 on an embedded system.
> 
> == testpickle.py ==
> import pickle
> 
> class Test(object):
> def __init__(self):
> self.myDict = {
> 1: self.tag1,
> 2: self.tag2
> }
> def dispatch(self, v):
> try:
> self.myDict[v]()
> except KeyError:
> print "No corresponding dictionary entry!"
> #
> def tag1(self):
> print "one"
> def tag2(self):
> print "two"
> 
> 
> t = Test()
> t.dispatch(1)
> t.dispatch(2)
> t.dispatch(0)
> 
> fd = open("pickle.out", "w")
> pickle.dump(t, fd)
> fd.close()
> # EOF
> 
> $ python testpickle.py
> one
> two
> No corresponding dictionary entry!

> TypeError: can't pickle instancemethod objects
> $


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Re: No os.copy()? Why not?

2012-04-03 Thread John Ladasky

I use subprocess.call() for quite a few other things.

I just figured that I should use the tidier modules whenever I can.
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Re: Is Programing Art or Science?

2012-04-03 Thread Tim Bradshaw


On 2012-04-03 00:52:35 +0100, JÃ¼rgen Exner said:


Oh, that's why it is tought in trade schools alongside butchery,
plumbing, masonry, and chimney sweeping and why you don't find any
programming classes at university.


So, you know, no one would do law or medicine at a university.  Oh, wait.

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Re: Is Programing Art or Science?

2012-04-03 Thread Devin Jeanpierre

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Chiron
<"chiron613.no.spam."@no.spam.please.gmail.com> wrote:
>> ãIs Programing Art or Scienceã
>
> Why is this question important?

That's the whole point of the article/email. Xah basically says "This
question is stupid and only stupid people care about it."

You probably should have read the email before replying to it.

-- Devin
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Re: Is Programing Art or Science?

2012-04-03 Thread Torsten Mueller

Xah Lee  wrote:

> So, is programing a art or science? is it art or science? I really
> need to know.

Sience? Almost never.

It's handcraft.

Seldom, in very rare cases, it's true art for a very limited audience,
mostly it's routine, and in many cases it's also idiocy.

T.M.
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Re: Is Programing Art or Science?

2012-04-03 Thread Alan Mackenzie

Hi, Xah,

In comp.emacs Xah Lee  wrote:

> For these computing jockeys, there remains the question of why Knuth
> named his books the ?Art? of Computer Programing, or why some
> computing luminaries litter the caution that programing is as much a
> art as science. What elite dimwits need to realize is that these
> authors are not defining or correcting, but breaking precepts among
> the automatons in programing industry.

He was using art in the sense of "the exercise of human skill (as
distinguished from nature)".  That's the second definition in my
dictionary.  When people talk about, for example, the art of painting
water colours, they mean the techniques of mixing paints, depicting
objects on paper, etc.  They are not referring to the artistic value of
the painting painted.

> yours humbly,
> 
> Xah

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

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Re: weird behaviour: pygame plays in shell but not in script

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Mik  wrote:
>
> I can't believe I am so dumb!
>
> after sound.play() the script was terminating
> I didn't notice that 'play()' actually returns...
>
> What a nice way to introduce myself to the group!!! :-)
>
> sorry for bothering you guys :-)

You've just proven one of the great benefits of asking a question: you
suddenly discover the answer for yourself. It's arguable whether it's
primarily caused by the action of coalescing your question into text,
or some outworking of Murphy's Law, but both are involved.

Welcome to the party. There's some trolls over there *gestures to the
corner* and some smart guys over there *gestures to the other corner*
and a few snakes and comedians around *gestures to the random pythons
and Pythons and Pythons and pythons* and don't forget the lurkers
lurking around. Enjoy yourself, learn something, educate someone!

Chris Angelico
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Re: Python Script Works Locally But Not Remotely with SSH

2012-04-03 Thread Rod Person

On Sun, 1 Apr 2012 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
Jedrzej Krzysztof Dec  wrote:
> > 
> > Why the does the window not open when the script is started
> > remotely?
> > 
> > Thanks.
> 
> Do You have a GUI over SSH? Something like ssh -X in Linux systems,
> or do You just have a terminal window? If You just have a terminal,
> You wont be able to run GUI apps.
> 


You need an X server on the XP machine. I've use Xming for this.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xming/?_test=b


-- 

Rod Person  http://www.rodperson.com  rodper...@rodperson.com

'Silence is a fence around wisdom'
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:40 AM, alex23  wrote:
> On Apr 3, 2:55 pm, Nathan Rice 
> wrote:
>> I don't care what people do related to legacy systems.
>
> And that's what earns you the label 'architecture astronaut'. Legacy
> systems are _part_ of the problem; it's very easy to  hold to a purist
> approach when you ignore the bulk of the domain that causes the
> issues. There's _never_ going to be an InfoTech3k where we just stop
> supporting older code.

There are people who are paid pretty well to support crappy old COBOL
apps, but I am not among them (nor are you, with very high
likelihood), so your "we" is misplaced.  For all intents and purposes
that software exists in an alternate reality.

Remember the tutorial on global vs local optimization I made
previously?  Let me distill it... If you are unwilling to endure pain
to move towards a better world you will always be trapped in a
sub-optimal situation.

>> I do care about programmers that are too lazy to
>> learn, and would be happy to ignore the fact that programming is hard
>> for most people to learn, so they can continue not learning.  Those
>> programmers are scumbags.
>
> Wait, what?
>
> Programmers are both "too lazy to learn" and yet somehow happy that
> the skills they've acquired are "too hard for most people to learn"?
> So how did they learn them?
>
> And they're also somehow "lazy" because they have to learn multiple
> languages to be effective,  rather than one mythical ur-language?
>
> In my 20 years as a software developer, I have _never_ encountered
> anyone trying to deliberately expand the knowledge gap. This isn't a
> priesthood.

Did you miss the part where I said that most people who learn to
program are fascinated by computers and highly motivated to do so?
I've never met a BROgrammer, those people go into sales.  It isn't
because there aren't smart BROmosapiens (sadly, there are), they just
couldn't give two shits about computers so programming seems like a
colossal waste of time to them.

It isn't about people scheming to "dis-empower then plebs" rather it
is about people who don't want to move outside their comfort zone.
You can talk about people learning multiple languages all you want,
but for the most part they will be 10 descendants of ALGOL, with minor
variations.  Very few people are willing to tackle something like
Haskell or ML if they weren't taught functional programming in
university, though there are a few that view it as an endurance trial
or mountain to climb.  Those people get a pass on most of what I've
said thus far.

>> Just don't let me hear you complaining because some syntax is not "C
>> like" enough for you.  Whenever I hear that I want to strangle the
>> self-serving 'tard that wrote it.  When I see people defending "C
>> like" syntax as optimal or somehow much more expressive, that makes me
>> doubly irritated.  These are the people who are selfishly defending
>> the status quo because they're invested.
>
> Syntax is never the issue, it's the deeper semantics. Is the scoping
> of one C-like language the same as C? How does it differ? Why does it
> differ? Is the difference a fundamental implementation issue that you
> really need to know before you actually grok the language? Are
> functions first-class objects? Are they actual objects or some kind of
> magical stub? Can you extend those objects with properties? etc etc

Syntax and semantics are both a big mess right now.  That is why I
always address them both.

> Every language tackles _so many_ things differently. It's not lazy to
> say that you prefer something to resemble/be based on a language you
> have experience with, that's human nature. If you're insistent that
> your non-typical syntax is so much better, the onus is on you to prove
> it, not to insist that the lack of uptake is 'laziness'.

The winds of change generally blow for programming when generations of
older programmers leave the workforce.  Alan Kay was a smart man,
viewing programming as an educational tool and designing for youth is
absolutely the right way to do things.  If you try to retrain older
programmers, you are basically telling them they have to change
decades of learning for a moderate (but not huge) productivity
increase, so that programming is accessible to a much wider group of
people.  Much like with the terminal to GUI transition, you will have
people attacking declarative natural language programming as a stupid
practice for noobs, and the end of computing (even though it will
allow people with much less experience to be more productive than
them).

> And one again: code is _communication_. Not having to understand new
> optimal patterns for every single language is a Good Thing.

Code is a horrible medium for communication.  If it weren't, I
wouldn't be trolling this thread.

>> Don't try to delude people that our modern
>> ALGOL derivatives are the best possible way to model knowledge
>> (including process knowledge) to a computer, because that is a lie.
>
> Um,

Re: Is Programing Art or Science?

2012-04-03 Thread Alec Taylor

Programming is neither Art nor Science

It's practically maths

[pun intended]
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Re: weird behaviour: pygame plays in shell but not in script

2012-04-03 Thread Jean-Michel Pichavant


Mik wrote:

Oh thanks alex!
that's kind!

PS: It looks like a party indeed: plenty of interesting
discussions :-)

On Mar 30, 4:33 am, alex23  wrote:
  

On Mar 29, 10:41 pm, Mik  wrote:



What a nice way to introduce myself to the group!!! :-)
  

Hey, don't beat yourself up, you:

 - summarised the problem in the subject heading
 - included actual code showing the problem
 - reported back on the problem you found

That puts you ahead of most new posters.



sorry for bothering you guys :-)
  

No bother at all, welcome to the party :)



  

Welcome Mik !

JM

PS : please don't top post in this list
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Re: why can't I pickle a class containing this dispatch dictionary?

2012-04-03 Thread jkn

Hi Peter

On Apr 3, 8:54 am, Peter Otten <__pete...@web.de> wrote:
> jkn wrote:
> >     I'm clearly not understanding the 'can't pickle instancemethod
> > objects' error; can someone help me to understand,
>
> I think classes implemented in C need some extra work to make them
> picklable, and that hasn't been done for instance methods.

by 'classes implemented in C', doyou mean new-style classes', or what,
please?


>
> > & maybe suggest a
> > workaround, (apart from the obvious if ... elif...).
>
> You can implement pickling yourself:
>
> [...]

Hmm - interesting, thanks. I'm more trying to understand the issue at
the moment, but it's always nice to learn...

Thanks
J^n
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Re: Is Programing Art or Science?

2012-04-03 Thread Peter Davis


On 3/30/2012 4:27 AM, Xah Lee wrote:

Is Programing Art or Science?



Programming itself is a bit like being a natural language translator for 
an autistic person. You have to understand the "message" to be 
communicated, and then interpret it *very* literally for the listener.


Note that programming is just one of a set of activities and skills that 
are part of software engineering.  Others include UI design (which 
combines visual design, psychology, etc.), software architecture (which 
is like ... well, architecture) and various other skills.


Collectively, "engineering" is the best catch-all description.  Is 
building a bridge art or science?  A little of both, and some other 
things as well.


-pd

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Re: Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Mar 31)

2012-04-03 Thread Colin J. Williams

On 31/03/2012 11:38 AM, Cameron Laird wrote:

I pine for the fjords.

And it's time to bring "Python-URL!" to a close. "Python-URL!", which
Jean-Claude Wippler and I appear to have launched in 1998, has reached
the end of its utility. We still have many loyal and enthusiastic
readers--one subscription request arrived within the last day, in
fact--and certainly much writing turns up every week that *deserves*
the spotlight "Python-URL!" has shone in the past.

However, the Python world has changed a great deal over the last
fourteen years. There are many, MANY other ways for those with an
interest in Python to nourish themselves, and Python itself has grown
and "normalized" so much that it no longer fits particularly well in
the "Python-URL!" format. Enjoy "Mouse vs. Python"http://www.blog.pythonlibrary.org/>, the Python areas of DZone,
Reddit, developerWorks, stackoverflow, and so on.

For your reference, I append below the most-recent-but-not-
particularly-
current version of "Python-URL!"'s coda of related readings.

That is all.

Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away
in
these pages:

Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
center of Pythonia
http://www.python.org
Notice especially the master FAQ
http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

Just beginning with Python? This page is a great place to start:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Programmers

Planet Python: you want to visit there:
http://planet.python.org
But don't confuse it with Planet SciPy:
http://planet.scipy.org
And don't confuse *that* with SciPyTip, a high-quality daily (!)
tip
for the numerically-inclined:
http://twitter.com/SciPyTip

Python Insider is the official blog of the Python core development
team:
http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2011/03/python-dev-launches-python-insider
-blog.html

The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
Consortium as an independent nexus of activity. It has official
responsibility for Python's development and maintenance.
http://www.python.org/psf/
Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
http://www.python.org/psf/donations/
Keep up with the PSF at "Python Software Foundation News":
http://pyfound.blogspot.com

The Python Papers aims to publish "the efforts of Python
enthusiasts":
http://pythonpapers.org/

Doug Hellman's "Module of the week" is essential reading:
http://www.doughellmann.com/PyMOTW/

comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software. Be
sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python.announce/topics

Python411 indexes "podcasts ... to help people learn Python ..."
Updates appear more-than-weekly:
http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.html

The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
http://www.python.org/pypi/

Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
mailing lists
http://www.python.org/sigs/

Python Success Stories--from air-traffic control to on-line
match-making--can inspire you or decision-makers to whom you're
subject with a vision of what the language makes practical.
http://www.pythonology.com/success

The Summary of Python Tracker Issues is an automatically generated
report summarizing new bugs, closed ones, and patch submissions.
http://search.gmane.org/?author=status%40bugs.python.org&group=gmane.c
omp.python.devel&sort=date

nullege is an interesting search Web application, with the
intelligence
to distinguish between Python code and comments. It provides what
appear to be relevant results, and demands neither Java nor CSS be
enabled:
http://www.nullege.com

Although unmaintained since 2002, the Cetus collection of Python
hyperlinks retains a few gems.
http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
interesting recipes:
http://code.activestate.com/recipes/langs/python/

Many Python conferences around the world are in preparation.
Watch this space for links to them.

Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available, see:
http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
For more, see:
http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
SourceForge reincarnation.
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0042/

del.icio.us presents an intriguing approach to reference
commentary.
It already aggregates quite a bit of Python intelligence.
http://

Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

2012-04-03 Thread rusi

On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice 
wrote:
>
> Don't think "underlying", instead think "canonical".
>
> Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
> to see.  How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure?  How does a
> chef describe a recipe?  How does a carpenter describe the process of
> building cabinets?  Aside from specific words, they all use natural
> language, and it works just fine.

A carpenter describes his carpentry-process in English
A CSist describes his programming-process in English (at least all my
CS books are in English)

A carpenter uses his tools -- screwdriver, saw, planer --to do
carpentry
A programmer uses his tools to to programming -- one of which is
called 'programming language'

Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
to tighten screws
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

2012-04-03 Thread Mark Lawrence


On 03/04/2012 14:51, rusi wrote:

On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice
wrote:


Don't think "underlying", instead think "canonical".

Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see.  How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure?  How does a
chef describe a recipe?  How does a carpenter describe the process of
building cabinets?  Aside from specific words, they all use natural
language, and it works just fine.


A carpenter describes his carpentry-process in English
A CSist describes his programming-process in English (at least all my
CS books are in English)

A carpenter uses his tools -- screwdriver, saw, planer --to do
carpentry
A programmer uses his tools to to programming -- one of which is
called 'programming language'

Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
to tighten screws


The latter is extremely difficult if you bite your toenails :)

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

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Re: why can't I pickle a class containing this dispatch dictionary?

2012-04-03 Thread 88888 Dihedral

Peter Otten於 2012年4月3日星期二UTC+8下午3時54分50秒寫道：
> jkn wrote:
> 
> > I'm clearly not understanding the 'can't pickle instancemethod
> > objects' error; can someone help me to understand, 
> 
> I think classes implemented in C need some extra work to make them 
> picklable, and that hasn't been done for instance methods.
> 
> > & maybe suggest a
> > workaround, (apart from the obvious if ... elif...).
> 
> You can implement pickling yourself:
> 
> import copy_reg 
> import types
> 
> def pickle_instancemethod(m):
> return unpickle_instancemethod, (m.im_func.__name__, m.im_self, 
> m.im_class) 
>  
> def unpickle_instancemethod(name, im_self, im_class):
> im_func = getattr(im_class, name)
> return im_func.__get__(im_self, im_class) 
>  
> copy_reg.pickle(types.MethodType, pickle_instancemethod) 
> 
>  
> > I'm running Python 2.6 on an embedded system.
> > 
> > == testpickle.py ==
> > import pickle
> > 
> > class Test(object):
> > def __init__(self):
> > self.myDict = {
> > 1: self.tag1,
> > 2: self.tag2
> > }
> > def dispatch(self, v):
> > try:
> > self.myDict[v]()
> > except KeyError:
> > print "No corresponding dictionary entry!"
> > #
> > def tag1(self):
> > print "one"
> > def tag2(self):
> > print "two"
> > 
> > 
> > t = Test()
> > t.dispatch(1)
> > t.dispatch(2)
> > t.dispatch(0)
> > 
> > fd = open("pickle.out", "w")
> > pickle.dump(t, fd)
> > fd.close()
> > # EOF
> > 
> > $ python testpickle.py
> > one
> > two
> > No corresponding dictionary entry!
> 
> > TypeError: can't pickle instancemethod objects
> > $

Save your python files as a package in .pyd or .py  and use exec to get what 
you want. Of course you can use the data compression package to perform 
serialization operations, but that will increase start up time in loading your 
objects.
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> On 03/04/2012 14:51, rusi wrote:
>> Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
>> to tighten screws
>
>
> The latter is extremely difficult if you bite your toenails :)

I agree, thumbnails are far better suited. Mine are often pushed into
that service. But to extend the analogy: Using a thumbnail to tighten
a screw is like directly patching a binary to fix a bug. It works, but
it's not exactly a practical way to build a system.

ChrisA
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Re: why can't I pickle a class containing this dispatch dictionary?

2012-04-03 Thread Peter Otten

jkn wrote:

> Hi Peter
> 
> On Apr 3, 8:54 am, Peter Otten <__pete...@web.de> wrote:
>> jkn wrote:
>> > I'm clearly not understanding the 'can't pickle instancemethod
>> > objects' error; can someone help me to understand,
>>
>> I think classes implemented in C need some extra work to make them
>> picklable, and that hasn't been done for instance methods.
> 
> by 'classes implemented in C', doyou mean new-style classes', or what,
> please?

Given 

>>> class A(object):
... def __init__(self, name):
... self.name = name
... def hello(self):
... print "Hello,", self.name
... 
>>> a = A("Peter")
>>> hello = a.hello
>>> hello()
Hello, Peter

the object bound to the name 'hello' is an instance of the 'instancemethod' 
type:

>>> type(hello)


That type is implemented in C, see

http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/9599f091faa6/Objects/classobject.c

and doesn't support the pickle protocol while a similar class, 
functools.partial which is also written in C, see

http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/9599f091faa6/Modules/_functoolsmodule.c

does:

>>> from functools import partial
>>> import pickle
>>> def hello(obj):
... print "Hi,", obj.name
... 
>>> hello2 = partial(hello, a)
>>> hello2()
Hi, Peter
>>> s = pickle.dumps(hello2)
>>> pickle.loads(s)()
Hi, Peter


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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

2012-04-03 Thread Grant Edwards

On 2012-04-03, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Mark Lawrence  
> wrote:
>> On 03/04/2012 14:51, rusi wrote:
>>> Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
>>> to tighten screws
>>
>>
>> The latter is extremely difficult if you bite your toenails :)
>
> I agree, thumbnails are far better suited. Mine are often pushed into
> that service. But to extend the analogy: Using a thumbnail to tighten
> a screw is like directly patching a binary to fix a bug. It works, but
> it's not exactly a practical way to build a system.

Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS "patch" utility?  Apparently, DEC
thought it was a practical way to fix things.  It had a built-in
assembler and let you "insert" new code into a function by
auto-allocating a location for the new code an hooking it into the
indicated spot with jump instructions.

The mind wobbled.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! I'm a fuschia bowling
  at   ball somewhere in Brittany
  gmail.com
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Python and Bloomberg

2012-04-03 Thread SMac2347

Hello, I was just wondering if anyone had experience using Python to
interact with Bloomberg. Ideally, I'd look to use Python to feed
Bloomberg's OVML calculator with a list of inputs, and then use an
additional program to grab the results of the calculator for each
calculation, and pull them into another document, ideally an excel
spreadsheet or alternatively a delimited .txt file.

Any thoughts or ideas are very much appreciated. Thanks!
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Is there a better way to do this snippet?

2012-04-03 Thread python

I played around with a few things and this works but was wondering if
there was a better way to do this.
My first thought was list comprehension but could not get a figure out
the syntax.

tag23gr is a list of lists each with two items.
g23tag is an empty dictionary when I run the for loop below.
When is is complete each key is a graphic name who's values are a list
of tags.

for item in tag23gr:
... value, key = tuple(item)
... if(g23tag.get(key)):
... g23tag[key].append(value)
... else:
... g23tag[key] = [value]
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Grant Edwards  wrote:
> Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS "patch" utility?  Apparently, DEC
> thought it was a practical way to fix things.  It had a built-in
> assembler and let you "insert" new code into a function by
> auto-allocating a location for the new code an hooking it into the
> indicated spot with jump instructions.
>
> The mind wobbled.

Not specifically, but I _have_ heard of various systems whose source
code and binary were multiple years divergent. It's actually not a
difficult trap to fall into, especially once you start patching
running systems. I've had quite a few computers that have been unable
to reboot without assistance, because they go for months or years
without ever having to go through that initial program load. (I've had
_programs_ that were unable to load, for the same reason.) But
auto-allocating a new spot for your expanded function? That's just...
awesome. My mind is, indeed, wobbling.

ChrisA
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Nathan Rice
 wrote:
> Did you miss the part where I said that most people who learn to
> program are fascinated by computers and highly motivated to do so?
> I've never met a BROgrammer, those people go into sales.  It isn't
> because there aren't smart BROmosapiens (sadly, there are), they just
> couldn't give two shits about computers so programming seems like a
> colossal waste of time to them.

I have never met the brogrammer stereotype.  I have also never met the
non-brogrammer stereotype of nerdy solitude (well, maybe once).
That's all these things are -- stereotypes.  Real programmers are much
more complex.

> Computers require you to state the exact words you're searching for as
> well.  Try looking again, and this time allow for sub-categories and
> synonyms, along with some variation in word order.

Lazy troll.  You made the claim.  The onus is on you to provide the evidence.
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Re: Is there a better way to do this snippet?

2012-04-03 Thread Alain Ketterlin

python  writes:

> tag23gr is a list of lists each with two items.
> g23tag is an empty dictionary when I run the for loop below.
> When is is complete each key is a graphic name who's values are a list
> of tags.
>
> for item in tag23gr:
> ...   value, key = tuple(item)
> ...   if(g23tag.get(key)):
> ...   g23tag[key].append(value)
> ...   else:
> ...   g23tag[key] = [value]

for item in tag23gr:
g23tag.setdefault(item[0],[]).append(item[1])

-- Alain.
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:01 AM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
> Real programmers are much more complex.

Are you saying that some part of all of us is imaginary??

ChrisA
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Re: Is there a better way to do this snippet?

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:36 AM, python  wrote:
> for item in tag23gr:
> ...     value, key = tuple(item)
> ...     if(g23tag.get(key)):
> ...             g23tag[key].append(value)
> ...     else:
> ...             g23tag[key] = [value]

Simple enhancement: Use setdefault. Instead of the if, just use:

g23tag.setdefault(key,[]).append(value)

That'll cover both cases in one.

You can leave off the explicit tuple construction; if item is a
two-element list, you can unpack it directly. You can also embed that
straight into your for loop:

for value,key in tag23gr:

Do both and you cut your loop down to two lines. Cool! :)

Chris Angelico
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

2012-04-03 Thread Mark Lawrence


On 03/04/2012 15:56, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Grant Edwards  wrote:

Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS "patch" utility?  Apparently, DEC
thought it was a practical way to fix things.  It had a built-in
assembler and let you "insert" new code into a function by
auto-allocating a location for the new code an hooking it into the
indicated spot with jump instructions.

The mind wobbled.


Not specifically, but I _have_ heard of various systems whose source
code and binary were multiple years divergent. It's actually not a
difficult trap to fall into, especially once you start patching
running systems. I've had quite a few computers that have been unable
to reboot without assistance, because they go for months or years
without ever having to go through that initial program load. (I've had
_programs_ that were unable to load, for the same reason.) But
auto-allocating a new spot for your expanded function? That's just...
awesome. My mind is, indeed, wobbling.

ChrisA


Around 1990 I worked on Telematics kit.  The patches on all their 
software were implemented via assembler once the original binary had 
been loaded into memory.  They even came up with a system that let you 
select which patches you wanted and which you didn't, as e.g. some 
patches were customer specific.


--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

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Re: Is there a better way to do this snippet?

2012-04-03 Thread Peter Otten

python wrote:

> I played around with a few things and this works but was wondering if
> there was a better way to do this.
> My first thought was list comprehension but could not get a figure out
> the syntax.
> 
> tag23gr is a list of lists each with two items.
> g23tag is an empty dictionary when I run the for loop below.
> When is is complete each key is a graphic name who's values are a list
> of tags.
> 
> for item in tag23gr:
> ...   value, key = tuple(item)
> ...   if(g23tag.get(key)):

That should be

 if key in g23tag:

Your version means trouble for keys that evaluate to False in a boolean 
context, e. g. 0, False, None, "", (),...

> ...   g23tag[key].append(value)
> ...   else:
> ...   g23tag[key] = [value]

from collections import defaultdict
g23tag = defaultdict(list)

for value, key in tag23gr:
g23tag[key].append(value)


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Re: Is Programing Art or Science?

2012-04-03 Thread Rainer Weikusat

Xah Lee  writes:

[...]

> For example, “Is mathematics science or art?”, is the same type of
> question that has been broached by dabblers now and then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts

HTH.
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Re: Is there a better way to do this snippet?

2012-04-03 Thread nn

On Apr 3, 11:02 am, Alain Ketterlin 
wrote:
> python  writes:
> > tag23gr is a list of lists each with two items.
> > g23tag is an empty dictionary when I run the for loop below.
> > When is is complete each key is a graphic name who's values are a list
> > of tags.
>
> > for item in tag23gr:
> > ...        value, key = tuple(item)
> > ...        if(g23tag.get(key)):
> > ...                g23tag[key].append(value)
> > ...        else:
> > ...                g23tag[key] = [value]
>
> for item in tag23gr:
>     g23tag.setdefault(item[0],[]).append(item[1])
>
> -- Alain.

Or alternatively:

from collections import defaultdict
g23tag = defaultdict(list)
for item in tag23gr:
g23tag[item[0]].append(item[1])
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, rusi  wrote:
> On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice 
> wrote:
>>
>> Don't think "underlying", instead think "canonical".
>>
>> Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
>> to see.  How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure?  How does a
>> chef describe a recipe?  How does a carpenter describe the process of
>> building cabinets?  Aside from specific words, they all use natural
>> language, and it works just fine.
>
> A carpenter describes his carpentry-process in English
> A CSist describes his programming-process in English (at least all my
> CS books are in English)
>
> A carpenter uses his tools -- screwdriver, saw, planer --to do
> carpentry
> A programmer uses his tools to to programming -- one of which is
> called 'programming language'
>
> Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
> to tighten screws

I would argue that the computer is the tool, not the language.
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

2012-04-03 Thread Dave Angel

On 04/03/2012 11:16 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 03/04/2012 15:56, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Grant
>> Edwards  wrote:
>>> Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS "patch" utility?  Apparently, DEC
>>> thought it was a practical way to fix things.  It had a built-in
>>> assembler and let you "insert" new code into a function by
>>> auto-allocating a location for the new code an hooking it into the
>>> indicated spot with jump instructions.
>>>
>>> The mind wobbled.
>>
>> Not specifically, but I _have_ heard of various systems whose source
>> code and binary were multiple years divergent. It's actually not a
>> difficult trap to fall into, especially once you start patching
>> running systems. I've had quite a few computers that have been unable
>> to reboot without assistance, because they go for months or years
>> without ever having to go through that initial program load. (I've had
>> _programs_ that were unable to load, for the same reason.) But
>> auto-allocating a new spot for your expanded function? That's just...
>> awesome. My mind is, indeed, wobbling.
>>
>> ChrisA
>
> Around 1990 I worked on Telematics kit.  The patches on all their
> software were implemented via assembler once the original binary had
> been loaded into memory.  They even came up with a system that let you
> select which patches you wanted and which you didn't, as e.g. some
> patches were customer specific.
>

And I worked on a system where the microcode was in ROM, and there was a
"patch board" consisting of lots of diodes and some EPROMs.  The diodes
were soldered into place to specfy the instruction(s) to be patched, and
the actual patches were in the EPROMs, which were reusable.  The diodes
were the only thing fast enough to "patch" the ROM, by responding more
quickly than the ROM.  This was back when issuing a new ROM was a very
expensive proposition;  there were masking charges, so you couldn't
reasonably do low quantities.



-- 

DaveA

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Re: No os.copy()? Why not?

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Thomas Rachel

wrote:
> Am 02.04.2012 23:11 schrieb HoneyMonster:
>
>
>> One way:
>> import os
>>
>> os.system ("cp src sink")
>
>
> Yes. The worst way you could imagine.
>
> Why not the much much better
>
> from subprocess
> subprocess.call(['cp', 'src', 'sink'])


In any case, either of these approaches will only work in UNIX,
whereas shutil is cross-platform.
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Re: Is there a better way to do this snippet?

2012-04-03 Thread Alain Ketterlin

nn  writes:

>> > for item in tag23gr:
>> > ...        value, key = tuple(item)
>> > ...        if(g23tag.get(key)):
>> > ...                g23tag[key].append(value)
>> > ...        else:
>> > ...                g23tag[key] = [value]
>>
>> for item in tag23gr:
>>     g23tag.setdefault(item[0],[]).append(item[1])

> Or alternatively:
>
> from collections import defaultdict
> g23tag = defaultdict(list)
> for item in tag23gr:
> g23tag[item[0]].append(item[1])

Very handy in that case, but in general I dislike the idea of silently
inserting a default value when the access is a read, e.g., in
x=g23tag[wrung]. Explicit is better than implicit, as they say. YMMV.

-- Alain.
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Re: Best way to structure data for efficient searching

2012-04-03 Thread John Nagle


On 3/28/2012 11:39 AM, larry.mart...@gmail.com wrote:

I have the following use case:

I have a set of data that is contains 3 fields, K1, K2 and a
timestamp. There are duplicates in the data set, and they all have to
processed.

Then I have another set of data with 4 fields: K3, K4, K5, and a
timestamp. There are also duplicates in that data set, and they also
all have to be processed.

I need to find all the items in the second data set where K1==K3 and
K2==K4 and the 2 timestamps are within 20 seconds of each other.

I have this working, but the way I did it seems very inefficient - I
simply put the data in 2 arrays (as tuples) and then walked through
the entire second data set once for each item in the first data set,
looking for matches.

Is there a better, more efficient way I could have done this?


   How big are the data sets?  Millions of entries?  Billions?
Trillions?  Will all the data fit in memory, or will this need
files or a database.

   In-memory, it's not hard.  First, decide which data set is smaller.
That one gets a dictionary keyed by K1 or K3, with each entry being
a list of tuples.  Then go through the other data set linearly.

   You can also sort one database by K1, the other by K3, and
match.  Then take the matches, sort by K2 and K4, and match again.
Sort the remaining matches by timestamp and pull the ones within
the threshold.

   Or you can load all the data into a database with a query
optimizer, like MySQL, and let it figure out, based on the
index sizes, how to do the join.

   All of these approaches are roughly O(N log N), which
beats the O(N^2) approach you have now.

John Nagle
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Re: Is Programing Art or Science?

2012-04-03 Thread ccc31807

On Apr 2, 5:48Â pm, "Pascal J. Bourguignon"
> This is a narrow-minded definition of programming.

Well, that's the point.

If we make a list and include things like:
computer science
software engineering
computer engineering
discrete math
logic
formal methods
web development
computer graphics
information technology
information management
data processing
database management
database administration
network administration
artificial intelligence
... and so on and so forth ...

Some of these involve real art. Some of these involve real science.
Even engineering can be considered as science, in a way, and perhaps
art in a way. All these include programming! HOWEVER, 'programming'
seen as 'talking to a computer' is neither an art nor a science, but
simply a learned skill, like plumbing or cabinet making, or even
medicine or law.

I was a lawyer for 14 years, so I know what I'm talking about: the
practice of law in the ordinary sense is simply that, the practice of
law, and as such it's not an art nor a science, but simply a trade,
albeit a highly skilled and abstract trade. And yes, lawyers can be
artists and scientists, but neither one of these is basic to the
practice of law.

I'm not saying that artists and scientists can't be programmers. Many
of them are. What I'm saying is that you can program a computer (i.e.,
practice programming) without being either an artist or a scientist.

CC.
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Nathan Rice
>  wrote:
>> Did you miss the part where I said that most people who learn to
>> program are fascinated by computers and highly motivated to do so?
>> I've never met a BROgrammer, those people go into sales.  It isn't
>> because there aren't smart BROmosapiens (sadly, there are), they just
>> couldn't give two shits about computers so programming seems like a
>> colossal waste of time to them.
>
> I have never met the brogrammer stereotype.  I have also never met the
> non-brogrammer stereotype of nerdy solitude (well, maybe once).
> That's all these things are -- stereotypes.  Real programmers are much
> more complex.

I have never met a programmer that was not completely into computers.
That leaves a lot unspecified though.

>> Computers require you to state the exact words you're searching for as
>> well.  Try looking again, and this time allow for sub-categories and
>> synonyms, along with some variation in word order.
>
> Lazy troll.  You made the claim.  The onus is on you to provide the evidence.

I reserve the right to be lazy :)

As part of my troll-outreach effort, I will indulge here.  I was
specifically thinking about some earlier claims that programming
languages as they currently exist are somehow inherently superior to a
formalized natural language in expressive power.

I think part of this comes from the misconception that terse is better
(e.g. Paul Graham's thoughts on car/cdr), which doesn't take into
account that your brain compresses frequently occurring English words
VERY efficiently, so they actually take up less cognitive bandwidth
than a much shorter non-word.  This behavior extends to the phrase
level as well; longer phrases that are meaningful in their own right
take up less bandwidth than short nonsensical word combinations.

On the semantic side, most people already understand branched
processes and procedures with conditional actions pretty well.  People
"program" other people to perform tasks constantly, and have been
doing so for the entirety of our existence.  The problem occurs when
programming language specific semantic artifacts must be considered.
These artifacts are for the most part somewhat arbitrary, or you would
see them frequently in other areas, and they wouldn't confuse people
so much.  I think the majority of these relate to how the computer
operates internally - this is the stuff that really turns most people
off to programming.

The crux of my view is that programming languages exist in part
because computers in general are not smart enough to converse with
humans on their own level, so we have to talk to them like autistic 5
year-olds.  That was fine when we didn't have any other options, but
all the pieces exist now to let computers talk to us very close to our
own level, and represent information at the same way we do.  Projects
like IBM's Watson, Siri, Wolfram Alpha and Cyc demonstrate pretty
clearly to me that we are capable of taking the next step, and the
resurgence of the technology sector along with the shortage of
qualified developers indicates to me that we need to move now.
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

2012-04-03 Thread rusi

On Apr 3, 9:15 pm, Nathan Rice 
wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, rusi  wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice 
> > wrote:
>
> >> Don't think "underlying", instead think "canonical".
>
> >> Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
> >> to see.  How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure?  How does a
> >> chef describe a recipe?  How does a carpenter describe the process of
> >> building cabinets?  Aside from specific words, they all use natural
> >> language, and it works just fine.
>
> > A carpenter describes his carpentry-process in English
> > A CSist describes his programming-process in English (at least all my
> > CS books are in English)
>
> > A carpenter uses his tools -- screwdriver, saw, planer --to do
> > carpentry
> > A programmer uses his tools to to programming -- one of which is
> > called 'programming language'
>
> > Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
> > to tighten screws
>
> I would argue that the computer is the tool, not the language.

"Computer science is as much about computers as astronomy is about
telescopes" -- E W Dijkstra

Here are some other attempted corrections of the misnomer "computer
science":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science#Name_of_the_field
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

2012-04-03 Thread Neil Cerutti

On 2012-04-03, Dave Angel  wrote:
> And I worked on a system where the microcode was in ROM, and
> there was a "patch board" consisting of lots of diodes and some
> EPROMs.  The diodes were soldered into place to specfy the
> instruction(s) to be patched, and the actual patches were in
> the EPROMs, which were reusable.  The diodes were the only
> thing fast enough to "patch" the ROM, by responding more
> quickly than the ROM.  This was back when issuing a new ROM was
> a very expensive proposition;  there were masking charges, so
> you couldn't reasonably do low quantities.

I worked on a system where the main interface to the system was
poking and peeking numbers at memory addresses.

-- 
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

2012-04-03 Thread rusi

All this futuristic grandiloquence:

On Apr 3, 10:17 pm, Nathan Rice 
wrote:
> The crux of my view is that programming languages exist in part
> because computers in general are not smart enough to converse with
> humans on their own level, so we have to talk to them like autistic 5
> year-olds.  That was fine when we didn't have any other options, but
> all the pieces exist now to let computers talk to us very close to our
> own level, and represent information at the same way we do.  Projects
> like IBM's Watson, Siri, Wolfram Alpha and Cyc demonstrate pretty
> clearly to me that we are capable of taking the next step, and the
> resurgence of the technology sector along with the shortage of
> qualified developers indicates to me that we need to move now.

needs to be juxtaposed with this antiquated view

> I would argue that the computer is the tool, not the language.


... a view that could not be held by an educated person after the
1960s -- ie when it became amply clear to all that the essential and
hard issues in CS are about software and not hardware
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Re: Is Programing Art or Science?

2012-04-03 Thread Pascal J. Bourguignon

ccc31807  writes:

> On Apr 2, 5:48Â pm, "Pascal J. Bourguignon"
>> This is a narrow-minded definition of programming.
>
> Well, that's the point.
>
> If we make a list and include things like:
> computer science
> software engineering
> computer engineering
> discrete math
> logic
> formal methods
> web development
> computer graphics
> information technology
> information management
> data processing
> database management
> database administration
> network administration
> artificial intelligence
> ... and so on and so forth ...
>
> Some of these involve real art. Some of these involve real science.
> Even engineering can be considered as science, in a way, and perhaps
> art in a way. All these include programming! HOWEVER, 'programming'
> seen as 'talking to a computer' is neither an art nor a science, but
> simply a learned skill, like plumbing or cabinet making, or even
> medicine or law.
>
> I was a lawyer for 14 years, so I know what I'm talking about: the
> practice of law in the ordinary sense is simply that, the practice of
> law, and as such it's not an art nor a science, but simply a trade,
> albeit a highly skilled and abstract trade. And yes, lawyers can be
> artists and scientists, but neither one of these is basic to the
> practice of law.
>
> I'm not saying that artists and scientists can't be programmers. Many
> of them are. What I'm saying is that you can program a computer (i.e.,
> practice programming) without being either an artist or a scientist.

Well, of course.  Those words designate different categories that are
not exclusive.  So it's meaningless to say that programming is or is not
art or science.

Art is something that comes from a quality of the would-be artist.

Science is something that comes from a methodology applied by the
would-be scientist.

Program is something that comes from the work applied by the would-be
programmer.

You can be both a programmer and artist and produce a program
arstistically (like a torero), or an artistic program (like a painter).

You can be both a programmer and scientist, and produce a program
scientifically (like a mathematician), or a science program (like a
physicist). 

You can be both a scientist and artist and produce science artistically,
or art scientifically.

You can be the three, producing programs artistically and
scientifically, or producing artisctic programs scientifically, or
producing scientific programs artistically, etc.

When you produce programs scientifically and artistically you're a 
hacker.

It could be nice to produce scientific programs scientifically, and even
better if your scientific programs are also artistic (so that you can
show the science in an interesting way to the public).
http://www.ted.com/talks/joann_kuchera_morin_tours_the_allosphere.html

You can also produce art programmatically.  For that you need to be both
an artist or a programmer. http://animusic.com/ Or you may try to split
the qualities among a team like at Pixar producing artistic movies
programmatically and scientifically like
http://www.pixar.com/featurefilms/index.html
http://graphics.pixar.com/library/UntanglingCloth/paper.pdf

And the best is to produce scientific programs that are artistic,
scientifically and artistically.  
Then you're an scientifico-artistico-hacker.

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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

>> > A carpenter uses his tools -- screwdriver, saw, planer --to do
>> > carpentry
>> > A programmer uses his tools to to programming -- one of which is
>> > called 'programming language'
>>
>> > Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
>> > to tighten screws
>>
>> I would argue that the computer is the tool, not the language.
>
> "Computer science is as much about computers as astronomy is about
> telescopes" -- E W Dijkstra
>
> Here are some other attempted corrections of the misnomer "computer
> science":
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science#Name_of_the_field

I view "computer science" as applied mathematics, when it deserves
that moniker.  When it doesn't, it is merely engineering.

Ironically, telescopes are a tool that astronomers use to view the stars.


On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:25 PM, rusi  wrote:
> All this futuristic grandiloquence:
>
> On Apr 3, 10:17 pm, Nathan Rice 
> wrote:
>> The crux of my view is that programming languages exist in part
>> because computers in general are not smart enough to converse with
>> humans on their own level, so we have to talk to them like autistic 5
>> year-olds.  That was fine when we didn't have any other options, but
>> all the pieces exist now to let computers talk to us very close to our
>> own level, and represent information at the same way we do.  Projects
>> like IBM's Watson, Siri, Wolfram Alpha and Cyc demonstrate pretty
>> clearly to me that we are capable of taking the next step, and the
>> resurgence of the technology sector along with the shortage of
>> qualified developers indicates to me that we need to move now.
>
> needs to be juxtaposed with this antiquated view
>
>> I would argue that the computer is the tool, not the language.
>
>
> ... a view that could not be held by an educated person after the
> 1960s -- ie when it became amply clear to all that the essential and
> hard issues in CS are about software and not hardware

I'll go ahead and forgive the club handed fallacies, so we can have a
nice discussion of your primary point.  What a civil troll I am :)

Lets start with some analogies.  In cooking, chefs use recipes to
produce a meal; the recipe is not a tool.  In architecture, a builder
uses a blueprint to produce a building; the blueprint is not a tool.
In manufacturing, expensive machines use plans to produce physical
goods; the plans are not the tool.

You could say the compiler is a tool, or a development environment is
a tool.  The programming language is a mechanism for communication.
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Re: Is there a better way to do this snippet?

2012-04-03 Thread nn

On Apr 3, 12:26 pm, Alain Ketterlin 
wrote:
> nn  writes:
> >> > for item in tag23gr:
> >> > ...        value, key = tuple(item)
> >> > ...        if(g23tag.get(key)):
> >> > ...                g23tag[key].append(value)
> >> > ...        else:
> >> > ...                g23tag[key] = [value]
>
> >> for item in tag23gr:
> >>     g23tag.setdefault(item[0],[]).append(item[1])
> > Or alternatively:
>
> > from collections import defaultdict
> > g23tag = defaultdict(list)
> > for item in tag23gr:
> > g23tag[item[0]].append(item[1])
>
> Very handy in that case, but in general I dislike the idea of silently
> inserting a default value when the access is a read, e.g., in
> x=g23tag[wrung]. Explicit is better than implicit, as they say. YMMV.
>
> -- Alain.

Valid point. Preferred choice depends on the access patterns to the
dict (e.g. one write and multiple reads, multiple writes and one loop
over items, etc.)
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Re: No os.copy()? Why not?

2012-04-03 Thread D'Arcy Cain


On 03/28/12 16:12, John Ladasky wrote:

I'm looking for a Python (2.7) equivalent to the Unix "cp" command.
Since the equivalents of "rm" and "mkdir" are in the os module, I
figured I look there.  I haven't found anything in the documentation.
I am also looking through the Python source code in os.py and its
child, posixfile.py.


cp is not a system command, it's a shell command.  Why not just use the
incredibly simple and portable

  >>>open("outfile", "w").write(open("infile").read())

put it into a method if you find that too much to type:

def cp(infile, outfile):
  open(outfile, "w").write(open(infile).read())

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IM: da...@vex.net
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What is the best way to freeze a Python 3 app (Windows)?

2012-04-03 Thread Paul Moore

I want to package up some of my Python 3 scripts to run standalone,
without depending on a system-installed Python. For my development, I
use virtualenv and install all my dependencies in the virtualenv,
develop the script and test it. When I'm done, I want to build an
executable which can run without depending on a system Python. What's
the best way of doing this? I previously would have used py2exe, but
that seems not to have Python 3 support. I have heard good things
about bbfreeze, but the author has stated that he has no intention of
supporting Python 3 just yet. I've tried cx_Freeze, but I've hit a
number of niggly problems which make me think it's not quite suitable
(I've reported some of them on the cx_Freeze mailing list, but it
seems pretty quiet - no real response).

That leaves me wondering if there's another option, or whether I
should just roll my own. if I zip up the stdlib, and my virtualenv
site-packages, and then put them plus the various Python DLLs in a
directory, copy my script in, and write a small EXE to set PYTHONHOME
and run Py_Main with my script as argument, that should do. But it
seems a bit laborious :-(

Is that really the best way?

Things I care about:
- Easy to package up a script
- Works with dependencies in a virtualenv
- Completely isolated from system Python (not even leaving directories
on sys.path, so I can do basic tests without having to create a clean
system with no Python installed).

Things I don't (really) care about:
- Stripping ununsed modules (although I'd like to omit "big" parts of
the stdlib that aren't used - tkinter and test come to mind)
- Space (the full stdlib is only 30M including pyc files, after all)

Any suggestions gratefully accepted :-)

Paul.
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Re: No os.copy()? Why not?

2012-04-03 Thread Tycho Andersen

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 03:46:31PM -0400, D'Arcy Cain wrote:
> On 03/28/12 16:12, John Ladasky wrote:
> >I'm looking for a Python (2.7) equivalent to the Unix "cp" command.
> >Since the equivalents of "rm" and "mkdir" are in the os module, I
> >figured I look there.  I haven't found anything in the documentation.
> >I am also looking through the Python source code in os.py and its
> >child, posixfile.py.
> 
> cp is not a system command, it's a shell command.  Why not just use the
> incredibly simple and portable
> 
>   >>>open("outfile", "w").write(open("infile").read())

Note, though, that this reads the whole file into memory. As many
others have said, shutil is the most idiomatic option.

\t
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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

2012-04-03 Thread Terry Reedy


On 4/3/2012 8:39 AM, Nathan Rice wrote:


Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see.  How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure?  How does a
chef describe a recipe?  How does a carpenter describe the process of
building cabinets?  Aside from specific words, they all use natural
language, and it works just fine.


Not really. Surgeon's learn by *watching* a surgeon who knows the 
operation and next (hopefully) doing a particular surgery under 
supervision of such a surgeon, who watches and talks, and may even grab 
the instruments and re-show. They then really learn by doing the 
procedure on multiple people. They often kill a few on the way to mastery.


I first learned basic carpentry and other skills by watching my father. 
I don't remember that he ever said anything about how to hold the tools.


I similarly learned basic cooking by watching my mom. My knowledge of 
how to crack open an egg properly and separate the yolk from the rest is 
a wordless memory movie.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: What is the best way to freeze a Python 3 app (Windows)?

2012-04-03 Thread Andrew Berg

cx_Freeze is the only program that can freeze py3k code that I know of.
I didn't have any major issues with it, but I've only played with it.
In any case, if you're going to roll your own, I'd be happy to help test it.

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Re: Re: No os.copy()? Why not?

2012-04-03 Thread Evan Driscoll


On 01/-10/-28163 01:59 PM, Tycho Andersen wrote:

Note, though, that this reads the whole file into memory. As many
others have said, shutil is the most idiomatic option.


* most idiomatic
* clearest in terms of showing intent
* potentially fastest
* hardest to screw up (unlike concatenating file names into a
  'system' call)
* has at least a snowball's chance of persisting metadata associated
  with the file (even if shutil doesn't now, it could theoretically
  change)
* portable

There's basically nothing NOT to like about shutil, and at least one 
significant problems with all the other suggestions.


Evan
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Run once while loop

2012-04-03 Thread Anatoli Hristov

Hi,

I'm trying to do a while loop with condition of time if time is
12:00:00 print text, but for this one second the text is printed at
least 50 times, how can I print only once?

Thank

Anatoli
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Re: Run once while loop

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Anatoli Hristov  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm trying to do a while loop with condition of time if time is
> 12:00:00 print text, but for this one second the text is printed at
> least 50 times, how can I print only once?

Set a flag when you print the text to indicate that you've already
printed it, and don't print it again if the flag is set.  When it's no
longer 12:00:00, reset the flag.

That said, a busy while loop is probably the wrong way to do this,
because it will run your CPU at 100%.  Better would be to put the
thread to sleep with time.sleep() calls or a real event loop with a
timer event.

Cheers,
Ian
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Re: xlrd 0.7.4 released!

2012-04-03 Thread Josh English

Maybe it's just me, but I tried to upgrade my previous versions of xlrd, 
xlwt, an xlutils and now some of the modules aren't loading properly.

I am currently using Portable Python 2.7 at this workstation.

I ran "easy_install --upgrade xlrd" and the result said it had updated. If 
I try to update again, it says it's already there.

When I try to import xlrd, I get an error

IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 
'C:\\Users\\josh\\Desktop\\Portable 
Python\\App\\lib\\site-packages\\xlrd-0.7.5-py2.7.egg\\xlrd\\version.txt'

I also noticed that in my Site Packages folder, I 
have xlrd-0.7.1-py2.7-win32.egg as an egg file, but xlrd-0.7.5-py2.7.egg as 
a folder.

This in on a Windows 7 machine.

I didn't think EGG files could be folders. Is there a change in the way the 
EGG file was meant to be distributed?

Josh English
Confused Data Geek

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Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> On 4/3/2012 8:39 AM, Nathan Rice wrote:
>
>> Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
>> to see.  How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure?  How does a
>> chef describe a recipe?  How does a carpenter describe the process of
>> building cabinets?  Aside from specific words, they all use natural
>> language, and it works just fine.
>
>
> Not really. Surgeon's learn by *watching* a surgeon who knows the operation
> and next (hopefully) doing a particular surgery under supervision of such a
> surgeon, who watches and talks, and may even grab the instruments and
> re-show. They then really learn by doing the procedure on multiple people.
> They often kill a few on the way to mastery.

Well, there is declarative knowledge and procedural knowledge.  In all
these cases, only the procedural knowledge is absolutely necessary,
but the declarative knowledge is usually a prerequisite to learning
the procedure in any sort of reasonable manner.

> I first learned basic carpentry and other skills by watching my father. I
> don't remember that he ever said anything about how to hold the tools.
>
> I similarly learned basic cooking by watching my mom. My knowledge of how to
> crack open an egg properly and separate the yolk from the rest is a wordless
> memory movie.

A picture is worth a thousand words :)

If you would like, I don't have any problem incorporating visual
programming and programming by demonstration.  I didn't go in that
direction because I have enough to defend as it is.  I like to look at
it from the perspective of teaching/communicating, rather than
operating a simple machine.
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Re: [pyxl] Re: xlrd 0.7.4 released!

2012-04-03 Thread Adrian Klaver


On 04/03/2012 01:46 PM, Josh English wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but I tried to upgrade my previous versions of xlrd,
xlwt, an xlutils and now some of the modules aren't loading properly.

I am currently using Portable Python 2.7 at this workstation.

I ran "easy_install --upgrade xlrd" and the result said it had updated.
If I try to update again, it says it's already there.

When I try to import xlrd, I get an error

IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory:
'C:\\Users\\josh\\Desktop\\Portable
Python\\App\\lib\\site-packages\\xlrd-0.7.5-py2.7.egg\\xlrd\\version.txt'

I also noticed that in my Site Packages folder, I have
xlrd-0.7.1-py2.7-win32.egg as an egg file, but xlrd-0.7.5-py2.7.egg as a
folder.

This in on a Windows 7 machine.

I didn't think EGG files could be folders. Is there a change in the way
the EGG file was meant to be distributed?


Interesting the below seemed to have got lost on way to Google Groups:

From Chris:
"
As pointed out, I stuffed up the release by not including a new file in 
the MANIFEST. My bad.


I've just release a 0.7.5 that fixes this.

cheers,

Chris "




Josh English
Confused Data Geek


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Re: Run once while loop

2012-04-03 Thread Anatoli Hristov

On 03 Apr 2012, at 22:45, Ian Kelly  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Anatoli Hristov  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm trying to do a while loop with condition of time if time is
>> 12:00:00 print text, but for this one second the text is printed at
>> least 50 times, how can I print only once?
>
> Set a flag when you print the text to indicate that you've already
> printed it, and don't print it again if the flag is set.  When it's no
> longer 12:00:00, reset the flag.
>
> That said, a busy while loop is probably the wrong way to do this,
> because it will run your CPU at 100%.  Better would be to put the
> thread to sleep with time.sleep() calls or a real event loop with a
> timer event.
>
> Cheers,
> Ian

Thank you Ian,

what if I wait for other conditions if I use time.sleep for 1 sec? it
means that all the program is sleeping for a sec.


Regards


Hristov Anatoli
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Re: Run once while loop