[Python-Dev] Re: Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?

[Skip Montanaro]

On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> > I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in
> my personal archives.  Both d...@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?)
> and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999.  I
> don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m
> retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the
> name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@.
>
> Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev
> goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message
> from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds.
>
> Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other
> messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive.


(Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.)

I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it
also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU
Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999
.
Perhaps python-dev content was embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python
before Apr 1999, but we were certainly discussing development of and in
Python well before 1999. Where did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my
failing memory. I can accept that. If you look at the filenames of the
earliest python-list and python-dev messages in the archives:


   - New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire
   
(python-list
   - Feb 1999 - 005101.html)
   - ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line
   
(python-dev
   - Apr 1999 - 095103.html)

you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages. Wouldn't
new lists simply start with message 00.html by default? The first
message in the csv mailing list is
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/00.html.

 Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is
gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've
heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages
about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to
bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the
Python language.

Thx again...

Skip
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[Python-Dev] Re: Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?

[Guido van Rossum]

Hm, I searched Google's comp.lang.python archives for mentions of
python-dev before 1999, and found this:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/-HjN6YjOZJg/wJGxiOlpt1MJ
(posted 6/22/98 by Marc-André Lemburg):

"What would you think of a python-dev list that takes at least
some of burdens of intergrating patches, testing, etc. off of your
back ? Then you'd have more time for design, etc."

(There's also a reply from me where I question whether it will save me any
time.) From this I understand that at that point, python-dev wasn't formed
yet.

Sadly it does appear as if the archives of Python lists before February
have mostly disappeared -- e.g. Activestate has the same first messages as
you quoted.

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 6:56 AM Skip Montanaro 
wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>
>> On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> > I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in
>> my personal archives.  Both d...@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?)
>> and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999.  I
>> don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m
>> retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the
>> name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@.
>>
>> Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev
>> goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message
>> from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds.
>>
>> Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other
>> messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive.
>
>
> (Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.)
>
> I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it
> also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU
> Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999
> .
> Perhaps python-dev content was embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python
> before Apr 1999, but we were certainly discussing development of and in
> Python well before 1999. Where did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my
> failing memory. I can accept that. If you look at the filenames of the
> earliest python-list and python-dev messages in the archives:
>
>
>- New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire
> 
> (python-list
>- Feb 1999 - 005101.html)
>- ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line
> 
> (python-dev
>- Apr 1999 - 095103.html)
>
> you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages.
> Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 00.html by default? The
> first message in the csv mailing list is
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/00.html.
>
>  Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is
> gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've
> heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages
> about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to
> bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the
> Python language.
>
> Thx again...
>
> Skip
>
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> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*

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[Python-Dev] Re: Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?

[Barry Warsaw]

comp.lang.python and thus python-list definitely predate Mailman.  In fact, my 
earliest Python story involves seeing c.l.py creation, browsing for a bit 
(because who doesn’t love a cool little language that just a handful of 
enthusiasts are raving about?), and finding it full only of Monty Python jokes. 
 Which of course are great, but why in comp.lang?!  Thanks, but I’ll stick with 
Perl. :)

Anyway, python-list and some of the other early lists I can’t find details on 
right now were originally hosted on Majorodomo.  Given that the Mailman 
archives only go back to 1999, and Guido (and thus most of the Python 
development infrastructure) had already moved to CNRI by then, it’s possible 
that the original Majordomo archives were never migrated into Mailman.  I just 
don’t remember and it would take more archive spelunking than I want to do 
right now.  Possibly Ken Manheimer would remember more details.

I kind of doubt those original Majordomo archives have survived the various 
hosting migrations since then, but maybe they are laying around on 
mail.python.org some place?

-Barry

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:48, Skip Montanaro  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> > I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in my 
> > personal archives.  Both d...@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?) and 
> > python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999.  I don’t 
> > remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m retroguessing 
> > that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the name, created 
> > python-dev@ and retired dev@.
> 
> Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev
> goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message
> from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds.
> 
> Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other
> messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive.
> 
> (Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.)
> 
> I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it also 
> only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU Mailman 
> itself isn't much older than 1999. Perhaps python-dev content was embedded in 
> python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were certainly 
> discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where did all the 
> archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept that. If you 
> look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and python-dev messages in 
> the archives:
> 
>   • New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire (python-list 
> - Feb 1999 - 005101.html)
>   • ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line (python-dev - Apr 
> 1999 - 095103.html)
> you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages. Wouldn't 
> new lists simply start with message 00.html by default? The first message 
> in the csv mailing list is 
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/00.html.
> 
>  Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is gone. 
> Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've heard the 
> Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages about 
> Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to bear 
> fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the Python 
> language.
> 
> Thx again...
> 
> Skip
> 



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[Python-Dev] Re: Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?

[Skip Montanaro]

Thanks all. I just pinged Ken and am going to rummage around mail.python.org
for a bit.

Skip

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 12:10 PM Barry Warsaw  wrote:

> comp.lang.python and thus python-list definitely predate Mailman.  In
> fact, my earliest Python story involves seeing c.l.py creation, browsing
> for a bit (because who doesn’t love a cool little language that just a
> handful of enthusiasts are raving about?), and finding it full only of
> Monty Python jokes.  Which of course are great, but why in comp.lang?!
> Thanks, but I’ll stick with Perl. :)
>
> Anyway, python-list and some of the other early lists I can’t find details
> on right now were originally hosted on Majorodomo.  Given that the Mailman
> archives only go back to 1999, and Guido (and thus most of the Python
> development infrastructure) had already moved to CNRI by then, it’s
> possible that the original Majordomo archives were never migrated into
> Mailman.  I just don’t remember and it would take more archive spelunking
> than I want to do right now.  Possibly Ken Manheimer would remember more
> details.
>
> I kind of doubt those original Majordomo archives have survived the
> various hosting migrations since then, but maybe they are laying around on
> mail.python.org some place?
>
> -Barry
>
> > On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:48, Skip Montanaro 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> > On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> > > I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages in
> my personal archives.  Both d...@python.org (at 09:49 server local time?)
> and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19, 1999.  I
> don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline, I’m
> retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the
> name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@.
> >
> > Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev
> > goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message
> > from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds.
> >
> > Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other
> > messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive.
> >
> > (Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.)
> >
> > I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it
> also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU
> Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999. Perhaps python-dev content was
> embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were
> certainly discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where
> did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept
> that. If you look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and
> python-dev messages in the archives:
> >
> >   • New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire
> (python-list - Feb 1999 - 005101.html)
> >   • ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line (python-dev
> - Apr 1999 - 095103.html)
> > you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages.
> Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 00.html by default? The
> first message in the csv mailing list is
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/00.html.
> >
> >  Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is
> gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've
> heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages
> about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to
> bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the
> Python language.
> >
> > Thx again...
> >
> > Skip
> >
>
>
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[Python-Dev] PEP 458: Secure PyPI downloads with package signing

[Sumana Harihareswara]

Hi! I'm forwarding this on behalf of Marina Moore https://github.com/mnm678 .

- Sumana Harihareswara
---


PEP 458 ( https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0458/ ) proposes using The Update 
Framework (TUF) to allow users of PyPI to verify that the packages they install 
originate from PyPI. Implementing this PEP would provide protection in the 
event of an attack on PyPI, its mirrors, or the network used to install 
packages.

We started this PEP in 2013, and have recently revised it and restarted 
discussion.

Recent discussion and revision of the PEP has been taking place on Discourse ( 
https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-458-secure-pypi-downloads-with-package-signing/2648/44
 ).

The PEP is ready for review and I look forward to your feedback!

Thanks,
Marina Moore
PEP 458 coauthor
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[Python-Dev] Steering Council Update (November through December)

[Ewa Jodlowska]

Hello!

Below is an update from the Steering Council. It covers November and
December.

The update has been added to the Steering Council repo:
https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/master/updates/2020-01-06-steering-council-update.md
(added
to README as well).



# Steering Council Community Update for November - December 2019

## November recap:
- Steering Council assigned one another tasks to check-in on and clean up
29 open PEPs in November (Nov 5 and Nov 12 meetings). See [PEP repo](
https://github.com/python/peps/) for details.
- Steering Council decided that going forward, only one person will need to
approve the minutes and the group will try to rotate that responsibility.
Additionally, to keep meetings efficient we will:
-  1. have a person responsible for the agenda to make sure the agenda
is accurate and timed appropriately
-  2. have a person run the actual meeting to make sure we stay on
topic and cut discussions when topics go over time.
- Steering Council discussed ideas on how to lower the count of PRs. It was
decided that Brett would start a discussion on Discourse with the idea to
close enhancement PRs. This has been done [here](
https://discuss.python.org/t/automatically-close-all-enhancement-prs-for-code-lacking-an-expert/2697).
At a later time, it was decided the idea would be shut down since many
folks did not approve.
- Steering Council discussed how a hiring plan can coincide with the Vision
Deck and how it would work with sponsor/corporate collaborations. The
Vision Deck is an overview document the Steering Council is drafting, which
will help develop Python's roadmap for the next 5 years. Goal is to have
the Vision Deck complete by PyCon 2020.
- Steering Council had a brief discussion about encouraging more candidates
to run for the next steering council and that everyone would work on
raising awareness for this.

## December recap:
- The Steering Council reviewed [PEP 584](
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0584/) (“Add + and += operators to the
built-in dict class”) and decided that Guido would let the PEP authors know
| and |= was preferred and that the PEP needed some editing. [This was
done](
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/P46F7NKO2EG6M4ZGFAKKWDSYEVVIBQR5/).
At a later time it was decided that Guido will be BDFL-Delegate.
- The Steering Council decided it would meet after the 2020 Steering
Council vote ended. The Steering Council will meet December 10 and December
17th. The hand-off meeting will happen the first week of January. Ewa will
send out a Doodle for the first full week of January once the new Steering
Council members are known. It was decided that on January 8th, 2020 the
Steering Council will have a hand-off meeting between the 2019 team and
2020 team.
- Steering Council decided that we would send out ballots to Marc-Andre
Lemburg, Alex Martelli, and Kurt B. Kaiser. [Brett responded to thread](
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committ...@python.org/message/HK4LNQEA3CMSZTGOZTC766NIS4CNPG7O/)
noting this decision and future plans for [PEP 13](
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0013/).
- Steering Council discussed [PEP 611](
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0611/). Barry [emailed the python-dev@
list](
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KY46EXGLKNTFMQZXKHMMYWD2GIM5PDL5/)
with the outcome of the discussion.
- Steering Council discussed PyPI’s typosquatting issues.
- Group discussed the status of the GitHub migration plan. Ewa drafted a
job description for the Project Manager role to help with the GitHub
migration for the Dec 17th SC meeting. The Steering Council reviewed it and
Ewa scheduled a call with the GitHub team for late January for next steps.
- Steering Council decided to keep Zulip since the Packaging-wg plans on
using it. We will re-evaluate usage next year. Guido informed the
[Discourse thread](
https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-continue-using-zulip/2816/7). Brett
[posted an announcement](
https://python.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/116742-core.2Fhelp/topic/Engagement.20here.20might.20be.20winding.20down)
in Zulip.


Thank you,

Ewa

---
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donations to support the Python community. Check out our Annual Impact
Report for more details: https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2019/
*
*Please contribute to PSF; we can't continue our work without your
support! https://www.python.org/psf/donations/
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[Python-Dev] Re: Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?

[Guido van Rossum]

Via Twitter I got
ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/mirror/python/search/hypermail/python-recent/, which has
earlier python-list archives, ending in April 1995. Not exactly what you
were looking for but probably also worth saving before that archive dies.

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 11:56 AM Skip Montanaro 
wrote:

> Thanks all. I just pinged Ken and am going to rummage around
> mail.python.org for a bit.
>
> Skip
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 12:10 PM Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>
>> comp.lang.python and thus python-list definitely predate Mailman.  In
>> fact, my earliest Python story involves seeing c.l.py creation, browsing
>> for a bit (because who doesn’t love a cool little language that just a
>> handful of enthusiasts are raving about?), and finding it full only of
>> Monty Python jokes.  Which of course are great, but why in comp.lang?!
>> Thanks, but I’ll stick with Perl. :)
>>
>> Anyway, python-list and some of the other early lists I can’t find
>> details on right now were originally hosted on Majorodomo.  Given that the
>> Mailman archives only go back to 1999, and Guido (and thus most of the
>> Python development infrastructure) had already moved to CNRI by then, it’s
>> possible that the original Majordomo archives were never migrated into
>> Mailman.  I just don’t remember and it would take more archive spelunking
>> than I want to do right now.  Possibly Ken Manheimer would remember more
>> details.
>>
>> I kind of doubt those original Majordomo archives have survived the
>> various hosting migrations since then, but maybe they are laying around on
>> mail.python.org some place?
>>
>> -Barry
>>
>> > On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:48, Skip Montanaro 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>> > On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> > > I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages
>> in my personal archives.  Both d...@python.org (at 09:49 server local
>> time?) and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19,
>> 1999.  I don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the timeline,
>> I’m retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly rethought the
>> name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@.
>> >
>> > Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev
>> > goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message
>> > from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds.
>> >
>> > Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other
>> > messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive.
>> >
>> > (Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.)
>> >
>> > I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list, it
>> also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU
>> Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999. Perhaps python-dev content was
>> embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were
>> certainly discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where
>> did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept
>> that. If you look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and
>> python-dev messages in the archives:
>> >
>> >   • New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire
>> (python-list - Feb 1999 - 005101.html)
>> >   • ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line (python-dev
>> - Apr 1999 - 095103.html)
>> > you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages.
>> Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 00.html by default? The
>> first message in the csv mailing list is
>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/00.html.
>> >
>> >  Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane is
>> gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've
>> heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages
>> about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to
>> bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the
>> Python language.
>> >
>> > Thx again...
>> >
>> > Skip
>> >
>>
>> ___
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> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*

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[Python-Dev] Re: Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?

[Skip Montanaro]

Thanks. Mirroring to my laptop now. Will discuss how to preserve it more
permanently with postmaster.

Skip

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 4:43 PM Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> Via Twitter I got
> ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/mirror/python/search/hypermail/python-recent/, which
> has earlier python-list archives, ending in April 1995. Not exactly what
> you were looking for but probably also worth saving before that archive
> dies.
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 11:56 AM Skip Montanaro 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks all. I just pinged Ken and am going to rummage around
>> mail.python.org for a bit.
>>
>> Skip
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 12:10 PM Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>>
>>> comp.lang.python and thus python-list definitely predate Mailman.  In
>>> fact, my earliest Python story involves seeing c.l.py creation,
>>> browsing for a bit (because who doesn’t love a cool little language that
>>> just a handful of enthusiasts are raving about?), and finding it full only
>>> of Monty Python jokes.  Which of course are great, but why in comp.lang?!
>>> Thanks, but I’ll stick with Perl. :)
>>>
>>> Anyway, python-list and some of the other early lists I can’t find
>>> details on right now were originally hosted on Majorodomo.  Given that the
>>> Mailman archives only go back to 1999, and Guido (and thus most of the
>>> Python development infrastructure) had already moved to CNRI by then, it’s
>>> possible that the original Majordomo archives were never migrated into
>>> Mailman.  I just don’t remember and it would take more archive spelunking
>>> than I want to do right now.  Possibly Ken Manheimer would remember more
>>> details.
>>>
>>> I kind of doubt those original Majordomo archives have survived the
>>> various hosting migrations since then, but maybe they are laying around on
>>> mail.python.org some place?
>>>
>>> -Barry
>>>
>>> > On Jan 6, 2020, at 06:48, Skip Montanaro 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:25 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>>> > On 1/1/20 11:22 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>> > > I am looking at the MM2 mailing list creation confirmation messages
>>> in my personal archives.  Both d...@python.org (at 09:49 server local
>>> time?) and python-dev@python.org (at 14:17) were created on April 19,
>>> 1999.  I don’t remember what happened to dev@ but based on the
>>> timeline, I’m retroguessing that we created dev@ first, then quickly
>>> rethought the name, created python-dev@ and retired dev@.
>>> >
>>> > Just to provide some closure here, the pipermail archive for python-dev
>>> > goes back to April 21, 1999. There is one, possibly spurious message
>>> > from some other list dated March 16, 1995 from Linus Torvalds.
>>> >
>>> > Aside from this one message and as far as I can tell, all the other
>>> > messages from April 21 forward are in the current Hyperkitty archive.
>>> >
>>> > (Apologies for letting this drop for a couple days.)
>>> >
>>> > I'm still befuddled. When I look at the MM2 archive for python-list,
>>> it also only goes back to Feb 1999. Surely I'm missing something. Maybe GNU
>>> Mailman itself isn't much older than 1999. Perhaps python-dev content was
>>> embedded in python-list/comp.lang.python before Apr 1999, but we were
>>> certainly discussing development of and in Python well before 1999. Where
>>> did all the archives go? Maybe it's just my failing memory. I can accept
>>> that. If you look at the filenames of the earliest python-list and
>>> python-dev messages in the archives:
>>> >
>>> >   • New (?) suggestion to solve "assignment-in-while" desire
>>> (python-list - Feb 1999 - 005101.html)
>>> >   • ZServer 1.0b1: spurious colon in HTTP response line
>>> (python-dev - Apr 1999 - 095103.html)
>>> > you get the impression that there must have been earlier messages.
>>> Wouldn't new lists simply start with message 00.html by default? The
>>> first message in the csv mailing list is
>>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/csv/2003-January/00.html.
>>> >
>>> >  Perhaps what I really pine for are comp.lang.python archives? GMane
>>> is gone. Google Groups seems to have nothing. They must be someplace. I've
>>> heard the Internet never forgets. Even if my personal quest (old messages
>>> about Rattlesnake and other alternative virtual machine projects) fails to
>>> bear fruit, I suspect there is value in maintaining the history of the
>>> Python language.
>>> >
>>> > Thx again...
>>> >
>>> > Skip
>>> >
>>>
>>> ___
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>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
>> Message archived at
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KNITMEVRZZJY2DHYJBBQPCWKCP2DX7JV/
>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> 

[Python-Dev] Re: Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 1/6/20 2:43 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> Via Twitter I got
> ftp://ftp.ntua.gr/mirror/python/search/hypermail/python-recent/, which
> has earlier python-list archives, ending in April 1995. Not exactly what
> you were looking for but probably also worth saving before that archive
> dies.


Actually there's quite a bit more than that. see
. I have grabbed that
entire directory and it is now visible at
. Because of
the way that 

[Python-Dev] Re: Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 1/6/20 8:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> Actually there's quite a bit more than that. see
> . I have grabbed that
> entire directory and it is now visible at
> . Because of
> the way that  updated, the link to 'old_stuff' can't be added to that page in a way
> that will persist as new messages are archived, but at least they are
> there until someone comes up with a better place.


Also note that comp.lang.python and hence python-list from late March
1994 onward is archived at



-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Python-Dev] Re: Python-dev mailing lis archives earlier than late April 1999?

[Guido van Rossum]

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:17 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 1/6/20 8:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >
> > Actually there's quite a bit more than that. see
> > . I have grabbed that
> > entire directory and it is now visible at
> > . Because of
> > the way that  > updated, the link to 'old_stuff' can't be added to that page in a way
> > that will persist as new messages are archived, but at least they are
> > there until someone comes up with a better place.
>

Thanks!


> Also note that comp.lang.python and hence python-list from late March
> 1994 onward is archived at
> 
>

That's good, because the 1994Q4 link on the archive you downloaded points
to http://grail.cnri.reston.va.us/cgi-bin/mlaform/mla/94q4/, which doesn't
exist any more. As introduction explains,

I have kept (almost) all messages posted to the Python mailing list and
newsgroup while I lived in Amsterdam -- until mid April 1995. These are
accessible as hypertext, converted by Kevin Huges' excellent hypermail
program. (Except the last quarter of 1994, which was -- as an experiment --
maintained by Sam Leffler's MLA tools.)

Shame on me for using closed-source software.
-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*

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