[Python-Dev] _Py_Identifier should support non-ASCII string?

2019-06-20 Thread Inada Naoki
Hi, all.

Both of PyUnicdoe_FromString() and _Py_Identifier are
supporting UTF-8 for now.  We can not change PyUnicode_FromString()
for backward compatibility,
so we have _PyUnicode_FromASCII instead.

But _Py_Identifier is still private. And non-ASCII identifier
is not practical.
Can we change _PyUnicode_FromId to use _PyUnicode_FromASCII?

Regards,
-- 
Inada Naoki  
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[Python-Dev] Re: _Py_Identifier should support non-ASCII string?

2019-06-20 Thread Steve Dower

On 20Jun2019 0205, Inada Naoki wrote:

Hi, all.

Both of PyUnicdoe_FromString() and _Py_Identifier are
supporting UTF-8 for now.  We can not change PyUnicode_FromString()
for backward compatibility,
so we have _PyUnicode_FromASCII instead.

But _Py_Identifier is still private. And non-ASCII identifier
is not practical.
Can we change _PyUnicode_FromId to use _PyUnicode_FromASCII?


What benefit would this provide? And why is a non-ASCII identifier not 
practical?


Cheers,
Steve
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[Python-Dev] Re: _Py_Identifier should support non-ASCII string?

2019-06-20 Thread Victor Stinner
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 11:15, Inada Naoki  a écrit :
> Can we change _PyUnicode_FromId to use _PyUnicode_FromASCII?

How would a developer detect a mistake (non-ASCII) character? Does
_PyUnicode_FromASCII() raise an exception, even in release mode?

The function is only called once (that's the whole purpose of the
Py_IDENTIFER() API. Is it really worth it?

Victor
-- 
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Who uses libpython38.a on Windows?

2019-06-20 Thread Steve Dower

On 14Jun2019 1930, MRAB wrote:
I'm able to build the regex module without it; in fact, I believe I've 
been able to do so since Python 3.5!


This is about the only specific feedback I've received (including on 
Twitter, where most reactions were "I have no idea what file you're 
talking about"), so I'm going to drop the MinGW lib from 3.8 and update 
the docs with instruction.


Cheers,
Steve
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[Python-Dev] Re: _Py_Identifier should support non-ASCII string?

2019-06-20 Thread David Mertz
This change would break two lovely functions I wrote this week.

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 12:35 PM Steve Dower  wrote:

> On 20Jun2019 0205, Inada Naoki wrote:
> > Hi, all.
> >
> > Both of PyUnicdoe_FromString() and _Py_Identifier are
> > supporting UTF-8 for now.  We can not change PyUnicode_FromString()
> > for backward compatibility,
> > so we have _PyUnicode_FromASCII instead.
> >
> > But _Py_Identifier is still private. And non-ASCII identifier
> > is not practical.
> > Can we change _PyUnicode_FromId to use _PyUnicode_FromASCII?
>
> What benefit would this provide? And why is a non-ASCII identifier not
> practical?
>
> Cheers,
> Steve
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>
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[Python-Dev] Re: _Py_Identifier should support non-ASCII string?

2019-06-20 Thread Inada Naoki
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 1:23 AM Steve Dower  wrote:
>
> What benefit would this provide?

It is faster, of course.

The whole benefit will be not significant for now.
But I'm thinking of making _Py_Identifier public (CPython API) in the future.
If we make it public, breaking change is hard after that.

So I want to confirm it's intended that _Py_Identifier support non-ASCII.
If it's not intended, more strict equals to more possibility of
optimization in the future.


> And why is a non-ASCII identifier not
> practical?
>

Hm, I might wrong about the nuance of the word "practical".
I meant it's very uncommon.   It's because:

* While we allow non-ASCII identifier in Python, we don't use them in core.
* Most usage of _Py_Identifier creates C variable named like C PyId_foo.
* There is _Py_static_string which doesn't create variable named like PyId_foo,
  but all usage in CPython uses ASCII only, and _Py_Identifier is still private.

-- 
Inada Naoki  
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[Python-Dev] Re: _Py_Identifier should support non-ASCII string?

2019-06-20 Thread Inada Naoki
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 1:28 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:
>
> Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 11:15, Inada Naoki  a écrit :
> > Can we change _PyUnicode_FromId to use _PyUnicode_FromASCII?
>
> How would a developer detect a mistake (non-ASCII) character? Does
> _PyUnicode_FromASCII() raise an exception, even in release mode?

No.  That's one of the reasons why _PyUnicode_FromASCII is much faster
than PyUnicode_FromString().

>
> The function is only called once (that's the whole purpose of the
> Py_IDENTIFER() API. Is it really worth it?
>

Maybe no, at least for now.
I just want to ask is it really worth it to support non-ASCII identifier,
before we make it public or 3rd parties start using it widely.

-- 
Inada Naoki  
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[Python-Dev] Re: _Py_Identifier should support non-ASCII string?

2019-06-20 Thread Inada Naoki
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 6:55 AM David Mertz  wrote:
>
> This change would break two lovely functions I wrote this week.
>

Are your lovely functions in CPython, or in your project?

_Py_Identifier is still private and undocumented.
But I expect someone start using it outside of CPython.
So I wanted to discuss we really need to support non-ASCII before that.

But it seems I was late already.

-- 
Inada Naoki  
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[Python-Dev] Re: _Py_Identifier should support non-ASCII string?

2019-06-20 Thread David Mertz
Ok. Good point. I used Unicode identifiers in my own project, not in
CPython. Some Greek letters that represent common mathematical concepts.

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 11:27 PM Inada Naoki  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 6:55 AM David Mertz  wrote:
> >
> > This change would break two lovely functions I wrote this week.
> >
>
> Are your lovely functions in CPython, or in your project?
>
> _Py_Identifier is still private and undocumented.
> But I expect someone start using it outside of CPython.
> So I wanted to discuss we really need to support non-ASCII before that.
>
> But it seems I was late already.
>
> --
> Inada Naoki  
>
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