[Python-Dev] Communication channels

2018-10-01 Thread Victor Stinner
Hi,

Last months, new communication channels appear. This is just a
reminder that they exist:

* Zulip: https://python.zulipchat.com/ (exist since 1 year?)
* Discourse: http://discuss.python.org/ (I'm not sure if it's fully
official yet ;-))
* IRC: #python-dev on FreeNode, only for development *of* Python,
mostly to discuss bugs and pull requests
* Mailing lists: python-ideas, python-dev, etc.

Some core developers are also active on Twitter. Some ideas were first
discussed on Twitter. You may want to follow some of them. Incomplete
list of core devs that I follow:

* Barry Warsaw: https://twitter.com/pumpichank
* Brett Cannon: https://twitter.com/brettsky
* Guido van Rossum: https://twitter.com/gvanrossum
* Łukasz Langa: https://twitter.com/llanga
* Mariatta: https://twitter.com/Mariatta
* Serhiy Storchaka: https://twitter.com/SerhiyStorchaka
* Yury Selivanov: https://twitter.com/1st1
* ... the full list is very long, and I'm too lazy to complete it :-)
Maybe someone has already a list more complete than mine.

I hope that I didn't miss an important communication channel :-)

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Communication channels

2018-10-01 Thread Chris Jerdonek
Another one is GitHub (and the bug tracker, for that matter). For
example, I believe here is where the discussion took place that led to
the initial draft of PEP 582 re: recognizing a local __packages__
directory:
https://github.com/kushaldas/peps/pull/1

The PEP was posted here:
https://github.com/python/peps/pull/776
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0582/

To my knowledge it hasn't been discussed on python-dev yet.

Also, if you are trying to be complete, another communication channel
is in-person events and conferences, etc.

--Chris


On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 4:21 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Last months, new communication channels appear. This is just a
> reminder that they exist:
>
> * Zulip: https://python.zulipchat.com/ (exist since 1 year?)
> * Discourse: http://discuss.python.org/ (I'm not sure if it's fully
> official yet ;-))
> * IRC: #python-dev on FreeNode, only for development *of* Python,
> mostly to discuss bugs and pull requests
> * Mailing lists: python-ideas, python-dev, etc.
>
> Some core developers are also active on Twitter. Some ideas were first
> discussed on Twitter. You may want to follow some of them. Incomplete
> list of core devs that I follow:
>
> * Barry Warsaw: https://twitter.com/pumpichank
> * Brett Cannon: https://twitter.com/brettsky
> * Guido van Rossum: https://twitter.com/gvanrossum
> * Łukasz Langa: https://twitter.com/llanga
> * Mariatta: https://twitter.com/Mariatta
> * Serhiy Storchaka: https://twitter.com/SerhiyStorchaka
> * Yury Selivanov: https://twitter.com/1st1
> * ... the full list is very long, and I'm too lazy to complete it :-)
> Maybe someone has already a list more complete than mine.
>
> I hope that I didn't miss an important communication channel :-)
>
> Victor
> ___
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/chris.jerdonek%40gmail.com
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Re: [Python-Dev] Communication channels

2018-10-01 Thread Victor Stinner
Le lun. 1 oct. 2018 à 14:14, Chris Jerdonek  a écrit :
> Also, if you are trying to be complete, another communication channel
> is in-person events and conferences, etc.

Right, there are two main events for CPython core developers which are
only in the US:

* Language Summit during Pycon US (one day)
* Sprint in September (one week)

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Communication channels

2018-10-01 Thread Brett Cannon
On Mon, 1 Oct 2018 at 05:15, Chris Jerdonek 
wrote:

> Another one is GitHub (and the bug tracker, for that matter). For
> example, I believe here is where the discussion took place that led to
> the initial draft of PEP 582 re: recognizing a local __packages__
> directory:
> https://github.com/kushaldas/peps/pull/1


It started on GitHub and then continued in person at the dev sprints.


>
>
> The PEP was posted here:
> https://github.com/python/peps/pull/776
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0582/
>
> To my knowledge it hasn't been discussed on python-dev yet.
>

Nope, I assume because there is no one to actually approve it so there's no
point it discussing it yet. :)

-Brett


>
> Also, if you are trying to be complete, another communication channel
> is in-person events and conferences, etc.
>
> --Chris
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 4:21 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Last months, new communication channels appear. This is just a
> > reminder that they exist:
> >
> > * Zulip: https://python.zulipchat.com/ (exist since 1 year?)
> > * Discourse: http://discuss.python.org/ (I'm not sure if it's fully
> > official yet ;-))
> > * IRC: #python-dev on FreeNode, only for development *of* Python,
> > mostly to discuss bugs and pull requests
> > * Mailing lists: python-ideas, python-dev, etc.
> >
> > Some core developers are also active on Twitter. Some ideas were first
> > discussed on Twitter. You may want to follow some of them. Incomplete
> > list of core devs that I follow:
> >
> > * Barry Warsaw: https://twitter.com/pumpichank
> > * Brett Cannon: https://twitter.com/brettsky
> > * Guido van Rossum: https://twitter.com/gvanrossum
> > * Łukasz Langa: https://twitter.com/llanga
> > * Mariatta: https://twitter.com/Mariatta
> > * Serhiy Storchaka: https://twitter.com/SerhiyStorchaka
> > * Yury Selivanov: https://twitter.com/1st1
> > * ... the full list is very long, and I'm too lazy to complete it :-)
> > Maybe someone has already a list more complete than mine.
> >
> > I hope that I didn't miss an important communication channel :-)
> >
> > Victor
> > ___
> > Python-Dev mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
> > Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/chris.jerdonek%40gmail.com
> ___
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>
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[Python-Dev] LDLAST variable in configure.ac

2018-10-01 Thread Michael Felt
Hi all,

Before I submit a patch to increase the default MAXDATA setting for AIX
when in 32-bit mode - I want to know if I can put this LDFLAG setting in
LDLAST, or if I should introduce a new AC_SUBST() variable (e.g.,
LDMAXDATA).

I have not looked yet, but I was thinking that MAYBE! LDLAST is intended
as a last resort variable that can be modified in Makefile.

Thanks!

Michael




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Re: [Python-Dev] Communication channels

2018-10-01 Thread Tres Seaver
On 10/01/2018 07:19 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:

> Some core developers are also active on Twitter. Some ideas were first
> discussed on Twitter. You may want to follow some of them. Incomplete
> list of core devs that I follow:

I'm pretty strongly -1 on the notion that folks who subscribe python-dev,
BPO, and the github repositories should need to *also* follow an
arbitrarily-growing set of Twitter accounts:  how would one know if a new
one popped into being?  How likely is it that everything a given Python
developer tweets is relevant for the Python development community?


Tres.
-- 
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  [email protected]
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com

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Re: [Python-Dev] Communication channels

2018-10-01 Thread Ethan Furman

On 10/01/2018 01:29 PM, Tres Seaver wrote:


I'm pretty strongly -1 on the notion that folks who subscribe python-dev,
BPO, and the github repositories should need to *also* follow an
arbitrarily-growing set of Twitter accounts:  how would one know if a new
one popped into being?  How likely is it that everything a given Python
developer tweets is relevant for the Python development community?


+1

Anything more than an initial idea really should occur on an ML, 
tracker, or repo.


--
~Ethan~
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Re: [Python-Dev] Communication channels

2018-10-01 Thread Victor Stinner
Le lun. 1 oct. 2018 à 22:32, Tres Seaver  a écrit :
> I'm pretty strongly -1 on the notion that folks who subscribe python-dev,
> BPO, and the github repositories should need to *also* follow an
> arbitrarily-growing set of Twitter accounts:  how would one know if a new
> one popped into being?  How likely is it that everything a given Python
> developer tweets is relevant for the Python development community?

My intent is not to ask you to subscribe to everything. I just wanted
to list all communication channels and let you make your own choices.
In my case, I'm unable to follow Zulip chat. There are too many
communication channels for me :-)

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Change in Python 3's "round" behavior

2018-10-01 Thread Michael Felt


On 9/30/2018 2:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>  (It's also called Dutch Rounding.)

Ah - as to why - and from school! (as so-called intuitive! rather desired!).

A test score goes from 5.5 to 6.0 - which becomes passing.

Oh, do I recall my children's frustrations when they had a X.4Y score -
that became X.0. Tears!

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Re: [Python-Dev] Communication channels

2018-10-01 Thread Matthias Bussonnier
On Mon, 1 Oct 2018 at 13:38, Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Le lun. 1 oct. 2018 à 22:32, Tres Seaver  a écrit :
> > I'm pretty strongly -1 on the notion that folks who subscribe python-dev,
> > BPO, and the github repositories should need to *also* follow an
> > arbitrarily-growing set of Twitter accounts:  how would one know if a new
> > one popped into being?  How likely is it that everything a given Python
> > developer tweets is relevant for the Python development community?
>
> My intent is not to ask you to subscribe to everything. I just wanted

to list all communication channels and let you make your own choices.


And too modest to add self to list of twitter accounts...
https://twitter.com/VictorStinner
Or did he deemed himself not worthy of beeing followed ?

I was tempted to do a joke based on "takes 0 positional arguments but 1 was
given"...

Much love for the time you take to list all those channels and reach out to
the community.
-- 
M
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[Python-Dev] dear core-devs

2018-10-01 Thread Michael Felt
Dear core-devs,

I have some bad characteristics.

I can be extremely enthusiastic - and write too much. I have been trying
to not write - anything - worried that my enthusiasm is not matched by
yours, or worse was a reason to ignore my work to get AIX passing all tests.

FYI: since the end of July I have dedicated 16 to 24 hours of my free
time to get this done. All for Python; all in my freetime. My employer
does not care - I do, or did.

I am grateful to Martin Panter - who helped me graciously when I knew
absolutely nothing when I first got started; Victor was kind enough to
answer some emails and help me along but also clear that he has zero
interest in AIX and my questions were taking too much of his time.
Regretfully for me.

Again - Victor - thank you for your time. I appreciated the assistance
and feedback.

(Others have helped from time to time, my apologies for not naming you
specifically.)

I am, to put it lightly, extremely frustrated, at this point.

I am sorry, for myself obviously - but also for Python. Obviously, I am
doing it all wrong - as I see lots of other issues being picked up
immediately.

All volunteers need some level of recognition to keep moving on.

And, while you may not give a damn about anything other than Windows,
macos and/or Linux - there are other platforms that would like a stable
Python.

Sincerely,

Michael




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Re: [Python-Dev] LDLAST variable in configure.ac

2018-10-01 Thread Benjamin Peterson



On Mon, Oct 1, 2018, at 12:12, Michael Felt wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Before I submit a patch to increase the default MAXDATA setting for AIX
> when in 32-bit mode - I want to know if I can put this LDFLAG setting in
> LDLAST, or if I should introduce a new AC_SUBST() variable (e.g.,
> LDMAXDATA).

I think you should just put it in LDFLAGS.

> 
> I have not looked yet, but I was thinking that MAYBE! LDLAST is intended
> as a last resort variable that can be modified in Makefile.

LDLAST looks vestigial from OSF/1 support and should probably be removed.
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Re: [Python-Dev] dear core-devs

2018-10-01 Thread Steven D'Aprano
Hi Michael, and welcome,

On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 12:41:56AM +0200, Michael Felt wrote:

[...]
> FYI: since the end of July I have dedicated 16 to 24 hours of my free
> time to get this done. All for Python; all in my freetime. My employer
> does not care - I do, or did.

[...]
> I am, to put it lightly, extremely frustrated, at this point.

Okay, but what are you frustrated *about*?


> I am sorry, for myself obviously - but also for Python. Obviously, I am
> doing it all wrong - as I see lots of other issues being picked up
> immediately.

Doing what wrong?


> All volunteers need some level of recognition to keep moving on.
> 
> And, while you may not give a damn about anything other than Windows,
> macos and/or Linux - there are other platforms that would like a stable
> Python.

???

Have the core devs decided to drop support for AIX? Have your patches 
been rejected or something? Please explain what the actual problem is.



-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] dear core-devs

2018-10-01 Thread Tres Seaver
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Hash: SHA1

On 10/01/2018 06:41 PM, Michael Felt wrote:

> And, while you may not give a damn about anything other than Windows, 
> macos and/or Linux - there are other platforms that would like a
> stable Python.

Michael,

I can understand the frustration you feel:  you have been putting effort
into a labor of love geting Python support on AIX (back?) into shape, and
feel that your efforts are unappreciated, or worse, that they will be waste
d.

The key thing to realize about the various core developers (and the
broader Python and open source communities) is that their attention is a
heavily over-committed resource:  it isn't that folks here aren't
benevolent toward your efforts, but rather that each of them (us?) makes
decisions every day juggling which projects / tasks to give the minutes /
hours we have available.  In the common case, the "triage" involves
scrathing an itch:  this bug affects me / my work, that feature would
make my life / my employment simpler, etc.  Even where there are minutes
available, the "is reviewing this feasible for me?" question kicks in.

Because AIX is relatively narrow in the scope of folks it impacts, the
average, overcommitted developer is likely to see a bug report, or even a
pull request, which makes stuff build on AIX and say, "Hmm, I don't know
enough to evalute that one, I'll leave it to folks who do know (and by
implication, who have some skin in the game)."  Even for more
consumer-focused platforms, it has historically been harder to get
attention for bugs / patches which affect only a single platform (Windows
file locking semantics, or the Mac installer, etc.)

One key way to get past that hurdle is to slice the size of each "thing"
down as fine as possible:  e.g., a pull request adding a single "#ifdef
AIX" block to one file.  Anything more than a screenful of diff is likely
to trigger the "let someone else review it" pattern, whereas being able
to scan the patch at a glance lets even a non-itchy reviewer decide,
"well, at least it can't hurt anything, give it a shot."

Once you've gotten a number of those small patches merged, you will find
that you've built a relationship with the folks who have been reviewing
them, and that they are more likely to pass them, and to review larger
ones, at least in part because *you* will have learned more about what is
needed in terms of code style, documentation, test coverage, etc., and
*they* will have learned to trust your judgement.

I'm sorry it isn't easier,


Tres.
- -- 
===
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Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
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