[Python-Dev] New Subscriber

2018-09-01 Thread Kevin Kowitski via Python-Dev
Hey Everyone! 

   I am new to this mailing list. I have experience with software development 
in the medical device industry and SaaS technology solutions. I have primarily 
worked with R, Java, and various unique and specific machine languages, but I 
have recently picked up Python. 
   Part of what has brought me to this mailing list was my search for insights 
on Python’s usability as a shareable, executable, desktop application. I often 
make tools for streamlining my professional tasks and decided I wanted to give 
Python a try. I have read that there are some fantastic GUI libraries and 
development environments, but how practical is this language for distributing 
those programs in a nicely packaged exe? 
If there is anyone here with some insight I would love to start off my 
membership with a discussion and some knowledge sharing!

Best,
Kevin

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Python-Dev] New Subscriber

2018-09-01 Thread Brett Cannon
Hi, Kevin! This mailing list is actually about the development *of* Python,
not *with* it. To have a discussion about GUI programming with Python is
probably python-list is a better place to discuss this.

On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 10:37 Kevin Kowitski via Python-Dev <
[email protected]> wrote:

> Hey Everyone!
>
>I am new to this mailing list. I have experience with software
> development in the medical device industry and SaaS technology solutions. I
> have primarily worked with R, Java, and various unique and specific machine
> languages, but I have recently picked up Python.
>Part of what has brought me to this mailing list was my search for
> insights on Python’s usability as a shareable, executable, desktop
> application. I often make tools for streamlining my professional tasks and
> decided I wanted to give Python a try. I have read that there are some
> fantastic GUI libraries and development environments, but how practical is
> this language for distributing those programs in a nicely packaged exe?
> If there is anyone here with some insight I would love to start off my
> membership with a discussion and some knowledge sharing!
>
> Best,
> Kevin
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
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> [email protected]
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
> Unsubscribe:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/brett%40python.org
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] make patchcheck and git path

2018-09-01 Thread Michael
On 28/08/2018 09:57, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Michael Felt (aixtools) writes:
>
>  > When building out of tree there is no .git reference. If I
>  > understand the process it uses git to see what files have changed,
>  > and does further processing on those.
>
> Just guessing based on generic git knowledge here:
>
> If you build in a sibling directory of the .git directory, git should
> "see" the GITDIR, and it should work.  Where is your build directory
> relative to the GITDIR?
I work in "parallel"
/data/prj/python/python-version
/data/prj/python/git/python-version

I suppose I should try setting GITDIR - but, I think it would be better,
at least nicer, if "patchcheck" as a target did some checking for git
early on, rather than bail out at the end. The results of the check
might be just a message to set GITDIR, e.g..
> I suspect you could also set GITDIR=/path/to/python/source/.git in
> make's process environment, and do "make patchcheck" outside of the
> Python source tree successfully.
I'll give this a try next time around. (vacation, so not really 'active'
atm).

Thanks for the suggestions.
>
> Regards,
>




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Re: [Python-Dev] New Subscriber

2018-09-01 Thread Kevin Kowitski via Python-Dev
Oh!  I’m so sorry haha. I thought this was a developers forum for users of 
Python. So you are saying Python-list would be that type of forum? 

-Kevin

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2018, at 1:48 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> 
> Hi, Kevin! This mailing list is actually about the development of Python, not 
> with it. To have a discussion about GUI programming with Python is probably 
> python-list is a better place to discuss this.
> 
>> On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 10:37 Kevin Kowitski via Python-Dev 
>>  wrote:
>> Hey Everyone! 
>> 
>>I am new to this mailing list. I have experience with software 
>> development in the medical device industry and SaaS technology solutions. I 
>> have primarily worked with R, Java, and various unique and specific machine 
>> languages, but I have recently picked up Python. 
>>Part of what has brought me to this mailing list was my search for 
>> insights on Python’s usability as a shareable, executable, desktop 
>> application. I often make tools for streamlining my professional tasks and 
>> decided I wanted to give Python a try. I have read that there are some 
>> fantastic GUI libraries and development environments, but how practical is 
>> this language for distributing those programs in a nicely packaged exe? 
>> If there is anyone here with some insight I would love to start off my 
>> membership with a discussion and some knowledge sharing!
>> 
>> Best,
>> Kevin
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ___
>> Python-Dev mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
>> Unsubscribe: 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/brett%40python.org
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Re: [Python-Dev] New Subscriber

2018-09-01 Thread Brett Cannon
Yep, python-list sounds like the mailing list that you're after.

On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 11:12 Kevin Kowitski  wrote:

> Oh!  I’m so sorry haha. I thought this was a developers forum for users of
> Python. So you are saying Python-list would be that type of forum?
>
> -Kevin
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 1, 2018, at 1:48 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
>
> Hi, Kevin! This mailing list is actually about the development *of*
> Python, not *with* it. To have a discussion about GUI programming with
> Python is probably python-list is a better place to discuss this.
>
> On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 10:37 Kevin Kowitski via Python-Dev <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hey Everyone!
>>
>>I am new to this mailing list. I have experience with software
>> development in the medical device industry and SaaS technology solutions. I
>> have primarily worked with R, Java, and various unique and specific machine
>> languages, but I have recently picked up Python.
>>Part of what has brought me to this mailing list was my search for
>> insights on Python’s usability as a shareable, executable, desktop
>> application. I often make tools for streamlining my professional tasks and
>> decided I wanted to give Python a try. I have read that there are some
>> fantastic GUI libraries and development environments, but how practical is
>> this language for distributing those programs in a nicely packaged exe?
>> If there is anyone here with some insight I would love to start off
>> my membership with a discussion and some knowledge sharing!
>>
>> Best,
>> Kevin
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ___
>> Python-Dev mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
>> Unsubscribe:
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/brett%40python.org
>>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Use of Cython

2018-09-01 Thread Stefan Behnel
Yury,

given that people are starting to quote enthusiastically the comments you
made below, let me set a couple of things straight.

Yury Selivanov schrieb am 07.08.2018 um 19:34:
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 11:49 AM Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev wrote:
> 
>> I have no strong opinion on using Cython for tests or in the stdlib, other 
>> than that it is a fairly large dependency.  I do think that adding a 
>> “Cython-lite” tool the CPython distribution would be less ideal, creating 
>> and maintaining that tool would be a lot of work without clear benefits over 
>> just using Cython.
> 
> Speaking of which, Dropbox is working on a new compiler they call "mypyc".
> 
> mypyc will compile type-annotated Python code to an optimized C.

That's their plan. Saying that "it will" is a bit premature at this point.
The list of failed attempts at writing static Python compilers is rather
long, even if you only count those that compile the usual "easy subset" of
Python.

I wish them the best of luck and endurance, but they have a long way to go.


> The
> first goal is to compile mypy with it to make it faster, so I hope
> that the project will be completed.

That's not "the first goal". It's the /only/ goal. The only intention of
mypyc is to be able to compile and optimise enough of Python to speed up
the kind or style of code that mypy uses.


> Essentially, mypyc will be similar
> to Cython, but mypyc is a *subset of Python*, not a superset.

Which is bad, right? It means that there will be many things that simply
don't work, and that you need to change your code in order to make it
compile at all. Cython is way beyond that point by now. Even RPython will
probably continue to be way better than mypyc for quite a while, maybe
forever, who knows.


> Interfacing with C libraries can be easily achieved with cffi.

Except that it will be fairly slow. cffi is not designed for static
analysis but for runtime operations. You can obviously also use cffi from
Cython – but then, why would you, if you can get much faster code much more
easily without using cffi?

That being said, if someone wants to write a static cffi optimiser for
Cython, why not, I'd be happy to help with my advice. The cool thing is
that this can be improved gradually, because compiling the cffi code
probably already works out of the box. It's just not (much) faster than
when interpreted.


> Being a
> strict subset of Python means that mypyc code will execute just fine
> in PyPy.

So does normal (non-subset) Python code. You can run it in PyPy, have
CPython interpret it, or compile it with Cython if you want it to run
faster in CPython, all without having to limit yourself to a subset of
Python. Seriously, you make this sound like requiring users to rewrite
their code to make it compilable with mypyc was a good thing.


> They can even apply some optimizations to it eventually, as
> it has a strict and static type system.

In case "they" refers to PyPy here, then I remember the PyPy project
stating very clearly that they are not interested in PEP-484 typing because
it is completely irrelevant for their JIT. It's really best for them to
ignore it.

That's similar for Cython, simply because PEP-484 typing isn't designed for
optimisation at all, definitely not for C-level optimisation. Still, Cython
can make some use of PEP-484 typing, if you use it to define specific C
types. That allows normal execution in CPython, static analysis with
PEP-484 analyser tools (e.g. PyCharm or mypy), and efficient optimisation
by Cython. The best of all worlds. See the docs on how to do that, it's
been supported for about a year now (and has been around in a similar,
non-PEP-484 form for years before that PEP even existed).


> I'd be more willing to start using mypyc+cffi in CPython stdlib
> *eventually*, than Cython now.  Cython is a relatively complex and
> still poorly documented language.

You are free to improve the documentation or otherwise help us find and
discuss concrete problems with it. Calling Cython a "poorly documented
language" could easily feel offensive towards those who have put a lot of
work into the documentation, wiki, tutorials, trainings and what not that
help people use the language. Even stack overflow is getting better and
better in documenting Cython these days, even though responses over there
that describe work-arounds tend to get outdated fairly quickly.

Besides, don't forget that it's Python, so consider reading the Python
documentation first if something is unclear. And maybe some documentation
of C data types as well. (.5 wink)


> I'm speaking from experience after
> writing thousands of lines of Cython in uvloop & asyncpg.  In skillful
> hands Cython is amazing, but I'd be cautious to advertise and use it
> in CPython.

Why not? You didn't actually give any reasons for that.


> I'm also -1 on using Cython to test C API. While writing C tests is
> annoying (I wrote a fair share myself), their very purpose is to make
> third-party tools/ex