Re: [Python-Dev] modernizing IDLE

2015-11-10 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 7 November 2015 at 03:08, Mark Roseman  wrote:
> Just wanted to share some documentation I’ve put together (and a snapshot of
> the code) on the effort to improve the appearance and behaviour of IDLE:
>
> http://www.tkdocs.com/tutorial/idle.html
>
> (There’s also currently a post on Hacker News about this).
>
> While Terry can better speak to plans and timelines about getting these
> changes integrated in, it seems a good time to get some other people to have
> a closer look and share any feedback.

Very cool! Thanks to all involved for these modernisation efforts :)

Regards,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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[Python-Dev] This isn't a question

2015-11-10 Thread Alec Kaija 
Sorry to bother anyone, but I just wanted to thank the Python community for
being awesome and for all of the ways you have all inspired/supported me
(mostly without even knowing it).

Thanks!


a
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Re: [Python-Dev] This isn't a question

2015-11-10 Thread Brett Cannon 
You're quite welcome! And thanks for taking the time to say "thanks". :)

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 11:35 Alec Kaija  wrote:

> Sorry to bother anyone, but I just wanted to thank the Python community
> for being awesome and for all of the ways you have all inspired/supported
> me (mostly without even knowing it).
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> a
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Re: [Python-Dev] This isn't a question

2015-11-10 Thread Emanuel Barry 
While I'm a part of the community, that wasn't always the case and it's very 
large, so I'll take this opportunity to come in and say a big thank you as well!

From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:09:37 +
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] This isn't a question

You're quite welcome! And thanks for taking the time to say "thanks". :)

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 11:35 Alec Kaija  wrote:
Sorry to bother anyone, but I just wanted to thank the Python community for 
being awesome and for all of the ways you have all inspired/supported me 
(mostly without even knowing it).
Thanks!

a
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Re: [Python-Dev] modernizing IDLE

2015-11-10 Thread Michiel Overtoom 

> On 06 Nov 2015, at 18:08, Mark Roseman  wrote:
> 
> (There’s also currently a post on Hacker News about this).

You have a link for that HN item? I've looked at the first five pages but 
couldn't find it.

Greetings,

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Re: [Python-Dev] modernizing IDLE

2015-11-10 Thread Ryan Gonzalez 
On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Michiel Overtoom  wrote:

>
> > On 06 Nov 2015, at 18:08, Mark Roseman  wrote:
> >
> > (There’s also currently a post on Hacker News about this).
>
> You have a link for that HN item? I've looked at the first five pages but
> couldn't find it.
>
>
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10519785

I used the big "Search" box at the bottom of the main Hacker News page. ;)


> Greetings,
>
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-- 
Ryan
[ERROR]: Your autotools build scripts are 200 lines longer than your
program. Something’s wrong.
http://kirbyfan64.github.io/
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Re: [Python-Dev] This isn't a question

2015-11-10 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 11 November 2015 at 04:09, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> You're quite welcome! And thanks for taking the time to say "thanks". :)

Indeed! Folks saying "Thank you" has a surprisingly big impact, since
our natural tendency is to spend time dwelling on all the things that
still need improvement :)

Regards,
Nick.

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Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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[Python-Dev] Request for pronouncement on PEP 493 (HTTPS verification backport guidance)

2015-11-10 Thread Nick Coghlan 
Hi folks,

I have a confession to make - I dropped the ball on the HTTPS
verification backport proposals in PEP 493, and let the upstream and
downstream approval processes get out of sequence.

As a result, the RHEL 7.2 beta released back in September incorporates
the HTTPS verification feature backport based on the current PEP 493
draft, even though that hasn't formally been pronounced as an Active
recommendation by python-dev yet.

Accordingly, I'm belatedly submitting it for pronouncement now:
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0493/

There's currently no BDFL-Delegate assigned, so if Guido doesn't want
to handle it, we'll need to address that question first.

Our last discussion back in July seemed to show that folks either
didn't care about the question (because they're using unmodified
upstream versions so the PEP didn't affect them), or else thought the
approach described in the PEP was reasonable, so I'm hoping the
consequences of my mistake won't be too severe.

Regards,
Nick.

P.S. I'm aware that this looks like presenting a fait accompli at a
point where it's too late to realistically say "No", but the truth is
that preparation for the Python in Education miniconf at PyCon
Australia ramped up immediately after the July discussion, and then I
personally got confused as to the scope of what was being included in
7.2 (I mistakenly thought it was just PEP 466 for now, with 476+493
being deferred to a later release, but it's actually the whole package
of 466+476+493). That's my fault for trying to keep track of too many
things at once (and thus failing at some of them), not anyone else's.



PEP: 493
Title: HTTPS verification recommendations for Python 2.7 redistributors
Version: $Revision$
Last-Modified: $Date$
Author: Nick Coghlan ,
Robert Kuska ,
Marc-André Lemburg 
Status: Draft
Type: Informational
Content-Type: text/x-rst
Created: 10-May-2015
Post-History: 06-Jul-2015


Abstract


PEP 476 updated Python's default handling of HTTPS certificates to be
appropriate for communication over the public internet. The Python 2.7 long
term maintenance series was judged to be in scope for this change, with the
new behaviour introduced in the Python 2.7.9 maintenance release.

This PEP provides recommendations to downstream redistributors wishing to
provide a smoother migration experience when helping their users to manage
this change in Python's default behaviour.


Rationale
=

PEP 476 changed Python's default behaviour to better match the needs and
expectations of developers operating over the public internet, a category
which appears to include most new Python developers. It is the position of
the authors of this PEP that this was a correct decision.

However, it is also the case that this change *does* cause problems for
infrastructure administrators operating private intranets that rely on
self-signed certificates, or otherwise encounter problems with the new default
certificate verification settings.

The long term answer for such environments is to update their internal
certificate management to at least match the standards set by the public
internet, but in the meantime, it is desirable to offer these administrators
a way to continue receiving maintenance updates to the Python 2.7 series,
without having to gate that on upgrades to their certificate management
infrastructure.

PEP 476 did attempt to address this question, by covering how to revert the
new settings process wide by monkeypatching the ``ssl`` module to restore the
old behaviour. Unfortunately, the ``sitecustomize.py`` based technique proposed
to allow system administrators to disable the feature by default in their
Standard Operating Environment definition has been determined to be
insufficient in at least some cases. The specific case of interest to the
authors of this PEP is the one where a Linux distributor aims to provide
their users with a
`smoother migration path
`__
than the standard one provided by consuming upstream CPython 2.7 releases
directly, but other potential challenges have also been pointed out with
updating embedded Python runtimes and other user level installations of Python.

Rather than allowing a plethora of mutually incompatibile migration techniques
to bloom, this PEP proposes two alternative approaches that redistributors
may take when addressing these problems. Redistributors may choose to implement
one, both, or neither of these approaches based on their assessment of the
needs of their particular userbase.

These designs are being proposed as a recommendation for redistributors, rather
than as new upstream features, as they are needed purely to support legacy
environments migrating from older versions of Python 2.7. Neither approach
is being proposed as an upstream Python 2.7 feature, nor as a feature in any
version of Python 3 (whether published directly by the Python Software
Foundation or

Re: [Python-Dev] modernizing IDLE

2015-11-10 Thread Michiel Overtoom 

> On 11 Nov 2015, at 00:23, Ryan Gonzalez  wrote:
> 
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10519785

Thanks for the URL.

I consider myself a reasonably seasoned IDE user, having used Visual Studio, 
emacs with SLIME, Borland C++Builder, Xcode, Delphi, Eclipse, LightTable and 
PyCharm, and probably I forgot some.

However, I still use IDLE regularly on Windows and Unix systems (not on OSX). I 
don't care much about advanced IDE features. Basically I want a programmers' 
text editor with minimal syntax highlighting and a shortcut key like F9 or 
CMD+R to run my program. When developing webapps, I rely on the 'save' function 
of the editor and having the web framework reload the sources automatically 
while in developer mode.  For debugging, I use Python's 'pdb' or the more 
fancier 'pudb' where appropriate.

I really like to see IDLE stay as part of the Python installation. And I'm 
sure, with all the attention it gets nowadays, that it'll stay a minimal but 
usable basic IDE for developing Python programs.

Greetings,
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