Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong wrote: > I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a > reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list: http://python3porting.com/differences.html > There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? > > If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as > xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform > syntax/library inclusion difference. > > If there is such reference available? I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point. //Lennart ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Discoverability of guides to Python 3 porting (was: 2.x vs 3.x survey results)
Lennart Regebro writes: > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong > wrote: > > If there is such reference available? > > I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a > free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge > on this point. John Yeuk Hon Wong, where did you look (unsuccessfully) for this information? Where, on the Python website, did you first expect to find this information and fail to find it? -- \ “If you do not trust the source do not use this program.” | `\—Microsoft Vista security dialogue | _o__) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Proposed: The Great Argument Clinic Conversion Derby
Let me start with a summary of the current status of Argument Clinic. It's checked in, it seems to be working fine. As of Friday I've checked in some reasonably complete documentation as a howto: http://docs.python.org/3.4/howto/clinic.html At last, here in beta 2, Argument Clinic is ready for prime time. What about adoption? That's where Argument Clinic has stalled. By my estimate, there are about six hundred places that could be converted to work with Argument Clinic in CPython; as of this writing only a dozen or two have actually been converted. Now, properly converting a function to work with Argument Clinic does not change its behavior. Internally, the code performing argument parsing should be nigh-identical; it should call the same PyArg_Parse function, with the same arguments, and the implementation should perform the same work as a result. The only externally observable change should be that inspect.signature() now produces a valid signature for the builtin; in all other respects Python should be unchanged. No documentation should have to change, no tests should need to be modified, and absolutely no code should be broken as a result. Converting a function to use Argument Clinic should be a blissfully low-risk procedure, and produce a pleasant, easier-to-maintain result. You see where I'm going with this. I am now, reluctantly, proposing that once 3.4.0b2 ships (should be later today), we the Python core development community roll up our collective sleeves and attempt to convert all the builtins to work with Argument Clinic. I call this "The Great Argument Clinic Conversion Derby". The rules of the derby: * The derby stops when RC 1 gets tagged, which should be January 18th. * I'll create issues on the issue tracker for converting each C file. * Participants will take ownership of an issue for a particular file, and have a couple of days to submit a patch. If an issue languishes I reserve the right to reassign it. * I pledge to be highly available and responsive during the derby. * I volunteer to convert posixmodule.c, which is about 60 functions (and therefore 10% of the workload). * I volunteer to review patches until my eyes bleed. I'd prefer to review every single conversion, though it's possible that isn't feasible, not sure. (Though I will have a /lot/ of time I can devote to this.) * I'll create a leader board where contributors are ranked by how many functions they've converted, if people want it, in an endeavor to spark interest and provide some bragging rights. Upsides: * Every builtins we convert is one more builtin with introspection information. It'd be nice to have that in 3.4. * Easier maintenance going forward. Downsides: * Someone could improperly convert a function, which could change the builtin's semantics and break code, and nobody notices and we ship the breakage in 3.4.0 final. I've discussed this with a number of other core developers; so far I've only gotten positive responses. Otherwise I wouldn't propose such madness. (Making changes to 600 different places in the Python tree? What am I thinking?) Keep in mind, this isn't "now or never"; the choice is between "convert now for 3.4" and "wait until after 3.4 final, then convert everything, and it'll ship in 3.5". We'll have this sooner or later--the question is, sooner? or later? What say you? +1? -1e100? Anxiously yours, /arry ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On 01/04/2014 08:20 PM, John Yeuk Hon Wong wrote: I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. Here's another reference: http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/imprint_downloads/informit/promotions/python/python2python3.pdf -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong > wrote: >> I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a >> reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. > > Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list: > > http://python3porting.com/differences.html > >> There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? >> >> If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as >> xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform >> syntax/library inclusion difference. >> >> If there is such reference available? > > I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a > free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge > on this point. I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the current state of things, versus asking people on "Hacker News". I constantly see people claiming they are stuck on Python 2 until NumPy, SciPy, and matplotlib are ported. Many of these people state they would love to use Python 3 if it weren't for those projects. However, those projects have all been ported -- and the first two have been available for several years now. The same goes for differences documents. I think 15 of us have written such documents, most of which cross-reference the other documents. Somehow very few people seem to know about any of them. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:23:45 -0600 Brian Curtin wrote: > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong > > wrote: > >> I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a > >> reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. > > > > Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list: > > > > http://python3porting.com/differences.html > > > >> There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? > >> > >> If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as > >> xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform > >> syntax/library inclusion difference. > >> > >> If there is such reference available? > > > > I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a > > free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge > > on this point. > > I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. > Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the > current state of things, versus asking people on "Hacker News". Perhaps there should be a porting guide as a prominent chapter in http://docs.python.org/3/ ? Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Fwd: 2.x vs 3.x survey results
-- Forwarded message -- From: Antoine Pitrou Date: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results To: [email protected] On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:23:45 -0600 Brian Curtin wrote: > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong > > wrote: > >> I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a > >> reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. > > > > Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list: > > > > http://python3porting.com/differences.html > > > >> There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? > >> > >> If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as > >> xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform > >> syntax/library inclusion difference. > >> > >> If there is such reference available? > > > > I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a > > free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge > > on this point. > > I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. > Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the > current state of things, versus asking people on "Hacker News". Perhaps there should be a porting guide as a prominent chapter in http://docs.python.org/3/ ? The (incognito) Google query "porting from python 2 to 3" pops up this as the first result: http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/pyporting.html 2nd place is the wiki.python.org page; 3 & 4 are from Lennart's book. So the SEO is fine, it seems - at least in this case. Similar queries provide similar results. If anyone comes up with a resonable query that gives bad results, we can do some lightweight SEO on it by adding a few links here and there. Eli ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Proposed: The Great Argument Clinic Conversion Derby
On 1/5/2014 11:21 AM, Larry Hastings wrote: Let me start with a summary of the current status of Argument Clinic. It's checked in, it seems to be working fine. As of Friday I've checked in some reasonably complete documentation as a howto: http://docs.python.org/3.4/howto/clinic.html At last, here in beta 2, Argument Clinic is ready for prime time. What about adoption? That's where Argument Clinic has stalled. By my estimate, there are about six hundred places that could be converted to work with Argument Clinic in CPython; as of this writing only a dozen or two have actually been converted. Do you remember which? I suggest builtin classes and functions as priorities. ... You see where I'm going with this. I am now, reluctantly, proposing that once 3.4.0b2 ships (should be later today), we the Python core development community roll up our collective sleeves and attempt to convert all the builtins to work with Argument Clinic. I will try to speed up my timetable for converting Idle calltips to using inspect.signature instead of the older functions. Does help (pydoc) already do so? -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] [RELEASE] libmpdec-2.4.0 (suitable for compiling _decimal)
Hi, I've released libmpdec-2.4.0, which can be used to compile _decimal with the "--with-system-libmpdec" configure option: http://www.bytereef.org/mpdecimal/download.html libmpdec-2.4.0 is exactly the same as the one in the CPython source tree. The API is stable and the libmpdec-2.x.y series will stay binary compatible [1]. Stefan Krah [1] Starting from 2.4.0: 2.4.0 is not binary compatible with 2.3. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Proposed: The Great Argument Clinic Conversion Derby
On 01/05/2014 11:49 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: On 1/5/2014 11:21 AM, Larry Hastings wrote: By my estimate, there are about six hundred places that could be converted to work with Argument Clinic in CPython; as of this writing only a dozen or two have actually been converted. Do you remember which? I suggest builtin classes and functions as priorities. I don't, but they're easy to find with UNIX shell tools: fgrep -l clinic */*.c I will try to speed up my timetable for converting Idle calltips to using inspect.signature instead of the older functions. Does help (pydoc) already do so? Yes. //arry/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Proposed: The Great Argument Clinic Conversion Derby
It looks interesting enough. I volunteer to convert at least the audioop, grp, operator, pwd, spw, sre, struct, tkinter modules (audioop already converted, tkinter in progress). If no one will get them, I perhaps will convert the builtins, sys, itertools, functools modules and str, bytes, bytearray, int objects. But I very much upset by the fact that the generated code is written mixed with written manually. It is difficult to navigate (list of symbols now contains three times more names), makes it difficult to read and provokes error (editing the generated code). It would be better if the generated code was written in separate files. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
On behalf of the Python development team, I'm pleased to announce the second beta release of Python 3.4. This is a preview release, and its use is not recommended for production settings. Python 3.4 includes a range of improvements of the 3.x series, including hundreds of small improvements and bug fixes. Major new features and changes in the 3.4 release series include: * PEP 428, a "pathlib" module providing object-oriented filesystem paths * PEP 435, a standardized "enum" module * PEP 436, a build enhancement that will help generate introspection information for builtins * PEP 442, improved semantics for object finalization * PEP 443, adding single-dispatch generic functions to the standard library * PEP 445, a new C API for implementing custom memory allocators * PEP 446, changing file descriptors to not be inherited by default in subprocesses * PEP 450, a new "statistics" module * PEP 451, standardizing module metadata for Python's module import system * PEP 453, a bundled installer for the *pip* package manager * PEP 454, a new "tracemalloc" module for tracing Python memory allocations * PEP 456, a new hash algorithm for Python strings and binary data * PEP 3154, a new and improved protocol for pickled objects * PEP 3156, a new "asyncio" module, a new framework for asynchronous I/O Python 3.4 is now in "feature freeze", meaning that no new features will be added. The final release is projected for late February 2014. To download Python 3.4.0b2 visit: http://www.python.org/download/releases/3.4.0/ Please consider trying Python 3.4.0b2 with your code and reporting any new issues you notice to: http://bugs.python.org/ Enjoy! -- Larry Hastings, Release Manager larry at hastings.org (on behalf of the entire python-dev team and 3.4's contributors) ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Proposed: The Great Argument Clinic Conversion Derby
On 01/05/2014 01:49 PM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: But I very much upset by the fact that the generated code is written mixed with written manually. It is difficult to navigate (list of symbols now contains three times more names), makes it difficult to read and provokes error (editing the generated code). It would be better if the generated code was written in separate files. I had that working at one point. Guido said no, keep it all in one file. I'm flexible but first you'd have to convince him. Cheers, //arry/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Proposed: The Great Argument Clinic Conversion Derby
On 6 Jan 2014 05:54, "Larry Hastings" wrote: > > On 01/05/2014 01:49 PM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: >> >> But I very much upset by the fact that the generated code is written mixed with written manually. It is difficult to navigate (list of symbols now contains three times more names), makes it difficult to read and provokes error (editing the generated code). It would be better if the generated code was written in separate files. > > > I had that working at one point. Guido said no, keep it all in one file. I'm flexible but first you'd have to convince him. It's also not something we're stuck with forever - we can start with it inline (which has the advantage of keeping all the code in the same place), and later move to having the helpers in a separate file included from the implementation file if we decide it makes sense to do so. This was discussed a fair bit last language summit (and the day after between me, Guido and Larry), and the thing I like about the current approach is that a C coder should be able to understand the generated code *as C code* without needing to know anything about Argument Clinic and without needing to hunt through other files to find where the generated pieces are defined. As Terry noted, even if we just get "help(name)" working properly for the builtins, I'll count that as a major win. Cheers, Nick. > > Cheers, > > > /arry > > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ncoghlan%40gmail.com > ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Proposed: The Great Argument Clinic Conversion Derby
Nick Coghlan wrote: > > I had that working at one point. Guido said no, keep it all in one file. > > I'm flexible but first you'd have to convince him. > > It's also not something we're stuck with forever - we can start with it inline > (which has the advantage of keeping all the code in the same place), and later > move to having the helpers in a separate file included from the implementation > file if we decide it makes sense to do so. If we move big chunks of code around twice, I guess "hg blame" will break twice, too. That is another thing worth considering. I agree with Serhiy, but that is probably known at this point. :) Stefan Krah ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 13:20:50 -0800, Larry Hastings wrote: > On behalf of the Python development team, I'm pleased to announce > the second beta release of Python 3.4. Thanks, Larry and all the devs, your hard work is appreciated. However, why does this new version look like adware or other malware when installing? This is the first time I ever installed a version of Python which caused something called "MSIEXEC.EXE" to try to access some commercial dot-com site. Naturally, my firewall stopped it, but what's going on? (A "command prompt" Windows box opened, followed by my firewall firing off a set of warnings about having blocked attempted unauthorized outbound connections to blah-blah-blah-dot-com.) When I attempted to run the python interpreter it appeared to open normally, but I haven't tried doing anything with it. If this has to do with "ensure_pip" or whatever it's called, perhaps some other solution is called for which is more user-friendly and not as likely to incite unease and mistrust by attempting to silently access a commercial site while Python is installing. At the very least a warning seems to be called for (possibly along with an opt-out). Also, a more friendly site (python.org?) to connect to would help to restore some faith. If it *is* about the pip thing, I can only imagine the frustration of Window users: Having to reconfigure firewalls to (properly?) upgrade Python, or ignoring the firewall-warning "glitch" assuming it's okay. Or, possibly, a silent failure of "something" if they're firewalled with warnings turned off? If it's not pip, what is it? Finally, is my install now broken? Are offline installs now not possible. Does one now need an always-on internet connection to use Python? Thanks -- Bob Hanson -- Snowden reveals that George Orwell was an extreme optimist. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
-- Regards, Benjamin On Sun, Jan 5, 2014, at 04:19 PM, Bob Hanson wrote: > On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 13:20:50 -0800, Larry Hastings wrote: > > > On behalf of the Python development team, I'm pleased to announce > > the second beta release of Python 3.4. > > Thanks, Larry and all the devs, your hard work is appreciated. > > However, why does this new version look like adware or other > malware when installing? > > This is the first time I ever installed a version of Python which > caused something called "MSIEXEC.EXE" to try to access some > commercial dot-com site. > > Naturally, my firewall stopped it, but what's going on? > > (A "command prompt" Windows box opened, followed by my firewall > firing off a set of warnings about having blocked attempted > unauthorized outbound connections to blah-blah-blah-dot-com.) Well, what is blah-blah-blah.com exactly? > > When I attempted to run the python interpreter it appeared to > open normally, but I haven't tried doing anything with it. > > If this has to do with "ensure_pip" or whatever it's called, > perhaps some other solution is called for which is more > user-friendly and not as likely to incite unease and mistrust by > attempting to silently access a commercial site while Python is > installing. At the very least a warning seems to be called for > (possibly along with an opt-out). Also, a more friendly site > (python.org?) to connect to would help to restore some faith. > > If it *is* about the pip thing, I can only imagine the > frustration of Window users: Having to reconfigure firewalls to > (properly?) upgrade Python, or ignoring the firewall-warning > "glitch" assuming it's okay. Or, possibly, a silent failure of > "something" if they're firewalled with warnings turned off? > > If it's not pip, what is it? > > Finally, is my install now broken? Are offline installs now not > possible. Does one now need an always-on internet connection to > use Python? > > Thanks -- > > Bob Hanson > > -- > Snowden reveals that George Orwell was an extreme optimist. > > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/benjamin%40python.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: 2.x vs 3.x survey results
I'm sure that the main problem is that people don't search. Surprisingly, it's often easier to complain "there is no X" than to try to search for a solution to X. On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 8:16 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote: > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Antoine Pitrou > Date: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 9:32 AM > Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results > To: [email protected] > > > On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:23:45 -0600 > Brian Curtin wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: >> > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong >> > wrote: >> >> I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a >> >> reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. >> > >> > Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list: >> > >> > http://python3porting.com/differences.html >> > >> >> There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of >> >> references? >> >> >> >> If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as >> >> xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform >> >> syntax/library inclusion difference. >> >> >> >> If there is such reference available? >> > >> > I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a >> > free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge >> > on this point. >> >> I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. >> Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the >> current state of things, versus asking people on "Hacker News". > > Perhaps there should be a porting guide as a prominent chapter in > http://docs.python.org/3/ ? > > The (incognito) Google query "porting from python 2 to 3" pops up this as > the first result: > > http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/pyporting.html > > 2nd place is the wiki.python.org page; 3 & 4 are from Lennart's book. > > So the SEO is fine, it seems - at least in this case. Similar queries > provide similar results. If anyone comes up with a resonable query that > gives bad results, we can do some lightweight SEO on it by adding a few > links here and there. > > Eli > > > > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/guido%40python.org > -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
[Benjamin Peterson] > ... > This is the first time I ever installed a version of Python which > caused something called "MSIEXEC.EXE" msiexec.exe is not part of the Python download.. msiexec.exe is part of the Windows operating system, and is precisely the program that installs .msi files (which the Python installer is). > to try to access some commercial dot-com site. > > Naturally, my firewall stopped it, but what's going on? Possible: you have a virus or trojan that replaced the system msiexec.exe with its own malware. Run a full virus scan ASAP, try Malwarebyte's anti-malware program, etc etc etc. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
[Bob Hanson] > > This is the first time I ever installed a version of Python which > > caused something called "MSIEXEC.EXE" [Tim Peters] > msiexec.exe is not part of the Python download.. msiexec.exe is part > of the Windows operating system, and is precisely the program that > installs .msi files (which the Python installer is). That is correct. ;-) [Bob Hanson] > > to try to access some commercial dot-com site. > > > > Naturally, my firewall stopped it, but what's going on? [Tim Peters] > Possible: you have a virus or trojan that replaced the system > msiexec.exe with its own malware. Run a full virus scan ASAP, try > Malwarebyte's anti-malware program, etc etc etc. Didn't think this likely, but I have now quintuple-checked everything again. Everything says I have the real McCoy msiexec.exe in its proper location -- just upgraded another app which used MSI installers and it went as per normal. I'm presuming, still, that it is something to do with the "ensure that pip is present on Windows" thing? [See the bottom of my original post.] Do Nick or Martin (or other dev) have any comments? Bob Hanson -- Sent from my Smart shoephone. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
[Bob Hanson] > ... > Didn't think this likely, but I have now quintuple-checked > everything again. Everything says I have the real McCoy > msiexec.exe in its proper location -- just upgraded another app > which used MSI installers and it went as per normal. That sounds most likely to me too ;-) > I'm presuming, still, that it is something to do with the "ensure > that pip is present on Windows" thing? [See the bottom of my > original post.] As Benjamin asked, could you please flesh out what "blah-blah-blah-dot-com" means - what, exactly, was the site your firewall warned you about? My firewall didn't complain when I installed 3.4.0b2 on Windows. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
On 01/05/2014 06:02 PM, Bob Hanson wrote: I'm presuming, still, that it is something to do with the "ensure that pip is present on Windows" thing? Perhaps you could help us out by telling us what site was trying to be accessed? -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 20:09:23 -0600, Tim Peters wrote: > As Benjamin asked, could you please flesh out what > "blah-blah-blah-dot-com" means - what, exactly, was the site your > firewall warned you about? Forgive me, but I'm an old man with very poor vision. Using my magnifying glass, I see it is two very long URLs ending with something like after the blah-blah: < ... akametechnology.com> More precisely, these two IP addresses: 23.59.190.113:80 23.59.190.106:80 > My firewall didn't complain when I installed 3.4.0b2 on Windows. I don't use the Windows firewall, and I have mine sent to block all apps connecting in or out unless I make specific rules for them. I have never authorized C:/Windows/System32/msiexec.exe to connect in or out (and it didn't ;-) ). Bob Hanson ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
[Bob Hanson] > Forgive me, but I'm an old man with very poor vision. Using my > magnifying glass, I see it is two very long URLs ending with > something like after the blah-blah: < ... akametechnology.com> > > More precisely, these two IP addresses: > 23.59.190.113:80 > 23.59.190.106:80 So: C:\Code>ping -a 23.59.190.113 Pinging a23-59-190-113.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [23.59.190.113] with 32 bytes of data: ... C:\Code>ping -a 23.59.190.106 Pinging a23-59-190-106.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [23.59.190.106] with 32 bytes of data: So it's just Akamai caching content. Common as mud. Can't say specifically what was being cached, but it _could_ be that your ISP contracts with Akamai. >> My firewall didn't complain when I installed 3.4.0b2 on Windows. > I don't use the Windows firewall, and I have mine sent to block > all apps connecting in or out unless I make specific rules for > them. I have never authorized C:/Windows/System32/msiexec.exe to > connect in or out (and it didn't ;-) ). Same here on both counts. We're getting nowhere with admirable speed ;-) ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 21:09:53 -0600, Tim Peters wrote: > [Bob Hanson] > > Forgive me, but I'm an old man with very poor vision. Using my > > magnifying glass, I see it is two very long URLs ending with > > something like after the blah-blah: < ... akametechnology.com> > > > > More precisely, these two IP addresses: > > 23.59.190.113:80 > > 23.59.190.106:80 > > So: > > C:\Code>ping -a 23.59.190.113 > > Pinging a23-59-190-113.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com > [23.59.190.113] with 32 bytes of data: > > [...] > > So it's just Akamai caching content. Common as mud. Can't say > specifically what was being cached, but it _could_ be that your ISP > contracts with Akamai. Still not following *why* this should be happening. I was installing from my harddrive -- nothing needed to be cached as far as I was concerned. Indeed, I would normally think I could install while offline -- and often do on my PCs which are "air-gapped." Still wondering why, all of a sudden after years of using a firewalled msiexec.exe, I get it now trying to connect out while installing 3.4.0b2 from my harddrive...? > > > My firewall didn't complain when I installed 3.4.0b2 on Windows. > > > I don't use the Windows firewall, and I have mine sent to block > > all apps connecting in or out unless I make specific rules for > > them. I have never authorized C:/Windows/System32/msiexec.exe to > > connect in or out (and it didn't ;-) ). > > Same here on both counts. We're getting nowhere with admirable speed ;-) So, we just need to make some distance -- our speed is good? ;-) Less non-seriously, thanks for all the help, Tim (and others) -- Bob Hanson ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 19:32:15 -0800, Bob Hanson wrote: > On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 21:09:53 -0600, Tim Peters wrote: > > So it's just Akamai caching content. Common as mud. Can't say > > specifically what was being cached, but it _could_ be that your ISP > > contracts with Akamai. > > Still not following *why* this should be happening. I was > installing from my harddrive -- nothing needed to be cached as > far as I was concerned. Indeed, I would normally think I could > install while offline -- and often do on my PCs which are > "air-gapped." > > Still wondering why, all of a sudden after years of using a > firewalled msiexec.exe, I get it now trying to connect out while > installing 3.4.0b2 from my harddrive...? The ensurepip developers will have to say for sure, but my understanding is that it does *not* go out to the network. On the other hand, it is conceivable that pip 1.5, unlike the earlier version in Beta1, is doing some sort of "up to date check" that it shouldn't be doing in the ensurepip scenario. I presume you did have the installer install pip. If you haven't already, You might try reinstalling and unchecking that option, and see if it msiexec still tries to go out to the network. That would confirm it is ensurepip that is the issue (although that does seem most likely). --David ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
ensurepip uses —no-index so it shouldn’t be hitting the network at all. On Jan 5, 2014, at 11:06 PM, R. David Murray wrote: > On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 19:32:15 -0800, Bob Hanson wrote: >> On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 21:09:53 -0600, Tim Peters wrote: >>> So it's just Akamai caching content. Common as mud. Can't say >>> specifically what was being cached, but it _could_ be that your ISP >>> contracts with Akamai. >> >> Still not following *why* this should be happening. I was >> installing from my harddrive -- nothing needed to be cached as >> far as I was concerned. Indeed, I would normally think I could >> install while offline -- and often do on my PCs which are >> "air-gapped." >> >> Still wondering why, all of a sudden after years of using a >> firewalled msiexec.exe, I get it now trying to connect out while >> installing 3.4.0b2 from my harddrive...? > > The ensurepip developers will have to say for sure, but my understanding > is that it does *not* go out to the network. On the other hand, it is > conceivable that pip 1.5, unlike the earlier version in Beta1, is doing > some sort of "up to date check" that it shouldn't be doing in the > ensurepip scenario. > > I presume you did have the installer install pip. If you haven't > already, You might try reinstalling and unchecking that option, and see > if it msiexec still tries to go out to the network. That would confirm > it is ensurepip that is the issue (although that does seem most likely). > > --David > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/donald%40stufft.io - Donald Stufft PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
Bob Hanson writes: > On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 20:09:23 -0600, Tim Peters wrote: > > > As Benjamin asked, could you please flesh out what > > "blah-blah-blah-dot-com" means - what, exactly, was the site your > > firewall warned you about? > > Forgive me, but I'm an old man with very poor vision. Using my > magnifying glass, I see it is two very long URLs ending with > something like after the blah-blah: < ... akametechnology.com> I suppose you tried cutting and pasting? Note that you don't need to be exact as long as you're pretty sure you got the whole thing -- your readers who have better eyesight can parse out the URL easily enough. > More precisely, these two IP addresses: > 23.59.190.113:80 > 23.59.190.106:80 Somebody who doesn't know the rules of capitalization (see ww1.akamitechnologies.com) appears to be spoofing Akamai (the web caching/distribution service used by President Obama among other prominent users). The domain referenced is presumably some variation on .deploy.static.akamitechnologies.com (according to host ), and the long URL is rooted at /ses/ so it's trying to convince you it's a session (whether that is actually true or not I don't know, that's just what I would guess if I were trying to reverse engineer an honest URL, which this sure doesn't seem to be). So your alarm seems to be verified, but why this happened to a Python download I don't know. It could be DNS hacking between you and python.org, as well as something in the Python MSI. HTH Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
[Bob Hanson] >> ... magnifying glass, I see it is two very long URLs ending with >> something like after the blah-blah: < ... akametechnology.com> [Stephen J. Turnbull] > I suppose you tried cutting and pasting? Note that you don't need to > be exact as long as you're pretty sure you got the whole thing -- your > readers who have better eyesight can parse out the URL easily enough. I don't think this was cut 'n paste. Looking up the IP addresses returns legit Akamai URLs: >> More precisely, these two IP addresses: >> 23.59.190.113:80 >> 23.59.190.106:80 C:\Code>ping -a 23.59.190.113 Pinging a23-59-190-113.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [23.59.190.113] with 32 bytes of data: ... C:\Code>ping -a 23.59.190.106 Pinging a23-59-190-106.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [23.59.190.106] with 32 bytes of data: ... Bob's "< ... akametechnology.com>" just looks like compounded typos. > ... > So your alarm seems to be verified, but why this happened to a Python > download I don't know. It could be DNS hacking between you and > python.org, as well as something in the Python MSI. Honestly, for all we _know_, this firewall alert may have been triggered by some other program that just happened to wake up while Bob was installing Python. Sure, that's unlikely. But so is everything else about this ;-) ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
On 06.01.2014 05:12, Donald Stufft wrote: ensurepip uses —no-index so it shouldn’t be hitting the network at all. Do you have a test to ensure that ensurepip doesn't try to use network connections? You could e.g. mock socket.create_connection() and socket.socket() in a custom socket module. The subprocess makes it a little bit more complicated to test its behavior. Christian ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 23:54:41 -0600, Tim Peters wrote: [Bob Hanson] > >> ... magnifying glass, I see it is two very long URLs ending with > >> something like after the blah-blah: < ... akametechnology.com> [Stephen J. Turnbull] > > I suppose you tried cutting and pasting? [...] Tried, but was unsuccessful. [Tim Peters] > I don't think this was cut 'n paste. Looking up the IP addresses > returns legit Akamai URLs: > > [...] > > C:\Code>ping -a 23.59.190.113 > > Pinging a23-59-190-113.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com > [23.59.190.113] with 32 bytes of data: > ... > C:\Code>ping -a 23.59.190.106 > > Pinging a23-59-190-106.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com > [23.59.190.106] with 32 bytes of data: > ... > > Bob's "< ... akametechnology.com>" just looks like compounded typos. Typos or blindos. ;-) Took a screenshot just now and zoomed in -- I can now verify that the URLs are as Tim has 'em above. [Stephen J. Turnbull] > > So your alarm seems to be verified, but why this happened to a Python > > download I don't know. It could be DNS hacking between you and > > python.org, as well as something in the Python MSI. [Tim Peters] > Honestly, for all we _know_, this firewall alert may have been > triggered by some other program that just happened to wake up while > Bob was installing Python. Sure, that's unlikely. But so is > everything else about this ;-) Unlikely as the firewall alert has the full correct path for *msiexec.exe*. I also keep tabs on all processes running, watch my firewall routinely, etc. And -- I'm almost paranoid enough to be a computer security guy. ;-) Wanted to add this tiny bit of info, but now I need to retire for the night. I'll check further on things in the morning. Bob Hanson ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Python 2.7 root buildbot showing errors
The first build my new root buildbot did showed errors in the 2.7 test
suite, but I thought little of it as quite a few other 2.7 buildbots
are showing red, too. But it seems they're showing different errors,
so there might be something wrong with the setup.
http://buildbot.python.org/all/builders/AMD64%20Debian%20root%202.7/builds/3/steps/test/logs/stdio
First off, it's complaining about being unable to build _curses
(lacking curses.h). Is that a mandatory prereq that I should install,
or should Python be compatible with not having it?
Then further down, several SSL tests attempt:
s.connect_ex(("svn.python.org", 444)))
and get back EAGAIN when they're expecting ECONNREFUSED. Possibly my
firewall's delaying things somewhat and it's timing out with a signal;
when I try manually, the connection times out.
Are these failures a problem? Should they be fixed? The 3.x builds are
all coming up green.
ChrisA
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Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.0b2
Stephen J. Turnbull writes: > .deploy.static.akamitechnologies.com (according to host ), Ignore this; *my* aging eyes dropped the "A" in "akamAitechnologies.com". Sorry for the noise. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
