Re: [Python-Dev] Getting Tulip (PEP 3156) into the 3.4 stdlib, marked provisional, named asyncio

2013-09-30 Thread Simon Cross 
On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 1:51 AM, Larry Hastings  wrote:
> My guess is, a lot of people would be disappointed if Tulip missed 3.4.  I
> suspect the community would rather we slip the beta a little if it meant it
> the difference between Tulip and no Tulip.

+1
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

2013-09-30 Thread Martin v. Löwis 
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Am 25.09.13 23:33, schrieb Donald Stufft:
> An early draft of this did not have the backport to 2.7 and when I
> showed *that* version around to get feedback people were less
> enthusiastic about it and generally viewed it as "nice but
> worthless to me for N years".

I'm leaning towards the people that oppose addition of this feature to
older Python releases. In particular, the objection that the new PEP is
worthless for a long time to come, is in itself not really relevant:

It is always the case that features proposed by a PEP reach users only
years after they have been implemented.

> What users want isn't rationale in and of itself but I think it's
> an important data point, especially given how long 2.7.LASTEVER is
> going to be relevant to end users.

Well, I really really don't like this idea. 2.7 should not get new
features; users who want new features need to switch to 3.x.

Regards,
Martin


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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

2013-09-30 Thread Donald Stufft 

On Sep 30, 2013, at 5:01 AM, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:

> Signed PGP part
> Am 25.09.13 23:33, schrieb Donald Stufft:
> > An early draft of this did not have the backport to 2.7 and when I
> > showed *that* version around to get feedback people were less
> > enthusiastic about it and generally viewed it as "nice but
> > worthless to me for N years".
> 
> I'm leaning towards the people that oppose addition of this feature to
> older Python releases. In particular, the objection that the new PEP is
> worthless for a long time to come, is in itself not really relevant:
> 
> It is always the case that features proposed by a PEP reach users only
> years after they have been implemented.

Well the point we tried to get across in the PEP is that a normal feature
you can typically just install a backport from PyPI to gain it early. This
isin't so much driven by "well it'd be nice for the stdlib to have X", but
"well this is a real and valid pain point that causes pain for a lot of users".
The 2.7 backport was driven by just how painful this particular pain point
can be. I've personally had feedback that in tutorials at like PyCon or
meet ups that easily 1/3 of the time can be spent in getting users setup
with Python, setuptools, and pip.

Obviously you're the delegate for this PEP and it's your final decision and
either way If the PEP is accepted I'll do the implementation for 3.4.

> 
> > What users want isn't rationale in and of itself but I think it's
> > an important data point, especially given how long 2.7.LASTEVER is
> > going to be relevant to end users.
> 
> Well, I really really don't like this idea. 2.7 should not get new
> features; users who want new features need to switch to 3.x.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin
> 
> 


-
Donald Stufft
PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA



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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

2013-09-30 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 30 Sep 2013 19:03, Martin v. Löwis  wrote:
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 25.09.13 23:33, schrieb Donald Stufft:
> > An early draft of this did not have the backport to 2.7 and when I
> > showed *that* version around to get feedback people were less
> > enthusiastic about it and generally viewed it as "nice but
> > worthless to me for N years".
>
> I'm leaning towards the people that oppose addition of this feature to
> older Python releases. In particular, the objection that the new PEP is
> worthless for a long time to come, is in itself not really relevant:
>
> It is always the case that features proposed by a PEP reach users only
> years after they have been implemented.
>
> > What users want isn't rationale in and of itself but I think it's
> > an important data point, especially given how long 2.7.LASTEVER is
> > going to be relevant to end users.
>
> Well, I really really don't like this idea. 2.7 should not get new
> features; users who want new features need to switch to 3.x.

Before you make your final decision on this front, I'd like to record in
the PEP my fallback plan for if the backporting portion of the PEP is
rejected while the rest is accepted. After all, you should know what it is
you're actually choosing between.

I just need to run the details of the fallback proposal past Donald before
publishing it under both our names.

Regards,
Nick.

>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

2013-09-30 Thread Martin v. Löwis 
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Am 30.09.13 13:18, schrieb Donald Stufft:
> Well the point we tried to get across in the PEP is that a normal
> feature you can typically just install a backport from PyPI to gain
> it early. This isin't so much driven by "well it'd be nice for the
> stdlib to have X", but "well this is a real and valid pain point
> that causes pain for a lot of users".

I see it exactly vice versa. A normal new language feature, you *cannot*
get early from PyPI, e.g. if it's a syntax extension (e.g. the with
statement). OTOH, *this* particular feature you can easily get from
PyPI - just download and run the PIP installer.

> The 2.7 backport was driven by just how painful this particular
> pain point can be. I've personally had feedback that in tutorials
> at like PyCon or meet ups that easily 1/3 of the time can be spent
> in getting users setup with Python, setuptools, and pip.

I'm sure there is something that can be done about it. What operating
system are people using who have difficulties to set this all up?

I see that pip doesn't have a Windows installer on PyPI. That looks
like the real culprit to me. I'd be willing to work with you to
provide one (that ideally bundles all dependencies).

> Obviously you're the delegate for this PEP and it's your final
> decision and either way If the PEP is accepted I'll do the
> implementation for 3.4.

The backporting is the main stumbling block. Otherwise, I'm in favor
of the PEP.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

2013-09-30 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 30 Sep 2013 21:52, Martin v. Löwis  wrote:
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 30.09.13 13:18, schrieb Donald Stufft:
> > Well the point we tried to get across in the PEP is that a normal
> > feature you can typically just install a backport from PyPI to gain
> > it early. This isin't so much driven by "well it'd be nice for the
> > stdlib to have X", but "well this is a real and valid pain point
> > that causes pain for a lot of users".
>
> I see it exactly vice versa. A normal new language feature, you *cannot*
> get early from PyPI, e.g. if it's a syntax extension (e.g. the with
> statement).

It's standard library improvements (like SSL hostname matching) that are
relevant to this comparison, rather than the kinds of changes that were
barred by the language moratorium.

> OTOH, *this* particular feature you can easily get from
> PyPI - just download and run the PIP installer.
>
> > The 2.7 backport was driven by just how painful this particular
> > pain point can be. I've personally had feedback that in tutorials
> > at like PyCon or meet ups that easily 1/3 of the time can be spent
> > in getting users setup with Python, setuptools, and pip.
>
> I'm sure there is something that can be done about it. What operating
> system are people using who have difficulties to set this all up?
>
> I see that pip doesn't have a Windows installer on PyPI. That looks
> like the real culprit to me. I'd be willing to work with you to
> provide one (that ideally bundles all dependencies).

We'll take you up on that offer. Windows is the main problem, since other
platforms offer wget/curl out of the box so bootstrapping is easy by
comparison.

>
> > Obviously you're the delegate for this PEP and it's your final
> > decision and either way If the PEP is accepted I'll do the
> > implementation for 3.4.
>
> The backporting is the main stumbling block. Otherwise, I'm in favor
> of the PEP.

My plan now is to split the PEP in two, so the 3.4 changes can be accepted
as non-controversial, including the offer of core dev assistance in
creating and maintaining a Windows installer for pip to better support
earlier versions. The backporting PEP will be deferred, for reconsideration
some time in the future after the initial PEP has been implemented.

Regards,
Nick.

>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
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[Python-Dev] Semi-official read-only Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository

2013-09-30 Thread Eli Bendersky 
Hi all,

https://github.com/python/cpython is now live as a semi-official, *read
only* Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository. Let me know if you
have any problems/concerns.

I still haven't decided how often to update it (considering either just N
times a day, or maybe use a Hg hook for batching). Suggestions are welcome.

The methodology I used to create it is via hg-fast-export. I also tried to
pack and gc the git repo as much as possible before the initial Github push
- it went down from almost ~2GB to ~200MB (so this is the size of a fresh
clone right now).

Eli

P.S. thanks Jesse for the keys to https://github.com/python
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Re: [Python-Dev] Semi-official read-only Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository

2013-09-30 Thread Donald Stufft 

On Sep 30, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Eli Bendersky  wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> https://github.com/python/cpython is now live as a semi-official, *read only* 
> Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository. Let me know if you have 
> any problems/concerns.
> 
> I still haven't decided how often to update it (considering either just N 
> times a day, or maybe use a Hg hook for batching). Suggestions are welcome.
> 
> The methodology I used to create it is via hg-fast-export. I also tried to 
> pack and gc the git repo as much as possible before the initial Github push - 
> it went down from almost ~2GB to ~200MB (so this is the size of a fresh clone 
> right now).
> 
> Eli
> 
> P.S. thanks Jesse for the keys to https://github.com/python
> 
> 
> 
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Awesome! I find Github way nicer for reading source than hg.python.org's web 
interface, any chance I could convince you to do this for the peps repo too? ;)

-
Donald Stufft
PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA



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Re: [Python-Dev] Semi-official read-only Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository

2013-09-30 Thread Eli Bendersky 
>
> https://github.com/python/cpython is now live as a semi-official, *read
> only* Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository. Let me know if you
> have any problems/concerns.
>
> I still haven't decided how often to update it (considering either just N
> times a day, or maybe use a Hg hook for batching). Suggestions are welcome.
>
> The methodology I used to create it is via hg-fast-export. I also tried to
> pack and gc the git repo as much as possible before the initial Github push
> - it went down from almost ~2GB to ~200MB (so this is the size of a fresh
> clone right now).
>
> Eli
>
> P.S. thanks Jesse for the keys to https://github.com/python
>
>
>
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>
>
> Awesome! I find Github way nicer for reading source than hg.python.org's
> web interface, any chance I could convince you to do this for the peps repo
> too? ;)
>

Yes, that shouldn't pose a problem. I'll let it hum for a couple of days
just to see everything is OK and then I'll add peps too.

Eli
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

2013-09-30 Thread Barry Warsaw 
On Sep 30, 2013, at 11:07 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:

>My plan now is to split the PEP in two, so the 3.4 changes can be accepted
>as non-controversial, including the offer of core dev assistance in
>creating and maintaining a Windows installer for pip to better support
>earlier versions. The backporting PEP will be deferred, for reconsideration
>some time in the future after the initial PEP has been implemented.

+1, since I think there's little disagreement about adding this to 3.4.

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] Semi-official read-only Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository

2013-09-30 Thread Skip Montanaro 
> https://github.com/python/cpython is now live as a semi-official, *read
> only* Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository. Let me know if you
> have any problems/concerns.

Thanks for this, Eli. I use git regularly at work, so I'm getting much
more comfortable with it. Do you have a suggested workflow for people
who might want to use Git in preference to Hg, but still have write
access?

Skip
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

2013-09-30 Thread Skip Montanaro 
Splitting into two pieces also means you can implement it for 3.4
first and identify possible problems caused by preexisting pip
installs before deciding whether to add it to 2.7 and 3.3.

Skip
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

2013-09-30 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 1 October 2013 00:35, Skip Montanaro  wrote:
> Splitting into two pieces also means you can implement it for 3.4
> first and identify possible problems caused by preexisting pip
> installs before deciding whether to add it to 2.7 and 3.3.

One of the key reasons for using the bootstrap mechanism rather than
just bundling pip is so that the installers for maintenance releases
won't have any more trouble with pre-existing installs of pip than pip
itself does :)

But yes, there are several advantages to splitting the PEP:

- the Python 3.4 changes are non-controversial, so it makes sense to
get them officially accepted
- the Python 3.4 beta deadline is closer than the deadlines for the
3.3.3 and 2.7.6 maintenance releases
- it allows the full extent of the changes proposed for backporting to
be clear prior to the reconsideration of the separated PEP
- a Windows installer for pip could be made available well in advance
of the 3.3.3 and 2.7.6 maintenance releases
- it allows a chance to see if a separate Windows installer for pip
and documenting the bootstrapping instructions in the "Installing
Python Modules" guide for older releases is sufficient to get new
users over the "getting started with PyPI" barrier

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] Semi-official read-only Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository

2013-09-30 Thread Eli Bendersky 
On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Skip Montanaro  wrote:

> > https://github.com/python/cpython is now live as a semi-official, *read
> > only* Github mirror of the CPython Mercurial repository. Let me know if
> you
> > have any problems/concerns.
>
> Thanks for this, Eli. I use git regularly at work, so I'm getting much
> more comfortable with it. Do you have a suggested workflow for people
> who might want to use Git in preference to Hg, but still have write
> access?
>

Petri Lehtinen runs a clone at https://github.com/akheron/cpython which
uses more advanced tricks like hg-git and his own git-hg wrapper to allow
him to do this, AFAIK. If this path is important for you, contact Petri and
he can provide guidance on how to set it up.

For python/cpython I really wanted the simplest flow to reach a read-only
stage, because I lack the necessary git/hg-fu to set up and maintain
something more complex "semi-officially". I think the most common workflow
is to do small changes vs. Mercurial anyway. When I'm working on
longer-term patches I do them in my Git mirror (because I prefer Git
branching) and then apply & test patches onto a Mercurial R/W clone before
committing.

Thus, for most users I think the read-only mirror is preferable because
it's much easier to use and reason about. All writes go solely through
Mercurial, so it's clear where the official source is :)

Eli
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[Python-Dev] Python for new users

2013-09-30 Thread Nick Efford 

In the 'PEP453 ready for pronouncement' thread, Donald said


Because reality is that new users are still likely to be using Python 2.7.
Python 3 is just now starting to be really usable, however there's a huge
corpus of existing tutorials, course work, books etc for Python 2.7. As
Python 3 becomes more usable that existing corpus of material will be
ported over to Python 3 but in the interim there is still a pretty large
hurdle for new users to get over.


And Guido replied


Based on my day-to-day experience this is still very true. (And yes, I'm
slowly turning the tide. But it will take a long time and I am committed to
giving users the choice.)


Widely-used and linked web resources tend to persist for a very
long time, so we shouldn't use the prevalence of Python 2 resources
as a reason for excessive caution.  The key question is how much
good material is available based on Python 3 - and this has improved
significantly over the past couple of years.  The classic "How to
Think Like a Computer Scientist" has an excellent Python 3 version
available at http://interactivepython.org, for example.

Things are changing with print media, too.  Pragmatic Programmers are
about to publish the 2nd edition of "Practical Programming", based
on Python 3.  Most of the major academic publishers have released
Python 3 books in the last 12 months.  The tide is definitely
turning, perhaps has already turned.

Encouraging the continued use of 2.7 for existing programmers is
entirely justifiable, but for *newcomers* to programming I think it
is now much harder to justify.  A stronger case could have been made
a couple of years ago, when many important packages were not yet
available for Python 3, but things have changed.  Even big frameworks
like Django are now usable with Python 3.  If we aren't yet past the
point where package availability shouldn't be regarded as an adoption
barrier by beginners, we are surely very close.

I've been teaching Python as a first language to university students
for many years now, initially with Python 2 and for the last few
years with Python 3.  In my experience, they encounter fewer problems
with Python 3 (just as Guido intended, no doubt :)  The one stumbling
block in the past has been package availability for project work,
but I don't expect that to a problem this year.  All of the web and
GUI development work that they'll be doing with me, for example,
will be done entirely in Python 3.


Nick
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Re: [Python-Dev] Getting Tulip (PEP 3156) into the 3.4 stdlib, marked provisional, named asyncio

2013-09-30 Thread Eric V. Smith 
On 09/29/2013 08:55 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 29, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Eric V. Smith  > wrote:
> 
> On 9/27/2013 9:14 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
> 
> > I don't see any issue with redirecting the discussion.
> python-tulip@ is
> > acting like a SIG for the module, so no real precedent beyond it not
> > being hosted as a mail.python.org 
>  list.
> 
> I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I'd like the discussion to take place
> on a python.org  mailing list. I don't want to
> log in to a Google
> property, and I don't trust them with the mailing list archives.
> 
> I know my voice counts less than active Tulip discussion participants,
> but now at least I feel better for having said something.
> 
> 
> I wish you'd said something a looong time ago when it would have been
> easy to move the list. Even if we moved it now we'd have split archives.
> Also, I'm not sure where the paranoia comes from. FWIW I'm less worried
> about Google reading my personal email than about the python.org
>  webmasters reading it.

I wish I'd known the project would be such a success! I have a use for
tulip, but not much time to offer development help currently, so I'll
live with the outcome. I'd love to see it make 3.4.

Eric.


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Re: [Python-Dev] cpython (2.7): Add fake buildbottouch target.

2013-09-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou 
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 16:18:57 +0200 (CEST)
martin.v.loewis  wrote:
> http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/c1a294bbb4fa
> changeset:   85882:c1a294bbb4fa
> branch:  2.7
> parent:  85877:dd55d54b2a15
> user:Martin v. Löwis 
> date:Mon Sep 30 16:18:31 2013 +0200
> summary:
>   Add fake buildbottouch target.

"make touch" does exist in 2.7, so was this new target needed?

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] peps: document requirements

2013-09-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou 
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 17:08:00 +0200 (CEST)
christian.heimes  wrote:
> +
> +* It should return ``0`` for zero length input. (Note: This can be handled as
> +  special case, too.)

What is this required for? The main requirement is that equal stuff
hashes equal, but there's no reason for zero-length input to hash to
zero, AFAIK.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] peps: document requirements

2013-09-30 Thread Christian Heimes 
Am 30.09.2013 20:16, schrieb Antoine Pitrou:
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 17:08:00 +0200 (CEST)
> christian.heimes  wrote:
>> +
>> +* It should return ``0`` for zero length input. (Note: This can be handled 
>> as
>> +  special case, too.)
> 
> What is this required for? The main requirement is that equal stuff
> hashes equal, but there's no reason for zero-length input to hash to
> zero, AFAIK.

http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/d7ba4ca59023/Objects/object.c#l852

We make the hash of the empty string be 0, rather than using
(prefix ^ suffix), since this slightly obfuscates the hash secret

It's not a hard requirement, hence 'should' instead of 'must' like in
all other cases.

Christian

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[Python-Dev] Python for new users

2013-09-30 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Nick Efford writes:

 > Widely-used and linked web resources tend to persist for a very
 > long time, so we shouldn't use the prevalence of Python 2 resources
 > as a reason for excessive caution.  The key question is how much
 > good material is available based on Python 3 - and this has improved
 > significantly over the past couple of years.

No, it really isn't, at least it's not more key than some other
questions.  Educators like you, and like me, who are in a position to
teach pretty much what we want are somewhat limited by that (but it's
really not that hard to take your favorite Python 2 tutorial and port
it to Python 3) will certainly consider that the key question -- we
can't spend all our time on one class.

But there's another kind of educator, the consultant who goes into a
company (or perhaps comes from their training department) who will
need to teach the gory details that differ because they matter to the
applications the trainees will be maintaining and extending.

And of course self-taught programmers are likely to use something
time-tested and recommended by their peers.

I agree that the prevalence of Python 2 materials *per se* is not a
reason for *excessive* caution, but I suspect if you look closely
you'll discover that new ones are being produced and old ones revised
and enhanced.  I'll personally be interested to see what happens in
the next revision of *Python Essential Reference* for example.  (And
so will Nori:
http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/media/Nori-swears-by-Python-Essential-Reference.jpg)

 > Encouraging the continued use of 2.7 for existing programmers is
 > entirely justifiable,

I would disagree.  Programmers should not be discouraged from using
any version of Python that is needed for compatibility with existing
practice, but where possible with reasonable effort, the most recent
version of Python 3 should be encouraged.

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[Python-Dev] Released: Python 2.6.9 release candidate 1

2013-09-30 Thread Barry Warsaw 
Hello Pythoneers and Pythonistas,

I'm happy to announce the availability of Python 2.6.9 release candidate 1.

Python 2.6.9rc1 is a security-fix source-only release for Python 2.6.  This
means that general bug maintenance has ended, and only critical security
issues are being fixed.  It also means that no installers for Windows or Mac
OS X will be provided.  The last binary release of Python 2.6 was 2.6.6.

Python 2.6.9 final is currently scheduled for Monday, October 28, 2013.  Five
years after the original release of Python 2.6, the 2.6.9 final release will
be the last release of the Python 2.6 series.  After this, all official
maintenance of any kind for Python 2.6 will cease and the series will be
retired.

For ongoing maintenance, please see Python 2.7.

Since 2.6.9 will be the last Python 2.6 release ever, I ask that you please
download Python 2.6.9rc1, build it on your favorite platforms, and test it
with your favorite code.  You can report bugs to the Python bug tracker:

http://bugs.python.org

The source can be download from:

http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.6.9/

You can also see what's changed since Python 2.6.8:

http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.6.9/NEWS.txt

Many thanks go out to the entire Python community for their contributions and
help in making Python 2.6.9 available, especially Jyrki Pulliainen for his
patch contributions.

Enjoy,
-Barry
(on behalf of the Python development community)


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Re: [Python-Dev] Released: Python 2.6.9 release candidate 1

2013-09-30 Thread Thanatos xiao 
Ooh！ths!


2013/10/1 Barry Warsaw 

> Hello Pythoneers and Pythonistas,
>
> I'm happy to announce the availability of Python 2.6.9 release candidate 1.
>
> Python 2.6.9rc1 is a security-fix source-only release for Python 2.6.  This
> means that general bug maintenance has ended, and only critical security
> issues are being fixed.  It also means that no installers for Windows or
> Mac
> OS X will be provided.  The last binary release of Python 2.6 was 2.6.6.
>
> Python 2.6.9 final is currently scheduled for Monday, October 28, 2013.
>  Five
> years after the original release of Python 2.6, the 2.6.9 final release
> will
> be the last release of the Python 2.6 series.  After this, all official
> maintenance of any kind for Python 2.6 will cease and the series will be
> retired.
>
> For ongoing maintenance, please see Python 2.7.
>
> Since 2.6.9 will be the last Python 2.6 release ever, I ask that you please
> download Python 2.6.9rc1, build it on your favorite platforms, and test it
> with your favorite code.  You can report bugs to the Python bug tracker:
>
> http://bugs.python.org
>
> The source can be download from:
>
> http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.6.9/
>
> You can also see what's changed since Python 2.6.8:
>
> http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.6.9/NEWS.txt
>
> Many thanks go out to the entire Python community for their contributions
> and
> help in making Python 2.6.9 available, especially Jyrki Pulliainen for his
> patch contributions.
>
> Enjoy,
> -Barry
> (on behalf of the Python development community)
>
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