[Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
Hi, how do you feel about dropping Windows XP support for Python 3.4? It would enable us to use some features that are only available on Windows Vista and newer, for example http://bugs.python.org/issue6926 and http://bugs.python.org/issue1763 . PEP 11 says: A new feature release X.Y.0 will support all Windows releases whose extended support phase is not yet expired. For Python 3.4 is going to be a very close call. According to PEP 429 3.4.0 final is scheduled for February 22, 2014. The extended support phase of Windows XP ends merely 45 days later on April 8, 2014. Do we really have to restrict ourselves to an API that is going to become deprecated 45 days after the estimated release of 3.4.0? Christian ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
+1. And maybe amend PEP 11 to specify "whose extended support phase does not expire within 6 months of release"? (I picked 6 for no particular reason.) I don't see any good reason for Python to support an OS that Microsoft doesn't, but once 3.4.0 has been released with XP support it can't really be taken out for 3.4.1. Since 3.4.1 is almost certainly going to be after the end of extended support, better to drop it for .0 Steve > From: Christian Heimes > Subject: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL > > Hi, > > how do you feel about dropping Windows XP support for Python 3.4? It > would enable us to use some features that are only available on Windows > Vista and newer, for example http://bugs.python.org/issue6926 and > http://bugs.python.org/issue1763 . > > PEP 11 says: > A new feature release X.Y.0 will support all Windows releases > whose extended support phase is not yet expired. > > For Python 3.4 is going to be a very close call. According to PEP 429 > 3.4.0 final is scheduled for February 22, 2014. The extended support > phase of Windows XP ends merely 45 days later on April 8, 2014. Do we > really have to restrict ourselves to an API that is going to become > deprecated 45 days after the estimated release of 3.4.0? > > Christian ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
On 07/11/2013 04:58 PM, Christian Heimes wrote: how do you feel about dropping Windows XP support for Python 3.4? It would enable us to use some features that are only available on Windows Vista and newer, for example http://bugs.python.org/issue6926 and http://bugs.python.org/issue1763 . PEP 11 says: A new feature release X.Y.0 will support all Windows releases whose extended support phase is not yet expired. For Python 3.4 is going to be a very close call. According to PEP 429 3.4.0 final is scheduled for February 22, 2014. The extended support phase of Windows XP ends merely 45 days later on April 8, 2014. Do we really have to restrict ourselves to an API that is going to become deprecated 45 days after the estimated release of 3.4.0? Just because Microsoft no longer supports it doesn't mean there aren't still a lot of machines using it. Of course, I suppose those folks can just stick with 3.3. ;) -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
I guess it has to be dropped at some stage, but with Windows XP it's a case of "XP is dead. Long live XP!" There are still an awful lot of XP boxes out there, and I'd kind hate to see support dropped completely. We still use it here at home. Wikipedia/Net Applications says that Windows XP has still has a full 37% of market share! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems ) What about just have these attributes/functions on OSes that support it, for example os.kill on Python 2.6 vs 2.7? -Ben On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Christian Heimes wrote: > Hi, > > how do you feel about dropping Windows XP support for Python 3.4? It > would enable us to use some features that are only available on Windows > Vista and newer, for example http://bugs.python.org/issue6926 and > http://bugs.python.org/issue1763 . > > PEP 11 says: > A new feature release X.Y.0 will support all Windows releases > whose extended support phase is not yet expired. > > For Python 3.4 is going to be a very close call. According to PEP 429 > 3.4.0 final is scheduled for February 22, 2014. The extended support > phase of Windows XP ends merely 45 days later on April 8, 2014. Do we > really have to restrict ourselves to an API that is going to become > deprecated 45 days after the estimated release of 3.4.0? > > Christian > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list > [email protected] > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/benhoyt%40gmail.com > ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 13:49:54 +1200, Ben Hoyt wrote: > I guess it has to be dropped at some stage, but with Windows XP it's a case > of "XP is dead. Long live XP!" There are still an awful lot of XP boxes out > there, and I'd kind hate to see support dropped completely. We still use it > here at home. > > Wikipedia/Net Applications says that Windows XP has still has a full 37% of > market share! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems > ) > > What about just have these attributes/functions on OSes that support it, > for example os.kill on Python 2.6 vs 2.7? I'm afraid it's not that simple. The issue (as I understand it from Crys) is that we compile using setting that prevent the advanced features being used, and that's really the only way to do it. That is, you can only get the advanced features by using certain settings, and if you use those, the compiled code won't run on XP. So it is not practical to decide only at runtime to support the advanced feature, meaning there would have to be a differently compiled version of Python specifically for Windows XP (and doubtless new XP-specific ifdefs *as well*), and I doubt the core team is going to go there. The older versions of Python won't be going away. Those can still be used on XP. Of course, they won't get bug fixes...just like XP itself. --David ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
Ah, yeah, that makes sense -- thanks for the further explanation. True about older versions of Python "not going away". > What about just have these attributes/functions on OSes that support it, > > for example os.kill on Python 2.6 vs 2.7? > > I'm afraid it's not that simple. The issue (as I understand it from Crys) > is that we compile using setting that prevent the advanced features being > used, and that's really the only way to do it. That is, you can only get > the advanced features by using certain settings, and if you use those, > the compiled code won't run on XP. So it is not practical to decide only > at runtime to support the advanced feature, meaning there would have to > be a differently compiled version of Python specifically for Windows XP > (and doubtless new XP-specific ifdefs *as well*), and I doubt the core > team is going to go there. > > The older versions of Python won't be going away. Those can still be > used on XP. Of course, they won't get bug fixes...just like XP itself. > ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
Steve Dower writes: > I don't see any good reason for Python to support an OS that > Microsoft doesn't, How about the *users* of that OS? I don't see any good reason to take into account what Microsoft does or doesn't support. If that lack of support leads to Python users dropping XP like hot potatoes, that will be visible in itself. I doubt it will, though. EOL for XP has been coming a long long time, far longer than Microsoft anticipated ;-), yet usage persists (most small businesses I know in Japan are still using XP-based apps, small sample, I admit). If Python support for XP leads to significant pain for the majority of Python users, or the majority on Windows, that's a good reason to drop it, (which needs to be balanced against users who still need support). Regards, ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 2:11 AM, Steve Dower wrote: > +1. And maybe amend PEP 11 to specify "whose extended support phase does not > expire within 6 months of release"? (I picked 6 for no particular reason.) Why have the specification in PEP 11 if we feel we can change the rules arbitrarily when we feel like it? //Lennart ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
"Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > I don't see any good reason to take into account what Microsoft does > or doesn't support. It seems you're advocating a position quite ad odds with http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0011/#id7>. Can you propose an amendment to PEP 11 that would remove that consideration? -- \ “If you do not trust the source do not use this program.” | `\—Microsoft Vista security dialogue | _o__) | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.4 and Windows XP: just 45 days until EOL
On 12 July 2013 13:27, Lennart Regebro wrote: > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 2:11 AM, Steve Dower > wrote: > > +1. And maybe amend PEP 11 to specify "whose extended support phase does > not expire within 6 months of release"? (I picked 6 for no particular > reason.) > > Why have the specification in PEP 11 if we feel we can change the > rules arbitrarily when we feel like it? > Because process PEPs are documentation of community practice, not an inviolable constraint (e.g. PEP 1 has frequently lagged behind what we *actually* do, and only been updated once we noticed we had drifted away from the nominal procedures). In this case, the question of "What do we do when a Windows version goes EOL shortly after a Python release?" hasn't come up before, so PEP 11 has never had to take it into account. That doesn't mean we *should* change it, it just means the option is one we have available to us. Fixing issue 6926 only requires setting the minimum API version to Windows *XP*, so it isn't actually relevant to the question of whether or not to drop support for XP (only W2k, which I thought we already dropped, but we mustn't have bumped the minimum Windows API version at the time). Issue 1763 looks like it could be better solved through pywin32 than through standard library changes. It certainly doesn't appear to be worth the cost of dropping Windows XP support. Unless there are more compelling examples of APIs that we can't access through Windows XP compatible interfaces, -1 on the change for 3.4. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | [email protected] | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
