[Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Andrew Svetlov
Unittests for subprocess module has weird comment:
We cannot use os.path.realpath to canonicalize the path, since it
doesn't expand Tru64 {memb} strings.
See bug 1063571.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/82ae284cd5f1/Lib/test/test_subprocess.py#l374
is link to comment,
http://bugs.python.org/issue1063571 — issue in bugtracker.

Is it still up to date? Bug has been created in 2004.
I don't see Tru64 in list of available buildbots.

Do we need to care about this platform? And how to make sure what
existing code works fine for that?
Or maybe we can drop support for Tru64 as well as we already does it
for, say, VMS?

-- 
Thanks,
Andrew Svetlov
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Chris Jerdonek
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 2:24 AM, Andrew Svetlov  wrote:
> Unittests for subprocess module has weird comment:
> We cannot use os.path.realpath to canonicalize the path, since it
> doesn't expand Tru64 {memb} strings.
> See bug 1063571.
> http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/82ae284cd5f1/Lib/test/test_subprocess.py#l374
> is link to comment,
> http://bugs.python.org/issue1063571 — issue in bugtracker.

And to expand on Andrew's comments, issue #15533 is the current issue
that this pertains to--

http://bugs.python.org/issue15533

--Chris
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Victor Stinner
2012/9/4 Andrew Svetlov :
> I don't see Tru64 in list of available buildbots.

Nope, there is no Tru64 buildbot.

> Do we need to care about this platform? And how to make sure what
> existing code works fine for that?

I don't know this OS. According to Wikipedia, it's a closed source OS
which only runs on DEC Alpha CPU. It doesn't look to be maintained:
only bugs are fixed since 2010.

> Or maybe we can drop support for Tru64 as well as we already does it
> for, say, VMS?

See the PEP 11 for unsupported platforms.
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0011/#no-longer-supported-platforms

"Name: VMS
Unsupported in: Python 3.3
Code removed in: Python 3.4"

Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Chris Jerdonek
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:02 AM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>> Or maybe we can drop support for Tru64 as well as we already does it
>> for, say, VMS?
>
> See the PEP 11 for unsupported platforms.
> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0011/#no-longer-supported-platforms
>
> "Name: VMS
> Unsupported in: Python 3.3
> Code removed in: Python 3.4"

And for Python 2.7 when adding new tests, does this mean we should
write those tests in a way that attempts to have them pass on Tru64
(e.g. by following the pattern of another test), or should we not
worry about it?

--Chris
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Tue, 4 Sep 2012 12:24:10 +0300
Andrew Svetlov  wrote:
> Unittests for subprocess module has weird comment:
> We cannot use os.path.realpath to canonicalize the path, since it
> doesn't expand Tru64 {memb} strings.
> See bug 1063571.
> http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/82ae284cd5f1/Lib/test/test_subprocess.py#l374
> is link to comment,
> http://bugs.python.org/issue1063571 — issue in bugtracker.
> 
> Is it still up to date? Bug has been created in 2004.
> I don't see Tru64 in list of available buildbots.
> 
> Do we need to care about this platform?

I don't think so. If some hypothetical Tru64 user cares, they can
probably open a bug on the tracker.

Regards

Antoine.


-- 
Software development and contracting: http://pro.pitrou.net


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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Andrew Svetlov
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 3:11 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> I don't think so. If some hypothetical Tru64 user cares, they can
> probably open a bug on the tracker.
>
Thanks.

-- 
Thanks,
Andrew Svetlov
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Andrew Svetlov
Aha, ./Doc/whatsnew/3.0.rst declares dropping support for Tru64.
Several files in repo mention it, though.

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Andrew Svetlov  wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 3:11 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>> I don't think so. If some hypothetical Tru64 user cares, they can
>> probably open a bug on the tracker.
>>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Andrew Svetlov



-- 
Thanks,
Andrew Svetlov
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread R. David Murray
On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 15:19:38 +0300, Andrew Svetlov  
wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 3:11 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> > I don't think so. If some hypothetical Tru64 user cares, they can
> > probably open a bug on the tracker.
> >
> Thanks.

I used to work on Tru64 systems many years ago.

According to the pages on HP's site (http://h30097.www3.hp.com/) that
Google found me (HP acquired the Alpha platform that Tru64 runs on,
among other things), the Alpha itself was discontinued in 2007, and
Tru64 has reached the end of "Mature Product Support with Sustaining
Engineering" this year.  From this point on it is just "Mature Product
Support".  Not sure exactly what that means, other than that Tru64 is
definitely a dying platform.

--David
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Trent Nelson
On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 02:24:10AM -0700, Andrew Svetlov wrote:
> Is it still up to date? Bug has been created in 2004.
> I don't see Tru64 in list of available buildbots.
>
> Do we need to care about this platform? And how to make sure what
> existing code works fine for that?
>
> Or maybe we can drop support for Tru64 as well as we already does it
> for, say, VMS?

The ES40 I've got sitting in the corner waiting for a rainy day just
died a little inside.  (HP was also kind enough to donate unlimited
Tru64 media/licenses a while back.)  As for whether or not it should
be a platform CPython cares about -- I'd argue it falls in the same
boat as IRIX/MIPS: not so much.  I'll be damned if Snakebite doesn't
have Tru64/Alpha representation though :-)

OpenVMS is an interesting one though; it's still actively supported
by HP on Itanium.  I've got an Itanium earmarked marked for OpenVMS
"for an even rainier day", but I wouldn't know OpenVMS is it smacked
me in the head, so, not a high priority at the moment.

Trent.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Terry Reedy

On 9/4/2012 5:24 AM, Andrew Svetlov wrote:

Unittests for subprocess module has weird comment:
We cannot use os.path.realpath to canonicalize the path, since it
doesn't expand Tru64 {memb} strings.
See bug 1063571.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/82ae284cd5f1/Lib/test/test_subprocess.py#l374
is link to comment,
http://bugs.python.org/issue1063571 — issue in bugtracker.


It seems to me that the resolution of that issue should have been to 
either make os.path.realpath work correctly on Tru64, so we can freely 
use it as documented. If that is not possible, the doc should say not 
available ... and the test skipped on Tru64. I realizes that skipping 
tests is perhaps easier now.


--
Terry Jan Reedy


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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread Terry Reedy

On 9/4/2012 9:00 AM, Andrew Svetlov wrote:

Aha, ./Doc/whatsnew/3.0.rst declares dropping support for Tru64.
Several files in repo mention it, though.


That suggests that it should be added to PEP11. Martin is the PEP 
editor, so I guess it is his final decision.



--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread martin


Zitat von Andrew Svetlov :


http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/82ae284cd5f1/Lib/test/test_subprocess.py#l374
is link to comment,
http://bugs.python.org/issue1063571 — issue in bugtracker.

Is it still up to date? Bug has been created in 2004.
I don't see Tru64 in list of available buildbots.

Do we need to care about this platform?


That there is no buildbot is no indication. Instead, PEP 11 keeps
track of platforms we don't want to support anymore; Tru64 isn't listed.
For a long time, there had been proponents of Tru64 on this list which
would object to removing support.


And how to make sure what existing code works fine for that?


We don't need to. It's perfectly fine if it breaks - we just can't
actively remove code to support the platform.

OTOH, if Tru64 was proposed for "unsupport", we could disable support
in 3.4, and remove support in 3.5. Perhaps that would be a good thing
to do.


Or maybe we can drop support for Tru64 as well as we already does it
for, say, VMS?


No, see PEP 11.

Regards,
Martin


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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread martin


Zitat von Chris Jerdonek :


And for Python 2.7 when adding new tests


Hmm. Adding new tests to 2.7 is a questionable activity in the first
place - it should be done very carefully.


does this mean we should
write those tests in a way that attempts to have them pass on Tru64
(e.g. by following the pattern of another test), or should we not
worry about it?


2.7 should absolutely be able to support Tru64 (even though it currently
may not - that would be a bug). Any potential contributor to fix Tru64 support
should find it "easy" to add fixes.

So being cautious and following existing code sounds like a good idea.
The world wouldn't end if the test broke on Tru64, though.

Regards,
Martin


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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread martin


Zitat von Trent Nelson :


OpenVMS is an interesting one though; it's still actively supported
by HP on Itanium.  I've got an Itanium earmarked marked for OpenVMS
"for an even rainier day", but I wouldn't know OpenVMS is it smacked
me in the head, so, not a high priority at the moment.


We had an offer several months ago that patches to 3.3 would "likely" (IIRC)
be contributed; this didn't materialize. So the PEP 11 removal of VMS support
stands.

Regards,
Martin


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Re: [Python-Dev] Tru64 support

2012-09-04 Thread martin


Zitat von Terry Reedy :


On 9/4/2012 9:00 AM, Andrew Svetlov wrote:

Aha, ./Doc/whatsnew/3.0.rst declares dropping support for Tru64.
Several files in repo mention it, though.


That suggests that it should be added to PEP11. Martin is the PEP  
editor, so I guess it is his final decision.


I'd be curious if there is any public record on this removal. I'm
not sure it actually happened; socketmodule.c still has

#if defined(__digital__) && defined(__unix__)

and configure.in still has two mentionings of Tru64. Also,
cmathmodule.c still has support code for Tru64. So if support
was removed at all, this wasn't done very carefully.

I'm fine with declaring that the removal was *announced* in 3.0,
though, and actually performed in 3.4 (assuming this then actually
happens, contributions are welcome).

Regards,
Martin


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