Re: [Python-Dev] peps: Update PEP 1 to better reflect current practice

2012-05-06 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Sun, 6 May 2012 15:08:52 +1000
Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> 
> Agreed we should have a new header field to record the BDFL delegate,
> but I think I'll go with BDFL-Delegate rather than PEP-Czar.

+1 for overthrowing czars!

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Recording BDFL delegates for PEPs

2012-05-06 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Sun, 6 May 2012 16:45:32 +1000
Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> 
> For the moment, I suggest leaving your email address out of this
> field. The email obfuscation is applied on a field-by-field basis, and
> the formatter for reStructuredText PEPs actually lives in the docutils
> upstream rather than being included directly in the PEPs repo the way
> the plaintext formatter is.

I have to ask - is email obfuscation still useful these days? I would
have thought most people protect from spam by using spam filters, not
by trying to conceal their addresses.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] peps: Update PEP 1 to better reflect current practice

2012-05-06 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> On Sun, 6 May 2012 15:08:52 +1000
> Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>>
>> Agreed we should have a new header field to record the BDFL delegate,
>> but I think I'll go with BDFL-Delegate rather than PEP-Czar.
>
> +1 for overthrowing czars!

I expect PEP czar will stick as the nickname (that's why I still
mention it in PEP 1), but I definitely prefer having something a bit
more self explanatory as the official designation.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Recording BDFL delegates for PEPs

2012-05-06 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> On Sun, 6 May 2012 16:45:32 +1000
> Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>>
>> For the moment, I suggest leaving your email address out of this
>> field. The email obfuscation is applied on a field-by-field basis, and
>> the formatter for reStructuredText PEPs actually lives in the docutils
>> upstream rather than being included directly in the PEPs repo the way
>> the plaintext formatter is.
>
> I have to ask - is email obfuscation still useful these days? I would
> have thought most people protect from spam by using spam filters, not
> by trying to conceal their addresses.

I think it's one of those things where people *like* seeing it,
regardless of how effective it is in practice. The delegate field
isn't actually parsed at all, so people are free to include their
email address if they choose to - doing so won't be *necessary* until
we get an actual name collision amongst the core developers.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] cpython: Make AcquirerProxy.acquire() support timeout argument

2012-05-06 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Sun, 06 May 2012 17:56:55 +0200
richard.oudkerk  wrote:
> http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/b4a1d9287780
> changeset:   76800:b4a1d9287780
> user:Richard Oudkerk 
> date:Sun May 06 16:45:02 2012 +0100
> summary:
>   Make AcquirerProxy.acquire() support timeout argument

Should it have a Misc/NEWS entry? (and a doc addition perhaps?)

Regards

Antoine.


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[Python-Dev] Failed issue tracker submission

2012-05-06 Thread Python tracker


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Re: [Python-Dev] cpython: Make AcquirerProxy.acquire() support timeout argument

2012-05-06 Thread shibturn

On 06/05/2012 5:07pm, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Sun, 06 May 2012 17:56:55 +0200

summary:
   Make AcquirerProxy.acquire() support timeout argument


Should it have a Misc/NEWS entry? (and a doc addition perhaps?)


Since proxies for locks/semaphores are supposed to work the same way as 
the proxied object from threading, one could argue that the lack of 
support in 3.2 was a bug.


I notice now that multiprocessing.*.acquire() and threading.*.wait() 
treat negative timeouts as zero timeouts.  On the other hand, 
threading.*.acquire() treat negative timeouts as infinite.


Maybe these inconsistencies should be documented or eliminated?

As currently implemented AcquirerProxy.acquire() treats negative 
timeouts as infinite.


Cheers

Richard

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Re: [Python-Dev] cpython: Make AcquirerProxy.acquire() support timeout argument

2012-05-06 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Sun, 06 May 2012 18:58:10 +0100
shibturn  wrote:
> On 06/05/2012 5:07pm, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > On Sun, 06 May 2012 17:56:55 +0200
> >> summary:
> >>Make AcquirerProxy.acquire() support timeout argument
> >
> > Should it have a Misc/NEWS entry? (and a doc addition perhaps?)
> 
> Since proxies for locks/semaphores are supposed to work the same way as 
> the proxied object from threading, one could argue that the lack of 
> support in 3.2 was a bug.

Ok; if it's a bug it should have a NEWS entry, though.

> I notice now that multiprocessing.*.acquire() and threading.*.wait() 
> treat negative timeouts as zero timeouts.  On the other hand, 
> threading.*.acquire() treat negative timeouts as infinite.
> 
> Maybe these inconsistencies should be documented or eliminated?

I don't know. Ideally both would have raised ValueError on negative
timeouts, but it's probably too late :-)

cheers

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 405 (pyvenv) and system Python upgrades

2012-05-06 Thread Carl Meyer

On 05/05/2012 02:38 AM, Vinay Sajip wrote:

Nick Coghlan  gmail.com>  writes:


Personally, I expect that "always update your virtual environment
binaries after updating the system Python to a new point release" will
itself become a recommended practice when using virtual environments.


Of course, the venv update tool will need to only update environments which were
set up with the particular version of Python which was updated. ISTM pyvenv.cfg
will need to have a version=X.Y.Z line in it, which is added during venv
creation. That information will be used by the tool to only update specific
environments.


I don't think the added "version" key in pyvenv.cfg is needed; the 
"home" key provides enough information to know whether the virtualenv 
was created by the particular Python that was upgraded.


The "version" key could in theory be useful to know whether a particular 
venv created by that Python has or has not yet been upgraded to match, 
but since the upgrade is trivial and idempotent I don't think that is 
important.


Carl
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 405 (pyvenv) and system Python upgrades

2012-05-06 Thread Carl Meyer

On 05/05/2012 04:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Fri, 04 May 2012 14:49:03 -0600
Carl Meyer  wrote:

3) Symlink the interpreter rather than copying. I include this here for
the sake of completeness, but it's already been rejected due to
significant problems on older Windows' and OS X.


Perhaps symlinking could be used at least on symlinks-friendly OSes?
I expect older Windows to disappear one day :-) So the only left
outlier would be OS X.


It certainly could - at one point the reference implementation did 
exactly this. I understand though that even on newer Windows' there are 
administrator-privilege issues with symlinks, and I don't know that 
there's any prospect of the OS X stub executable going away, so I think 
if we did this we should assume that we're accepting a more-or-less 
permanent cross-platform difference in the default behavior of venvs. 
Maybe that's ok; it would mean that for Linux users there'd be no need 
to run any venv-upgrade script at all when Python is updated, which is 
certainly a plus.


At one point it was argued that we shouldn't symlink by default because 
users expect venvs to be isolated and not upgraded implicitly. I think 
this discussion reveals that that's a false argument, since the stdlib 
will be upgraded implicitly regardless, and that's just as likely to 
break something as an interpreter update (and more likely than upgrading 
them in sync). IOW, if you want real full isolation from a system 
Python, you build your own Python, you don't use pyvenv.


Carl

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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 405 (pyvenv) and system Python upgrades

2012-05-06 Thread Carl Meyer

On 05/05/2012 12:41 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:

On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 6:49 AM, Carl Meyer  wrote:

1) Document it and provide a tool for easily upgrading a venv in this
situation. This may be adequate. In practice the situation is quite rare:
2.6.8/2.7.3 is the only actual example in the history of virtualenv that I'm
aware of. The disadvantage is that if the problem does occur, the error will
probably be quite confusing and seemingly unrelated to pyvenv.


I think this is the way to go, for basically the same reasons that we
did it this way this time: there's no good reason to pay an ongoing
cost to further mitigate the risks associated with an already
incredibly rare event.


This seems to be the rough consensus. I'll update the PEP with a note 
about this, and we'll consider switching back to symlink-by-default on 
Linux.


Carl
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 405 (pyvenv) and system Python upgrades

2012-05-06 Thread Vinay Sajip
Carl Meyer  oddbird.net> writes:

> them in sync). IOW, if you want real full isolation from a system 
> Python, you build your own Python, you don't use pyvenv.

For the interpreter you can use your own Python, but you would still use pyvenv,
as the venv is still useful for you to have an isolated set of library
dependencies for a project.

Regards,

Vinay Sajip



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Re: [Python-Dev] Recording BDFL delegates for PEPs

2012-05-06 Thread Barry Warsaw
On May 06, 2012, at 09:31 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

>I have to ask - is email obfuscation still useful these days?

I think it's more important that Python developers (especially those
submitting or pronouncing on PEPs) can be contacted by other Python
developers.  I *personally* don't care about my pdo address getting
obfuscated, and would opt for email address inclusion.  I can appreciate that
others might feel differently.

-Barry
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] peps: Update PEP 1 to better reflect current practice

2012-05-06 Thread Barry Warsaw
On May 06, 2012, at 03:08 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:

>I'll see if I can figure out something - I may just put in text like
>"if you're at all unsure about what needs to be done, email the PEP
>editors anyway".

The diff looks good, thanks.

-Barry
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Re: [Python-Dev] Recording BDFL delegates for PEPs

2012-05-06 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Sunday, May 6, 2012, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> On May 06, 2012, at 09:31 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
> >I have to ask - is email obfuscation still useful these days?
>
> I think it's more important that Python developers (especially those
> submitting or pronouncing on PEPs) can be contacted by other Python
> developers.  I *personally* don't care about my pdo address getting
> obfuscated, and would opt for email address inclusion.  I can appreciate
> that
> others might feel differently.


+1
u

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] Recording BDFL delegates for PEPs

2012-05-06 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Antoine Pitrou writes:

 > I have to ask - is email obfuscation still useful these days?

It's hard to say.  It's still a FAQ on Mailman lists, so people still
believe it's useful.  I don't think there's hard evidence either way
(even guessing depends on the economics of the spamming business, and
only the spammers really know that).

 > I would have thought most people protect from spam by using spam
 > filters, not by trying to conceal their addresses.

Concealing addresses is most definitely a useful way to avoid spam.
However, I would guess that the effective way to do it is to have a
personal address that is never used anywhere that is easily trawled,
not to try to obfuscate addresses that are visible on the web or
in posts to open mailing lists or Usenet.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Does trunk still support any compilers that *don't* allow declaring variables after code?

2012-05-06 Thread Martin v. Löwis

On 02.05.2012 15:37, Matt Joiner wrote:


On May 2, 2012 6:00 PM, "Antoine Pitrou" mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
 >
 > On Wed, 02 May 2012 01:43:32 -0700
 > Larry Hastings mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
 > >
 > > I realize we can't jump to C99 because of A Certain Compiler.  (Its
name
 > > rhymes with Bike Row Soft Frizz You All See Muss Muss.)  But even that
 > > compiler added this extension in the early 90s.
 > >
 > > Do we officially support any C compilers that *don't* permit
 > > "intermingled variable declarations and code"?  Do we *unofficially*
 > > support any?  And if we do, what do we gain?
 >
 > Well, there's this one called MSVC, which we support quite officially.

Not sure if comic genius or can't rhyme.


This rhyming non-sense is surely above the English abilities of many of
us foreigners. I had to read Larry's text five times (two times after
you indicated that it indeed ought to rhyme - it finally worked when
I read it aloud).

So, folks: if you want to be understood, please keep the obfuscation
of the English language to a fairly low level.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Does trunk still support any compilers that *don't* allow declaring variables after code?

2012-05-06 Thread Martin v. Löwis

I realize we can't jump to C99 because of A Certain Compiler. (Its name
rhymes with Bike Row Soft Frizz You All See Muss Muss.) But even that
compiler added this extension in the early 90s.



No, it didn't. The MSVC version that we currently use (VS 2008) still
doesn't support it.

Regards,
Martin
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