Re: [Python-Dev] Patch making the current email package (mostly) support bytes
Steven D'Aprano writes: > I don't think anyone has ever suggested change for change's sake. If > they have, I'd love to read the PEP for it. Not to mention the BDFL's pronouncement message! ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] It is always loo late (Was: Relative imports in Py3k)
On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, R. David Murray wrote: >> >> I don't see why such awkward way should be necessary in Python 3k, >> which breaks backwards compatibility. Why it can't "just work" for my >> user story? > > Because you weren't around advocating and implementing a change when > Python 3 was developed? I will never have the time to advocate the changes for products I don't use (do you?), and I still don't use Python 3 - I am just looking forward to it. Is there a public list of annoyances for Python 3 that I can check to see if my change is already scheduled for Python 4 and vote for it? > It's too late now to arbitrarily break backward compatibility, so you'll > have to advocate and develop any change inside the parameters of Python's > normal backward compatibility policy. I use Python a lot and I still can't change anything I dislike, because it is always too late. > In other words, you should move this discussion to python-ideas. It is more about the development process than Python itself. Should I move to ideas? It is yet another ML I am not subscribed. -- anatoly t. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] It is always loo late (Was: Relative imports in Py3k)
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:55:03 +0300 anatoly techtonik wrote: > > Is there a public list of annoyances for Python 3 that I can check to > see if my change is already scheduled for Python 4 and vote for it? No, there isn't. If you want to know what Python 3 is about, you can : - read the docs - read the changelogs - download it and try it (especially alpha/beta versions) - read python-dev and python-checkins - read the source code - follow the bug tracker If you aren't willing to do anything of that, then I don't think your complaints belong here. comp.lang.python (also named python-list, or gmane.comp.python.general) is a more appropriate venue for your messages. > I use Python a lot and I still can't change anything I dislike, > because it is always too late. And that's a good thing, because Python is not your toy project and development of Python is not about satisfying your personal tastes. Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] sad state of OS X Python testing...
Sorry to drop out like that -- I've been having some email issues. Stephen, great job; thanks for providing that Snow Leopard buildbot. I think what we're missing now is an Intel Leopard buildbot. 35% of Mac users are still running Leopard. I'm running it myself on some machines, due to the NIS issues in Snow Leopard. And, of course, we'd like to get some of these Mac buildbots into the "stable" category, so that they are consulted for releases. The PPC Leopard and x86 Snow Leopard buildbots look like good candidates. Bill ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
I have appointed Antoine Pitrou as the authority/manager for which build slave are considered stable. If you want to get a certain slave elevated or demoted, you have to convince him. I would also like to ask release managers to take the stable list serious: test failures in a stable slave should be considered as release blockers (demoting a slave to unstable may be a resolution, though). Of course, release managers can deliberately chose to ignore specific blockers, anyway. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] sad state of OS X Python testing...
> And, of course, we'd like to get some of these Mac buildbots into the > "stable" category, so that they are consulted for releases. The > PPC Leopard and x86 Snow Leopard buildbots look like good candidates. See the message I just sent: you need to convince Antoine, and he'll arrange it. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:55:21 +0200 "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > I have appointed Antoine Pitrou as the authority/manager > for which build slave are considered stable. If you want > to get a certain slave elevated or demoted, you have to > convince him. Thank you Martin! I've added a couple of build slaves to the stable list: - x86 Windows7 (from David Bolen) - x86 Ubuntu (8.04.3 LTS, from David Bolen) - AMD64 Gentoo (from Dirkjan Ochtman) - x86 Snow Leopard (from Stephen Hansen) This is in hope that the stable list represents a greater diversity of systems and architectures. If this turns out to be too ambitious, I'll have to shrink the stable list again. (you'll notice that we have currently no 64-bit Windows machine although 64-bit support under Windows has specific issues) I would like to stress that help from the buildbot owners is welcome when some platform-specific issues need investigating and solving. Being proactive is even better! Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
On 10/13/10 2:47 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > (you'll notice that we have currently no 64-bit Windows machine although > 64-bit support under Windows has specific issues) Provided its not a problem that its a VM, I have a hefty 64-bit Win7 Professional instance that I can put a buildslave on. Despite being a VM it gets ownership of two cores and 4 gigs of RAM, so should be plenty fast to handle the load. And I do run it 24/7. -- Stephen Hansen ... Also: Ixokai ... Mail: me+python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
Am 14.10.2010 00:08, schrieb Stephen Hansen: > On 10/13/10 2:47 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> (you'll notice that we have currently no 64-bit Windows machine although >> 64-bit support under Windows has specific issues) > > Provided its not a problem that its a VM, I have a hefty 64-bit Win7 > Professional instance that I can put a buildslave on. Despite being a VM > it gets ownership of two cores and 4 gigs of RAM, so should be plenty > fast to handle the load. And I do run it 24/7. So far, we didn't have problems with VMs. Please be aware that Windows poses its own challenges. Often, builds or testsuite runs end up with popup windows, which then hang subsequent builds. You often get dozens of them to click away. So operating a Windows slave is much more tedious than a Unix one. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:08:24 -0700 Stephen Hansen wrote: > On 10/13/10 2:47 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > (you'll notice that we have currently no 64-bit Windows machine although > > 64-bit support under Windows has specific issues) > > Provided its not a problem that its a VM, I have a hefty 64-bit Win7 > Professional instance that I can put a buildslave on. Despite being a VM > it gets ownership of two cores and 4 gigs of RAM, so should be plenty > fast to handle the load. And I do run it 24/7. Sounds good. Now of course you have to setup a buildslave on it, and ask Martin to register the slave on the master (unless I'm supposed to do it myself now?). Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
On 10/13/10 3:14 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > Am 14.10.2010 00:08, schrieb Stephen Hansen: >> On 10/13/10 2:47 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >>> (you'll notice that we have currently no 64-bit Windows machine although >>> 64-bit support under Windows has specific issues) >> >> Provided its not a problem that its a VM, I have a hefty 64-bit Win7 >> Professional instance that I can put a buildslave on. Despite being a VM >> it gets ownership of two cores and 4 gigs of RAM, so should be plenty >> fast to handle the load. And I do run it 24/7. > > So far, we didn't have problems with VMs. > > Please be aware that Windows poses its own challenges. Often, builds > or testsuite runs end up with popup windows, which then hang subsequent > builds. You often get dozens of them to click away. So operating a > Windows slave is much more tedious than a Unix one. Windows always poses its own challenges. :) That's why I have the VM (and three others for older versions of windows, that just aren't on all the time like that one is) to begin with*, for testing out my day-job work. I'll give it a go; I have all the software needed to run the buildbot on it already besides VC Express, which I'm installing now. If ultimately it becomes too much of a pain, I'll go back to just providing the mac. But, I actually have a vested interest in upgrading our Python to 64-bit in the next few months, so! I'm motivated. I'll let you know when I have everything installed so you can add a buildslave account. -- Stephen Hansen ... Also: Ixokai ... Mail: me+python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Add aware local time support to datetime module
It looks like this response has slipped under my radar. Sorry. On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:37 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: [skipped description of two alternative solutions] .. > For all of the reasons you give above, I think it's a bad idea. :-) > I did not give any reason for not having access to the information that is readily available through reasonably cross-platform C API. Can you elaborate on what you think is a bad idea? > You need a proper time zone database to solve these issues, like pytz. Pytz is more ambitious than what I propose. I don't propose adding a timezone database to python or even a functionality to access system timezone database. All I want to add is a method to get aware local time in the system timezone. > Which incidentally solves the ambiguity problem as well. so the > solution is pytz. :-) No, it does not. In order to resolve the ambiguity, pytz adds a non-standard argument to tzinfo methods, but datetime objects don't know how to pass this argument and don't have data to determine its value to begin with. > What pytz doesn't have (but dateutil.tz does) is a timezone object > that uses the operating systems local timezone data, like > /etc/localzone on unix. That could be interesting to include, > possibly. Having a fixed time zone offset object for the localtime > seems a bad idea. The problem it solves is easy to get around, but the > problems created are not. This sounds like an argument against my "second alternative." As I explained, my preference is the same. Do you have an opinion on the localtime([t]) alternative? ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
> I'll give it a go; I have all the software needed to run the buildbot on > it already besides VC Express, which I'm installing now. If ultimately > it becomes too much of a pain, I'll go back to just providing the mac. > But, I actually have a vested interest in upgrading our Python to 64-bit > in the next few months, so! I'm motivated. That won't work, will it? VC Express doesn't come with an AMD64 compiler (I *think* it's possible to use the SDK one, but this again is more complicated). Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
On 10/13/10 3:42 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: >> I'll give it a go; I have all the software needed to run the buildbot on >> it already besides VC Express, which I'm installing now. If ultimately >> it becomes too much of a pain, I'll go back to just providing the mac. >> But, I actually have a vested interest in upgrading our Python to 64-bit >> in the next few months, so! I'm motivated. > > That won't work, will it? VC Express doesn't come with an AMD64 > compiler (I *think* it's possible to use the SDK one, but this again > is more complicated). Oh! Well if it takes a paid version of VS, then I won't be able to do it. I'll experiment with getting the SDK and using that and seeing if I can make it work. -- Stephen Hansen ... Also: Ixokai ... Mail: me+python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 17:42, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > > I'll give it a go; I have all the software needed to run the buildbot on > > it already besides VC Express, which I'm installing now. If ultimately > > it becomes too much of a pain, I'll go back to just providing the mac. > > But, I actually have a vested interest in upgrading our Python to 64-bit > > in the next few months, so! I'm motivated. > > That won't work, will it? VC Express doesn't come with an AMD64 > compiler (I *think* it's possible to use the SDK one, but this again > is more complicated). > > Regards, > Martin > Correct. There are a few hacky ways to get Express to use the x64 SDK, or so I read. I have a Server 2008 R2 x64 box with the full Visual Studio that I could add to the buildbot fleet. It's a dual core with 4 GB of RAM, plenty of disk space, and it runs 24/7. I'll see about getting that setup as a build slave. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
"Martin v. Löwis" writes: > Please be aware that Windows poses its own challenges. Often, builds > or testsuite runs end up with popup windows, which then hang subsequent > builds. You often get dozens of them to click away. So operating a > Windows slave is much more tedious than a Unix one. For anyone else considering a Windows buildbot, recently I started using an AutoIt script in the background to automatically clear any RTL dialogs (which seems to come and go as an issue but got really bad recently in one of the branches, and I lost track of when Python itself stopped disabling them during tests), and it's been working well so far. I also have a tweak in the local buildbot code to disable all Windows-based (non-RTL) dialogs during test runs. I'd be happy to provide both bits to anyone else starting a Windows buildbot. There's still a regular problem of stranded python_d processes in the background (something shared with my OSX tiger slave, but there I can run a script to detect processes owned by init and kill them). So periodic manual checks/cleanup is still definitely needed. -- David ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
-On [20101014 00:55], Brian Curtin ([email protected]) wrote: >Correct. There are a few hacky ways to get Express to use the x64 SDK, or so I >read. I think Martin meant that you wouldn't need VS Express if you install the Windows SDK, since it provides all the tools in the SDK to build Python. Sorry Martin, haven't had the time at work to test the latest trunks out with just the SDK. I'll see if I can free some time for that in the coming days. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B Seize from every moment its unique novelty and do not prepare your joys... ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
On 10/13/10 10:28 PM, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven wrote: > -On [20101014 00:55], Brian Curtin ([email protected]) wrote: >> Correct. There are a few hacky ways to get Express to use the x64 SDK, or so >> I >> read. > > I think Martin meant that you wouldn't need VS Express if you install the > Windows SDK, since it provides all the tools in the SDK to build Python. There's mixed signals here, and I'm not sure what they all mean. I have a Win7-64bit box that I am willing to use to run a buildslave, if its possible to do so. #python-dev thought that VS express was all that was needed; then here, it seemed to me that Martin said that you needed the full version of VS or perhaps a complex setup with the SDK compiler; but you seem to be interpreting Martin that the SDK provides everything and nothing else is needed. Then again on top of that, my offer may be mooted-- if Brian Curtin is going to host a x86_64 windows slave then I don't need to worry about this because its being provided otherwise. I'm willing to put up with the particular windows-specific difficulties that go with running a buildslave (especially with David Bolen's AutoIt scripts which may ease things): but I'm not entirely sure from these varied results if its even possible or needed. So, my questions are: 1. Is someone else (Hi, Brian) providing a 64-bit windows slave, so there isn't actually any need for me to go through the effort of it? 2. If not, is all that's needed is the SDK to build 64-bit Python? 3. Or, does one have to use a combination of VS-Express + the SDK in a "hack"y way (as some seem to claim, but this last mail seems to indicate otherwise) to get it done? Basically, it comes down to: 'it' being a 64-bit windows slave, is it actually needed from me (i.e., is a more apt expert not providing it), and can anyone actually say what the requirements are for making it happen? At the moment I'm uncertain if its even needed or worthwhile to go through the effort to get the whole visual studio environment set up. I have computing resources, cycles, and time that's free to offer up: but the differing responses here makes me unsure if I'm being useful or not in trying here :) -- Stephen Hansen ... Also: Ixokai ... Mail: me+python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Stable build slaves authority
Am 13.10.2010 22:55, schrieb "Martin v. Löwis": > I have appointed Antoine Pitrou as the authority/manager > for which build slave are considered stable. If you want > to get a certain slave elevated or demoted, you have to > convince him. > > I would also like to ask release managers to take the > stable list serious: test failures in a stable slave should > be considered as release blockers (demoting a slave > to unstable may be a resolution, though). Of course, > release managers can deliberately chose to ignore specific > blockers, anyway. Very nice. http://www.python.org/dev/buildbot/stable/ is completely green at the moment -- which means that I can now indeed take failures seriously in the future. Previously, two of four "stables" for py3k were not even connected for ages (and yes, I should have complained earlier. As we progress into the beta stage, I will take buildbot failures and release blockers more seriously). cheers, Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list [email protected] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
