Re: [Python-Dev] Should we drop active support of OSF/1?

2010-05-03 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Jesus Cea  jcea.es> writes:
> 
> Would be enough to raise an "ERROR" at configure time if OSF test is
> positive?. To delete that intentional "ERROR" would be trivial.

I think it's ok.  Noone will probably notice anyway.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Alias for distutils.file_util.write_file in e.g. shutils

2010-05-03 Thread Olemis Lang
On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Tarek Ziadé  wrote:
> a similar function in
>>    e.g. shutils module ?
>
> A: Yes :)
>
> Basically, anything useful in distutils.file_util and
> distutils.dir_util can maove in Shutil.
> That's why I added make_archive (and unpack_archive)
>
> Please add an issue, I'll work on adding this function,
>

http://bugs.python.org/issue8604

-- 
Regards,

Olemis.

Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/
Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-03 Thread Barry Warsaw
On May 01, 2010, at 08:58 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:

>On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 21:09, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>>>Though maybe it should be called Conclusion instead of Accepted and
>>>used for Rejected PEPs, as well?
>>
>> Good point.  What do you think about 'Resolution'?
>
>Fine with me.

I've updated PEP 1 and the supporting scripts to accept a Resolution: header.
Note that in PEP 1 I wrote:

*Note: The Resolution header is required for Standards Track PEPs
only.  It contains a URL that should point to an email message or
other web resource where the pronouncement about the PEP is made.*

but in fact, the scripts make Resolution optional (it's kind of a pain to make
it required just for Standards Track PEPs - contributions welcome).

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-03 Thread Fred Drake
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> but in fact, the scripts make Resolution optional (it's kind of a pain to make
> it required just for Standards Track PEPs - contributions welcome).

It will also be a pain to retroactively update older PEPs with the
newly-required metadata; leaving it optional (in practice) seems
acceptable.  It should only apply to newly-resolved PEPs, which is
also likely a pain to build into the script.


  -Fred

-- 
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"Chaos is the score upon which reality is written." --Henry Miller
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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-03 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Apr 30, 2010, at 04:28 PM, Steve Holden wrote:

>Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>>> As to Guido's point about the decision making process, Nick's right.  I just
>>> want to make sure we can capture the resolution in the PEP, be it by BDFL
>>> pronouncement or "hey, silence is acceptance" email.
>> 
>> I don't think "silence is acceptance" will work out in practice. For
>> issues where a PEP was written in the first place, somebody will
>> *always* object, and forever so, hoping that what he considers a mistake
>> will not be done. The advantage of Guido acting as BDFL was that
>> somebody would make an decision ultimately, one which both proponents
>> and opponents of the PEP would accept.
>> 
>> Without a BDFL, I think we need a committee to make decisions, e.g. by
>> majority vote amongst committers.
>
>Couldn't we just go with the FLUFL?

We could of course, and I would serve honorably .  But Guido's not
*that* much older than me, so you'd probably only get a few useful years out
of me before I start getting increasingly eccentric, re-opening and approving
PEPs like 313, 336, and 666.

In the meantime, let's groom Benjamin to be the Sacred Next Uncle Galvanizing
the Gamut of Language Evolution.

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-03 Thread Barry Warsaw
On May 01, 2010, at 07:12 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:

>> IIRC in the IETF this is done by the committee chair. I think it's a
>> good idea to have this be a single person to avoid endless indecision.
>
>It then seems that this role should go to the release manager of the
>upcoming feature release. Assuming Georg can accept this additional
>responsibility.

I do think it makes sense for the RM to assume these responsibilities where
Guido either can't or doesn't want to make the final decision.  I think it
will fairly substantially increase the workload on the RM, so perhaps there
are ways to off-load some of the current responsibilities (e.g. updating the
website for each release).  I also think that RMs should be term-limited so
that we can spread more experience within the community.  And past-RMs can
provide a sort of consultation group where contentious decisions can be
discussed and advice gathered.

-Barry


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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-03 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> On May 01, 2010, at 07:12 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>
>>> IIRC in the IETF this is done by the committee chair. I think it's a
>>> good idea to have this be a single person to avoid endless indecision.
>>
>>It then seems that this role should go to the release manager of the
>>upcoming feature release. Assuming Georg can accept this additional
>>responsibility.
>
> I do think it makes sense for the RM to assume these responsibilities where
> Guido either can't or doesn't want to make the final decision.  I think it
> will fairly substantially increase the workload on the RM, so perhaps there
> are ways to off-load some of the current responsibilities (e.g. updating the
> website for each release).  I also think that RMs should be term-limited so
> that we can spread more experience within the community.  And past-RMs can
> provide a sort of consultation group where contentious decisions can be
> discussed and advice gathered.

While I certainly won't object if a release manager volunteers to also
be the final PEP arbiter, I don't want to make it a job requirement
(or even an implied expectation). The responsibility of a release
manager is very much in the here and now and the near future --
stability and consistency of the current release. Being PEP arbiter
requires a somewhat different mindset, more focused on the long-term
health of the language and its community.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-03 Thread Martin v. Löwis
> In the meantime, let's groom Benjamin to be the Sacred Next Uncle Galvanizing
> the Gamut of Language Evolution.

I don't think anybody having such a position permanently can really work.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Should we drop active support of OSF/1?

2010-05-03 Thread Martin v. Löwis
Jesus Cea wrote:
> On 26/04/10 22:00, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
>>> Maybe we can drop OSF/1 safely supporting Tru64 yet, but we don't have
>>> any buildbot running any of this systems...
>> Dropping support is fine with me, in the long term. If PEP 11 is truly
>> followed, we should deprecate support in one version, and drop it in the
>> next one. This would mean we add a easy-to-remove configure error in
>> 3.2, and remove the support in 3.3.
> 
> Would be enough to raise an "ERROR" at configure time if OSF test is
> positive?. To delete that intentional "ERROR" would be trivial.

That's actually what the PEP suggests (or means to suggest). Users
willing to take over maintenance would, at a minimum, know how to remove
that error. If a user doesn't know how to remove it, they can ask for
help, but more importantly, they probably consider it already
unsupported - which is exactly the desired effect.

Just to rephrase: the point of this deprecation cycle is to give users a
chance to take over maintenance, and to declare, in public, that they
are interested in that port. If nobody steps forward, we can safely
assume that nobody cares.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-03 Thread Benjamin Peterson
2010/5/3 Guido van Rossum :
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>> I do think it makes sense for the RM to assume these responsibilities where
>> Guido either can't or doesn't want to make the final decision.  I think it
>> will fairly substantially increase the workload on the RM, so perhaps there
>> are ways to off-load some of the current responsibilities (e.g. updating the
>> website for each release).  I also think that RMs should be term-limited so
>> that we can spread more experience within the community.  And past-RMs can
>> provide a sort of consultation group where contentious decisions can be
>> discussed and advice gathered.

I'm very -1 on the release manager making decisions on PEPs. The RM
right now basically makes a release schedule and cuts releases. The
little power he has is mostly used for rejecting features in the beta
period. This task should not be politicized.



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-03 Thread Steve Holden
Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> 2010/5/3 Guido van Rossum :
>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>>> I do think it makes sense for the RM to assume these responsibilities where
>>> Guido either can't or doesn't want to make the final decision.  I think it
>>> will fairly substantially increase the workload on the RM, so perhaps there
>>> are ways to off-load some of the current responsibilities (e.g. updating the
>>> website for each release).  I also think that RMs should be term-limited so
>>> that we can spread more experience within the community.  And past-RMs can
>>> provide a sort of consultation group where contentious decisions can be
>>> discussed and advice gathered.
> 
> I'm very -1 on the release manager making decisions on PEPs. The RM
> right now basically makes a release schedule and cuts releases. The
> little power he has is mostly used for rejecting features in the beta
> period. This task should not be politicized.
> 
That seems reasonable, but it also seems reasonable to try and simplify
the task of updating the web site for each release. There's plenty to do
 without having to fight that issue too.

I'm copying this message to Rich Leland, who is currently making a study
of the PSF's web requirements, to make sure this gets folded in. Many of
the tasks are essentially macrogeneration, and unless automated will
remain error-prone.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden   +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
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Re: [Python-Dev] Should we drop active support of OSF/1?

2010-05-03 Thread Jesus Cea
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 03/05/10 21:55, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
> Just to rephrase: the point of this deprecation cycle is to give users a
> chance to take over maintenance, and to declare, in public, that they
> are interested in that port. If nobody steps forward, we can safely
> assume that nobody cares.

http://bugs.python.org/issue8606 . I will take care of the final cleanup
in 3.3, if nobody stands up to keep OSF* alive.

I am deprecating OSF*. If it is "too much", we can change it to "OSF1".

- -- 
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[email protected] - http://www.jcea.es/ _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/_/
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[Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Brett Cannon
Since 2.7 is probably going to exist for a while, I am running Clang 2.7's
static analyzer (``clang --static``) over trunk. It's mostly just finding
stuff like unneeded variable initialization or variables that are never used
(compilation is picking up unused returned values, almost all from
PyObject_INIT).

When I check in these changes I will do it file by file, but my question is
how to handle Misc/NEWS. I have gone through the underscores and the 'a's in
Modules and already have six modified files, so the final count might be a
little high. Do people want individual entries per file, or simply a single
entry that lists each file modified?

We should probably go through the C code and fix the whitespace before we
hit 2.7 final (there is a ton of lines with extraneous spaces).

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Benjamin Peterson
2010/5/3 Brett Cannon :
> Since 2.7 is probably going to exist for a while, I am running Clang 2.7's
> static analyzer (``clang --static``) over trunk. It's mostly just finding
> stuff like unneeded variable initialization or variables that are never used
> (compilation is picking up unused returned values, almost all from
> PyObject_INIT).
> When I check in these changes I will do it file by file, but my question is
> how to handle Misc/NEWS. I have gone through the underscores and the 'a's in
> Modules and already have six modified files, so the final count might be a
> little high. Do people want individual entries per file, or simply a single
> entry that lists each file modified?

Do these changes even warrant a NEWS entry? NEWS is more for user
facing changes.

> We should probably go through the C code and fix the whitespace before we
> hit 2.7 final (there is a ton of lines with extraneous spaces).

Why?

> -Brett



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Benjamin Peterson  python.org> writes:
> 
> 2010/5/3 Brett Cannon  python.org>:
> > When I check in these changes I will do it file by file, but my 
question is
> > how to handle Misc/NEWS. I have gone through the underscores and the 
'a's in
> > Modules and already have six modified files, so the final count might 
be a
> > little high. Do people want individual entries per file, or simply a 
single
> > entry that lists each file modified?
> 
> Do these changes even warrant a NEWS entry? NEWS is more for user
> facing changes.

Indeed. At most a single NEWS entry sounds sufficient.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Brett Cannon
I'll just do a single entry saying that the static analyzer was used and not
list the files.

And in reply to Benjamin's question about the whitespace, I guess it
actually doesn't matter. More important to clean up in py3k.

On May 3, 2010 4:00 PM, "Antoine Pitrou"  wrote:


Benjamin Peterson  python.org> writes:
>
> 2010/5/3 Brett Cannon  python.org>:

> > When I check in these changes I will do it file by file, but my
question is
> > how to handle M...
Indeed. At most a single NEWS entry sounds sufficient.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Le Mon, 03 May 2010 16:11:53 -0700, Brett Cannon a écrit :
> 
> And in reply to Benjamin's question about the whitespace, I guess it
> actually doesn't matter. More important to clean up in py3k.

Would it be finally time to standardize all C files on a 4-spaces 
indentation rule?

I understand the "svn annotate" argument, but we edit code far more often 
than we annotate it. Also, it seems "svn ann -x -w" would ignore 
whitespace changes.

Regards

Antoine.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Steve Holden
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Le Mon, 03 May 2010 16:11:53 -0700, Brett Cannon a écrit :
>> And in reply to Benjamin's question about the whitespace, I guess it
>> actually doesn't matter. More important to clean up in py3k.
> 
> Would it be finally time to standardize all C files on a 4-spaces 
> indentation rule?
> 
> I understand the "svn annotate" argument, but we edit code far more often 
> than we annotate it. Also, it seems "svn ann -x -w" would ignore 
> whitespace changes.
> 
Let's not forget to consider what Hg can do, since that represents the
future.

regards
 Steve
-- 
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See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
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Re: [Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Barry Warsaw
On May 03, 2010, at 10:12 PM, Steve Holden wrote:

>Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>> Le Mon, 03 May 2010 16:11:53 -0700, Brett Cannon a écrit :
>>> And in reply to Benjamin's question about the whitespace, I guess it
>>> actually doesn't matter. More important to clean up in py3k.
>> 
>> Would it be finally time to standardize all C files on a 4-spaces 
>> indentation rule?
>> 
>> I understand the "svn annotate" argument, but we edit code far more often 
>> than we annotate it. Also, it seems "svn ann -x -w" would ignore 
>> whitespace changes.
>> 
>Let's not forget to consider what Hg can do, since that represents the
>future.

Now would be a good time to convert the C files to 4 space indents.  We've
only been talking about it for a decade at least.  While I'm sure history can
be preserved across the svn->hg import, it's enough of a break to bite the
bullet and fix the code.  I think we only need to convert the py3k branch
though.

-Barry



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Re: [Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Alexandre Vassalotti
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> Now would be a good time to convert the C files to 4 space indents.  We've
> only been talking about it for a decade at least.

Will changing the indentation of source files to 4 space indents break
patches on the bug tracker?

-- Alexandre
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Re: [Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Martin v. Löwis
> Will changing the indentation of source files to 4 space indents break
> patches on the bug tracker?

Plain patch will choke, but "patch -l" might accept them. I have only
read the documentation, though, and don't know whether it does in practice.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Running Clang 2.7's static analyzer over the code base

2010-05-03 Thread Martin v. Löwis
Steve Holden wrote:
> Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>> Le Mon, 03 May 2010 16:11:53 -0700, Brett Cannon a écrit :
>>> And in reply to Benjamin's question about the whitespace, I guess it
>>> actually doesn't matter. More important to clean up in py3k.
>> Would it be finally time to standardize all C files on a 4-spaces 
>> indentation rule?
>>
>> I understand the "svn annotate" argument, but we edit code far more often 
>> than we annotate it. Also, it seems "svn ann -x -w" would ignore 
>> whitespace changes.
>>
> Let's not forget to consider what Hg can do, since that represents the
> future.

I think Mercurial chokes in the light of white space inconsistencies
just as much as Subversion. One reason for not converting in the past
was also that it would break merging, unless that whitespace
normalization is applied to all these branches.

Regards,
Martin
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[Python-Dev] Daily DMGs

2010-05-03 Thread Martin v. Löwis
David Bolen and I started producing daily OSX installers, at

http://www.python.org/dev/daily-dmg/

If you find problems with these, please report them to bugs.python.org.

Regards,
Martin
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