Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-01 Thread Dirkjan Ochtman 
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 21:09, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>>Though maybe it should be called Conclusion instead of Accepted and
>>used for Rejected PEPs, as well?
>
> Good point.  What do you think about 'Resolution'?

Fine with me.

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-01 Thread Tarek Ziadé 
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
[..]
>>>
>>> Without a BDFL, I think we need a committee to make decisions, e.g. by
>>> majority vote amongst committers.
>>
>> Couldn't we just go with the FLUFL?
>
> IIRC in the IETF this is done by the committee chair. I think it's a
> good idea to have this be a single person to avoid endless indecision.

BPD = Benevolent Pep Dictator
BPC = Benevolent Pep Caliph   (sounds good in French, not sure in English ;) )

What about naming several BPD + and have one BPC elected each year by
all the core devs ?

== BPD ==

I am not sure if this would work for all areas in Python-core, but
looking at the maintainers.rst file, it looks like we could name for
example Brett for all the import machinery things, Marc-André for all
the unicode things, I could be the one about packaging, etc.

If we could manage to split the python-core development into
categories, and add these categories in the PEP metadata, that would
define who takes the final decision in case we can't reach consensus.

== BPC ==

Of course some PEPs could concern several categories,  so we would
still need some kind of Pep dictator if there's no consensus.  So what
about electing a BPC every year ?

Tarek

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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-01 Thread Martin v. Löwis 
> Of course some PEPs could concern several categories,  so we would
> still need some kind of Pep dictator if there's no consensus.  So what
> about electing a BPC every year ?

I think having a single body/person pronounce on all PEPs is sufficient;
as that person should certainly listen to the opinions of the respective
experts.

See also my proposal that the release manager of the next feature
release automatically assumes that role.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Frequency of the dev docs autobuild

2010-05-01 Thread Georg Brandl 
Am 29.04.2010 13:40, schrieb R. David Murray:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:16:14 +1000, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>> Does the online dev version of the docs build in response to docs
>> checkins, or just once a day?
> 
> I believe it does it once a day.  Georg recently changed how this is done,
> so we should get official word from him.

Yes, it builds once a day.  The build process currently takes quite long,
since PDFs are also built every time.  We could change the procedure to
rebuild the HTML more frequently or on checkin, but that would again
make the PDFs mismatch the online docs, and I would say it's not necessary.

>> (And is that written down somewhere and I've just forgotten where to
>> look...)
> 
> I don't think so, but it should be.

It is documented at .  The docs themselves
bear the "last updated" date only.

Georg

-- 
Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less.
Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy
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two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-01 Thread Antoine Pitrou 
Martin v. Löwis  v.loewis.de> writes:
> 
> I think having a single body/person pronounce on all PEPs is sufficient;
> as that person should certainly listen to the opinions of the respective
> experts.

The issue is more a question of personal bandwidth. Giving an informed decision
requires reading and listening to a lot of advice, material etc.

Then it's not obvious that we will have many PEPs in the future. The syntax is
pretty much frozen (even after the moratorium, it seems unlikely anything big
will happen -- except if we want to add first-class coroutines). Many
enhancements (e.g. new APIs in existing library modules) can be done, and are
done, without PEPs at all.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-01 Thread Martin v. Löwis 
> Then it's not obvious that we will have many PEPs in the future.

Given Guido's Theorem: the PEPs yet to be written will hopefully
outnumber the PEPs written so far.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-01 Thread Tarek Ziadé 
On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> Martin v. Löwis  v.loewis.de> writes:
>>
>> I think having a single body/person pronounce on all PEPs is sufficient;
>> as that person should certainly listen to the opinions of the respective
>> experts.
>
> The issue is more a question of personal bandwidth. Giving an informed 
> decision
> requires reading and listening to a lot of advice, material etc.

Yes that was the idea. For instance in packaging matters, I don't
expect other core devs
to have the time to learn about every aspect of a particular packaging
problem to be able to
make the best decision.

Now if the release manager takes the decision, I guess the result will
be the same at the end,
as Martin says: he'll ask for the opinion of the respective experts so
I guess it works too.

>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Frequency of the dev docs autobuild

2010-05-01 Thread R. David Murray 
On Sat, 01 May 2010 11:35:04 +0200, Georg Brandl wrote:
> Am 29.04.2010 13:40, schrieb R. David Murray:
> > On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:16:14 +1000, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> >> Does the online dev version of the docs build in response to docs
> >> checkins, or just once a day?
> > 
> > I believe it does it once a day.  Georg recently changed how this is done,
> > so we should get official word from him.
> 
> Yes, it builds once a day.  The build process currently takes quite long,
> since PDFs are also built every time.  We could change the procedure to
> rebuild the HTML more frequently or on checkin, but that would again
> make the PDFs mismatch the online docs, and I would say it's not necessary.
> 
> >> (And is that written down somewhere and I've just forgotten where to
> >> look...)
> > 
> > I don't think so, but it should be.
> 
> It is documented at .  The docs themselves
> bear the "last updated" date only.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any docs there about the
automated build process and when and where it runs.

(Note that the old automated build process, the build.sh script, wasn't
documented in that sense anywhere that I know of, either.  And I can
never remember where its web status page is...at least for the
new docs procedure we have the last build date in an obvious place :)

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Re: [Python-Dev] Frequency of the dev docs autobuild

2010-05-01 Thread Paul Moore 
On 1 May 2010 15:28, R. David Murray  wrote:
> Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any docs there about the
> automated build process and when and where it runs.

I assume Georg was referring to "Development versions of the Python
documentation are available on-line and updated daily".

Paul.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-05-01 Thread Tres Seaver 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jesse Noller wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Benjamin Peterson  
>> wrote:
>>> 2010/4/30 Maciej Fijalkowski :
 On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Benjamin Peterson  
 wrote:
> 2010/4/30 Antoine Pitrou :
>> Jesse Noller  gmail.com> writes:
>>> Consider this a plaintitive -1 to any sort of rule-or-decision based
>>> on committee.
>>>
>>> I'd much rather a 2x4 to the forehead.
>> Oops, sorry but what does "a 2x4 to the forehead" mean?
>> (and "plaintitive" by the way?)
> The former means being hit by a board and by the latter, he probably
> means "plaintive" meaning melancholy.
>
 Does it only work for english speaking non-metric system users? (2x4
 is probably something imperial)
>>> Yes, that's a 5,04 by 10,08 for you. :)
>> Of course "2 by 4" is just the name. The actual measurements of such a
>> piece of lumber in the store are about 1.75 by 3.75 inch. :-)
>>
> 
> We americans round up! (all the time)

Lumber is, oddly, named for its "wet size" (when cut), rather than "dry
size" (when you buy it at the lumber yard after it dries).


Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  [email protected]
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
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Re: [Python-Dev] Frequency of the dev docs autobuild

2010-05-01 Thread R. David Murray 
On Sat, 01 May 2010 16:18:19 +0100, Paul Moore  wrote:
> On 1 May 2010 15:28, R. David Murray  wrote:
> > Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any docs there about the
> > automated build process and when and where it runs.
> 
> I assume Georg was referring to "Development versions of the Python
> documentation are available on-line and updated daily".

Yes, most likely.  I think I am asking for more documentation than you
were :)

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Re: [Python-Dev] Frequency of the dev docs autobuild

2010-05-01 Thread Martin v. Löwis 
R. David Murray wrote:
> On Sat, 01 May 2010 16:18:19 +0100, Paul Moore  wrote:
>> On 1 May 2010 15:28, R. David Murray  wrote:
>>> Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any docs there about the
>>> automated build process and when and where it runs.
>> I assume Georg was referring to "Development versions of the Python
>> documentation are available on-line and updated daily".
> 
> Yes, most likely.  I think I am asking for more documentation than you
> were :)

Then I think you have to propose specific wording. It runs on
www.python.org (why would you expect it to run elsewhere???),
and what about "daily" do you consider imprecise? Do you really need
exact hour, minute, and second? What for?

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Frequency of the dev docs autobuild

2010-05-01 Thread Nick Coghlan 
Paul Moore wrote:
> On 1 May 2010 15:28, R. David Murray  wrote:
>> Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any docs there about the
>> automated build process and when and where it runs.
> 
> I assume Georg was referring to "Development versions of the Python
> documentation are available on-line and updated daily".

Thanks, that's what I was missing.

Cheers,
Nick.


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