Re: [Python-Dev] Two small PEP ideas

2010-04-28 Thread Dirkjan Ochtman
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 23:55, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> I believe the more important part of Barry's suggested change here is
> requiring a link to the archived message (usually from python-dev) where
> the PEP was accepted (be it directly by you as BDFL, or by consensus
> from a "sufficient" number of core developers). This will likely also
> help with reminding people to announce on python-dev when PEPs are
> accepted by consensus (or by you) somewhere like PyCon or a sprint.

Though maybe it should be called Conclusion instead of Accepted and
used for Rejected PEPs, as well?

Cheers,

Dirkjan
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Re: [Python-Dev] Enhanced tracker privileges for dange rjim to do triage.

2010-04-28 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Steven D'Aprano writes:

 > As I see it, the two camps are divided purely on the question of how to 
 > get increased privileges.

As I see it, the division is over what constitutes merit, and how it
is created or improved.

 > Both sides agree that merit is a requirement, but the disagreement
 > is on how to prove you have such merit.

I disagree vehemently with that characterization of my position (and
I strongly suspect David would, too).  The primary argument of the
"quality" camp as I see it is that the familiarization period
*creates* value, both in terms of training ("merit" for the job) and
interpersonal relationships ("building community").  Thus it is a *net
benefit*, not a *net cost*.  AFAICS, the "quantity" camp sees it as a
nearly pure loss, simply slowing down inflow of preexisting "merit"
(and perhaps discouraging it entirely).

 > > *By definition*, a community is not diverse in the most fundamental
 > > sense.
 > 
 > I think you're using a definition of community that doesn't appear in 
 > any dictionary I'm aware of, nor do I understand what you mean by "most 
 > fundamental sense" of diverse. Talking about diversity within a single 
 > community is not an oxymoron.

Where did I write "oxymoron"?  The grammar was a bit awkward, but my
point is simple: the root of the word "community" is *common*.
Therefore it makes sense to bring in newcomers via a process which
accustoms them to the commonality, of whatever degree, the community
is based on.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Make 'normal' the default tracker priority level

2010-04-28 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
"Martin v. Löwis" writes:
 > 
 > > When I open http://bugs.python.org/iss...@template=item
 > > priority is (still) set at no selection. Is this my local cache (which I
 > > do not know how to clear in FF) or is 'normal' filled in after submission?
 > 
 > It is filled in after submission.

You still want the auditor to make sure, but it is possible to set the
default in the page template.  Would you like a patch for that for
consideration?  If so, are there other elements it might be useful to
have defaults for?  (I would submit each as a separate patch.)


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Re: [Python-Dev] Enhanced tracker privileges for dange rjim to do triage.

2010-04-28 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:16:48 pm Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
>  > As I see it, the two camps are divided purely on the question of
>  > how to get increased privileges.
>
> As I see it, the division is over what constitutes merit, and how it
> is created or improved.
>
>  > Both sides agree that merit is a requirement, but the disagreement
>  > is on how to prove you have such merit.
>
> I disagree vehemently with that characterization of my position (and
> I strongly suspect David would, too).  The primary argument of the
> "quality" camp as I see it is that the familiarization period
> *creates* value, both in terms of training ("merit" for the job) and
> interpersonal relationships ("building community").  Thus it is a
> *net benefit*, not a *net cost*.  AFAICS, the "quantity" camp sees it
> as a nearly pure loss, simply slowing down inflow of preexisting
> "merit" (and perhaps discouraging it entirely).

Thank you for clarifying your position.

I disagree with it, but at least now I understand it better.




-- 
Steven D'Aprano
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Re: [Python-Dev] Enhanced tracker privileges for dangerjim to do triage.

2010-04-28 Thread R. David Murray
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:16:48 +0900, "Stephen J. Turnbull"  
wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
> 
>  > As I see it, the two camps are divided purely on the question of how to 
>  > get increased privileges.
> 
> As I see it, the division is over what constitutes merit, and how it
> is created or improved.
> 
>  > Both sides agree that merit is a requirement, but the disagreement
>  > is on how to prove you have such merit.
> 
> I disagree vehemently with that characterization of my position (and
> I strongly suspect David would, too).  The primary argument of the
> "quality" camp as I see it is that the familiarization period
> *creates* value, both in terms of training ("merit" for the job) and
> interpersonal relationships ("building community").  Thus it is a *net
> benefit*, not a *net cost*.  AFAICS, the "quantity" camp sees it as a
> nearly pure loss, simply slowing down inflow of preexisting "merit"
> (and perhaps discouraging it entirely).

Except for the "vehemently" part, I think that's an accurate summary
of my position.

--
R. David Murray  www.bitdance.com
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Re: [Python-Dev] Make 'normal' the default tracker priority level

2010-04-28 Thread R. David Murray
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:22:02 +0900, "Stephen J. Turnbull"  
wrote:
> You still want the auditor to make sure, but it is possible to set the
> default in the page template.  Would you like a patch for that for
> consideration?  If so, are there other elements it might be useful to
> have defaults for?  (I would submit each as a separate patch.)

As far as I can see none of the other fields should have a default
value.

--
R. David Murray  www.bitdance.com
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Re: [Python-Dev] Enhanced tracker privileges for dangerjim to do?triage.

2010-04-28 Thread A.M. Kuchling
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 10:46:37AM +1000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> their ability to gain recognition for their merit. It's not enough to 
> be good at what you do, people have to know it. Ten high-quality 
> patches for high-profile bugs in a week may get you enhanced 
> privileges, while thirty high-quality patches for low-profile bugs in 
> six years might not, simply because nobody notices you.

True.  This makes me wonder if we should be data-mining the tracker
information to look for significant contributors that no one has
noticed.

--amk
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Re: [Python-Dev] Enhanced tracker privileges for dangerjim to do?triage.

2010-04-28 Thread Antoine Pitrou
A.M. Kuchling  amk.ca> writes:
> 
> True.  This makes me wonder if we should be data-mining the tracker
> information to look for significant contributors that no one has
> noticed.

I'd say that we usually notice them, since we process their patches or read
their reviews and comments. Unless perhaps they're called "John Smith" or "Jean
Dupont" (if French).

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Enhanced tracker privileges for dangerjim to do?triage.

2010-04-28 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
A.M. Kuchling writes:

 > True.  This makes me wonder if we should be data-mining the tracker
 > information to look for significant contributors that no one has
 > noticed.

It's an interesting idea.  But I've done something similar to this, ad
hoc[1], a few times in XEmacs, and it has never worked out.  That's
not to say it never will, but I found that people with a long-term
low-level interest generally have a reason for being that way.

Footnotes: 
[1]  In looking through logs, I see a person whose name I recognize
from other commits associated with a currently problematic area, and
get in touch.  They've been happy to give what advice they can on the
current issue, but then gracefully decline more regular involvement.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Make 'normal' the default tracker priority level

2010-04-28 Thread Martin v. Löwis
> You still want the auditor to make sure, but it is possible to set the
> default in the page template.  Would you like a patch for that for
> consideration?  If so, are there other elements it might be useful to
> have defaults for?  (I would submit each as a separate patch.)

Feel free to submit patches. I don't want to spend more time on this
soon, though.

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [Python-Dev] Anyone can do patch reviews (was: Enhanced tracker privileges...)

2010-04-28 Thread A.M. Kuchling
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 02:40:19PM -, [email protected] wrote:
> This list would make a good addition to one of the cpython development  
> pages.  If potential contributors could find this information, then  
> they'd be much more likely to participate by doing reviews.

If anyone wants to write the updated text, the following command will
make an anonymous read-only checkout of the /dev/ pages:

  svn ls https://svn.python.org/www/trunk/beta.python.org/build/data/dev

I can apply a patch.

--amk
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