Re: [Python-Dev] My patches

2008-11-02 Thread Barry Warsaw

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On Oct 30, 2008, at 10:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote:


Ulrich Eckhardt wrote:

On Thursday 30 October 2008, Victor Stinner wrote:

One of the reasons why I'm very keen on us moving to a distributed
version control system is to help break the logjam on core  
developers.

Yeah, exactly :-) Does anyone already maintain a distributed tree?
Mercurial, GIT, anything else?
Bazaar. Take a look at the developers' pages on python.org, they  
mention that a BZR checkout is available. I know that it works  
(though the initial checkout is glacially slow) but I don't know  
what "official" support it has or what is planned with it.


I'd like to try it out, but the instructions on http://www.python.org/dev/bazaar/ 
 say to get wget http://code.python.org/snapshots/python-bzr-snapshot.tar.bz2 
, which is a 404. Anyone know the actual URL?


This is fixed now.
- -Barry

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Re: [Python-Dev] My patches

2008-11-02 Thread Barry Warsaw

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On Oct 30, 2008, at 11:04 AM, A.M. Kuchling wrote:


On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:04:42AM +, Barry Warsaw wrote:
One of the reasons why I'm very keen on us moving to a distributed  
version
control system is to help break the logjam on core developers.   
True, your
code will still not be able to land in the "official" branch  
without core
developer intervention, but you will be able to share your code,  
fixes,
branches with everyone in a much more live way than patches in a  
tracker.


I don't see how a DVCS will fix anything.  The bottleneck is in
assessing patches for inclusion in the master tree; not enough people
are doing that.  We'd just end up with lots of proposed branches
waiting to be merged, instead of patches to be applied.


I disagree.  Dealing with patches is much more painful than dealing  
with branches.  A patch is a dead thing sitting in a tracker.  They  
easily get out of date, are difficult to apply and update, etc.  Live  
branches are much easier to review, update, track changes in the  
trunk, and share.


Yes, it still means we'll have a lot of branches to review, but the  
overhead of reviewing them and shepherding them to landing will go down.



(What a DVCS might enable is making it easier to do larger
experiments, like the recent Vmgen work, and publish them in a form
that people can download.  We could create SVN branches now, but that
means people would then have commit access to all of the Python
source.)


A dvcs means that people can publish their branches in a wide variety  
of ways.  Trusted developers can push their branches to  
code.python.org.  Non-core developers can use one of the free public  
dvcs branch hosting service.  Industrious users can self-publish their  
branches.  Anyone with email can bundle a branch and send it via a  
smart email package (much different than just-a-patch).


This means both large and small experiments are very easy to perform.   
So are small branches that fix a particular bug or add a small  
feature.  In a good dvcs, branches are very cheap to make and share,  
regardless of whether you're a core developer or a casual hacker.


- -Barry

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting removal.

2008-11-02 Thread Giovanni Bajo
On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:21:26 +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote:

> Maciej Fijalkowski wrote:
>>> ...
>> 
>>> We know it is the plan for PyPy to work in this way, and also that
>>> Jython and Ironpython works like that (using the host vm's GC), so it
>>> seems to be somehow agreeable with the python semantics (perhaps not
>>> really with __del__ but they are not really nice anyway).
>>>
>>>
>> PyPy has a semi-advanced generational moving gc these days. It's not as
>> well tuned as JVMs one, but it works quite well. Regarding semantic
>> changes, there is a couple which as far as I remember are details which
>> you should not rely on anyway (At least some of the below applies also
>> for Jython/IronPython):
>> 
>> * __del__ methods are not called immediately when object is not in a
>> cycle
>> 
>> * all objects are collected, which means objects in cycles are broken
>> in arbitrary order (gc.garbage is always empty), but normal ordering is
>> preserved.
>> 
>> * id's don't always resemble address of object in memory
>> 
>> * resurrected objects have __del__ called only once in total.
> 
> Yep, I'm pretty those are all even explicitly documented as
> implementation details of CPython (PEP 343's with statement was largely
> added as a cross-implementation way of guaranteeing prompt cleanup of
> resources like file handles without relying on CPython's __del__
> semantics or writing your own try/finally statements everywhere).

Though there is a fair difference from "explicitly documented as 
implementation details" and the real-world code where programmers have 
learnt to save code lines by relying on the reference-counting semantics.

[[ my 0.2: it would be a great loss if we lose reference-counting 
semantic (eg: objects deallocated as soon as they exit the scope). I 
would bargain that for a noticable speed increase of course, but my own 
experience with standard GCs from other languages has been less than 
stellar. ]]
-- 
Giovanni Bajo
Develer S.r.l.
http://www.develer.com

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[Python-Dev] buffer function

2008-11-02 Thread Aditi Meher
i am using it postgresql as back-end and HTML as front-end,i want to
display 10-10 records at a time which is there in the database using
python.so what is function for buffer that we can use it in python?i
am able to connect my databse in python,but dont know how to create
buffer in python and how to take records from tables which are there
in the database?can please provide me any kind of function or code for
buffer in python?

i have one more doubt that how to call python script in HTML?

PLEASE REPLY
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Re: [Python-Dev] buffer function

2008-11-02 Thread Steve Holden
Aditi Meher wrote:
> i am using it postgresql as back-end and HTML as front-end,i want to
> display 10-10 records at a time which is there in the database using
> python.so what is function for buffer that we can use it in python?i
> am able to connect my databse in python,but dont know how to create
> buffer in python and how to take records from tables which are there
> in the database?can please provide me any kind of function or code for
> buffer in python?
> 
> i have one more doubt that how to call python script in HTML?
> 
> PLEASE REPLY

Please submit this question to the comp.lang.python group (python-list
at python dot org). Python-dev is for discussion or the development *of*
Python, not development *with* Python.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC  http://www.holdenweb.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting removal.

2008-11-02 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Hi,

Jesse Noller  gmail.com> writes:
> If python were to have free threading, courtesy of a lack
> of the GIL, it would help those people quite a bit. Sometimes you just
> need shared state. Myself? I used multiprocess *and* threads all the
> time for various reasons.

I think it is important to remind that the GIL doesn't prevent (almost) true
multithreading. The only thing it prevents is full use of multi-CPU resources in
a single process. But if you are using threads to reduce latencies rather than
increase throughput, the GIL isn't really an obstacle (it probably makes things
a bit worse than a free-threading scenario, but not that much; and you can tweak
sys.setcheckinterval()).

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting removal.

2008-11-02 Thread Stefan Behnel
Michael Foord wrote:
> Moving more C extensions to an implementation based on ctypes would be
> enormously useful for PyPy, IronPython and Jython, but ctypes is not yet
> as portable as Python itself which could be an issue (although one worth
> resolving).

In the same line, moving more extensions to a high-level language like Cython,
instead of writing them in straight C, would make a later switch to a
different environment a lot easier, as the extensions could be regenerated
with a modified Cython compiler (obviously minus some fixing of premature
optimisations and the like).

Stefan

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting removal.

2008-11-02 Thread Eric Smith

Giovanni Bajo wrote:
[[ my 0.2: it would be a great loss if we lose reference-counting 
semantic (eg: objects deallocated as soon as they exit the scope). I 
would bargain that for a noticable speed increase of course, but my own 
experience with standard GCs from other languages has been less than 
stellar. ]]


And my $0.02:

I'd gladly trade deterministic destruction (due to reference counting or 
any other mechanism) for improved performance. I've often thought of 
creating a mode where destruction didn't happen right away with 
reference counting, just so I could find places where I'm relying on it. 
 I consider it a bug to rely on reference counting to close files, for 
example. Maybe I should just run under Jython or IronPython everyone 
once in a while.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting removal.

2008-11-02 Thread Adam Olsen
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Eric Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Giovanni Bajo wrote:
>>
>> [[ my 0.2: it would be a great loss if we lose reference-counting semantic
>> (eg: objects deallocated as soon as they exit the scope). I would bargain
>> that for a noticable speed increase of course, but my own experience with
>> standard GCs from other languages has been less than stellar. ]]
>
> And my $0.02:
>
> I'd gladly trade deterministic destruction (due to reference counting or any
> other mechanism) for improved performance. I've often thought of creating a
> mode where destruction didn't happen right away with reference counting,
> just so I could find places where I'm relying on it.  I consider it a bug to
> rely on reference counting to close files, for example. Maybe I should just
> run under Jython or IronPython everyone once in a while.

I've considered making files issue a warning if they've got buffered
writes and they're not explicitly closed.  Although my feeling is a
read-only file should produce the same warning, there's situations
where "proper" error handling is very difficult or impossible.


-- 
Adam Olsen, aka Rhamphoryncus
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting removal.

2008-11-02 Thread Greg Ewing

Eric Smith wrote:

I'd gladly trade deterministic destruction (due to reference counting or 
any other mechanism) for improved performance.


Another thing to consider is that refcounting spreads out the
time spent doing GC evenly over the execution of the program,
so that you don't get pauses occurring at random times.

Sometimes in games I've found that I had to disable cyclic
GC in order to get smooth frame rates. With no refcounting
I wouldn't have the option of doing that. I'd be disappointed
if that meant I could no longer use Python for these kinds of
games.

--
Greg
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting removal.

2008-11-02 Thread skip

Antoine> I think it is important to remind that the GIL doesn't prevent
Antoine> (almost) true multithreading. The only thing it prevents is
Antoine> full use of multi-CPU resources in a single process. 

I believe everyone here knows that.  I believe what most people are
clamoring for is to make "full use of their multi-CPU resources in a single
process".

Skip
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting removal.

2008-11-02 Thread skip

Eric> I consider it a bug to rely on reference counting to close files,

We can mostly have our cake and eat it too using the "with" statement.  In
most cases it should be sufficient I would think.

Skip

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[Python-Dev] Looking for VCS usage scenarios

2008-11-02 Thread Brett Cannon
I have started the DVCS PEP which can be seen at
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dg7fctr4_40dvjkdg64 . Not much is there
beyond the rationale, usage scenarios I plan to use, and what other
sections I plan to write.

At this point I am looking for any suggestions for fundamental usage
scenarios that I am missing from the PEP. If you think the few already
listed are missing some core part of a VCS, please let me know.

And just to stave off some emails, I have two comments to make. One,
please do not start sending me info on how to fill in the usage
scenarios. I want to first solidify what the scenarios are. Plus I
want to figure them out on my own to get a feel of the documentation
for the tools.

Second, as of right now Git is not in the running. Ignoring the fact I
dislike the tool (my issues with it are documented in the python-dev
archives), there is also the fact that it would be nicer to have
Python have as its VCS something written in Python instead of C/Perl.

-Brett
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting removal.

2008-11-02 Thread Eric Smith

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Eric> I consider it a bug to rely on reference counting to close files,

We can mostly have our cake and eat it too using the "with" statement.  In
most cases it should be sufficient I would think.


True, and I meant to mention that. But unfortunately, my work projects 
are stuck on 2.4 for the time being, so that doesn't help me much.


Eric.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Looking for VCS usage scenarios

2008-11-02 Thread Gustavo Niemeyer
Hi Brett,

> At this point I am looking for any suggestions for fundamental usage
> scenarios that I am missing from the PEP. If you think the few already
> listed are missing some core part of a VCS, please let me know.

As an initial disclaimer, I use bzr in my daily routine.  That said,
I'm sending below a few mostly unbiased high-level ideas, just based
on useful ways we explore the DVCS-aspect on our normal daily
workflow.

== Coordinated development with dependent features ==

A variation on coordinated development, which is actually one of the
main motivators for DVCS.  Branch A is evolving out of the mainline,
and it depends on a feature that is on branch B which is also not yet
integrated.  Parallel development of both should be nicely supported.
I'm sure all DVCS will do that in a decent form, but figuring how this
works may be instructive and worth mentioning.

== Centralization of feature-specific development ==

That's a curious one when we're talking about distributed development,
isn't it? :-)   Think about the following scenario: 5 people working
in parallel on a tricky feature which will take a while to get to the
mainline.  Each developer works on a specific aspect of the feature
for a few hours/days in their own branch, and then merges to and from
what's considered as the feature-mainline.  In essence, the problem is
that it's messy to just go towards the "everyone merges from everyone"
route when working in a common problem.  We've found that being able
to use an svn-like approach for the *feature* mainline (a branch that
is shared by all defining the status quo) is a handy way to handle
that.  I'm sure there are other approaches to solve the same problem,
but it's interesting to consider what they are for each tool since in
our experience the problem will show up eventually, and supporting it
nicely makes a big difference on the outcome.

== Attaching of history-carrying diffs ==

This one may feel weird as well, and I'm guessing some people might
react as "just send a URL to a branch".  In practice, it is handy many
times to just attach something to the bug tracker, for instance.  This
means that the "branch" is kept in the history of the bug.  Also, with
something like this, someone external to the development process may
very easily provide his changes in the bug or in a mail without having
to set up any infrastructure/accounts/whatever at all to provide his
branch.


That's it for now.  If I can think of any other use cases from our
routine that might serve as things to explore in such a comparison,
I'll let you know.

-- 
Gustavo Niemeyer
http://niemeyer.net
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Re: [Python-Dev] My patches

2008-11-02 Thread Alex Martelli
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Barry Warsaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
   ...
> A dvcs means that people can publish their branches in a wide variety of
> ways.  Trusted developers can push their branches to code.python.org.
>  Non-core developers can use one of the free public dvcs branch hosting
> service.  Industrious users can self-publish their branches.  Anyone with

BTW, if we go with hg, I recommend bitbucket.org as a "free public
(hg) hosting service" of choice -- Jesper (the owner and developer of
the site) is friendly and solicitous in his maintenance, the whole
site is quite OS-friendly in general (free "professional-level"
accounts and support for open-source projects which choose to host
there) and Python-friendly in particular (I gather the site's coded in
Python), and my experience there has been nothing short of excellent.
All it's missing is a simple code review tool like code.google.com's
or Rietveld, but Jesper's promised me he would integrate something to
that effect...


Alex
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Re: [Python-Dev] Looking for VCS usage scenarios

2008-11-02 Thread Benjamin Peterson
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Brett Cannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have started the DVCS PEP which can be seen at
> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dg7fctr4_40dvjkdg64 . Not much is there
> beyond the rationale, usage scenarios I plan to use, and what other
> sections I plan to write.
>
> At this point I am looking for any suggestions for fundamental usage
> scenarios that I am missing from the PEP. If you think the few already
> listed are missing some core part of a VCS, please let me know.

I think one very important requirement of Python's VCS is advanced
merging support. The trunk and py3k are very special branches because
a commit in one should not necessarily find its way into the other. To
that end, I think it's critical to have svnmerge.py-like blocking
(preferably with unblocking, too) and fine cherry-picking of
revisions.


-- 
Cheers,
Benjamin Peterson
"There's nothing quite as beautiful as an oboe... except a chicken
stuck in a vacuum cleaner."
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[Python-Dev] How to select text of text field in python‏Card

2008-11-02 Thread Sonia

Hi, I need to select a text of text field! Which function is used for selection 
of text of text field? Sonia,
 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Python-Dev Digest, Vol 64, Issue 4> To: 
> [email protected]> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:10:48 +0100> > Send 
> Python-Dev mailing list submissions to> [email protected]> > To subscribe 
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> edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of 
> Python-Dev digest..."> > > Today's Topics:> > 1. Re: Fwd: Removal of GIL 
> through refcounting removal. (Eric Smith)> 2. Re: Fwd: Removal of GIL through 
> refcounting removal. (Adam Olsen)> 3. Re: Fwd: Removal of GIL through 
> refcounting removal. (Greg Ewing)> 4. Re: Fwd: Removal of GIL through 
> refcounting removal.> ([EMAIL PROTECTED])> 5. Re: Fwd: Removal of GIL through 
> refcounting removal.> (skip@
 pobox.com)> 6. Looking for VCS usage scenarios (Brett Cannon)> 7. Re: Fwd: 
Removal of GIL through refcounting removal. (Eric Smith)> 8. Re: Looking for 
VCS usage scenarios (Gustavo Niemeyer)> 9. Re: My patches (Alex Martelli)> > > 
--> > 
Message: 1> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:34:14 -0500> From: Eric Smith <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]>> Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting> 
removal.> To: [email protected]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed> > Giovanni Bajo 
wrote:> > [[ my 0.2: it would be a great loss if we lose reference-counting > > 
semantic (eg: objects deallocated as soon as they exit the scope). I > > would 
bargain that for a noticable speed increase of course, but my own > > 
experience with standard GCs from other languages has been less than > > 
stellar. ]]> > And my $0.02:> > I'd gladly trade deterministic de
 struction (due to reference counting or > any other mechanism) for improved 
performance. I've often thought of > creating a mode where destruction didn't 
happen right away with > reference counting, just so I could find places where 
I'm relying on it. > I consider it a bug to rely on reference counting to close 
files, for > example. Maybe I should just run under Jython or IronPython 
everyone > once in a while.> > > --> > Message: 2> 
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:07:45 -0600> From: "Adam Olsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> 
Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting> removal.> 
To: "Eric Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Cc: [email protected]> Message-ID:> 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1> > On Sun, 
Nov 2, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Eric Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > Giovanni Bajo 
wrote:> >>> >> [[ my 0.2: it would be a great loss if we lose 
reference-counting semantic> >
 > (eg: objects deallocated as soon as they exit the scope). I would bargain> 
 > >> that for a noticable speed increase of course, but my own experience 
 > with> >> standard GCs from other languages has been less than stellar. ]]> 
 > >> > And my $0.02:> >> > I'd gladly trade deterministic destruction (due to 
 > reference counting or any> > other mechanism) for improved performance. I've 
 > often thought of creating a> > mode where destruction didn't happen right 
 > away with reference counting,> > just so I could find places where I'm 
 > relying on it. I consider it a bug to> > rely on reference counting to close 
 > files, for example. Maybe I should just> > run under Jython or IronPython 
 > everyone once in a while.> > I've considered making files issue a warning if 
 > they've got buffered> writes and they're not explicitly closed. Although my 
 > feeling is a> read-only file should produce the same warning, there's 
 > situations> where "proper" error handling is very difficult or impossible.> 
 > > > -- > Adam Ols
 en, aka Rhamphoryncus> > > --> > Message: 3> Date: 
Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:33:11 +1300> From: Greg Ewing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Subject: 
Re: [Python-Dev] Fwd: Removal of GIL through refcounting> removal.> To: 
[email protected]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Content-Type: 
text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed> > Eric Smith wrote:> > > I'd gladly 
trade deterministic destruction (due to reference counting or > > any other 
mechanism) for improved performance.> > Another thing to consider is that 
refcounting spreads out the> time spent doing GC evenly over the execution of 
the program,> so that you don't get pauses occurring at random times.> > 
Sometimes in games I've found that I had to disable cyclic> GC in order to get 
smooth frame rates. With no refcounting> I wouldn't have the option of doing 
that. I'd be disappointed> if that meant I cou

Re: [Python-Dev] How to select text of text field in python ‏Card

2008-11-02 Thread Benjamin Peterson
2008/11/2 Sonia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Hi,
>
> I need to select a text of text field! Which function is used for selection
> of text of text field?

Please ask your question on comp.lang.python or the Python card
mailing list. This mailing list is for the development of core Python,
not developing with Python.



-- 
Cheers,
Benjamin Peterson
"There's nothing quite as beautiful as an oboe... except a chicken
stuck in a vacuum cleaner."
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[Python-Dev] file open in python interpreter

2008-11-02 Thread adrian golding
hi all, i am trying to find out where is the part of the code in the python
interpreter that opens up the .py file and parses it. in particular, i am
trying to find the file open command in that file.  I greped and i just want
to make sure this is it: /Python-2.6/Parser/pgenmain.c
i am intending to take a hash measurement of the .py file just before i open
it to run the script.  is the above file the right place to call for the
measurement before the file open function?

thank you - adrian
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Re: [Python-Dev] Looking for VCS usage scenarios

2008-11-02 Thread Ralf Schmitt
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:05 AM, Brett Cannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have started the DVCS PEP which can be seen at
> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dg7fctr4_40dvjkdg64 . Not much is there
> beyond the rationale, usage scenarios I plan to use, and what other
> sections I plan to write.
>

I think you really should not exclude any dvcs based on it's
implementation language.
I.e. requiring it being written in python for the sake of "eating your
own dogfood" is just a very weak argument. git is certainly missing
from your list.

Regards,
- Ralf
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