[Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

[David Allouche]

Hello,

It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are rendered, but 
the documentation does not display the messages, only their docstrings. That 
makes it quite unusable.

http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/Kernel.html&classView=class/ProtoObject.html
 


I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, that's 
confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand why that was 
confusing...

Who can fix that?

Re: [Pharo-users] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

[Ben Coman]

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Tudor Girba  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We are about to integrate in Pharo a new member of the Glamorous Toolkit:
> the GTDebugger. As this is a significant change that might affect your
> workflow, here is some background information to help you deal with the
> change.
>
> First, you should know that the change is not irreversible and it is
> easily possible to disabled the new debugger through a setting.
>

Can we do it the other way for Pharo 5 "Release"?  Keeping the existing
debugger as default and as desired people can enable GTDebugger.   I know
this limits exposure and slows uptake and feedback, but prior to this
announcement there has been *zero* community discussion of making this the
default.   I can't find the Pharo 5 roadmap/plan,  but I don't remember
GTDebugger being mentioned at all.   I worry how it looks to people
considering Pharo for big changes like this to be dropped out of the sky
without *public* forward *planning*.

A big UI change like this should happen *early* in a release cycle -
because then you have a *long* time for it to become stable for
documentation.   Even though Dimitris is keen, I can understand why its
disheartening for Stef.   I'd hope the way is to introduce such big changes
is as a technology preview and have the *default* match the recently
developed documentation.

Note my problem is only with the default for the Pharo 5 "Release", so it
could be default now to kick start its exposure and revert the default a
few weeks before the Pharo 5 Release. And its not like you lose a whole
year of feedback by not being default in Pharo 5 Release.  The
documentation using newcomers who are most likely to use Pharo 5 "Release"
probably wouldn't have the confidence (or care) to provide the feedback you
want anyway.  Many of those in the community who would normally provide
feedback will be follow Pharo 6 bleeding edge anyway, so they'll that won't
be stuck with the old debugger.  Making GTDebugger the default early in
Pharo 6 should still get plenty of feedback from those that usually
contribute.

btw, I am looking forward to using it for myself.

cheers -ben



> However, please do take the time to provide us feedback if something does
> not work out for you. We want to know what can be improved and we try to
> react as fast as we can.
>
> A practical change comes from the fact that the variables are manipulated
> through a GTInspector, which makes it cheaper to maintain in the longer run.
>
> While the first thing that will capture the attention is the default
> generic interface, the real power comes from the moldable nature of the
> debugger. Like all other GT tools, GTDebugger is also moldable by design.
> This means that we can construct custom debuggers for specific libraries at
> small costs (often measured in a couple of hundred lines of code).
>
>
>
> Here is an introductory overview blog post that also includes some links
> for further reading:
> http://www.humane-assessment.com/blog/gtdebugger-in-pharo/
>
> Please let us know what you think.
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Personally I dont mind if its the default or not and I dont judge things
unless i try them for a considerably amount of time.

Pharo is not and will not be begineer friendly for at least the not so
distant future. Its not a matter of whether the GTDebugger becomes the
default or not.

There are a lot of issues Pharo has to face like most small community
projects:

a) Lack of substantial documentation
b) Complete lack of begineer orientated documentation
c) Lack of substantial begineer friendly libraries
d) Lack of Libraries in general
e) Small community with limited support
f) Lack of support of other languages
g) Completely diffirent coding paradigm from familar approaches
etc etc

Python is an excelent example of a programming language which is probably
the most begineer friendly out there and the one that I recommend the most,
for one new to coding and ones coming from another language.

Unfortunately begineer friendly approaches on IDE and language level
require big resources that pharo does not possess. For me pharo is an
advanced coder orientated tool, with a steep learning curve,  targeted at
coder already familiar with OOP and the pitfalls of regular coding with
considerable experience that look for a new way of coding that is radically
different to what they are used to.

Again I cannot really say if the old debugger is more begineer friendly
than the new, I will have to try it for a week to offer an educated
opinion.

Also as I have already said I will be building my own workflow and guis
with pharo because in many cases I dont like the design of old and new
pharo tools, so for me at least I dont care if GTDebugger will become the
default on this release or the other, what I do care is that is moldable, a
design I have praised Spotter as well about, which means its easier for me
to change take off its GUI , use my own GUI in place and maybe customize it
a bit here and there.

Thus I wont be pushing for anything since I will be fine with any scenario
as long as the new debugger is integrated.

I am coding with pharo because I am interested in making tools that fit
like a glove to my needs and desires and help me automate my workflow as a
3d artists. I dont feel the need to impose my preference on other people
since its easy enough to customise to great extend how Pharo looks and
behaves and none else is going to build the tools I want to use since my
desires are so specific and not what the average coder wants.

For example ChronosManager is a tool I use on daily basis. This is why I am
a coder, because I find it fun to create my own tools even if those tools
are based on tools others created.

So I have zero intention in getting in the way of such decisions.  But I
cannot deny also that I am in favor of a debugger that allows me with ease
to change its GUI and it behavior.



On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:10 PM Ben Coman  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Tudor Girba  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We are about to integrate in Pharo a new member of the Glamorous Toolkit:
>> the GTDebugger. As this is a significant change that might affect your
>> workflow, here is some background information to help you deal with the
>> change.
>>
>> First, you should know that the change is not irreversible and it is
>> easily possible to disabled the new debugger through a setting.
>>
>
> Can we do it the other way for Pharo 5 "Release"?  Keeping the existing
> debugger as default and as desired people can enable GTDebugger.   I know
> this limits exposure and slows uptake and feedback, but prior to this
> announcement there has been *zero* community discussion of making this the
> default.   I can't find the Pharo 5 roadmap/plan,  but I don't remember
> GTDebugger being mentioned at all.   I worry how it looks to people
> considering Pharo for big changes like this to be dropped out of the sky
> without *public* forward *planning*.
>
> A big UI change like this should happen *early* in a release cycle -
> because then you have a *long* time for it to become stable for
> documentation.   Even though Dimitris is keen, I can understand why its
> disheartening for Stef.   I'd hope the way is to introduce such big changes
> is as a technology preview and have the *default* match the recently
> developed documentation.
>
> Note my problem is only with the default for the Pharo 5 "Release", so it
> could be default now to kick start its exposure and revert the default a
> few weeks before the Pharo 5 Release. And its not like you lose a whole
> year of feedback by not being default in Pharo 5 Release.  The
> documentation using newcomers who are most likely to use Pharo 5 "Release"
> probably wouldn't have the confidence (or care) to provide the feedback you
> want anyway.  Many of those in the community who would normally provide
> feedback will be follow Pharo 6 bleeding edge anyway, so they'll that won't
> be stuck with the old debugger.  Making GTDebugger the default early in
> Pharo 6 should still get plenty of feedb

Re: [Pharo-users] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

> On 10 Jan 2016, at 15:48, Dimitris Chloupis  wrote:
> 
> Personally I dont mind if its the default or not and I dont judge things 
> unless i try them for a considerably amount of time. 
> 
> Pharo is not and will not be begineer friendly for at least the not so 
> distant future. Its not a matter of whether the GTDebugger becomes the 
> default or not. 
> 
> There are a lot of issues Pharo has to face like most small community 
> projects:
> 
> a) Lack of substantial documentation
> b) Complete lack of begineer orientated documentation
> c) Lack of substantial begineer friendly libraries
> d) Lack of Libraries in general
> e) Small community with limited support
> f) Lack of support of other languages
> g) Completely diffirent coding paradigm from familar approaches
> etc etc

I know you mean well, that you only want to encourage people to work on these 
areas, but it hurts me (personally) quite a bit if you say it like that - 
because statements like that are like a self fulfilling prophecy and very bad 
advertising that is hard to counter.

I have written many serious libraries with lot's of documentation and I have 
supported them for years, I have written standalone articles for various 
audiences and I am active on the ML's; I did my part for your points a) to e) - 
I cannot do more.

Should I stop if even you cannot see it ? 

And many others did at least as much, if not more.

You helped with PBE and did screencasts, which is b) - is that a 'complete' 
lack of beginner documentation ? 

Yes, Pharo (Smalltalk) is a bit strange, needs some getting used to, but 
basically it is like most other OO languages (but better ;-).

Ever seen Haskel or Erlang, or C++ for that matter ?

We should positively but honestly describe ourselves, not belittle our own 
work. 

> Python is an excelent example of a programming language which is probably the 
> most begineer friendly out there and the one that I recommend the most, for 
> one new to coding and ones coming from another language. 

I disagree, I once let one of my sons take some Python lessons on the Raspberry 
PI. We had quite a few WTF moments, not the least when things did not go as 
advertised (in other words, error messages and debugging is ugly as hell). But 
more importantly the course (one of the 'best') started explaining weird syntax 
from the beginning, that is not beginner friendly at all. The underlying model 
is not nice, you cannot hide that for long.

Python is widespread, because it is better that some alternatives and has good 
C integration.

> Unfortunately begineer friendly approaches on IDE and language level require 
> big resources that pharo does not possess. For me pharo is an advanced coder 
> orientated tool, with a steep learning curve,  targeted at coder already 
> familiar with OOP and the pitfalls of regular coding with considerable 
> experience that look for a new way of coding that is radically different to 
> what they are used to. 
> 
> Again I cannot really say if the old debugger is more begineer friendly than 
> the new, I will have to try it for a week to offer an educated opinion. 
> 
> Also as I have already said I will be building my own workflow and guis with 
> pharo because in many cases I dont like the design of old and new pharo 
> tools, so for me at least I dont care if GTDebugger will become the default 
> on this release or the other, what I do care is that is moldable, a design I 
> have praised Spotter as well about, which means its easier for me to change 
> take off its GUI , use my own GUI in place and maybe customize it a bit here 
> and there. 
> 
> Thus I wont be pushing for anything since I will be fine with any scenario as 
> long as the new debugger is integrated. 
> 
> I am coding with pharo because I am interested in making tools that fit like 
> a glove to my needs and desires and help me automate my workflow as a 3d 
> artists. I dont feel the need to impose my preference on other people since 
> its easy enough to customise to great extend how Pharo looks and behaves and 
> none else is going to build the tools I want to use since my desires are so 
> specific and not what the average coder wants. 
> 
> For example ChronosManager is a tool I use on daily basis. This is why I am a 
> coder, because I find it fun to create my own tools even if those tools are 
> based on tools others created. 
> 
> So I have zero intention in getting in the way of such decisions.  But I 
> cannot deny also that I am in favor of a debugger that allows me with ease to 
> change its GUI and it behavior. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:10 PM Ben Coman  wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Tudor Girba  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> We are about to integrate in Pharo a new member of the Glamorous Toolkit: the 
> GTDebugger. As this is a significant change that might affect your workflow, 
> here is some background information to help you deal with the change.
> 
> First, you should know that the change is not irr

Re: [Pharo-users] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

[Dimitris Chloupis]

"I know you mean well, that you only want to encourage people to work on
these areas, but it hurts me (personally) quite a bit if you say it like
that - because statements like that are like a self fulfilling prophecy and
very bad advertising that is hard to counter.

I have written many serious libraries with lot's of documentation and I
have supported them for years, I have written standalone articles for
various audiences and I am active on the ML's; I did my part for your
points a) to e) - I cannot do more.

Should I stop if even you cannot see it ?

And many others did at least as much, if not more."

I am not dismiss your effort of course Pharo is 10 times more begineer
friendly than it was 7 years ago, back then it was just a squeak fork , but
it was mostly squeak. Of course you work hard and document your libraries,
but you are not the rule , you are the exception. Most libraries dont come
with documentation, most libraries dont come with enough class comments,
hell most libraries dont even have a summary info in smalltalkhub. Esteban
had to beg to get project descriptions. Does that look to you as begineer
friendly ?

"You helped with PBE and did screencasts, which is b) - is that a
'complete' lack of beginner documentation ?"

See how I can even say that though like you I worked so hard on documenting
things ?

Am I a moron ?

Maybe

But the thing if there is one thing I love in my life the most is the
truth. And the truth is even with my effort UPBE is not remotely close to
being begineer friendly. The book itself in the Preface states that it
requires knowledge of OOP and experience with other languages. My video
tutorials are, but some of them are already outdated and I know even if I
have the motivation to update them and thats definetly not begineer
friendly.

Its not about hurting your feelings, it about being realistic. We sit here
and argue about the interface of the new debugger, and thats fine, of
course we should keep working hard making pharo more begineer friendly but
pharo wont become begineer friendly any time soon because we dont have the
amount of people to get there.

But our community grows because pharo improves and one of the improvement
is that it becomes more begineer friendly? Should we stop ? should be
discouraged about the difficulty of the whole task?

Well if people are not discouraged from sending people to Mars why should I
or you be discouraged from making pharo more beginner friendly. I never
give up and surrender, but I dont try to advertise pharo as an easy to
learn platform because when the student or beginner comes me and learns
thisn and I tell them that Pharo is as easy to learn as python, ruby etc
and hits those dead ends he/she will tell me

"but you said it will be easy as X language" and it will not be.


On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 5:22 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:

>
> > On 10 Jan 2016, at 15:48, Dimitris Chloupis 
> wrote:
> >
> > Personally I dont mind if its the default or not and I dont judge things
> unless i try them for a considerably amount of time.
> >
> > Pharo is not and will not be begineer friendly for at least the not so
> distant future. Its not a matter of whether the GTDebugger becomes the
> default or not.
> >
> > There are a lot of issues Pharo has to face like most small community
> projects:
> >
> > a) Lack of substantial documentation
> > b) Complete lack of begineer orientated documentation
> > c) Lack of substantial begineer friendly libraries
> > d) Lack of Libraries in general
> > e) Small community with limited support
> > f) Lack of support of other languages
> > g) Completely diffirent coding paradigm from familar approaches
> > etc etc
>
> I know you mean well, that you only want to encourage people to work on
> these areas, but it hurts me (personally) quite a bit if you say it like
> that - because statements like that are like a self fulfilling prophecy and
> very bad advertising that is hard to counter.
>
> I have written many serious libraries with lot's of documentation and I
> have supported them for years, I have written standalone articles for
> various audiences and I am active on the ML's; I did my part for your
> points a) to e) - I cannot do more.
>
> Should I stop if even you cannot see it ?
>
> And many others did at least as much, if not more.
>
> You helped with PBE and did screencasts, which is b) - is that a
> 'complete' lack of beginner documentation ?
>
> Yes, Pharo (Smalltalk) is a bit strange, needs some getting used to, but
> basically it is like most other OO languages (but better ;-).
>
> Ever seen Haskel or Erlang, or C++ for that matter ?
>
> We should positively but honestly describe ourselves, not belittle our own
> work.
>
> > Python is an excelent example of a programming language which is
> probably the most begineer friendly out there and the one that I recommend
> the most, for one new to coding and ones coming from another language.
>
> I disagree, I once let one of my sons take some Pyth

Re: [Pharo-users] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

[Martin Bähr]

Excerpts from Sven Van Caekenberghe's message of 2016-01-10 16:21:10 +0100:
> I have written many serious libraries with lot's of documentation and I have
> supported them for years, I have written standalone articles for various
> audiences and I am active on the ML's; I did my part for your points a) to e)
> Should I stop if even you cannot see it ? 

maybe this is the part of the problem, there is a lot of stuff, but it is not
always easy to find.

the graphic last month with a list of interesting tools and libraries for
various aspects of pharo was very informative. more of that would be nice.

same goes for documentation, a lot of it exists, but it could maybe be 
structured better.

what i mean here is, to group documentation by topic:

what do you want to do?

gui programming:
  from introduction to morphic/bloc/etc to serious complex gui applications
web development:
  seaside tutorial
  zinc tutorial (that is an excellent beginner tutorial btw)
  rest, etc...
data visualization:
  introduction to roassal, from simple example to advanced. most if not all of
that is in the agile visualization book.
etc...

> You helped with PBE and did screencasts, which is b) - is that a 'complete'
> lack of beginner documentation ? 

since last year i have observed several students from middle-school to
university level, who all managed to learn pharo with little help, just by
pointing them to a series of tutorials.

the only extra motivation i have given them is a small task to solve on top of
each tutorial. very rarely i had to answer extra questions. for the most part
the students were able to work on their own with only the existing
documentation available to them.

while this is only anecdotal evidence, it shows that pharo is approachable by
beginners. and i would claim, even complete beginners who have never programmed
before, however i don't know if any of my students actually were complete
beginners.

> Yes, Pharo (Smalltalk) is a bit strange, needs some getting used to, but
> basically it is like most other OO languages (but better ;-).

and i would say it is only strange to those who are already somewhat
experienced and have only seen and used curly-brace languages.

> I disagree, I once let one of my sons take some Python lessons on the
> Raspberry PI. We had quite a few WTF moments, not the least when things did
> not go as advertised (in other words, error messages and debugging is ugly as
> hell). But more importantly the course (one of the 'best') started explaining
> weird syntax from the beginning, that is not beginner friendly at all. The
> underlying model is not nice, you cannot hide that for long.

what i like about python syntax for beginners is the indenting. it teaches
clean code formatting. the rest is no better or worse than other similar
languages.

greetings, martin.

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[Pharo-users] Twisted trait

[Hilaire]

Hi,

When I remove a method from a trait, then save, Monticelly complains it
can not find the method in the trait.
Seen on Pharo3

Any idea?

Thanks

-- 
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

Re: [Pharo-users] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Hi,

I have taught with (I)Python and Pharo to non programmers or beginners 
and I would say, from that direct experience that Pharo is easier 
because it has an easier syntax, an uniform way of programming and a 
continuity between scripting, apps, code, code management and docs. So I 
will be talking about how I have dealt with a similar educative 
experience using pharo and python, where I think that is the pharo 
advantage and where I think, as a newbie and as a learner, are the weak 
spots to see how we can work on them.


The problem I had with python was that it is "just" the language, so 
even dealing with which is gonna be your IDE for editing code becomes an 
issue. We started with web2py for web development, which has a 
minimalist web IDE and comes with batteries included and is easier to 
learn that Django, Rails or Seaside, but when that IDE felt limited, 
supporting IDE on several Gnu/Linux distros (we used arch & debian 
based) and Windows and Mac started to make noise in the educative 
experience, even installing cross-platform solutions, because of the 
sightly differences in the tools and their tool chains. Then there was 
the issue with introspection of the models we declared on web2py, which 
required to create a list or some kind of view. Using web2py from 
IPython prompt shell was the most interactive experience we had, but 
then we need to use two separated interfaces for web2py: CLI (for 
interactive instrospection) and WUI for everything else. So we went with 
IPython interactive notebooks, which resolved some things on the idea of 
introducing newbies to modeling and computing via interactive 
documentation, but then there is the problem of source code management. 
We used fossil for documentation on our hackerspace workshops, what kept 
things simple, but because libraries where distributed with other source 
code management systems (usually git) we start to deal with git related 
issues on how to update the code, but the bigger issue was the lack of 
moldability of IPython notebook without a lot of cognitive overhead: If 
I want something like an interactive outliner combining features of Leo 
and IPython (like the proposed on [1]) I would need to go to a lot of 
different technologies and paradigms: JSON, JQuery, Javascript, python, 
ZeroMQ, server programming, client programming, HTML interfaces, 
scripting, object oriented (as listed in [2]).


[1] 
http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/on-deepness-and-complexity-of-ipython-documents.html
[2] 
http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/grafoscopio-idea-and-initial-progress.html


In contrast, making the workshops with Pharo has been a lot more smooth 
experience: learning the basics of the language, models introspection, 
data visualization, scripting, interactive documentation, IDE, "apps", 
and code management, all happens from the same environment in a 
continuous fashion. Deep roots on Smalltalk as an environment for 
children and (de)constructive learning reveal themselves in this kind of 
setups, making learning easier for newbies and makes a sharp contrast 
with the Unix/OS tradition and programming languages made from 
programmers by programmers.


Of course, this experience has a lot of "band width" being a face to 
face workshop, so we can deal with any issue on real time, even without 
proper resources in knowledge (mostly all of us are newbies) or 
documentation (mostly all of it is directed towards programmers). But 
even with limited resources, the continuity of the environment, 
responsiveness of the community and moldability of tools beats almost 
everything else with bigger communities, more documentation, more (but 
inflexible) tools and a lot of "learning impedance". I have been able to 
prototype something in months, even with limited time, that in other 
environments, including python, would take orders of magnitude more 
time, effort and knowledge (at least in the kind of experience we had 
here, but YMMV)


It this experience, community has been the most valuable resource and 
binding experience for me. It's pretty supportive and friendly most of 
the time (including the git vs fossil or pillar vs markdown or ecstatic 
vs grav/anything-else healthy rants). So there is a lot of effort and 
advantage in Pharo for newbies, from increasing documentation & videos, 
to face to face workshops to MOOCs, mailing list and chat channels and I 
think that together we can deal with the challenges ahead.


The main concern for my is rhythm and interaction with the external 
world: being small means that not all the time we can be as supportive 
or proactive as we want. Some times I get quick, detailed and/or worked 
answers to my questions that I have not the time to experiment with, 
some times I'm working hard to learn something (like with my dynamic 
spec interface question[3]) and not getting feedback in days start to 
feel like eternity. Something similar applies to external world 
interac

Re: [Pharo-users] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

[stepharo]

How come?
It would be nice to think that such statements will be read by people 
not from our world

and such statements are WRONG!

a) Lack of substantial documentation
b) Complete lack of begineer orientated documentation
c) Lack of substantial begineer friendly libraries
d) Lack of Libraries in general
e) Small community with limited support
f) Lack of support of other languages
g) Completely diffirent coding paradigm from familar approaches
etc etc

Re: [Pharo-users] Spec: Populating a playground with a particular content (was Re: Spec: Binding widgets how to)

[Johan Fabry]

Sorry for the lateness and short reply but I’m involved in a bunch of other 
things that are taking almost all of my time ...

From what I understand and what I can see in your code, you want to modify a 
widget when the UI is open. However you never trigger the rebuilding of the 
window. For example, see the Spec docs that I sent, where in 9.1 there is code 
that calls buildWithSpecLayout: . 

Actually, I am not sure you need to subclass DynamicComposableModel since the 
number of widgets never changes. You can use a normal ComposableModel subclass 
and use what is detailed in 9.1 to change the layout between the two options 
you want to have (a TextModel or a GlamourPresentationModel).

> On Jan 8, 2016, at 23:07, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas  
> wrote:
> 
> Shouldn't be #right dynamically defined according to the values of 'item' and 
> be replaced on the m2 layout? 



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PLEIAD and RyCh labs  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of 
Chile

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

[Johan Fabry]

It looks much better to me, yes. I would need to use it some time before I 
could give more detailed feedback. (And I can’t really do that until the FFI is 
fixed, because all my development crashes the VM since I am using Roassal. So I 
am still on the last Pharo version before the VM switch.)

One last thing is that I am not convinced on having the ‘proceed’, ‘step into’, 
‘step over’ et cetera buttons on the stack pane. To me they are more related to 
the source code pane, as you always see the results of pressing those buttons 
there, but on the stack not always, e.g. the ‘step over’ actions. 

> On Jan 9, 2016, at 19:06, Tudor Girba  wrote:
> 
> Thanks. What do you think of the new solution? Is it sufficient?
> 
> Doru
> 



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Johan Fabry   -   http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD and RyCh labs  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of 
Chile

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

[Serge Stinckwich]

Dear David,

yes this maybe broken, but most of the time, a Pharo developer will
never have a look to such a static documentation.
You can browse the class and the related methods very easily inside
the Pharo image, without relying on an external tool.

Regards,

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Allouche  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are rendered,
> but the documentation does not display the messages, only their docstrings.
> That makes it quite unusable.
>
> http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/Kernel.html&classView=class/ProtoObject.html
>
> I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, that's
> confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand why that
> was confusing...
>
> Who can fix that?



-- 
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

[Pharo-users] I am David Allouche, let me introduce myself.

[David Allouche]

Hello folks.

Some people have already seen me on Twitter and Slack, but I believe there 
might be some people on the mailing list that did not see those conversations.

As I have done on Slack, I am writing this introduction so people have an idea 
where I come from and what is my business with Pharo.

I am a professional programmer. My current job is tech on a small company I run 
with two associates (by the way, we are hiring a good Python web dev with a 
passion for good code). The product is a SaaS web application for recruiters. 
They call that an Application Tracking System, it is a workflow, communication 
and archival system for job applications and candidates.

I started programming 25 years ago with HyperCard, and since I have at least 
played with Pascal, C, Prograph, asm68k, HP-48 (RPL, Saturn asm), Java, bash, 
C++, LaTeX, XSLT, Delphi, Scheme, elisp, JavaScript.

I have contributed to GNU TeXmacs where I made important contributinos during 
about 2 years, as I completed by training as an software engineer, and worked 
at CNRS in Rennes. Then I got involved in GNU Arch (wrote a Python driver), 
Bazaar (bzr scm) where I worked with the founding team at Canonical while 
working on the version control aspect of launchpad.net . 
After that, I had mostly no contribution to free software, working on financial 
modeling at a bank and then on my current business. I made a presentation on 
SQLAlchemy at PyCon.fr  2015.

I am a fan Design Patterns (GoF) and the Refactoring book. My mentor at 
Canonical (Robert Collins) is heavily influenced by Smalltalk and championed XP 
there. I always had strong interests in software systems design, programming 
language design, typography, and user interface design. I feel strongly for the 
concept of software craftsmanship.

My current job is nice, good pay, lots of independence ; after 6 years working 
on the same project, I need some fresh intellectual stimulation. And I was 
recently impressed by the presentation "Nothing is Something", by Sandi Metz, 
who is heavily influenced by Smalltalk.

http://confreaks.tv/videos/bathruby2015-nothing-is-something 


So, I here I came, bumbling my way around the system, looking for intellectual 
stimulation, and for a way to make a positive contribution.

I was very impressed by the nice welcome I have received. And I see there is 
lots of useful work to do here.

So that's where I come from when you see me chipping in the conversation here.

Regards.

Re: [Pharo-users] I am David Allouche, let me introduce myself.

[Tudor Girba]

Welcome!

To get faster to the intellectual stimulation, pick a task / project and start 
asking questions. And have fun :).

Cheers,
Doru


> On Jan 10, 2016, at 11:37 PM, David Allouche  wrote:
> 
> Hello folks.
> 
> Some people have already seen me on Twitter and Slack, but I believe there 
> might be some people on the mailing list that did not see those conversations.
> 
> As I have done on Slack, I am writing this introduction so people have an 
> idea where I come from and what is my business with Pharo.
> 
> I am a professional programmer. My current job is tech on a small company I 
> run with two associates (by the way, we are hiring a good Python web dev with 
> a passion for good code). The product is a SaaS web application for 
> recruiters. They call that an Application Tracking System, it is a workflow, 
> communication and archival system for job applications and candidates.
> 
> I started programming 25 years ago with HyperCard, and since I have at least 
> played with Pascal, C, Prograph, asm68k, HP-48 (RPL, Saturn asm), Java, bash, 
> C++, LaTeX, XSLT, Delphi, Scheme, elisp, JavaScript.
> 
> I have contributed to GNU TeXmacs where I made important contributinos during 
> about 2 years, as I completed by training as an software engineer, and worked 
> at CNRS in Rennes. Then I got involved in GNU Arch (wrote a Python driver), 
> Bazaar (bzr scm) where I worked with the founding team at Canonical while 
> working on the version control aspect of launchpad.net. After that, I had 
> mostly no contribution to free software, working on financial modeling at a 
> bank and then on my current business. I made a presentation on SQLAlchemy at 
> PyCon.fr 2015.
> 
> I am a fan Design Patterns (GoF) and the Refactoring book. My mentor at 
> Canonical (Robert Collins) is heavily influenced by Smalltalk and championed 
> XP there. I always had strong interests in software systems design, 
> programming language design, typography, and user interface design. I feel 
> strongly for the concept of software craftsmanship.
> 
> My current job is nice, good pay, lots of independence ; after 6 years 
> working on the same project, I need some fresh intellectual stimulation. And 
> I was recently impressed by the presentation "Nothing is Something", by Sandi 
> Metz, who is heavily influenced by Smalltalk.
> 
> http://confreaks.tv/videos/bathruby2015-nothing-is-something
> 
> So, I here I came, bumbling my way around the system, looking for 
> intellectual stimulation, and for a way to make a positive contribution.
> 
> I was very impressed by the nice welcome I have received. And I see there is 
> lots of useful work to do here.
> 
> So that's where I come from when you see me chipping in the conversation here.
> 
> Regards.

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Presenting is storytelling."

Re: [Pharo-users] I am David Allouche, let me introduce myself.

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Welcome , David, thats a quite a resume. HyperCard looks like its shares
quite a lot in common with Smalltalk. From what you write I think you will
love Pharo, its a very active, passionate smalltalk community and Pharo is
moving forward very fast since we are constantly growing.

I think you love pharo and have great fun using it as I do. As Tudor said,
fire away your questions we love questions and we love to help newcomers
because we know how important is to grow.

I think when people referring to Smalltalk refer to Smalltalk as the
language or OOP itself, but thats only the tip of the iceberg, Pharo tries
to stay true to vision of smalltalk creating the virtual enviroment where
the user can easily create his or her own tools or modifying the existing
ones, something that I feel no other language out there can emulate because
they follow a non monolithic approach where there is a deep dichotomy
between language, libraries and the environment itself. You could say that
Smalltalk is the anti-Unix architecture , a great example of monolithic
design that works great in practice yet its easy to modify and extend.

Of course the big exception is Lisp which Smalltalk so close to as a
philosophy.

Whether this approach is good or bad for you, only you can decide , but is
certainly quite different and I think that is what it counts the most.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 11:53 PM Tudor Girba  wrote:

> Welcome!
>
> To get faster to the intellectual stimulation, pick a task / project and
> start asking questions. And have fun :).
>
> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
> > On Jan 10, 2016, at 11:37 PM, David Allouche  wrote:
> >
> > Hello folks.
> >
> > Some people have already seen me on Twitter and Slack, but I believe
> there might be some people on the mailing list that did not see those
> conversations.
> >
> > As I have done on Slack, I am writing this introduction so people have
> an idea where I come from and what is my business with Pharo.
> >
> > I am a professional programmer. My current job is tech on a small
> company I run with two associates (by the way, we are hiring a good Python
> web dev with a passion for good code). The product is a SaaS web
> application for recruiters. They call that an Application Tracking System,
> it is a workflow, communication and archival system for job applications
> and candidates.
> >
> > I started programming 25 years ago with HyperCard, and since I have at
> least played with Pascal, C, Prograph, asm68k, HP-48 (RPL, Saturn asm),
> Java, bash, C++, LaTeX, XSLT, Delphi, Scheme, elisp, JavaScript.
> >
> > I have contributed to GNU TeXmacs where I made important contributinos
> during about 2 years, as I completed by training as an software engineer,
> and worked at CNRS in Rennes. Then I got involved in GNU Arch (wrote a
> Python driver), Bazaar (bzr scm) where I worked with the founding team at
> Canonical while working on the version control aspect of launchpad.net.
> After that, I had mostly no contribution to free software, working on
> financial modeling at a bank and then on my current business. I made a
> presentation on SQLAlchemy at PyCon.fr 2015.
> >
> > I am a fan Design Patterns (GoF) and the Refactoring book. My mentor at
> Canonical (Robert Collins) is heavily influenced by Smalltalk and
> championed XP there. I always had strong interests in software systems
> design, programming language design, typography, and user interface design.
> I feel strongly for the concept of software craftsmanship.
> >
> > My current job is nice, good pay, lots of independence ; after 6 years
> working on the same project, I need some fresh intellectual stimulation.
> And I was recently impressed by the presentation "Nothing is Something", by
> Sandi Metz, who is heavily influenced by Smalltalk.
> >
> > http://confreaks.tv/videos/bathruby2015-nothing-is-something
> >
> > So, I here I came, bumbling my way around the system, looking for
> intellectual stimulation, and for a way to make a positive contribution.
> >
> > I was very impressed by the nice welcome I have received. And I see
> there is lots of useful work to do here.
> >
> > So that's where I come from when you see me chipping in the conversation
> here.
> >
> > Regards.
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> www.feenk.com
>
> "Presenting is storytelling."
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] I am David Allouche, let me introduce myself.

[Alexandre Bergel]

Welcome David!

Alexandre


> On Jan 10, 2016, at 6:37 PM, David Allouche  wrote:
> 
> Hello folks.
> 
> Some people have already seen me on Twitter and Slack, but I believe there 
> might be some people on the mailing list that did not see those conversations.
> 
> As I have done on Slack, I am writing this introduction so people have an 
> idea where I come from and what is my business with Pharo.
> 
> I am a professional programmer. My current job is tech on a small company I 
> run with two associates (by the way, we are hiring a good Python web dev with 
> a passion for good code). The product is a SaaS web application for 
> recruiters. They call that an Application Tracking System, it is a workflow, 
> communication and archival system for job applications and candidates.
> 
> I started programming 25 years ago with HyperCard, and since I have at least 
> played with Pascal, C, Prograph, asm68k, HP-48 (RPL, Saturn asm), Java, bash, 
> C++, LaTeX, XSLT, Delphi, Scheme, elisp, JavaScript.
> 
> I have contributed to GNU TeXmacs where I made important contributinos during 
> about 2 years, as I completed by training as an software engineer, and worked 
> at CNRS in Rennes. Then I got involved in GNU Arch (wrote a Python driver), 
> Bazaar (bzr scm) where I worked with the founding team at Canonical while 
> working on the version control aspect of launchpad.net. After that, I had 
> mostly no contribution to free software, working on financial modeling at a 
> bank and then on my current business. I made a presentation on SQLAlchemy at 
> PyCon.fr 2015.
> 
> I am a fan Design Patterns (GoF) and the Refactoring book. My mentor at 
> Canonical (Robert Collins) is heavily influenced by Smalltalk and championed 
> XP there. I always had strong interests in software systems design, 
> programming language design, typography, and user interface design. I feel 
> strongly for the concept of software craftsmanship.
> 
> My current job is nice, good pay, lots of independence ; after 6 years 
> working on the same project, I need some fresh intellectual stimulation. And 
> I was recently impressed by the presentation "Nothing is Something", by Sandi 
> Metz, who is heavily influenced by Smalltalk.
> 
> http://confreaks.tv/videos/bathruby2015-nothing-is-something
> 
> So, I here I came, bumbling my way around the system, looking for 
> intellectual stimulation, and for a way to make a positive contribution.
> 
> I was very impressed by the nice welcome I have received. And I see there is 
> lots of useful work to do here.
> 
> So that's where I come from when you see me chipping in the conversation here.
> 
> Regards.

-- 
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

[David Allouche]

I could argue about how I agree with you, but only in part.

But the simple fact is this: the documentation is advertised in large letter on 
this page: http://pharo.org/documentation

If it's broken, it should be fixed. If the people with the technical access to 
fix it do not care, it should be removed from such a highly visible page.

As it is, it is confusing for new users, who need it most, and reflects badly 
on the state of Pharo in general.

> On 10 Jan 2016, at 22:25, Serge Stinckwich  wrote:
> 
> Dear David,
> 
> yes this maybe broken, but most of the time, a Pharo developer will
> never have a look to such a static documentation.
> You can browse the class and the related methods very easily inside
> the Pharo image, without relying on an external tool.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Allouche  wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are rendered,
>> but the documentation does not display the messages, only their docstrings.
>> That makes it quite unusable.
>> 
>> http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/Kernel.html&classView=class/ProtoObject.html
>> 
>> I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, that's
>> confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand why that
>> was confusing...
>> 
>> Who can fix that?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

[John Pfersich]

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 10, 2016, at 06:08, Ben Coman  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Tudor Girba  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> We are about to integrate in Pharo a new member of the Glamorous Toolkit: 
>> the GTDebugger. As this is a significant change that might affect your 
>> workflow, here is some background information to help you deal with the 
>> change.
>> 
>> First, you should know that the change is not irreversible and it is easily 
>> possible to disabled the new debugger through a setting.
> 
> Can we do it the other way for Pharo 5 "Release"?  Keeping the existing 
> debugger as default and as desired people can enable GTDebugger.   I know 
> this limits exposure and slows uptake and feedback, but prior to this 
> announcement there has been *zero* community discussion of making this the 
> default.   I can't find the Pharo 5 roadmap/plan,  but I don't remember 
> GTDebugger being mentioned at all.   I worry how it looks to people 
> considering Pharo for big changes like this to be dropped out of the sky 
> without *public* forward *planning*.
> 
> A big UI change like this should happen *early* in a release cycle - because 
> then you have a *long* time for it to become stable for documentation.   Even 
> though Dimitris is keen, I can understand why its disheartening for Stef.   
> I'd hope the way is to introduce such big changes is as a technology preview 
> and have the *default* match the recently developed documentation. 
> 
> Note my problem is only with the default for the Pharo 5 "Release", so it 
> could be default now to kick start its exposure and revert the default a few 
> weeks before the Pharo 5 Release. And its not like you lose a whole year of 
> feedback by not being default in Pharo 5 Release.  The documentation using 
> newcomers who are most likely to use Pharo 5 "Release" probably wouldn't have 
> the confidence (or care) to provide the feedback you want anyway.  Many of 
> those in the community who would normally provide feedback will be follow 
> Pharo 6 bleeding edge anyway, so they'll that won't be stuck with the old 
> debugger.  Making GTDebugger the default early in Pharo 6 should still get 
> plenty of feedback from those that usually contribute.
> 
> btw, I am looking forward to using it for myself.  
> 
> cheers -ben
> 

+1

>  
>> However, please do take the time to provide us feedback if something does 
>> not work out for you. We want to know what can be improved and we try to 
>> react as fast as we can.
>> 
>> A practical change comes from the fact that the variables are manipulated 
>> through a GTInspector, which makes it cheaper to maintain in the longer run.
>> 
>> While the first thing that will capture the attention is the default generic 
>> interface, the real power comes from the moldable nature of the debugger. 
>> Like all other GT tools, GTDebugger is also moldable by design. This means 
>> that we can construct custom debuggers for specific libraries at small costs 
>> (often measured in a couple of hundred lines of code).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Here is an introductory overview blog post that also includes some links for 
>> further reading:
>> http://www.humane-assessment.com/blog/gtdebugger-in-pharo/
>> 
>> Please let us know what you think.
>