Re: Code of Conduct plan

2018-09-14 Thread Steve Litt
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:18:12 +
Martin Mueller  wrote:

> I have followed this list for a couple of years, have benefited
> several times from quick and helpful advice,  and wonder whether all
> this code of conduct stuff is a solution in search of a problem. 

No, it's not. Talk to anyone outside the mainstream in a way that it
would be costly, in money or safety, for them to proclaim their
differences from the rooftops.

> My
> grandchildren were taught that “please and thank you sound so
> nice  manners are important, be polite” sung to the tune of Frère
> Jacques. They don’t always remember it,  but a longer poem wouldn’t
> help.

And indeed, if everybody were taught these things and lived by them,
including not saying bad stuff about groups of people, not making jokes
about groups of people, and calling people what they want to be called,
there would be no need at all.

But there are people who think that a Geek gathering is a really good
place to grope females. There are people who have no problem piling on
the unfortunate, perhaps because their misfortunes are God's punishment
for their sins (then why not be nice and leave the punishment to God?).
There are those who just love to cause trouble. There are really bad
people out there, and we need to define what's allowed and what's not
so these people can't cause damage, and that's why we have CoCs.

As far as behavior in other venues, I'm sure there are people out there
who would object to some of the stuff in some of my books. I've tried
my best to make my books unhurtful, but truth be told, if my books
(which don't name or resemble anyone on this list) run afoul of the
CoC, I'd have to resign from the list. I suggest treading very
carefully when discussing, in the Postgres CoC, peoples' behavior in
other venues.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz



Re: Code of Conduct plan

2018-09-14 Thread Steve Litt
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:10:38 -0400
James Keener  wrote:

> > I understand the concern, however, if you look at how attacks happen
> >
> > it is frequently through other sites. Specifically under/poorly
> > moderated sites. For specific examples, people who have issues with
> > people on Quora will frequently go after them on Facebook and
> > Twitter.

The preceding's pretty simple. An attacker goes after an individual,
presumably without provocation and/or asymetrically. The attacked
person is on this mailing list. IMHO this attacker must choose between
continuing his attacks, and belonging to the Postgres community.

What's tougher is the person who attacks groups of people.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz



Re: Code of Conduct plan

2018-09-14 Thread Steve Litt
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:19:59 -0700
"Joshua D. Drake"  wrote:


> I agree that within Postgresql.org we must have a professional code
> of conduct but the idea that an arbitrary committee appointed by an 
> unelected board can decide the fate of a community member based on 
> actions outside of the community is a bit authoritarian don't you
> think?
> 
> JD

You know the member inspected by the committee is free to start an
alternative Postgres community, if things get that bad. A LUG I once
founded started getting too abusive in their email, so I started a
second LUG, where people like me could communicate without what we
considered overt extraneous bullshit.

If this committee truly becomes authoritative, as perceived by a
significant portion of membership, the organization will fork.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz



Re: Code of Conduct plan

2018-09-16 Thread Steve Litt
On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:00:31 +1200
Mark Kirkwood  wrote:


> a SJW agenda. 

>  the angry militant left.

Some people just can't stop themselves.

Which is a big reason for CoCs.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz



Re: Code of Conduct plan

2018-09-17 Thread Steve Litt
On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 08:27:48 -0700
"Joshua D. Drake"  wrote:

> On 09/17/2018 08:11 AM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote:
> > On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:52:34 +
> > Martin Mueller  wrote:
> >  
> >> ... The overreach is dubious on both practical and theoretical
> >> grounds. "Stick to your knitting " or the KISS principle seem good
> >> advice in this context.  
> > Moderated mailing lists ain't been broken all these years,
> > therefore they need fixing. Obviously.  
> 
> Folks,
> 
> At this point it is important to accept that the CoC is happening. We 
> aren't going to stop that. The goal now is to insure a CoC that is 
> equitable for all community members and that has appropriate 
> accountability. At hand it appears that major concern is the CoC
> trying to be authoritative outside of community channels. As well as
> wording that is a bit far reaching. Specifically I think people's
> main concern is these two sentences:
> 
> "To that end, we have established this Code of Conduct for community 
> interaction and participation in the project’s work and the community
> at large. This Code is meant to cover all interaction between
> community members, whether or not it takes place within
> postgresql.org infrastructure, so long as there is not another Code
> of Conduct that takes precedence (such as a conference's Code of
> Conduct)."
> 
> If we can constructively provide feedback about those two sentences, 
> great (or constructive feedback on other areas of the CoC). If we
> can't then this thread needs to stop. It has become unproductive.
> 
> My feedback is that those two sentences provide an overarching
> authority that .Org does not have the right to enforce and that it is
> also largely redundant because we allow that the idea that if another
> CoC exists, then ours doesn't apply. Well every single major
> collaboration channel we would be concerned with (including something
> like Blogger) has its own CoC within its Terms of use. That
> effectively neuters the PostgreSQL CoC within places like Slack,
> Facebook, Twitter etc...

The perfect is the enemy of the good. Whatever CoC is decided upon, it
will be updated later. If it's easier, for now, to pass it with
enforcement WITHIN the Postgres community, why not do that? If, later
on, we get instances of people retaliating, in other venues, for
positions taken in Postgres, that can be handled when it comes up.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz



Re: Code of Conduct plan

2018-09-17 Thread Steve Litt
On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 17:39:20 +0200
Chris Travers  wrote:


> Exactly.  And actually the first sentence is not new.  The second one
> is a real problem though.  I am going to try one last time at an
> additional alternative.
> 
> " To that end, we have established this Code of Conduct for community
> interaction and participation in the project’s work and the community
> at large.   This code of conduct covers all interaction between
> community members on the postgresql.org infrastructure.  Conduct
> outside the postgresql.org infrastructure may call the Code of
> Conduct committee to act as long as the interaction (or interaction
> pattern) is community-related, other parties are unable to act, and
> the Code of Conduct committee determines that it is in the best
> interest of the community to apply this Code of Conduct."

Chris,

Would you be satisfied with the CoC if the current 2nd paragraph of the
Introduction were replaced by the paragraph you wrote above?

 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz



Re: Code of Conduct

2018-09-19 Thread Steve Litt
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:30:56 +0200
ERR ORR  wrote:


> A CoC will inevitably lead to the project taken over by leftists,

Here we go again.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz



Re: PostgreSQL License

2019-09-19 Thread Steve Litt
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:20:14 -0500
Ron  wrote:

> Charging for *installing* PostgreSQL is not the same as charging for
> PostgreSQL.
> 
> Bottom line: you charge for *services**you provide* not for software
> that other people provide.

That makes a lot of sense. A head gasket costs about $25.00.
*Installing* the head gasket costs well over a thousand. As long as the
customer has the option to install it himself, you're selling your
services.

If you've modified PostgreSQL, as long as you offer the source code to
the customer and say "good luck installing it by yourself",  you can
charge to install it without breaking even the GNU GPL.

My understanding is the PostgreSQL license is more like the MIT
license, which actually allows one to modify the code and claim it as
proprietary.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt





Re: Redis 16 times faster than Postgres?

2019-09-29 Thread Steve Litt
On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 07:46:14 +1000
Nathan Woodrow  wrote:

> Redis is a in memory database so I would except it to be always much
> faster..

Is there a way to have Redis periodically update an on-disk backup?
That would be great, but otherwise you're at the mercy of your power
company (here in Central Florida it's routine for power to go down and
stay down for five hours).

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt





Re: Inherited an 18TB DB & need to backup

2020-05-17 Thread Steve Litt
On Fri, 15 May 2020 15:08:05 +0200
Christoph Berg  wrote:

> Re: Rory Campbell-Lange
> > On 15/05/20, Suhail Bamzena (suhailsa...@gmail.com) wrote:  
> > > Hello All,
> > > I have very recently inherited an 18 TB DB that is running
> > > version 9.2.  
> 
> Push hard to get that upgraded to a supported version.
> 
> Christoph

He can't change the version without getting at least one verified
backup. Can you imagine if installing the new version trashed
the database?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques




Re: Removing Last field from CSV string

2020-05-17 Thread Steve Litt
On Sat, 16 May 2020 23:18:57 +0800
Alex Magnum  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I have a string that I want to cut to 60 char and then remove the last
> field and comma.
> 
> substring('Class V,Class VI,Class VII,Competitive Exam,Class
> VIII,Class X,Class XI,Class IX,Class XII',1,60);
> 
> substring | Class V,Class VI,Class VII,Competitive Exam,Class
> VIII*,Class*
> 
> Now I try to remove the last  field and comma  ",Class"
> 
> To get  Class V,Class VI,Class VII,Competitive Exam,Class VIII
> 
> Is there a function or easy way to do this?
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you
> Alex

Assuming the CSV strings are in a file, my first thought would be to
get rid of the final field using AWK, and feed that into your import.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques




Re: External psql editor

2022-05-02 Thread Steve Litt
Tom Lane said on Mon, 02 May 2022 17:27:15 -0400

>Rich Shepard  writes:
>> On Mon, 2 May 2022, Reid Thompson wrote:  
>>> I believe that psql also uses readline, so my thought was that
>>> maybe these instructions could enable you to map the 'move'
>>> keystrokes that you're familiar with to be used while on the psql
>>> command line. A very quick test seems to indicate that you can.  
>
>> Nope. No difference.  
>
>Perhaps your psql is built against libedit rather than readline.

If this is indeed true, he can give his psql readline capabilities by
installing rlwrap and performing the following command:

rlwrap psql

HTH,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm




Re: Presentation tools used ?

2023-10-22 Thread Steve Litt
Achilleas Mantzios said on Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:50:10 +0300

>Hello All
>
>I am going to give a talk about PostgerSQL, so I'd like to ask you 
>people what do you use for your presentations, also I have no idea how 
>the remote control works to navigate through slides. I have seen it,
>but never came close to using one.
>
>I have access to google slides and libreoffice Impress.  What tools 
>would you suggest ? What's your setup ?

I use presentations in my work, both given by myself and given by
trainers. I can tell you Libreoffice Impress is absolute garbage. It
intermittently loses style definitions. As far as google slides, I know
nothing about them except I don't trust Google. Also, I'm not fan of
Software as a Service (SaaS) for non-big-enterprise usage. I prefer to
keep it all on my hard disk. That's where my PostgreSQL software
resides.

Beamer (a LaTeX package) is the Cadillac of the industry, but only if
you're willing to put in the work. I've done presentations in
VimOutliner, but it's not "pretty" and so is only appropriate for
certain audiences. I created Free Software called HTMLSlides, but it's
not easy to use. I don't recommend it.

If you don't want to use Beamer, my advice would be to research tools
that convert Markdown to slides. Markdown is lightning quick to author
in, very much unlike Beamer.

Two other suggestions:

1) Please have mercy on your audience members with poor vision, and use
   black type on white background. Yeah, it's not "pretty" and it's not
   "hip", but you won't lose people who can't read purple on blue.
   Likewise, use large fonts so everyone can read. If you need small
   fonts to reveal all your info, you need to split the slide in two.

2) Don't read from your slides. If it's necessary to read the slide,
   what I do is tell the audience to read the slide, and then after
   they've read it I ask for questions and give them answers. But
   typically, my slides are an overview, and my verbal presentation is
   a dialog between myself and the audience. 

HTH,

SteveT

Steve Litt 

Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21




Re: Presentation tools used ?

2023-10-24 Thread Steve Litt
Greg Stark said on Mon, 23 Oct 2023 04:05:28 -0400


>The main disadvantage of Slides is that as a WYSIWYG style editor
>you're designing each slide individually. If you later decide you want
>to use a smaller font or slide the main body up a bit or whatever you
>have to go back through all your slides making that change. It also
>doesn't do things like code highlighting and can't really handle
>anything but the simplest diagrams. So you'll end up with a lot of
>inlined images and then if you want to tweak anything in them you have
>to regenerate the images and replace them one by one.

If the preceding is acceptable, then I withdraw my comment about
LibreOffice being terrible. If you're willing to go without styles [1],
LibreOffice is easy as pie.

And since this isn't a pure Linux/BSD mailing list, let me add that MS
Powerpoint is not only easy as pie, but last time I used it (10 years
ago) it respected and preserved styles.

[1] LibreOffice has styles, but it frequently and arbitrarily loses
style definitions.

SteveT

Steve Litt 

Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21




Re: bottom / top posting

2021-06-09 Thread Steve Litt
Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) said on Wed, 9 Jun 2021 14:41:47 -0700

>> On Mon, Jun  7, 2021 at 07:53:30PM +0200, Francisco Olarte wrote:  
>>> ... properly scanning a top posted one takes much longer.  
>
>Not here.

Depends on whether the top-poster reiterates nouns instead of just
using pronouns, and whether he/she identifies what is being responded
to. Most don't. Hence the frustration.

>
>>> I find top-posting moderately offensive, like saying "I am not
>>> going to waste time to make your reading experience better".  
>
>Not here either.
>
>Top-posting has been the predominantly common practice in the business
>& government world for decades, & it is easy to adapt to.  

OF COURSE! In business you need the CYA of having the entire discussion
archived, and often the discussion is between two people. But a mailing
list is a mind-meld of tens or hundreds of people. Placing the response
directly below the text that prompted the response makes everything
crystal clear. But just one top-poster can blow up that whole clarity
for the remainder of the thread, making everything a data mine through
posts and guessing who meant what.



> Just like
>HTML eMail (within reason) & more than 80 columns on a line.  Somehow, 
>millions of ordinary people are able to adapt to this, 

in business contexts


> on very popular 
>network eMail providers, like Google groups & groups.io, as well as 
>their work environment. 

Yeah, google, microsoft and the rest of the
big boys make it much easier to top post. If they made interleave
posting easier, you'd be arguing for that right now, in all contexts
except businss.

>I suppose it comes from the practice in those environs when paper
>memos were the norm, & if you needed to attach the contents of other
>paper memos to your own for context, you stapled them to the BACK of
>your own.
>
>Of course, wherever (top/bottom) one posts, trimming is important,

Thank you!

People see mile long emails and blame interleave or bottom posting, when
what's to blame is a failure to remove material not germane to the
current responses. Have you ever noticed these guys who write their
last line, then leave a couple thousand lines of previous stuff, not at
all apropos to the current post, so you have to read thru all that
stuff to make sure there's nothing else? This isn't about bottom
posting, it's about laziness and/or not understanding communication.
 
>it's far less important with top-posting.  You usually don't have to 
>scroll down to get the immediate context, 

:-) The top-posted emails you and I have read must be incredibly
different. I usually find top-posts require an archaeological dig
through layers of emails past.

[snip]

>
>But then, I was VERY successful in my software development career, 
>consulting at about 30 companies (now retired).  Maybe working with 
>others without conflict on silly issues, had something to do with it.

I find nothing silly about clarity or the lack thereof. Imagine the
problems a project could face because person A was too lazy to
interleave post, and person B was tolerant of it and didn't ask enough
"what do you mean by" questions.

>
>This message would normally have been top-posted, but was
>bottom-posted to avoid offending or irritating people here. Seriously.

Thanks! Your message was crystal clear and easy to respond to.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques




Re: bottom / top posting

2021-06-10 Thread Steve Litt
Because otherwise it's hard to figure out what some top posters are
talking about.


Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul) said on Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:08:14 +

>All,
>
>First, I AM an old-timer, and prefer the top posting for a number of
>reasons.  I’ve tried the Digest versions of lists in the past and they
>didn’t quite work out (for me).
>
>Top post, newest on top, older stuff indented, can be clipped
>wherever, although I prefer to see everything if I need to, below. Why
>should I need to scroll down to see the newest stuff, especially in
>long threads. Top posting is very easy to understand what’s what,
>always see the latest stuff first, no scrolling to get going, if I
>want to see history, I scroll down, I prefer to see the whole thread
>at once, even the really long ones, for the context.  I tend to search
>for old stuff in the archives through Nabble which works great (for
>me).
>
>Alternatively, where I deem appropriate I will do inline
>posting/clipping, but I always announce that at the top (posting) of
>the response.
>
>My tarnished two cents worth . . .  :c)
>
>Bobb
>
>P.S.  BTW, I intentionally don’t use a big SIG in my Email because of
>my list participation.  I have no control over my companies addition
>of those “Think Before You Click . . .” placards either.  Only
>alternative there is to not use my Company account, which seems wrong
>to me for some reason  . . .  I could probably figure out some way to
>address those placards automatically, but haven’t tried as of yet.  I
>wonder if I could do it with a rule/scripting . . . .
>
>
>From: Vijaykumar Jain 
>Date: Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:06 AM
>To: pgsql-general 
>Subject: bottom / top posting
>
>Think Before You Click: This email originated outside our organization.
>
>I hear a lot of suggestions wrt bottom / top posting.
>
>only when i read this,
>PostgreSQL - general - Top posting | Threaded View
>(postgresql-archive.org)
>
>I got a feeling it sounded rude to the top post, despite me not even
>having an iota of intention to think that way. I was mostly used to
>tickets or chat. but as with chats, using CAPS was not known to me as
>shouting for a long time, when someone pointed out to me this is what
>others feel when they read.
>
>Will keep this in mind, for me as well as others who are not aware of
>the same.
>
>--
>Thanks,
>Vijay
>Mumbai, India




Re: PostgreSQL reference coffee mug

2021-07-28 Thread Steve Litt
Matthias Apitz said on Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:40:22 +0200

>El día martes, julio 27, 2021 a las 08:32:45p. m. +0200, Matthias
>Apitz escribió:
>
>> Thank you, Pavel. This is ofc to much for a coffee mug. For using it
>> as a Reference Card in paper form, it's a pity that it is not
>> written in English.
>> 
>> I'm working on my own for the mug and will publish the PDF and
>> libreoffice ODT version here. The max size of the image for the mug
>> is 7.5cm high x 16cm around the body of the coffee mug.
>> 
>
>Attached is a first version as PDF. Bugs/comments are welcome. Thanks.
>
>   matthias

Very, very nice! I'll be using this quite a bit.

Does there exist anywhere a Reference Card for PostgreSQL SQL commands?
My impression is that every database has its own slightly different
version of SQL that it responds to.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques




SQL queries as sets: was The tragedy of SQL

2021-09-14 Thread Steve Litt
Rich Shepard said on Tue, 14 Sep 2021 05:49:07 -0700 (PDT)

>On Mon, 13 Sep 2021, Guyren Howe wrote:
>
>> They are making a decent decision. SQL is a *fucking terrible*
>> language, which I don’t blame them for not wanting to learn.  
>
>>> SQL is not the problem. Problem are the devs. I love SQL. I hate
>>> orms. The problem with databases is people refuse to treat it as
>>> the entity it is and want to use their beautiful OO system. Problem
>>> is databases are not OO. We need to recognize that and treat
>>> databases as databases.  
>
>Guyren/Hemil,
>
>As a non-SQL expert who's used postgres since 1997 I've come to
>believe the basic issue is that SQL is based on sets, neither
>procedural or object oriented. Few people think in sets so they try to
>fit SQL into what they know rather than understand the how sets work.

Rich, could you please elaborate on SQL queries being based on sets? I
never thought of it that way, and would like to hear your related
thoughts.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques




Alter and move corresponding: was The tragedy of SQL

2021-09-15 Thread Steve Litt
Gavin Flower said on Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:49:39 +1200

>Hi Michael,

[snip]

>>
>> COBOL has strange verbs like 'move corresponding' that could 
>> accomplish complicated tasks in a few lines but you have to be
>> careful that you knew what you were asking for!  
>
>In our site that was banned as being too dangerous.
>
>And how about the 'lovely' ALTER GOTO construct???
>
>Children don't try to use these constructs at home, as even
>experienced adults get burnt using them!

I never Cobolled professionally, but took 3 semesters of Cobol and
Santa Monica Community College in Santa Monica, California USA. They
taught us move corresponding, I used it, it was handy. I'd use it again
if I were a Cobol professional.

As far as alter, in 1981, before I became a programmer, I asked my
Cobol Programmer friend if there was anything you could put in a
program that would get you fired. He said yes, the alter statement :-).
In my 3 semesters of Cobol, I never once used the Alter statement.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques




Test 501, please don't reply

2017-11-20 Thread Steve Litt


-- 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust



Procmail recipe for new setup

2017-11-20 Thread Steve Litt
Hi all,

The following procmail recipe works for me:

===
:0:
* ^(To|Cc).*pgsql-gene...@postgresql.org
.Postgres/
===

In the preceding, the slash at the end of the destination (.Postgres)
is because Procmail is inserting the mail into a maildir (the maildir
for my local Dovecot IMAP server). I use the (To|Cc) vocabulary instead
of something like a list-id email heading to accommodate those who for
some reason email me and copy the list, or email the list and copy me.
(To|Cc) seems to work under all conditions.

Any recipes based on [GENERAL] being in the subject have stopped
working because [GENERAL] is no longer in the subject.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust



Nightmare? was unsubscribe

2017-11-21 Thread Steve Litt
On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 10:36:11 +0100
Magnus Hagander  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 8:19 AM, Craig Ringer 
> wrote:

> 
> > But really, a nightmare? Yeah, it's a pain, but I think that's
> > laying it on a bit strong. Personally I appreciate the hard and
> > usually thankless work the infrastructure and admin team do.
> >  
> 
> Thanks!
> 

I agree with Craig Ringer: This is no nightmare. Heartbleed was a
nightmare; this thing was barely a bump in the road from the
perspective of an ordinary list member.

It would have been barely noticible, except for the avalanche of people
sending emails subjected "unsubscribe". Who does that? Yeah, the
unsubscribe link was missing from the emails, but it's easy enough to
go back to the 10/27 email to get that link, or look it up in a search
engine.

I'm on more than 50 lists, so this kind of thing happens all the time.
You notice that go into your inbox instead of the correct folder,  so
you investigate and adjust your filters (.procmailrc in my case) and
move on.

Thanks to all of you who have kept this list going for years and are
continuing to do so!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust