Re: [perl6/specs] 89cc32: Spec Bag.kxxv
Raiph Mellor wrote: > The .kxxv method name is a placeholder. Phew! Thanks for taking the time to respond and explain, Raiph. > The brief discussion that motivated introducing it is at: > http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-04-13#i_8582049 > > Larry has chimed in at: > http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-04-14#i_8582684 As I said before, I like the idea, just not the too-clever name. > Another discussion that's unfolding right now and could do with your > attention imo is: > https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/9213b1382078fee890ab9d74223f3c7e95942837 Thanks for the pointer, though they seem to have resolved that question reasonably well now. ;-) > All of the above illustrates an issue that we ought to address, namely > where we best discuss this stuff to make the best use of your time: For the past few years I've been staying out of the discussion, quietly watching every doc commit, and commenting (either directly to Larry, or else on this list) whenever I was alarmed, confused, or worried by something. > 1. For the last few years almost all discussion is entirely on #perl6. Which seems to be working extremely well...just not for me. I can't manage to track these discussions (even via the logs). I find the interleaving of multiple threads utterly impossible to cope with. > The above arrangement works for us and $Larry. But I'm thinking we might > want to go back to @Larry with both you and him and figure out how we > make that work for you. You should first ask $Larry if he wants to go back to @Larry. ;-) Meanwhile, I'm reasonably happy being just a sanity check on spec commits. If there's greater need of me than that, perhaps I could also be a kind of evil djinn, to be conjured by emailed pointers (such as you so kindly provided) in cases of dire need. :-) > Did you see that lizmat has taken a stab at implementing 'is cached' -- > because she saw that that's the one unimplemented thing in some code > you recently published? She said she was going to raise the issue. I'm delighted to see her take it further than that. The lack of "is cached" was the sole point-of-failure in my "Perl 6 for CS" talk. > How confident are you that your all-in-one CS teaching platform concept > will be taken up by some educational institutions? What timeframe are > you thinking is involved here? Are you thinking P6 is already ready for it? I suspect that Rakudo-on-MoarVM is now (or very soon will be) fast enough and complete enough. It only needs to be sufficiently easy to install (e.g. a standard part of Rakudo*), which I understand is very close now. Of course, another 6-12 months of polishing...both of the specs and of the implementation...wouldn't go amiss either. In particular, the concurrency specs and implementation need to be a little more stable and tested. I have no confidence yet, however, that Perl 6 will be widely taken up as a CS teaching language. I think the presentation I made was compelling enough, but I've only given it at one institution, and my experience is that language decisions rarely get made on the basis of technical merit, or pedagogical merit... or even on the basis of mere pedagogical convenience. Rather, the decision on a teaching language usually reflects either the personal biases of the individual teacher, or those of the curriculum committee, or else mirrors the market demand of the local community. How else do we explain the awful languages that are so often taught in our universities. :-( > I don't think we're there yet but it seems like the perfect initial goal for > P6-as-a-product. I do think Perl 6 is an incredibly good fit for teaching both CS in general and programming paradigms in particular. And, if we could get it into schools, it would be a huge boost in its exposure and popularity. I'm going to continue to refine my presentation, and offer it at any educational institutions I can convince to host it in the various cities I will be visiting over the next twelve months. We'll see if I get any traction. Damian
Re: Perl 6 in CS (Was: [perl6/specs] 89cc32: Spec Bag.kxxv)
Damian Conway writes: > I have no confidence yet, however, that Perl 6 will be widely taken up > as a CS teaching language. ... the decision on a teaching language > usually reflects either the personal biases of the individual teacher, > or those of the curriculum committee, or else mirrors the market > demand of the local community. How else do we explain the awful > languages that are so often taught in our universities. :-( A university I'm familiar with taught introductory programming in the 90s using Pascal, chosen for its pedagogical merits, then taught OO using C++. But students, and potential students, were put off by the idea of learning Pascal, seen as an irrelevant language. So in the late 90s they switched to teaching C++ as a first language. Shortly afterwards they found would-be applicants on open days were querying why they were teaching C++ when rival universities offered Java, seen as what they needed to learn for getting jobs. So a few years later, they switched to Java. In other words, the language chosen for teaching introductory programming was determined by the views and misconceptions of 16-year-olds! However, the staff teaching that module didn't feel that Java was a good choice as an introductory language, so they asked the higher-ups to be able to put some Python in there too, as an example of a different programming language. This was agreed, so long as the course was still marketed as teaching Java, and just happened to include some Python along the way. (This was over 10 years ago, when Python wasn't as widespread or recognized as it is now.) I think that over time the amount of Python increased. So maybe the situation isn't completely without hope. Smylers -- Why drug companies shouldn't be allowed to hide research results that they don't like: http://gu.com/p/3zat8 — UK gov wasted millions on Tamiflu Sign the AllTrials petition: http://www.alltrials.net/
[perl6/specs] dda1c4: Split off .rotor from .buffering
Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/perl6/specs Commit: dda1c40751479a84094a3082376f10d23288fa44 https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/dda1c40751479a84094a3082376f10d23288fa44 Author: Elizabeth Mattijsen Date: 2014-04-21 (Mon, 21 Apr 2014) Changed paths: M S17-concurrency.pod Log Message: --- Split off .rotor from .buffering
[perl6/specs] 13869e: De-TAB
Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/perl6/specs Commit: 13869e3e624fd924172ae195a3f4d181da442e71 https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/13869e3e624fd924172ae195a3f4d181da442e71 Author: Elizabeth Mattijsen Date: 2014-04-21 (Mon, 21 Apr 2014) Changed paths: M S32-setting-library/Containers.pod Log Message: --- De-TAB
[perl6/specs] 9f36e0: s/buffering/batch/ jnthn++
Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/perl6/specs Commit: 9f36e02782b6351b5efa5f6350c39dcff2490a7a https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/9f36e02782b6351b5efa5f6350c39dcff2490a7a Author: Elizabeth Mattijsen Date: 2014-04-21 (Mon, 21 Apr 2014) Changed paths: M S17-concurrency.pod Log Message: --- s/buffering/batch/ jnthn++
[perl6/specs] b8a36c: Some additions/improvements to Supply spec.
Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/perl6/specs Commit: b8a36cb66cd11761aa282266f9b408c52a212a5b https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/b8a36cb66cd11761aa282266f9b408c52a212a5b Author: jnthn Date: 2014-04-21 (Mon, 21 Apr 2014) Changed paths: M S17-concurrency.pod Log Message: --- Some additions/improvements to Supply spec. Subject to review, of course.
[perl6/specs] 276721: Spec Supply.list
Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/perl6/specs Commit: 276721dd31e7c9d1ef920d61ffbe678cf6419654 https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/276721dd31e7c9d1ef920d61ffbe678cf6419654 Author: Elizabeth Mattijsen Date: 2014-04-21 (Mon, 21 Apr 2014) Changed paths: M S17-concurrency.pod Log Message: --- Spec Supply.list
Re: [perl6/specs] 89cc32: Spec Bag.kxxv
>> 1. For the last few years almost all discussion is entirely on #perl6. > > Which seems to be working extremely well...just not for me. I can't > manage to track these discussions (even via the logs). I find the > interleaving of multiple threads utterly impossible to cope with. > Thank you for saying that. I thought only I was confused and/or stupid. > I do think Perl 6 is an incredibly good fit for teaching both CS in general > and programming paradigms in particular. To catch on, Perl 6 has to do at least one of two things; a) solve some current general problem uniquely well, (as Perl 4 did for system administration and 5 for Web work). b) get stratified into digestible layers (or chunks), so that it's not necessary to grok all 29 synopses (or however many there are now), in order to start doing useful things. It's an awesome language, which is exactly the problem. "Inspiring awe" is not far from inducing panic and terror, especially in people who aren't feeling too confident in the first place. We want to be accessible to the people who start looking nervous when the modulus operator is added to the basic four mathematical signs as operators. Just as K&R starts with "Hello, World", producing visible results from the beginning, there has to be a path from basic operations enabling mastery of mundane chores. Increasing in complexity and abstraction, to the vaporous worlds of operating systems, compilers, and program generators. It won't be linear, more like a spiral, but each stage will be useful. That provides the reward that lures the student deeper into our clutches. (Sorry, the evil mastermind got out of his cage for a moment.) I've made a number of futile stabs at mapping a route, but the language keeps wriggling and morphing as it develops. It's bad enough climbing a steep cliff, without adding tectonic activity. Sorry if I'm being boringly repetitive, but I do see complexity as a barrier to world domination.
Re: [perl6/specs] 89cc32: Spec Bag.kxxv
> It's an awesome language, which is exactly the problem. "Inspiring > awe" is not far from inducing panic and terror, especially in people > who aren't feeling too confident in the first place. We want to be > accessible to the people who start looking nervous when the modulus > operator is added to the basic four mathematical signs as operators. This is an important point. And an area in which I believe Perl 6 can excel. I do think it will be possible to specify (and even enforce) suitable subsets of the language, to make it approachable by the easily over-awed. > Sorry if I'm being boringly repetitive, but I do see complexity as a > barrier to world domination. No, it's an important point. I get very excited about the power and sophistication of Perl 6. But I also get very excited about the straightforwardness and simplicity it can offer. It's important that we market both aspects...and to the right audiences. For example, at OSCON this year I'm concentrating on the simplicity of Perl 6: http://www.oscon.com/oscon2014/public/schedule/detail/33839 Damian
Re: [perl6/specs] 89cc32: Spec Bag.kxxv
On Apr 22, 2014, at 7:21 PM, Damian Conway wrote: >> It's an awesome language, which is exactly the problem. "Inspiring >> awe" is not far from inducing panic and terror, especially in people >> who aren't feeling too confident in the first place. We want to be >> accessible to the people who start looking nervous when the modulus >> operator is added to the basic four mathematical signs as operators. > > This is an important point. And an area in which I believe Perl 6 can > excel. I do think it will be possible to specify (and even enforce) suitable > subsets of the language, to make it approachable by the easily over-awed. > > >> Sorry if I'm being boringly repetitive, but I do see complexity as a >> barrier to world domination. > > No, it's an important point. I get very excited about the power and > sophistication of Perl 6. But I also get very excited about the > straightforwardness and simplicity it can offer. It's important that we > market both aspects...and to the right audiences. > > For example, at OSCON this year I'm concentrating on the simplicity > of Perl 6: > >http://www.oscon.com/oscon2014/public/schedule/detail/33839 > > Damian One area that Perl dominated early on (but python has been making tremendous strides in): science. For example Perl (4/5) was the go-to language for biologists simply b/c it was easy to pick up and get started right away. Basically, anything that requires munging tons of data in somewhat defined but non-standard formats (think: DNA sequence formats like GenBank, FASTA, FASTQ, etc) would be a good target, particularly if one can define grammars to parse such data that could be passed on to various actions. That’s only the start, really (NCI, types, roles, etc). chris
