Re: [opensource-dev] build instructions overhaul

[WolfPup Lowenhar]

There is a page specifically aimed at open sourced Viewer2 and Snowglobe2
all though it is only instructions for working with VS in a windows
environment but any way here is the link to that wiki page.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Microsoft_Windows_Builds

 

 

From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Boroondas
Gupte
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 2:39 PM
To: OpenSource-Dev
Subject: [opensource-dev] build instructions overhaul

 

Hi all

As discussed
  at
the Thursday meeting (and demanded by new community members on this list, on
IRC and at previous meetings), we should update the build instructions on
the wiki to reflect the steps needed to compile Viewer 2 and Snowglobe 2.
While doing so, it'd be good to also restructure the documentation, so that
the relevant information can be found more easily and quickly.

Currently, instructions, tips and hints are scattered over a lot of
different wiki articles, so I think we should first collect all the
currently available information (even if outdated). It was suggested to use
a wiki category to tag relevant articles. I noticed that we already have
Category:Compiling_viewer
 ,
containing a lot of pages that might be relevant.

If there are no compelling reasons to use another (new) category for this,
I'll start adding the remaining relevant pages I know of to this category
and encourage all of you to do the same. Once most relevant information is
collected, we can decide how to newly separate it into different pages and
add the missing bits for the latest sources.

cheers
Boroondas

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2848 - Release Date: 05/01/10
14:27:00

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Re: [opensource-dev] [JIRA] 'Affects viewer' use

[Q Linden]

I don't see why we have that instruction. If you've tested on multiple 
versions, we'd love to know that. So yes, affects version can be 
multi-selected. You should only check items that you actually have tested.

I'll ask someone to modify the text there.

Q

On May 1, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Opensource Obscure wrote:

> 
> What I'm supposed to do when I verify that a bug filed
> against Viewer 2.0 also affects Viewer 2.0.1 ?
> 
> Should I really file a new, almost identical new ticket 
> for Viewer 2.0.1?
> 
> This seems to be the meaning of the "Please ONLY select
> a single version" phrase that appears near the 
> "Affect Version" field (or not - see below)
> 
> However, this doesn't look feasible and sustainable to me:
> it's time-consuming and -worst- all feedback, comments 
> and votes get lost.
> 
> Admittely, I never acted this way, and I always checked
> more than a version when appropriate; also, my feeling 
> is that is the common behaviour on JIRA.
> 
> Maybe I'm just wrong about Releases and Versions? :)
> maybe what the phrase actually means is that using 
> the same ticket for Viewer 2.0 and Viewer 2.0.1 is OK;
> but if the same behaviour affects Snowglobe or other 
> branches, a new  different ticket should be filed?
> 
> thanks in advance for clearing my mind..
> 
> opensource obscure
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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Glen Canaday]

My mistake. I was under the impression that anything not on the list 
wasn't supposed to be able to get on agni. I must have read it wrong.

--GC

On 05/01/2010 09:50 PM, Maya Remblai wrote:
> Glen Canaday wrote:
>
>> [14:57] GC Continental: anything not on the TPV list as of yesterday
>> can't connect to the grid at all. This one does.
>>  
> Just wanted to point out, that isn't true. The TPV list is merely for
> advertisement, and an unlisted viewer can still connect. Cool SL and
> Rainbow, for instance, are not listed but are TPV compliant and have no
> trouble connecting.
>
> Maya
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[opensource-dev] [VWR] Compiled SG 1.4 not starting / .dll file issue

[Jonathan Welch]

I've compiled SG 1.4 on Windows XP SP2, first with VC 2005 Express
Edition and then with SP1 installed.

When I try to start the program, either from a link or from within VC,
I get an error:
This application has failed to start because the application
configuration is incorrect.  Reinstalling the application may fix this problem.

Using the Dependency Walker utility it reported msvcr80.dll and
msvcp80.dll were missing.

I installed the vcredist_x86.exe kit, which is supposed to supply
these files / fix the problem.

I took a copy of the two .dll files from a working viewer directory
(version 8.0.50727.4053) and have
put them where I thought they might help:
\indra
\indra\build-vc80
\indra\build-vc80\newview
\indra\build-vc80\newview\release
\indra\build-vc80\newview\relwithdebinfo
\indra\newview
\libraries\i686-win32\lib_release
\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release

I also tried putting the built .exe file in the same folder as the
v1.4 Snowglobe from LL.

None of this has worked.  If anyone has some idea of how to fix this I
would be very happy to hear of it.  Is there something wrong with a
manifest file?

Stymied,

-jonathan
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Re: [opensource-dev] [WEB] Viewer 2 JIRA meta issues

[Frans]

Thanks! :)

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Opensource Obscure wrote:

>
> I created some issues in PJIRA about Viewer 2:
>
> Viewer 2 problems meta-issue
> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19310
> (I thought it already existed, but I couldn't find it)
>
> Viewer 2 Inventory problems meta-issue
> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19308
>
>
> also see:
>
> Meta-Issue: Viewer 2 Sidebar Issues
> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17012
>
> Meta-Issue: Summary of non persistant settings in the Beta Viewer 2.0
> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17387
>
> Meta-Issue: Viewer 2.0 Chatbar
> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17172
>
>
> and also
> Meta-Issue: Meta-Issue Organization
> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-398
>
>
> Please check these out,
> link your favorite Viewer 2 bug reports as appropriate,
> comment, vote, spread the word, etc.
>
>
> opensource obscure
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-- 
Jeroen Frans
Virtual World Technology Specialist.
VesuviusGroup.com
SL: Frans Charming
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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

according to Skill LL knows how the system works and has not taken any
measures to prevent it, which indicates they are ok with it

On 1/5/2010 18:50, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
> Is that thing really exploiting a quicktime hack?
> I.e. Trying to protect Computer Crimes Law by violating the very same laws.
> If so, isn't that against the LL TOS and shouldn't it be taken down by LL?
> The below reviews have me raising eyebrows...
> 
> https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=2138
> 424&allReviews=1#reviews
> 
> "Sandrina Koolhoven on 2010-03-22
> 27 of 71 members found this review helpful.
> "THIS system is indeed using a hack through Quicktime that gains access to a
> persons hard drive. This system has been torn down and looked at. Scanning
> yours or my HDD is a clear violation of USA Privacy laws and only LL has a
> right to know who your alts are, not the designer of this system."...
> 
> Dekadance Mint on 2010-03-17
> 79 of 165 members found this review helpful.
> "Easiest method to avoid detection by this device requires no compiling or
> programming, just add "-noquicktime" into the short cut, and this device
> can't detect you untill Skills finds a new method of detection. I say this
> tidbit of info because the appeal process is atrocious and horrible from my
> experience."
> 
> 
> On 4/30/10 10:06 PM, "Tigro Spottystripes" 
> wrote:
> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> there is Skill's CDS system
>>
>> On 1/5/2010 01:45, Andromeda Quonset wrote:
>>> I went there.  I saw a "GC Continental" was on the ban list for both
>>> of the sims.  That was the closest I could find to you.
>>>
>>> I am not aware of there being any autobanners that ban by client that
>>> any landowner or sim owner can use.  I don't know of any way to
>>> detect via script or estate or land controls what client someone is even
>>> using.
>>>
>>> I do know there is maintenance going on, and regions being
>>> restarted.  Perhaps you were simply caught in a sim restart.
>>>
>>> At 09:49 PM 4/30/2010, Glen Canaday wrote:
 There are autobanners that ban by client, no? Full-sim, estate ban?

 I'm on Snowglobe 2 and just got banned from both The Loft and The Loft
 II; both are furniture store sims. Can someone TP there and test if they
 get banned? If someone is banning by presence on the TPV list, then snow
 needs to be on it rather than listed separately... (tho I could have
 sworn it WAS on it)...

 --GC
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Carlo Wood]

On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 06:53:49PM -0400, Glen Canaday wrote:
> Though WHY anyone wouldn't want to come HERE to talk about client 
> detection is far beyond my grasp. That's like AVG not wanting to talk to 
> Microsoft.

Probably because it's a moronic asshole, who is only 
interested in making money with the product and doesn't
care if 1% are false positives.  Not until LL comes
knocking on their door anyway.

I guess that the only reasonable response (unless LL
wants to get involved) is to find out how the detection
works and write a patch that makes SURE it won't be
detected (which then can be used by everyone, but malicious
viewers will do this anyway, whether or not we do or not).

So, how does this thing "detect" the mentioned "signature"?

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Malachi]

as far as i can tell the detection is done by loading a url on the client.  
the browser in the client loads the url which is a server side script that  
rips apart the header of the post and searches for a certain part which  
happens to be the name of the client. if the name of the client matches  
the preset list created by skills then the name and uuid of the avatar is  
sent back to the system inworld and triggers the banning process on that  
avatar.

this exact same method is used in various other detection systems already  
on the market. some even allow the end user to customize which clients  
they do not allow. i do believe that any system that is set up to ban or  
remove unwanted clients should be left at the users choice. personally  
there are a few clients that i do no tolerate anywhere near me. while  
others i dont mind. but im not going to give someone else the right to ban  
people from my land because they dont like the client those users are  
using. Skills is not a Linden and should not have the authority to decide  
which clients are allowed and which ones are not.

On Sun, 02 May 2010 15:56:02 -0300, Carlo Wood  wrote:

> On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 06:53:49PM -0400, Glen Canaday wrote:
>> Though WHY anyone wouldn't want to come HERE to talk about client
>> detection is far beyond my grasp. That's like AVG not wanting to talk to
>> Microsoft.
>
> Probably because it's a moronic asshole, who is only
> interested in making money with the product and doesn't
> care if 1% are false positives.  Not until LL comes
> knocking on their door anyway.
>
> I guess that the only reasonable response (unless LL
> wants to get involved) is to find out how the detection
> works and write a patch that makes SURE it won't be
> detected (which then can be used by everyone, but malicious
> viewers will do this anyway, whether or not we do or not).
>
> So, how does this thing "detect" the mentioned "signature"?
>


-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Rob Nelson]

The only way to reliably detect a client is if the client sends an MD5
hash of the executable to the login server, and that function was
removed ages ago from the login process due to ease of spoofing.

Requiring a unique login channel requires manual intervention to change
the login channel from the official LL channel to the unique one
required by the TPV, so malicious developers don't even have to lift a
finger in order to bypass detection.  

The entire system is flawed, and I'm sure LL knows this.

On Sun, 2010-05-02 at 20:56 +0200, Carlo Wood wrote:
> On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 06:53:49PM -0400, Glen Canaday wrote:
> > Though WHY anyone wouldn't want to come HERE to talk about client 
> > detection is far beyond my grasp. That's like AVG not wanting to talk to 
> > Microsoft.
> 
> Probably because it's a moronic asshole, who is only 
> interested in making money with the product and doesn't
> care if 1% are false positives.  Not until LL comes
> knocking on their door anyway.
> 
> I guess that the only reasonable response (unless LL
> wants to get involved) is to find out how the detection
> works and write a patch that makes SURE it won't be
> detected (which then can be used by everyone, but malicious
> viewers will do this anyway, whether or not we do or not).
> 
> So, how does this thing "detect" the mentioned "signature"?
> 


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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

AFAIK only LL (and someone intercepting network communications) knows
what channel some client is using

On 2/5/2010 18:42, Rob Nelson wrote:
> The only way to reliably detect a client is if the client sends an MD5
> hash of the executable to the login server, and that function was
> removed ages ago from the login process due to ease of spoofing.
> 
> Requiring a unique login channel requires manual intervention to change
> the login channel from the official LL channel to the unique one
> required by the TPV, so malicious developers don't even have to lift a
> finger in order to bypass detection.  
> 
> The entire system is flawed, and I'm sure LL knows this.
> 
> On Sun, 2010-05-02 at 20:56 +0200, Carlo Wood wrote:
>> On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 06:53:49PM -0400, Glen Canaday wrote:
>>> Though WHY anyone wouldn't want to come HERE to talk about client 
>>> detection is far beyond my grasp. That's like AVG not wanting to talk to 
>>> Microsoft.
>>
>> Probably because it's a moronic asshole, who is only 
>> interested in making money with the product and doesn't
>> care if 1% are false positives.  Not until LL comes
>> knocking on their door anyway.
>>
>> I guess that the only reasonable response (unless LL
>> wants to get involved) is to find out how the detection
>> works and write a patch that makes SURE it won't be
>> detected (which then can be used by everyone, but malicious
>> viewers will do this anyway, whether or not we do or not).
>>
>> So, how does this thing "detect" the mentioned "signature"?
>>
> 
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Skills Hak]

Um, please don't confuse this incident with CDS which doesn't ban clients
arbitrarily, this seems to be about a similar system of a more
unscrupulous "competitor". There isn't even a copybot client with
Snowglobe 2.0.0
() (CommunityDeveloper) as base we are aware of, so not sure why
zFire Xue is banning it.

> The below reviews have me raising eyebrows...

The people with bad reviews are mostly copybotters who have been
banned by the system and are coming up with crazy quicktime hack
theories, Dekadance Mint isn't even in search any more.

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
 wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> according to Skill LL knows how the system works and has not taken any
> measures to prevent it, which indicates they are ok with it
>
> On 1/5/2010 18:50, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
>> Is that thing really exploiting a quicktime hack?
>> I.e. Trying to protect Computer Crimes Law by violating the very same laws.
>> If so, isn't that against the LL TOS and shouldn't it be taken down by LL?
>> The below reviews have me raising eyebrows...
>>
>> https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=2138
>> 424&allReviews=1#reviews
>>
>> "Sandrina Koolhoven on 2010-03-22
>> 27 of 71 members found this review helpful.
>> "THIS system is indeed using a hack through Quicktime that gains access to a
>> persons hard drive. This system has been torn down and looked at. Scanning
>> yours or my HDD is a clear violation of USA Privacy laws and only LL has a
>> right to know who your alts are, not the designer of this system."...
>>
>> Dekadance Mint on 2010-03-17
>> 79 of 165 members found this review helpful.
>> "Easiest method to avoid detection by this device requires no compiling or
>> programming, just add "-noquicktime" into the short cut, and this device
>> can't detect you untill Skills finds a new method of detection. I say this
>> tidbit of info because the appeal process is atrocious and horrible from my
>> experience."
>>
>>
>> On 4/30/10 10:06 PM, "Tigro Spottystripes" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA512
>>>
>>> there is Skill's CDS system
>>>
>>> On 1/5/2010 01:45, Andromeda Quonset wrote:
 I went there.  I saw a "GC Continental" was on the ban list for both
 of the sims.  That was the closest I could find to you.

 I am not aware of there being any autobanners that ban by client that
 any landowner or sim owner can use.  I don't know of any way to
 detect via script or estate or land controls what client someone is even
 using.

 I do know there is maintenance going on, and regions being
 restarted.  Perhaps you were simply caught in a sim restart.

 At 09:49 PM 4/30/2010, Glen Canaday wrote:
> There are autobanners that ban by client, no? Full-sim, estate ban?
>
> I'm on Snowglobe 2 and just got banned from both The Loft and The Loft
> II; both are furniture store sims. Can someone TP there and test if they
> get banned? If someone is banning by presence on the TPV list, then snow
> needs to be on it rather than listed separately... (tho I could have
> sworn it WAS on it)...
>
> --GC
>>
>>
>>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEAREKAAYFAkvdyaEACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmVc1wCfYZUiiBiyew8MkMm5jv8OvIsW
> xvIAn1j/OPBoXl8BhyAZ3dm71zDKii1+
> =YLlk
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

>From that chat log it seems the banning system in question (not CDS)
uses heuristics, it banned that person for using a rare client, unless
i've misunderstood what was said there.

On 2/5/2010 19:01, Skills Hak wrote:
> Um, please don't confuse this incident with CDS which doesn't ban clients
> arbitrarily, this seems to be about a similar system of a more
> unscrupulous "competitor". There isn't even a copybot client with
> Snowglobe 2.0.0
> () (CommunityDeveloper) as base we are aware of, so not sure why
> zFire Xue is banning it.
> 
>> The below reviews have me raising eyebrows...
> 
> The people with bad reviews are mostly copybotters who have been
> banned by the system and are coming up with crazy quicktime hack
> theories, Dekadance Mint isn't even in search any more.
> 
> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
>  wrote:
> according to Skill LL knows how the system works and has not taken any
> measures to prevent it, which indicates they are ok with it
> 
> On 1/5/2010 18:50, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
 Is that thing really exploiting a quicktime hack?
 I.e. Trying to protect Computer Crimes Law by violating the very same laws.
 If so, isn't that against the LL TOS and shouldn't it be taken down by LL?
 The below reviews have me raising eyebrows...

 https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=2138
 424&allReviews=1#reviews

 "Sandrina Koolhoven on 2010-03-22
 27 of 71 members found this review helpful.
 "THIS system is indeed using a hack through Quicktime that gains access to 
 a
 persons hard drive. This system has been torn down and looked at. Scanning
 yours or my HDD is a clear violation of USA Privacy laws and only LL has a
 right to know who your alts are, not the designer of this system."...

 Dekadance Mint on 2010-03-17
 79 of 165 members found this review helpful.
 "Easiest method to avoid detection by this device requires no compiling or
 programming, just add "-noquicktime" into the short cut, and this device
 can't detect you untill Skills finds a new method of detection. I say this
 tidbit of info because the appeal process is atrocious and horrible from my
 experience."


 On 4/30/10 10:06 PM, "Tigro Spottystripes" 
 wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> there is Skill's CDS system
>
> On 1/5/2010 01:45, Andromeda Quonset wrote:
>> I went there.  I saw a "GC Continental" was on the ban list for both
>> of the sims.  That was the closest I could find to you.
>>
>> I am not aware of there being any autobanners that ban by client that
>> any landowner or sim owner can use.  I don't know of any way to
>> detect via script or estate or land controls what client someone is even
>> using.
>>
>> I do know there is maintenance going on, and regions being
>> restarted.  Perhaps you were simply caught in a sim restart.
>>
>> At 09:49 PM 4/30/2010, Glen Canaday wrote:
>>> There are autobanners that ban by client, no? Full-sim, estate ban?
>>>
>>> I'm on Snowglobe 2 and just got banned from both The Loft and The Loft
>>> II; both are furniture store sims. Can someone TP there and test if they
>>> get banned? If someone is banning by presence on the TPV list, then snow
>>> needs to be on it rather than listed separately... (tho I could have
>>> sworn it WAS on it)...
>>>
>>> --GC



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>>

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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Armin Weatherwax]

Tigro Spottystripes schrieb:
> AFAIK only LL (and someone intercepting network communications) knows
> what channel some client is using
Yes and no - it is also transmitted with the useragent of the build-in 
webbrowser. 

Armin
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Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client

[Malachi]

then what exactly does cds ban? if no clients? because as long as you only  
use emerald or second life then you wont get banned by cds. if you start  
dabbling on other clients you get banned. so what does cds ban if no  
clients?
On Sun, 02 May 2010 19:01:19 -0300, Skills Hak  
 wrote:

> Um, please don't confuse this incident with CDS which doesn't ban clients
> arbitrarily, this seems to be about a similar system of a more
> unscrupulous "competitor". There isn't even a copybot client with
> Snowglobe 2.0.0
> () (CommunityDeveloper) as base we are aware of, so not sure why
> zFire Xue is banning it.
>
>> The below reviews have me raising eyebrows...
>
> The people with bad reviews are mostly copybotters who have been
> banned by the system and are coming up with crazy quicktime hack
> theories, Dekadance Mint isn't even in search any more.
>
> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
>  wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> according to Skill LL knows how the system works and has not taken any
>> measures to prevent it, which indicates they are ok with it
>>
>> On 1/5/2010 18:50, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
>>> Is that thing really exploiting a quicktime hack?
>>> I.e. Trying to protect Computer Crimes Law by violating the very same  
>>> laws.
>>> If so, isn't that against the LL TOS and shouldn't it be taken down by  
>>> LL?
>>> The below reviews have me raising eyebrows...
>>>
>>> https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=2138
>>> 424&allReviews=1#reviews
>>>
>>> "Sandrina Koolhoven on 2010-03-22
>>> 27 of 71 members found this review helpful.
>>> "THIS system is indeed using a hack through Quicktime that gains  
>>> access to a
>>> persons hard drive. This system has been torn down and looked at.  
>>> Scanning
>>> yours or my HDD is a clear violation of USA Privacy laws and only LL  
>>> has a
>>> right to know who your alts are, not the designer of this system."...
>>>
>>> Dekadance Mint on 2010-03-17
>>> 79 of 165 members found this review helpful.
>>> "Easiest method to avoid detection by this device requires no  
>>> compiling or
>>> programming, just add "-noquicktime" into the short cut, and this  
>>> device
>>> can't detect you untill Skills finds a new method of detection. I say  
>>> this
>>> tidbit of info because the appeal process is atrocious and horrible  
>>> from my
>>> experience."
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/30/10 10:06 PM, "Tigro Spottystripes"  
>>> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512

 there is Skill's CDS system

 On 1/5/2010 01:45, Andromeda Quonset wrote:
> I went there.  I saw a "GC Continental" was on the ban list for both
> of the sims.  That was the closest I could find to you.
>
> I am not aware of there being any autobanners that ban by client that
> any landowner or sim owner can use.  I don't know of any way to
> detect via script or estate or land controls what client someone is  
> even
> using.
>
> I do know there is maintenance going on, and regions being
> restarted.  Perhaps you were simply caught in a sim restart.
>
> At 09:49 PM 4/30/2010, Glen Canaday wrote:
>> There are autobanners that ban by client, no? Full-sim, estate ban?
>>
>> I'm on Snowglobe 2 and just got banned from both The Loft and The  
>> Loft
>> II; both are furniture store sims. Can someone TP there and test if  
>> they
>> get banned? If someone is banning by presence on the TPV list, then  
>> snow
>> needs to be on it rather than listed separately... (tho I could have
>> sworn it WAS on it)...
>>
>> --GC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>>
>> iEYEAREKAAYFAkvdyaEACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmVc1wCfYZUiiBiyew8MkMm5jv8OvIsW
>> xvIAn1j/OPBoXl8BhyAZ3dm71zDKii1+
>> =YLlk
>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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