Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
I do not add much to the list.. But I will say... Mr lane, what ever your problem is with Emerald... You should probably let it go. This blatant flaming and trolling does not help the open source community. Your actions and flames are actually a hindrance to the community as a whole. You see i say community as we typically work together to make things better etc. It Seems you mostly wish to sabotage and wreck havoc. It is counter productive and plain rude. SO i must request... Either take this offline directloy with the people you have a problem with or quit posting this crap as I do not want to have to read it. So as they say either *** or get off the pot So either become a active positive contributing member of this community or go away. I am quite fed up with the Trolls and will no longer personally tolerate it. So please go stroke your ego else where and lets get back to discussing code and things that actually matter to us besides your grievance against emerald. Dim. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Discrete Dreamscape < discrete.dreamsc...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'd like to remark that the information you found is just the data of the > ModularSystems website, and all of the other viewer directory listings look > about the same as Emerald's. The actual real-life name(s) of people involved > aren't required to be publicly viewable, but Linden Lab does have them. > Also, consider the possibility that .sl was chosen as a domain because it > could be an abbreviation for SecondLife. Cute, eh? > > I seriously doubt anyone with malicious intent is going to bother trying to > register their viewer in the directory. > > > On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Boy Lane wrote: > >> We certainly should follow the bright example of Emerald / Modularsystems, >> where you Discrete are a member of. A pseudo company set up and owned >> by known banned griefer JCool aka who revived his banned account(s) under >> the names of Fractured Crystal/Fractured Modularsystems. >> >> Back to their registration. JCool set up Modularsystems. A mailbox company >> with the following contact details: >> >> http://modularsystems.sl/ >> P.O. Box 5702 >> West Columbia, South Carolina 29171-5702 >> United States >> administra...@modularsystems.sl >> >> That is an untraceable anonymized entity without any name attached to it >> and >> unknown legal status, registered with a domain name in Sierra Leone, a >> country >> that does not even have a WHOIS. >> >> This information was used to register and self-certify Emerald in the >> Viewer >> Directory. >> >> As I as a legally uniformed hobby programmer without commercial interest >> can >> evaluate this situation and validity of the Emerald listing, it is meant >> to >> circumvent >> any means of the viewer directory to hold a developer accountable for >> their >> viewers. It is also meant to avoid any possible litigation from LL in case >> indeed >> some malicious code may be found in their viewer(s). Besides Emerald, >> Modularsystems >> also develops and uses a malicious viewer named "Onyx" that is in clear >> violation of >> ToS/TPV. >> >> So no, Discrete, all these things completely contradict your argument. As >> shown a >> listing in Lindens viewer directory doesn't add a single piece of safety >> or >> security. To >> look for a legitimate viewer the Alternate Viewer list in the community >> edited SL Wiki >> is a better place to, for the simple reason malicious clients may not >> easily >> slip in as >> this is possible with self-certification. A blacklist is a good thing and >> could at least >> complement Viewer Directory and Alternate Viewers list. But of course it >> would >> include most of the malicious viewer from the key developers behind >> Modularsystems >> which obviously you try to avoid. >> >> Additional question to Linden Lab: How can for repeated ToS violations >> permanently >> banned people just circumvent that ban by creating new accounts as many of >> the >> Emerald developers did? Is it money spent for SL that counts rather than >> ToS? >> >> Boy >> >> - Original Message - > Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:39:16 -0400 >> > From: Discrete Dreamscape >> > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV >> > directory ? >> > To: Tigro Spottystripes >> > Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> > >> > This discussion seems to have been created with misleading intentions. >> > >> > Because some TPV creators don't want to reveal any personal information >> > about themselves, they can't be posted on the TPV directory, and because >> > of >> > this, it's understandable they might view the directory as unfair. But, >> > this >> > doesn't strike me as a valid reason to criticize the list. >> > >> > It's certainly valid to say that the viewers on the list are not >> > absolutely >> > trustworthy unless a full code audit is done, but even then, do you >> really >> > know that wh
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
I don't know who you are Mr. Brandon Husbands, you are certainly not a viewer developer but a fly-by-night who want's to add some oil to the drama fire. It does not really matter. I stated facts here, not flames. Modularsytems is a "company" with a legal status we dont't know, created and owned by a person with permanently banned accounts due to ToS violations. Modularsystems is registered as this entity in the viewer directory. Modularsystems develops and uses malicious viewers, namely "Onyx", with several other malicious projects done by key developers such as Fractured, Phox, Skills or Cryo. All who had their accounts permanently banned for ToS violations. I asked a legitimate question to LL, to repeat it once again: How can for repeated ToS violations permanently banned people just circumvent that ban by creating new accounts as many of the Emerald developers did? Is it money spent for SL that counts rather than ToS? As you haven't read my posting, rather add irrelevant accusations in your own posting, Mr. Brandon Husband, that are supposedly to confuse the reader and discredit legitimate questions, lI can only conclude you are the troll here. Boy - Original Message - From: Brandon Husbands To: Discrete Dreamscape Cc: Boy Lane ; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV I do not add much to the list.. But I will say... Mr lane, what ever your problem is with Emerald... You should probably let it go. This blatant flaming and trolling does not help the open source community. Your actions and flames are actually a hindrance to the community as a whole. You see i say community as we typically work together to make things better etc. It Seems you mostly wish to sabotage and wreck havoc. It is counter productive and plain rude. SO i must request... Either take this offline directloy with the people you have a problem with or quit posting this crap as I do not want to have to read it. So as they say either *** or get off the pot So either become a active positive contributing member of this community or go away. I am quite fed up with the Trolls and will no longer personally tolerate it. So please go stroke your ego else where and lets get back to discussing code and things that actually matter to us besides your grievance against emerald. Dim. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Discrete Dreamscape wrote: I'd like to remark that the information you found is just the data of the ModularSystems website, and all of the other viewer directory listings look about the same as Emerald's. The actual real-life name(s) of people involved aren't required to be publicly viewable, but Linden Lab does have them. Also, consider the possibility that .sl was chosen as a domain because it could be an abbreviation for SecondLife. Cute, eh? I seriously doubt anyone with malicious intent is going to bother trying to register their viewer in the directory. On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Boy Lane wrote: We certainly should follow the bright example of Emerald / Modularsystems, where you Discrete are a member of. A pseudo company set up and owned by known banned griefer JCool aka who revived his banned account(s) under the names of Fractured Crystal/Fractured Modularsystems. Back to their registration. JCool set up Modularsystems. A mailbox company with the following contact details: http://modularsystems.sl/ P.O. Box 5702 West Columbia, South Carolina 29171-5702 United States administra...@modularsystems.sl That is an untraceable anonymized entity without any name attached to it and unknown legal status, registered with a domain name in Sierra Leone, a country that does not even have a WHOIS. This information was used to register and self-certify Emerald in the Viewer Directory. As I as a legally uniformed hobby programmer without commercial interest can evaluate this situation and validity of the Emerald listing, it is meant to circumvent any means of the viewer directory to hold a developer accountable for their viewers. It is also meant to avoid any possible litigation from LL in case indeed some malicious code may be found in their viewer(s). Besides Emerald, Modularsystems also develops and uses a malicious viewer named "Onyx" that is in clear violation of ToS/TPV. So no, Discrete, all these things completely contradict your argument. As shown a listing in Lindens viewer directory doesn't add a single piece of safety or security. To look for a legitimate viewer the Alternate Viewer list in the community edited SL Wiki is a better place to, for the simple reason malicious clients may not easily slip i
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
Sorry, seems I have to correct myself. Mr. Brandon Husbands seems to be Dimentox Travanti. Creator of the "Toxic Viewer". A project that violates GPL by not providing sources as well as distributing non-redistributable components such as the Vivox voice packages. This adds very well to your credibility Mr. Brandon Husbands :). - Original Message - From: Boy Lane To: Brandon Husbands ; Discrete Dreamscape Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV I don't know who you are Mr. Brandon Husbands, you are certainly not a viewer developer but a fly-by-night who want's to add some oil to the drama fire. It does not really matter. I stated facts here, not flames. Modularsytems is a "company" with a legal status we dont't know, created and owned by a person with permanently banned accounts due to ToS violations. Modularsystems is registered as this entity in the viewer directory. Modularsystems develops and uses malicious viewers, namely "Onyx", with several other malicious projects done by key developers such as Fractured, Phox, Skills or Cryo. All who had their accounts permanently banned for ToS violations. I asked a legitimate question to LL, to repeat it once again: How can for repeated ToS violations permanently banned people just circumvent that ban by creating new accounts as many of the Emerald developers did? Is it money spent for SL that counts rather than ToS? As you haven't read my posting, rather add irrelevant accusations in your own posting, Mr. Brandon Husband, that are supposedly to confuse the reader and discredit legitimate questions, lI can only conclude you are the troll here. Boy - Original Message - From: Brandon Husbands To: Discrete Dreamscape Cc: Boy Lane ; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV I do not add much to the list.. But I will say... Mr lane, what ever your problem is with Emerald... You should probably let it go. This blatant flaming and trolling does not help the open source community. Your actions and flames are actually a hindrance to the community as a whole. You see i say community as we typically work together to make things better etc. It Seems you mostly wish to sabotage and wreck havoc. It is counter productive and plain rude. SO i must request... Either take this offline directloy with the people you have a problem with or quit posting this crap as I do not want to have to read it. So as they say either *** or get off the pot So either become a active positive contributing member of this community or go away. I am quite fed up with the Trolls and will no longer personally tolerate it. So please go stroke your ego else where and lets get back to discussing code and things that actually matter to us besides your grievance against emerald. Dim. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Discrete Dreamscape wrote: I'd like to remark that the information you found is just the data of the ModularSystems website, and all of the other viewer directory listings look about the same as Emerald's. The actual real-life name(s) of people involved aren't required to be publicly viewable, but Linden Lab does have them. Also, consider the possibility that .sl was chosen as a domain because it could be an abbreviation for SecondLife. Cute, eh? I seriously doubt anyone with malicious intent is going to bother trying to register their viewer in the directory. On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Boy Lane wrote: We certainly should follow the bright example of Emerald / Modularsystems, where you Discrete are a member of. A pseudo company set up and owned by known banned griefer JCool aka who revived his banned account(s) under the names of Fractured Crystal/Fractured Modularsystems. Back to their registration. JCool set up Modularsystems. A mailbox company with the following contact details: http://modularsystems.sl/ P.O. Box 5702 West Columbia, South Carolina 29171-5702 United States administra...@modularsystems.sl That is an untraceable anonymized entity without any name attached to it and unknown legal status, registered with a domain name in Sierra Leone, a country that does not even have a WHOIS. This information was used to register and self-certify Emerald in the Viewer Directory. As I as a legally uniformed hobby programmer without commercial interest can evaluate this situation and validity of the Emerald listing, it is meant to circumvent any means of the viewer directory to hold a developer accountable for their viewers. It
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
My credentials are not up for discussion. Most in Second Life are well aware of who I am and what I stand for. Additionally most creditable and active community members know my contributions and projects. Though i could be mistaken in the extent to which this information travels. If I am wrong in my assumption then perhaps we can use a different forum or venue to discuss these things. Now on to your questions let us take a look at what you are saying and implying. 1 The company. Please show me what Government databases you looked in that also covers DBAs and assumed operating names, You place accusations here without proper proof nor justification. 2. The bans you mention. As far as I know, Linden Labs does not discuss with anyone outside of its company and the people which they take action upon the conditions relevant information regarding disciplinary actions and bans. So unless you are a Linden or have been one in the past i Highly doubt that the information is truly factual. 3. Are you accusing Linden Labs of pandering to the almighty dollar instead of standing up for the company integrity on their own list? Sir, that is a huge accusation. I ask again where is your factual information that has brought you to this conclusion? I would honestly say that this is indeed not a true thing you state and is borderline slander against the very company which you supposedly are a third party contribute for. 4. The toxic viewer source is posted. If you care to look at it here is the link. https://dcs.sourcerepo.com/dcs/tox_view/ feel free to look at it and take what ever changes you see that you like. Be warry as its just a general repo for my dir i work in. The Voice component is not included in the installer btw. Furthermore the Toxic Viewer is no longer in active development as it was something that was asked of me to do by my wife. And trust me you do not wanna go there. Youll just have to trust me on that. So in all honesty its a null point. Now on to my own conclusions regarding your communications. I really do not have much more to say to you in this subject. But I will offer some advice in regards to point 3. As I tell my kids. "You do not *** where you eat and you do not bite the hand which feeds you. Now its not my place to parent you nor is it my place to tell you what to do.. I only offer this advice as a human being that is concerned with the direction this discussion is going. So in a nutshell I do not believe and will safely assume that no one on this list thinks that this is a proper forum for this type of accusation/discussion. May i give you one more piece of advise. Have you tried the proper channels for this type of inquisition? If I am not mistaken the url is support.secondlife.com. Once your on that page you can select new ticket/issue. That would probably be the best avanue to question these things. On a side note if you need assistance filing a ticket I would be more than happy to assist. Dim. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:12 AM, Boy Lane wrote: > Sorry, seems I have to correct myself. Mr. Brandon Husbands seems to be > Dimentox Travanti. Creator of the "Toxic Viewer". A project that violates > GPL by not providing sources as well as distributing non-redistributable > components such as the Vivox voice packages. > > This adds very well to your credibility Mr. Brandon Husbands :). > > > > - Original Message - > *From:* Boy Lane > *To:* Brandon Husbands ; Discrete > Dreamscape > *Cc:* opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com > *Sent:* Friday, April 30, 2010 3:57 PM > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV > > I don't know who you are Mr. Brandon Husbands, you are certainly not a > viewer developer but a fly-by-night who want's to add some oil to the drama > fire. It does not really matter. > > I stated facts here, not flames. > > Modularsytems is a "company" with a legal status we dont't know, created > and owned by a person with permanently banned accounts due to ToS > violations. > > Modularsystems is registered as this entity in the viewer directory. > > Modularsystems develops and uses malicious viewers, namely "Onyx", with > several other malicious projects done by key developers such as Fractured, > Phox, Skills or Cryo. All who had their accounts permanently banned for ToS > violations. > > I asked a legitimate question to LL, to repeat it once again: How can for > repeated ToS violations permanently banned people just circumvent that ban > by creating new accounts as many of the Emerald developers did? Is it money > spent for SL that counts rather than ToS? > > As you haven't read my posting, rather add irrelevant accusations in your > own posting, Mr. Brandon Husband, that are supposedly to confuse the reader > and discredit legitimate questions, lI can only conclude you are the troll > here. > > Boy > > > > > > - Original Message - > *From:* Brandon Husbands > *To:* Discrete Dreamscape > *Cc:* Boy Lane ; opensource-dev@lists.seco
[opensource-dev] Oh, the drama. (was: Viewer blacklist...)
for crying out loud, could you guys PLEASE move the remainder of that "discussion" to a more suited medium, the "Under the bridge" forum on second citizen comes to mind. ... where the trolls are. http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18 ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Oh, the drama. (was: Viewer blacklist...)
I agree. Thats what i have been trying to say... sighs... Can we get back to discussing code now? On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:46 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > for crying out loud, could you guys PLEASE move the remainder of that > "discussion" to a more suited medium, the "Under the bridge" forum on > second > citizen comes to mind. > ... where the trolls are. > http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18 > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- --- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. --- --- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
Your credentials are very much up for discussion if you engage in here. Firstly, you do not link to your sources where you post your binary, that is in the alternate viewer directory. A posting here in the mailing list is not sufficient. As such you are violating GPL. You are also violating redistribution licenses by distributing the vivox voice components in the same place. But that's not what this whole thing is about. As for the points you brought up, I'm not the one supposed to answer anything in regards of legal status, registration, permanent bans, newly created accounts etc. of Modularsystems and their key developers. I wrote what is publically available information. As this is limited I asked the question here about this because I do not know the details and I'd like to get an answer how this is possible and why permanently banned accounts can circumvent that ban by just creating new avatars. The ToS violations and bans are verifyable by the very own statement of JCool/Fractured, also the acknowledgment of the malicious Onyx viewer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRbV9SIbdCA Again, these are facts people should be aware of. Henri raised a legitimate qestion about creation of a blacklist of known malicious viewers, instead of relying on FUD spread by LL about the validity of listings in the viewer directory. Everyone can list a viewer here, self certify, and residents believe this viewer is legitimate. Which is nothing but wrong. LL has neither the resources nor capacity to verify every single viewer entry. In addition they also stated clearly that the Viewer Directory is meant as a marketing tool for those who need the publicity it may create. What I think it only creates is a false sense of security, and it will be only a question of time until a malicious project will be listed, and be it for the LULZ of some script kiddie. I have nothing against you personally, but I have serious concerns that made me stopping developing viewers. Even though they never had any malicious features at all. Boy - Original Message - From: Brandon Husbands To: Boy Lane Cc: Discrete Dreamscape ; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV My credentials are not up for discussion. Most in Second Life are well aware of who I am and what I stand for. Additionally most creditable and active community members know my contributions and projects. Though i could be mistaken in the extent to which this information travels. If I am wrong in my assumption then perhaps we can use a different forum or venue to discuss these things. Now on to your questions let us take a look at what you are saying and implying. 1 The company. Please show me what Government databases you looked in that also covers DBAs and assumed operating names, You place accusations here without proper proof nor justification. 2. The bans you mention. As far as I know, Linden Labs does not discuss with anyone outside of its company and the people which they take action upon the conditions relevant information regarding disciplinary actions and bans. So unless you are a Linden or have been one in the past i Highly doubt that the information is truly factual. 3. Are you accusing Linden Labs of pandering to the almighty dollar instead of standing up for the company integrity on their own list? Sir, that is a huge accusation. I ask again where is your factual information that has brought you to this conclusion? I would honestly say that this is indeed not a true thing you state and is borderline slander against the very company which you supposedly are a third party contribute for. 4. The toxic viewer source is posted. If you care to look at it here is the link. https://dcs.sourcerepo.com/dcs/tox_view/ feel free to look at it and take what ever changes you see that you like. Be warry as its just a general repo for my dir i work in. The Voice component is not included in the installer btw. Furthermore the Toxic Viewer is no longer in active development as it was something that was asked of me to do by my wife. And trust me you do not wanna go there. Youll just have to trust me on that. So in all honesty its a null point. Now on to my own conclusions regarding your communications. I really do not have much more to say to you in this subject. But I will offer some advice in regards to point 3. As I tell my kids. "You do not *** where you eat and you do not bite the hand which feeds you. Now its not my place to parent you nor is it my place to tell you what to do.. I only offer this advice as a human being that is concerned with the direction this discussion is going. So in a nutshell I do not believe and will safely assume that no one on this list thinks that this is a proper forum for this type of accusation/discussion. May i give you one more piece of
Re: [opensource-dev] Oh, the drama. (was: Viewer blacklist...)
Am Freitag, 30. April 2010 10:47:27 schrieb Brandon Husbands: > I agree. Thats what i have been trying to say... sighs... Can we get back > to discussing code now? with pleasure. any ideas about making SG 1.4 fully opensim-compatible by adding the "old" way to fetch map tiles? bye, LC > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:46 AM, Lance Corrimal > > wrote: > > for crying out loud, could you guys PLEASE move the remainder of that > > "discussion" to a more suited medium, the "Under the bridge" forum on > > second > > citizen comes to mind. > > ... where the trolls are. > > http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18 > > ___ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
Sighs. Last post I am going to word this very simple like. GPL. the actual locations are different. There no page nor www site for the viewer itself. Nor is it a active thing. You have issues with this... Please contact: by all means. Since your insisting on the credentials. I can hand you my resume if you like. You said do not have any idea who I am nor what I do. Lets see i have contributed to many FOSS projects and have plenty of my own. Recently the LSL editor which was closed source was given to me by the copyright holder. I have open sourced it. There are plenty of other projects which are open source which I contribute. I also created DCS and have a active user base of over 150k in SL and since your so fond of if a company is real i assure you my company is. If you like I can put you in contact with my lawyers to discuss your accusations and slander which you have recently brought up about myself and my works and such. So please don't go barking at me about this or that as i do not have time for your petty games and epeen stroking. Plainly what it boils down to is you have a beef with emerald. Sorry I can not help you with this. But this is no place for your attacks on it. To put it in terms which i believe you might understand. drop it dude. No one wants to hear your crying on this list. I only chimed in cause to be honest your whines annoyed me. You are barking up the wrong tree here sir. So please cease and desist so we can get back to productive discussions. I will not reply anymore as I have contributed to this chaos way to much now. You can feel free to contact me in world or via email for further discussion or if you choose to continue with false accusations we can handle this in a lawful way but by any means his list is not the place so I will ask you one more time.. Please stop. To the rest of you I am personally sorry that you have to go through this. But I can not allow these type of accusations to go unanswered. I really am sorry that you have to go through this garbage. Dim. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:49 AM, Boy Lane wrote: > Your credentials are very much up for discussion if you engage in here. > Firstly, > you do not link to your sources where you post your binary, that is in the > alternate viewer directory. A posting here in the mailing list is not > sufficient. As such you are violating GPL. You are also violating > redistribution licenses by distributing the vivox voice components in the > same place. But that's not what this whole thing is about. > > As for the points you brought up, I'm not the one supposed to answer > anything in regards of legal status, registration, permanent bans, newly > created accounts etc. of Modularsystems and their key developers. I wrote > what is publically available information. As this is limited I asked the > question here about this because I do not know the details and I'd like to > get an answer how this is possible and why permanently banned accounts can > circumvent that ban by just creating new avatars. > > The ToS violations and bans are verifyable by the very own statement of > JCool/Fractured, also the acknowledgment of the malicious Onyx viewer: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRbV9SIbdCA > > Again, these are facts people should be aware of. Henri raised a legitimate > qestion about creation of a blacklist of known malicious viewers, instead of > relying on FUD spread by LL about the validity of listings in the viewer > directory. Everyone can list a viewer here, self certify, and residents > believe this viewer is legitimate. Which is nothing but wrong. LL has > neither the resources nor capacity to verify every single viewer entry. > > In addition they also stated clearly that the Viewer Directory is meant as > a marketing tool for those who need the publicity it may create. What I > think it only creates is a false sense of security, and it will be only a > question of time until a malicious project will be listed, and be it for the > LULZ of some script kiddie. > > I have nothing against you personally, but I have serious concerns that > made me stopping developing viewers. Even though they never had any > malicious features at all. > > Boy > > > - Original Message - > *From:* Brandon Husbands > *To:* Boy Lane > *Cc:* Discrete Dreamscape ; > opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com > *Sent:* Friday, April 30, 2010 4:29 PM > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV > > My credentials are not up for discussion. Most in Second Life are well > aware of who I am and what I stand for. Additionally most creditable and > active community members know my contributions and projects. Though i could > be mistaken in the extent to which this information travels. If I am wrong > in my assumption then perhaps we can use a different forum or venue to > discuss these things. > > Now on to your questions let us take a look at what you are saying and > implying. > > 1 The company. > Please sh
Re: [opensource-dev] Oh, the drama. (was: Viewer blacklist...)
Perhaps patching open sim to use the new way? probably the best route to go as it needs to keep up with com changes in the main viewer. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Freitag, 30. April 2010 10:47:27 schrieb Brandon Husbands: > > I agree. Thats what i have been trying to say... sighs... Can we get back > > to discussing code now? > > with pleasure. > > > any ideas about making SG 1.4 fully opensim-compatible by adding the "old" > way > to fetch map tiles? > > > bye, > LC > > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:46 AM, Lance Corrimal > > > > wrote: > > > for crying out loud, could you guys PLEASE move the remainder of that > > > "discussion" to a more suited medium, the "Under the bridge" forum on > > > second > > > citizen comes to mind. > > > ... where the trolls are. > > > http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18 > > > ___ > > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > > privileges > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- --- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. --- --- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
Sweetheart, besides not being your "dude" I'm not interested in your advise nor in your past. Matter of fact you distribute your "Toxic Viewer" in the alternate viewer list. You also distribute the vivox voice components illegally there. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Alternate_viewers As for the rest, it does not matter what I think about Modularsystems. Emerald is not even an issue here. Read the facts I posted. You don't need to like them, nevertheless these are facts, not fiction. The questions I raised remain and I hope someone from LL can answer them. - Original Message - From: Brandon Husbands To: Boy Lane Cc: Discrete Dreamscape ; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV Sighs. Last post I am going to word this very simple like. GPL. the actual locations are different. There no page nor www site for the viewer itself. Nor is it a active thing. You have issues with this... Please contact: by all means. Since your insisting on the credentials. I can hand you my resume if you like. You said do not have any idea who I am nor what I do. Lets see i have contributed to many FOSS projects and have plenty of my own. Recently the LSL editor which was closed source was given to me by the copyright holder. I have open sourced it. There are plenty of other projects which are open source which I contribute. I also created DCS and have a active user base of over 150k in SL and since your so fond of if a company is real i assure you my company is. If you like I can put you in contact with my lawyers to discuss your accusations and slander which you have recently brought up about myself and my works and such. So please don't go barking at me about this or that as i do not have time for your petty games and epeen stroking. Plainly what it boils down to is you have a beef with emerald. Sorry I can not help you with this. But this is no place for your attacks on it. To put it in terms which i believe you might understand. drop it dude. No one wants to hear your crying on this list. I only chimed in cause to be honest your whines annoyed me. You are barking up the wrong tree here sir. So please cease and desist so we can get back to productive discussions. I will not reply anymore as I have contributed to this chaos way to much now. You can feel free to contact me in world or via email for further discussion or if you choose to continue with false accusations we can handle this in a lawful way but by any means his list is not the place so I will ask you one more time.. Please stop. To the rest of you I am personally sorry that you have to go through this. But I can not allow these type of accusations to go unanswered. I really am sorry that you have to go through this garbage. Dim. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:49 AM, Boy Lane wrote: Your credentials are very much up for discussion if you engage in here. Firstly, you do not link to your sources where you post your binary, that is in the alternate viewer directory. A posting here in the mailing list is not sufficient. As such you are violating GPL. You are also violating redistribution licenses by distributing the vivox voice components in the same place. But that's not what this whole thing is about. As for the points you brought up, I'm not the one supposed to answer anything in regards of legal status, registration, permanent bans, newly created accounts etc. of Modularsystems and their key developers. I wrote what is publically available information. As this is limited I asked the question here about this because I do not know the details and I'd like to get an answer how this is possible and why permanently banned accounts can circumvent that ban by just creating new avatars. The ToS violations and bans are verifyable by the very own statement of JCool/Fractured, also the acknowledgment of the malicious Onyx viewer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRbV9SIbdCA Again, these are facts people should be aware of. Henri raised a legitimate qestion about creation of a blacklist of known malicious viewers, instead of relying on FUD spread by LL about the validity of listings in the viewer directory. Everyone can list a viewer here, self certify, and residents believe this viewer is legitimate. Which is nothing but wrong. LL has neither the resources nor capacity to verify every single viewer entry. In addition they also stated clearly that the Viewer Directory is meant as a marketing tool for those who need the publicity it may create. What I think it only creates is a false sense of security, and it will be only a question of time until a malicious project will be listed, and be it for the LULZ of some script kiddie. I have nothing against you personally, but I have serious concerns that made me stopping developing viewe
Re: [opensource-dev] Oh, the drama. (was: Viewer blacklist...)
"patching opensim"... ...how do you "patch" the people who provide a service for free, to make them rent an expensive distributed storage provider for their map tiles? are you going to rent S3 yourself, for your own little local grid? bye, LC Am Freitag, 30. April 2010 11:23:59 schrieb Brandon Husbands: > Perhaps patching open sim to use the new way? probably the best route to go > as it needs to keep up with com changes in the main viewer. > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Lance Corrimal > > wrote: > > Am Freitag, 30. April 2010 10:47:27 schrieb Brandon Husbands: > > > I agree. Thats what i have been trying to say... sighs... Can we get > > > back to discussing code now? > > > > with pleasure. > > > > > > any ideas about making SG 1.4 fully opensim-compatible by adding the > > "old" way > > to fetch map tiles? > > > > > > bye, > > LC > > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:46 AM, Lance Corrimal > > > > > > wrote: > > > > for crying out loud, could you guys PLEASE move the remainder of that > > > > "discussion" to a more suited medium, the "Under the bridge" forum on > > > > second > > > > citizen comes to mind. > > > > ... where the trolls are. > > > > http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18 > > > > ___ > > > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > > > privileges > > > > ___ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Oh, the drama. (was: Viewer blacklist...)
The most obvious solution - from where I'm sitting - is to abstract it, and provide different access methods underneath. The higher levels of the viewer application should neither know nor care just where the map tiles are coming from, beyond making an API call to fetch one. Later, one can look at a method by which a grid service might make certain representations as to where and how those tiles are located and to be fetched, but compartmentalizing the hard-wired knowledge (at this stage) seems to be the best option, presently. On 30/04/2010 8:20 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > "patching opensim"... > > ...how do you "patch" the people who provide a service for free, to make them > rent an expensive distributed storage provider for their map tiles? > are you going to rent S3 yourself, for your own little local grid? > > > > bye, > LC > > Am Freitag, 30. April 2010 11:23:59 schrieb Brandon Husbands: > >> Perhaps patching open sim to use the new way? probably the best route to go >> as it needs to keep up with com changes in the main viewer. >> >> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Lance Corrimal >> >> wrote: >> >>> Am Freitag, 30. April 2010 10:47:27 schrieb Brandon Husbands: >>> I agree. Thats what i have been trying to say... sighs... Can we get back to discussing code now? >>> with pleasure. >>> >>> >>> any ideas about making SG 1.4 fully opensim-compatible by adding the >>> "old" way >>> to fetch map tiles? >>> >>> >>> bye, >>> LC >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:46 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > for crying out loud, could you guys PLEASE move the remainder of that > "discussion" to a more suited medium, the "Under the bridge" forum on > second > citizen comes to mind. > ... where the trolls are. > http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18 > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > >>> ___ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] HTTP viewer map (was: Oh, the drama.)
See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-77 This has been stagnant for too long (incidentally, it was brought up at yesterday's Snowglobe meeting.) I think the way forward is standardizing this in a way that allows opensim to implement it, not going back to UDP, region-local map tiles. SNOW-77 has a patch attached that handles using a capability to find the base url for the map tiles, but still sticks to assumptions about the url structure. I added a comment there last December, and will repeat it here, that I think the grid should not just tell the viewer about the base url, but send a template to prevent depending on a rigid url structure. This looks like something RUSS can be used for, but that has a dire warning about security implications of using an untrusted format string: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Recursive_URL_Substitution_Syntax I don't know if this is a problem here (is it?), but I think we should find *some* way to prevent hard-coding the url structure in the viewer. On Friday 30 April 2010 14:00:43 Tateru Nino wrote: > The most obvious solution - from where I'm sitting - is to abstract it, > and provide different access methods underneath. The higher levels of > the viewer application should neither know nor care just where the map > tiles are coming from, beyond making an API call to fetch one. Later, > one can look at a method by which a grid service might make certain > representations as to where and how those tiles are located and to be > fetched, but compartmentalizing the hard-wired knowledge (at this stage) > seems to be the best option, presently. > > On 30/04/2010 8:20 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > > "patching opensim"... > > > > ...how do you "patch" the people who provide a service for free, to make > > them rent an expensive distributed storage provider for their map tiles? > > are you going to rent S3 yourself, for your own little local grid? -- Thickbrick ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV directory ?
Just an idea I think would be cool is if LL made a tool (perhaps a script) that users could click on if they suspected their viewer to be bad or something and it would cause the viewer to send the info to LL for investigation. Perhaps also LL can have hashes of the viewer source code. Should it not match or something, it won't allow them to connect or it would be reported, etc. Jonathan Irvin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Source of boost libraries
I'm trying to compile Snowglobe 1.4 on Windows XP / VC 2005 Express Edition (aka VC80) and was told the boost libraries would be part of the svn, but apparently they are not. Can some kind soul please point me to where I can pick them up? -jonathan ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Source of boost libraries
The boost packages are not "in" svn, but the urls for the packages are listed in install.xml, and they are downloaded and unpacked into the build tree by the build system. You only need to provide your own boost if you are doing a standalone build (which I assume you aren't, since you are on windows,) or using a version of VS for which there's no prebuilt boost packages (2005 only, I think.) On Friday 30 April 2010 18:51:19 Jonathan Welch wrote: > I'm trying to compile Snowglobe 1.4 on Windows XP / VC 2005 Express > Edition (aka VC80) and was told the boost libraries would be part of > the svn, but apparently they are not. > > Can some kind soul please point me to where I can pick them up? > > -jonathan > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Thickbrick ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Source of boost libraries
Try here. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-604 From: Jonathan Welch To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 10:51:19 AM Subject: [opensource-dev] Source of boost libraries I'm trying to compile Snowglobe 1.4 on Windows XP / VC 2005 Express Edition (aka VC80) and was told the boost libraries would be part of the svn, but apparently they are not. Can some kind soul please point me to where I can pick them up? -jonathan ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 02:55:28 -0500, Brandon Husbands wrote: > I do not add much to the list.. But I will say... Mr lane, what ever your > problem is with Emerald... You should probably let it go. This blatant > flaming and trolling does not help the open source community. Your actions > and flames are actually a hindrance to the community as a whole. thanks for your interest. please have a look to the last 2 months of mailing list archive, and send a similar advice to the many other members who flamed and trolled the list - with no useful results for the community. bye opensource obscure ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Oh, the drama. (was: Viewer blacklist...)
As a person who is trying to patch (a now rather old version) of OpenSim to handle voxel terrain, there's MANY, MANY flaws to the messaging subsystem of both the viewer and the server. For one, I wanted to tack on an additional UDP/TCP message to handle voxelmap transmissions and modification. Unfortunately, it appears that even a tiny change to the messaging template would completely destroy compatibility with SL, and even adding one packet handler in OpenSim would involve changing LibOMV, 3 packet handling packages, and an extremely long PacketType enum. This is NOT a flexible protocol that we're using. In order to retain compatibility with "legacy" viewers that only support heightmap terrains, I'm having to add in additional capabilities to OpenSim and the viewer, which I don't like, as HTTP transports are going to be godawfully slow, particularly when adding, removing or modifying voxels. On Fri, 2010-04-30 at 21:00 +1000, Tateru Nino wrote: > The most obvious solution - from where I'm sitting - is to abstract it, > and provide different access methods underneath. The higher levels of > the viewer application should neither know nor care just where the map > tiles are coming from, beyond making an API call to fetch one. Later, > one can look at a method by which a grid service might make certain > representations as to where and how those tiles are located and to be > fetched, but compartmentalizing the hard-wired knowledge (at this stage) > seems to be the best option, presently. > > On 30/04/2010 8:20 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > > "patching opensim"... > > > > ...how do you "patch" the people who provide a service for free, to make > > them > > rent an expensive distributed storage provider for their map tiles? > > are you going to rent S3 yourself, for your own little local grid? > > > > > > > > bye, > > LC > > > > Am Freitag, 30. April 2010 11:23:59 schrieb Brandon Husbands: > > > >> Perhaps patching open sim to use the new way? probably the best route to go > >> as it needs to keep up with com changes in the main viewer. > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Lance Corrimal > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Am Freitag, 30. April 2010 10:47:27 schrieb Brandon Husbands: > >>> > I agree. Thats what i have been trying to say... sighs... Can we get > back to discussing code now? > > >>> with pleasure. > >>> > >>> > >>> any ideas about making SG 1.4 fully opensim-compatible by adding the > >>> "old" way > >>> to fetch map tiles? > >>> > >>> > >>> bye, > >>> LC > >>> > >>> > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:46 AM, Lance Corrimal > > wrote: > > > for crying out loud, could you guys PLEASE move the remainder of that > > "discussion" to a more suited medium, the "Under the bridge" forum on > > second > > citizen comes to mind. > > ... where the trolls are. > > http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18 > > ___ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > >>> ___ > >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > >>> privileges > >>> > > ___ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > > > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
Hi guys! I'd just like to mention this part of the mailing list policies: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev "If someone else is violating mailing list policy, do not reply to them on the list. Reply to them offlist if you feel you need to engage them. If you feel disciplinary action is required, send mail to the list administrator (). Engaging with them on-list may result in the moderation bit being set on your account." Personally, I kinda enjoy the entertaining drama. It's MUCH more fun than the never ending TPV discussions. I'm working on finishing up the last of my finals, so I can't really read these now, and I'll save them for later. But if someone else has a problem with this, or you two have a problem with each other, it may be something to think about. Have fun! Stickman ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV directory ?
There already seems to be a black list, it just isn't published. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 7:08 AM, Jonathan Irvin wrote: > Just an idea I think would be cool is if LL made a tool (perhaps a script) > that users could click on if they suspected their viewer to be bad or > something and it would cause the viewer to send the info to LL for > investigation. > > Perhaps also LL can have hashes of the viewer source code. Should it not > match or something, it won't allow them to connect or it would be reported, > etc. > > Jonathan Irvin > > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
[opensource-dev] Banning by client
There are autobanners that ban by client, no? Full-sim, estate ban? I'm on Snowglobe 2 and just got banned from both The Loft and The Loft II; both are furniture store sims. Can someone TP there and test if they get banned? If someone is banning by presence on the TPV list, then snow needs to be on it rather than listed separately... (tho I could have sworn it WAS on it)... --GC ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client
I went there. I saw a "GC Continental" was on the ban list for both of the sims. That was the closest I could find to you. I am not aware of there being any autobanners that ban by client that any landowner or sim owner can use. I don't know of any way to detect via script or estate or land controls what client someone is even using. I do know there is maintenance going on, and regions being restarted. Perhaps you were simply caught in a sim restart. At 09:49 PM 4/30/2010, Glen Canaday wrote: >There are autobanners that ban by client, no? Full-sim, estate ban? > >I'm on Snowglobe 2 and just got banned from both The Loft and The Loft >II; both are furniture store sims. Can someone TP there and test if they >get banned? If someone is banning by presence on the TPV list, then snow >needs to be on it rather than listed separately... (tho I could have >sworn it WAS on it)... > >--GC ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Banning by client
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 there is Skill's CDS system On 1/5/2010 01:45, Andromeda Quonset wrote: > I went there. I saw a "GC Continental" was on the ban list for both > of the sims. That was the closest I could find to you. > > I am not aware of there being any autobanners that ban by client that > any landowner or sim owner can use. I don't know of any way to > detect via script or estate or land controls what client someone is even > using. > > I do know there is maintenance going on, and regions being > restarted. Perhaps you were simply caught in a sim restart. > > At 09:49 PM 4/30/2010, Glen Canaday wrote: >> There are autobanners that ban by client, no? Full-sim, estate ban? >> >> I'm on Snowglobe 2 and just got banned from both The Loft and The Loft >> II; both are furniture store sims. Can someone TP there and test if they >> get banned? If someone is banning by presence on the TPV list, then snow >> needs to be on it rather than listed separately... (tho I could have >> sworn it WAS on it)... >> >> --GC > > ___ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAkvbtu4ACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWCEACfYzv5TDPepOyYWe3fAUX+r+Ie 73AAnR4IAGlIN1uhGkQvPEukZV0EMhfu =jzH/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
