[opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Marine Kelley]

Hi, I'd like to thank whoever changed the application page on the Viewer
Directory, the RL info fields used to be "publishable" (they had a little
cross next to the little star indicating that they were mandatory), and
that's what was holding me from registering the RLV there. Today I just
noticed that these fields (RL name, address etc) are not "publishable"
anymore, which mostly addresses the concerns I had before, namely having my
RL info published without my agreement. Therefore I have applied to register
the RLV on the Viewer Directory today, we'll see how it goes.

So, thank you whoever did this change !

Marine

PS : Of course I might just be silly and had not noticed a change that
occurred days or weeks ago, or even misread in the first place, in which
case disregard this message completely and let me hide under a rock *g*
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Re: [opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Henri Beauchamp]

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:02:24 +0200, Marine Kelley wrote:

> Hi, I'd like to thank whoever changed the application page on the Viewer
> Directory, the RL info fields used to be "publishable" (they had a little
> cross next to the little star indicating that they were mandatory), and
> that's what was holding me from registering the RLV there. Today I just
> noticed that these fields (RL name, address etc) are not "publishable"
> anymore, which mostly addresses the concerns I had before, namely having my
> RL info published without my agreement. Therefore I have applied to register
> the RLV on the Viewer Directory today, we'll see how it goes.

This is still *way* beyond what I am ready to provide to LL: it is *illegal*
in France to require private data that is not strictly necessary to provide
a service. Reference: Law Informatique et Liberté, Article 6, paragraph 3
(http://www.cnil.fr/fileadmin/documents/en/Act78-17VA.pdf), citation:
"The collected data [...] shall be adequate, relevant, and not excessive
in relation to the purpose for which their are obtained and their further
processing."

Being published in the directory should not be made conditional to the
divulgation of my real name and address. All what Linden Lab needs to
have is my avatar name and an ISP based email (which they both already
got): even in case of a legal issue, this info is sufficient for the
police or the justice to identify me.

Beside, given LL clearly states that they can modify the TPV policy at any
time, how could you be sure that they won't suddenly decide to reveal your
private data publicly ?... Another concern is about the security of your
data. Linden Lab has already an history with data theft (see:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2006/09/12/Second_Life_servers_hacked/1)
and this may happen again, particularly with secondary and weakly protected
databases such as the TPV directory.

Sorry, but I will not endanger my real life by risking to get my real name
publicly associated with my SL avatar name.
As a French citizen, I will go by the French law which allows me to stay
anonymous and preserve my private data.

I already raised this concern, but apparently Linden Lab is ignoring it...

For this reason and although fully TPV policy compliant, the Cool VL Viewer
will not be registered in LL's TPV directory.

Henri.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Marine Kelley]

This is not a choice I made lightly, but many people simply did not
understand why the RLV was not in the directory, and despite the number of
times I said it was compliant, people just can't get their heads around the
fact that TPV policy compliance and Viewer Directory listing are two totally
different things. So I yielded.

Yes in some countries, requiring private RL data is illegal for a company
that is not a public administration. However these info are already known by
LL, they didn't require anything more than they already have. I gave mine
(again) because nothing said that these data were possibly going to be
published without my consent, at any time (LL has a privacy policy which is
not rewritten on the directory, so I assume the regular one applies). And if
my RL data became published one day without my consent, I'd have grounds to
sue LL for that and I'd win. Not that this is my intent in any way, but I'm
just saying that it would cause damage on both parts if such a thing
happened. So I am confident.


On 28 April 2010 20:40, Henri Beauchamp  wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:02:24 +0200, Marine Kelley wrote:
>
> > Hi, I'd like to thank whoever changed the application page on the Viewer
> > Directory, the RL info fields used to be "publishable" (they had a little
> > cross next to the little star indicating that they were mandatory), and
> > that's what was holding me from registering the RLV there. Today I just
> > noticed that these fields (RL name, address etc) are not "publishable"
> > anymore, which mostly addresses the concerns I had before, namely having
> my
> > RL info published without my agreement. Therefore I have applied to
> register
> > the RLV on the Viewer Directory today, we'll see how it goes.
>
> This is still *way* beyond what I am ready to provide to LL: it is
> *illegal*
> in France to require private data that is not strictly necessary to provide
> a service. Reference: Law Informatique et Liberté, Article 6, paragraph 3
> (http://www.cnil.fr/fileadmin/documents/en/Act78-17VA.pdf), citation:
> "The collected data [...] shall be adequate, relevant, and not excessive
> in relation to the purpose for which their are obtained and their further
> processing."
>
> Being published in the directory should not be made conditional to the
> divulgation of my real name and address. All what Linden Lab needs to
> have is my avatar name and an ISP based email (which they both already
> got): even in case of a legal issue, this info is sufficient for the
> police or the justice to identify me.
>
> Beside, given LL clearly states that they can modify the TPV policy at any
> time, how could you be sure that they won't suddenly decide to reveal your
> private data publicly ?... Another concern is about the security of your
> data. Linden Lab has already an history with data theft (see:
> http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2006/09/12/Second_Life_servers_hacked/1
> )
> and this may happen again, particularly with secondary and weakly protected
> databases such as the TPV directory.
>
> Sorry, but I will not endanger my real life by risking to get my real name
> publicly associated with my SL avatar name.
> As a French citizen, I will go by the French law which allows me to stay
> anonymous and preserve my private data.
>
> I already raised this concern, but apparently Linden Lab is ignoring it...
>
> For this reason and although fully TPV policy compliant, the Cool VL Viewer
> will not be registered in LL's TPV directory.
>
> Henri.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Andromeda Quonset]

At 12:40 PM 4/28/2010, you wrote:

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:02:24 +0200, Marine Kelley wrote:

> Hi, I'd like to thank whoever changed the application page on the Viewer
> Directory, the RL info fields used to be "publishable" (they had a little
> cross next to the little star indicating that they were mandatory), and
> that's what was holding me from registering the RLV there. Today I just
> noticed that these fields (RL name, address etc) are not "publishable"
> anymore, which mostly addresses the concerns I had before, namely having my
> RL info published without my agreement. 
Therefore I have applied to register

> the RLV on the Viewer Directory today, we'll see how it goes.

This is still *way* beyond what I am ready to provide to LL: it is *illegal*
in France to require private data that is not strictly necessary to provide
a service. Reference: Law Informatique et Liberté, Article 6, paragraph 3
(http://www.cnil.fr/fileadmin/documents/en/Act78-17VA.pdf), citation:
"The collected data [...] shall be adequate, relevant, and not excessive
in relation to the purpose for which their are obtained and their further
processing."

Being published in the directory should not be made conditional to the
divulgation of my real name and address. All what Linden Lab needs to
have is my avatar name and an ISP based email (which they both already
got): even in case of a legal issue, this info is sufficient for the
police or the justice to identify me.

Beside, given LL clearly states that they can modify the TPV policy at any
time, how could you be sure that they won't suddenly decide to reveal your
private data publicly ?... Another concern is about the security of your
data. Linden Lab has already an history with data theft (see:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2006/09/12/Second_Life_servers_hacked/1)
and this may happen again, particularly with secondary and weakly protected
databases such as the TPV directory.

Sorry, but I will not endanger my real life by risking to get my real name
publicly associated with my SL avatar name.
As a French citizen, I will go by the French law which allows me to stay
anonymous and preserve my private data.

I already raised this concern, but apparently Linden Lab is ignoring it...

For this reason and although fully TPV policy compliant, the Cool VL Viewer
will not be registered in LL's TPV directory.

Henri.


Henri,

I appreciate your reasons on this.  Also, I 
happen to predominantly use the Cool Viewer.
In addition, I also make a simple bot 
product.  Since it isn't "graphical", I don't consider it a "viewer".


I received an official-looking email 2 days ago 
from Linden Labs concerning third party viewers.

The first paragraph was quite interesting:

"This is just a quick reminder that the 
Policy 
on Third-Party Viewers will take effect this 
Friday, April 30, 2010. To continue to enjoy 
Second Life without interruption or 
inconvenience, please check to make sure that you 
are using the latest version of a compliant viewer."


This seems to me to be a contradiction to what LL 
has said here.  There is an implication that 
TPV's that are not in the TPV Directory will be blocked.


That aside, I investigated the application form 
for the 3rd party viewer.  It does ask for my 
real name, but has that already filled-out for 
me, and is marked as something they won't 
publish.  It asks for age verification, which I 
completed years ago.  They have my payment 
information on-file already. It also asks for a 
secondary email address to use with my viewer, 
and that I already publish widely.


It does NOT ask for the address for where I live.

As for data-theft issues, I am not 
unsympathetic.  A few months ago, Citicorp made 
an error and I was included in the group of 
_customers_ that had their Social Security 
numbers printed on the front of the envelope.


Andro
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Re: [opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Henri Beauchamp]

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:34:29 +0200, Marine Kelley wrote:

> This is not a choice I made lightly, but many people simply did not
> understand why the RLV was not in the directory, and despite the number of
> times I said it was compliant, people just can't get their heads around the
> fact that TPV policy compliance and Viewer Directory listing are two totally
> different things. So I yielded.

In fact, it probably comes from the fact that Linden Lab uses contradictory
phrases in the TPV policy and in the TPV directory.

Quoting the former:

"Unlike the other sections of this Policy, participation in the Viewer
Directory is currently not a requirement for connecting to Second Life."

And quoting the latter:

"Beware of third-party viewers that are not in the Viewer Directory – they
have either declined to self-certify or been refused for noncompliance
with our policies."

So, registering to the directory is clearly not a requirement to be
considered as TPV-policy compliant, but on the other hand LL suggests that
the viewers which are not in the directory are "dangerous" ones...
This is both unfair and very close to pure diffamation.

Not to mention that being listed in the directory does not represent any
guarantee either, and this time both the TPV policy and the text in the
directory say the same thing: 

"However, because third-party viewers are not our viewers, we cannot
guarantee that they will follow our rules. You are responsible for
evaluating whether you want to use and share information with them."

and:

"The Viewer Directory is a self-certification program. Linden Lab does not
represent or warrant any independent testing or verification of compliance
of any application listed in the Viewer Directory. We disclaim all liability
associated with applications in the Viewer Directory."

I therefore would like to see LL remove that unfair and diffamatory phrase
in the TPV directory...

> Yes in some countries, requiring private RL data is illegal for a company
> that is not a public administration. However these info are already known by
> LL, they didn't require anything more than they already have.

You are wrong: LL doesn't have a clue of my RL address since I pay via
Paypal and only a name and valid email address are needed for this.

I do not see what knowing my snail mail address could bring to LL:
this is clearly and excessive requirement.

Beside, there is a difference between having private data held in a
payment database (which is usually well protected, even though it was
that very database that LL let leak out in 2007...), and having the
same data held in a low grade protection database such as the TPV
directory... Beside the level of data protection involved, there is
also the issue about who, at LL, can access the private data: I don't
see why a random Linden having access to the TPV directory would be
suddenly allowed to know exactly who I am and where I live.

> I gave mine (again) because nothing said that these data were possibly
> going to be published without my consent, at any time (LL has a privacy
> policy which is not rewritten on the directory, so I assume the regular
> one applies). And if my RL data became published one day without my
> consent, I'd have grounds to sue LL for that and I'd win.

Good luck to sue a US company from France (and vice versa) !...

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, I won't take the risk and won't trust
LL (or any other company on Internet, even French ones) about being able
to keep my data safe from prying eyes...

> Not that this is my intent in any way, but I'm just saying that it would
> cause damage on both parts if such a thing happened. So I am confident.

Fact is data theft already occured at LL and the only damages were for
their residents...

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:50:11 -0600, Andromeda Quonset wrote:

> That aside, I investigated the application form for the 3rd party viewer.
> It does ask for my real name, but has that already filled-out for me,
> and is marked as something they won't publish.  It asks for age
> verification, which I completed years ago.  They have my payment 
> information on-file already. It also asks for a secondary email address
> to use with my viewer, and that I already publish widely.
> 
> It does NOT ask for the address for where I live.

It does... I just checked again...

Henri.

---
Reference email:

> On 28 April 2010 20:40, Henri Beauchamp  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:02:24 +0200, Marine Kelley wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, I'd like to thank whoever changed the application page on the Viewer
> > > Directory, the RL info fields used to be "publishable" (they had a little
> > > cross next to the little star indicating that they were mandatory), and
> > > that's what was holding me from registering the RLV there. Today I just
> > > noticed that these fields (RL name, address etc) are not "publishable"
> > > anymore, which mostly addresses the concerns I had before, namely having
> > my
> > > RL info p

Re: [opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Andromeda Quonset]

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:50:11 -0600, Andromeda Quonset wrote:

 > That aside, I investigated the application form for the 3rd party viewer.
 > It does ask for my real name, but has that already filled-out for me,
 > and is marked as something they won't publish.  It asks for age
 > verification, which I completed years ago.  They have my payment
 > information on-file already. It also asks for a secondary email address
 > to use with my viewer, and that I already publish widely.
 > It does NOT ask for the address for where I live.

 >>> It does... I just checked again... Henri.

Confirmed, it DOES require a snail-mail address.  I don't know how I 
missed it, unless perhaps the page didn't load 100% when I was 
looking earlier.  In any case, it is basically a non-issue for me, as 
I have an established box at the post office for my software business.

Andro

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[opensource-dev] inventory trash icon missing

[zaxa congrejo]

hi there people ive recently made some changes to my skin to use in viewr
2.0 and in that process i find a confing that gives me the option of show or
not show invetory trash icon
at the time i select not show but now i want to revert that unfortunatly for
me i cant find that config again ive looked in the


 (i have trash but its a folder not a icon)

xml scripts
debug views
develope and admin menus and nothing does anyone know that config? realy
apriciate some help
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Re: [opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Bryon Ruxton]

Henri,
> So, registering to the directory is clearly not a requirement to be
considered
as TPV-policy compliant, but on the other hand LL suggests that
the viewers
which are not in the directory are "dangerous" ones...
This is both unfair and
very close to pure diffamation.
The viewer is required to comply, just make your viewer comply and don't
register in the directory. If they are to prevent any viewer that does not
comply with the TPV  to connect to the grid I am glad for it.

And I agree with you in substance with your privacy claims, but you have to
live in the real world and you have to abide by California law here. You own
interpretation of French law is irrelevant. Yes LL has a wishy-washy policy
designed not to accept any responsibility for anything. Guess what! So does
Google and every hosting company on the planet, I have the same type of
clauses as a business and doing otherwise would stupid and putting my
company and myself at risk.

If you are not willing to trust anyone with your basic information, you may
want to start building your own personal datacenter Henri.
You ARE trusting free.fr and Paypal with even more sensitive data btw...

What should I or anyone trust using your viewer if there is so much to hide
and unwillingness to provide a real name and a simple physical address.

If I applied your own standards of trust, I am afraid I see no way for me to
even consider using your viewer for my own protection. Just think about it.

On 4/28/10 2:57 PM, "Henri Beauchamp"  wrote:

> Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, I won't take the risk and won't trust
LL
> (or any other company on Internet, even French ones) about being able
to keep
> my data safe from prying eyes...



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[opensource-dev] Seperate Branches VC90

[Nicky Perian]

Brad,

The past week I having been fighting a cmake issue in that I can't seem to 
build w/o referencing VC80 boost libraries at secondlife.exe link. Also, 
falling back to VC80 to check for changes that affect the basic build and back 
requires reverting 3 local plus 2 contributed patches and then patching again 
for vc90. I have attempted to isolate vc90 from vc80 but have been unable to so 
far. Would additional vc90 only branches be in order? If so, how can I assign 
them locally and be prepared to commit them at some point. Also, some of the 
problems appear related to having both vc80 and vc90 on the same machine. 
Chroot for windows would sure be nice at this point.

Would like to do a little coding at some point but, I need a stable build 
system or that is out of the question.

Nicky


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[opensource-dev] Fwd: Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

oops, it seems i didn't send this to the list, sorry

-  Original Message 
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer
Directory requirements
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:30:30 -0300
From: Tigro Spottystripes 
Reply-To: Tigro Spottystripes 
To: Bryon Ruxton 

There are plenty of potential bad consequences of sharing your private
information on the web, wanting to avoid the spread of your RL info
doesn't necessarily mean that you got any criminal activities you wanna
hide.
On 28/4/2010 20:16, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
> Henri,
>> So, registering to the directory is clearly not a requirement to be
> considered
> as TPV-policy compliant, but on the other hand LL suggests that
> the viewers
> which are not in the directory are "dangerous" ones...
> This is both unfair and
> very close to pure diffamation.
> The viewer is required to comply, just make your viewer comply and don't
> register in the directory. If they are to prevent any viewer that does not
> comply with the TPV  to connect to the grid I am glad for it.
>
> And I agree with you in substance with your privacy claims, but you have to
> live in the real world and you have to abide by California law here. You own
> interpretation of French law is irrelevant. Yes LL has a wishy-washy policy
> designed not to accept any responsibility for anything. Guess what! So does
> Google and every hosting company on the planet, I have the same type of
> clauses as a business and doing otherwise would stupid and putting my
> company and myself at risk.
>
> If you are not willing to trust anyone with your basic information, you may
> want to start building your own personal datacenter Henri.
> You ARE trusting free.fr and Paypal with even more sensitive data btw...
>
> What should I or anyone trust using your viewer if there is so much to hide
> and unwillingness to provide a real name and a simple physical address.
>
> If I applied your own standards of trust, I am afraid I see no way for me to
> even consider using your viewer for my own protection. Just think about it.
>
> On 4/28/10 2:57 PM, "Henri Beauchamp"  wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, I won't take the risk and won't trust
> LL
>> (or any other company on Internet, even French ones) about being able
> to keep
>> my data safe from prying eyes...
>
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Latif Khalifa]

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Henri Beauchamp  wrote:
> In fact, it probably comes from the fact that Linden Lab uses contradictory
> phrases in the TPV policy and in the TPV directory.
>
> Quoting the former:
>
> "Unlike the other sections of this Policy, participation in the Viewer
> Directory is currently not a requirement for connecting to Second Life."
>
> And quoting the latter:
>
> "Beware of third-party viewers that are not in the Viewer Directory – they
> have either declined to self-certify or been refused for noncompliance
> with our policies."
>
> So, registering to the directory is clearly not a requirement to be
> considered as TPV-policy compliant, but on the other hand LL suggests that
> the viewers which are not in the directory are "dangerous" ones...
> This is both unfair and very close to pure diffamation.

I agree that this is very unfortunate wording on part of Linden Lab. I
have got a lot of concerned emails and some comments on the site[1]
"will I be banned if I continue to use Radegast" due to that "beware"
sentence on the directory page. Some of the emails I got were almost
panicky. I hope the wording can be changed in order not to cause panic
and uncertainty among TPV users.

Latif

[1] - http://radegastclient.org/wp/2010/04/radegast-1-16-released/#comments
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Re: [opensource-dev] Thank you for updating the Viewer Directory requirements

[Tateru Nino]

On 29/04/2010 1:43 PM, Latif Khalifa wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Henri Beauchamp  wrote:
>   
>> In fact, it probably comes from the fact that Linden Lab uses contradictory
>> phrases in the TPV policy and in the TPV directory.
>>
>> Quoting the former:
>>
>> "Unlike the other sections of this Policy, participation in the Viewer
>> Directory is currently not a requirement for connecting to Second Life."
>>
>> And quoting the latter:
>>
>> "Beware of third-party viewers that are not in the Viewer Directory – they
>> have either declined to self-certify or been refused for noncompliance
>> with our policies."
>>
>> So, registering to the directory is clearly not a requirement to be
>> considered as TPV-policy compliant, but on the other hand LL suggests that
>> the viewers which are not in the directory are "dangerous" ones...
>> This is both unfair and very close to pure diffamation.
>> 
> I agree that this is very unfortunate wording on part of Linden Lab. I
> have got a lot of concerned emails and some comments on the site[1]
> "will I be banned if I continue to use Radegast" due to that "beware"
> sentence on the directory page. Some of the emails I got were almost
> panicky. I hope the wording can be changed in order not to cause panic
> and uncertainty among TPV users.
>
> Latif
>
> [1] - http://radegastclient.org/wp/2010/04/radegast-1-16-released/#comments
>   
Yeah, after the blog post from Marty yesterday, there's a lot of chatter
among users who are concerned that they'll be banned if they don't
switch back to an official viewer or one in the directory ASAP. It's
certainly easy enough to see how they got that impression.

-- 
Tateru Nino
Contributing Editor http://massively.com/

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