On 2/15/21 7:21 PM, Judah Kocher wrote:
Hello Theo,
I never for a moment intended to convey that anyone "owed" me support
of any kind for my outside-the-box use of this tool. While I don't
understand your vitriolic response to someone else's application of
your software for their own personal use in a way you do not condone,
you are certainly entitled to be as outraged as you please. I remain
grateful for the work you and others put into the OpenBSD operating
system. It has been made clear on multiple occasions that use of
sysupgrade with anything other than default responses is heretical and
cancel-culture worthy but I don't mind breaking things while
experimenting and do not blame anyone else when this happens, nor do I
particularly care if anyone else is bothered by it as long as no
actual harm is being done.
If anyone cares to read my original query from an intellectually
honest perspective I think they would be hard pressed to respond as
you have. I never claimed my "sysupgrade use was completely normal"
nor did I blame the sysupgrade tool for the issue I am attempting to
diagnose. I did not mention my usage of it because logically it does
not seem to be relevant and I was concerned it would become an excuse
for people to fly off the handle. I only had and still only have one
question.
Does sysupgrade leave any kind of logging behind which could help me
to pinpoint why it is failing on one system while working on another
apparently identical system?
If the answer is no, that's easy enough to say. If the answer is yes,
that's also easy enough if anyone is willing to share where those logs
would be found. If the answer is, "Maybe, but no one owes you that
information" that is also perfectly true while kind of pointless to
even bother saying, although a world where people only offer help to
others when there is a financial obligation would be a dismal place
indeed.
I did not and do not expect anyone else to solve my problem for me. If
you have reason to believe that my "mis-"usage of sysupgrade has
anything at all to do with this issue, I'd be curious to know how you
would explain it working on 4 out of 6 systems. Since it seems
unlikely that the exact same tool would work two different ways on two
identical systems then logically I would assume that some subtle
difference exists between them and was hopeful that any records of the
sysupgrade process would help me identify that difference. I have been
using this script on these and other less similar systems ever since
the sysupgrade tool was released with no issues, and therefore I think
it's reasonable to to conclude that using it this way, while not
officially sanctioned, has nothing to do with what's going on in this
particular case.
Thank you again for your work on OpenBSD, including sysupgrade.
To everyone else on the mailing list, I do not apologize for asking a
question but I do apologize for the drama it provoked.
Judah
On 2/14/21 6:44 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
You are outside the box, by changing tons of stuff.
People who operate inside the box won't be able to help you.
And it is even less likely when you are dishonest in the original email.
You claimed your sysupgrade use was completely normal, but it isn't.
It is far from normal.
When we get reports like this where people "touch the insides", both
Florian and I regret that sysupgrade ever arrived in the system.
We want to delete sysupgrade. Or, every month or so change the
internals
so that it will delete some people's machines.
Does sysupgrade recommend what you do? No. But you do it. Do you
understand
the concept of "you own all the pieces"?
The drama was there, but not of Theo, but mine and someone else who
kinda derailed this splitting
this topic in separate threads "deleting sysupgrade" and "not deleting
sysupgrade", however,
It might be better to use stable for unattended systems, while just
having 'syspatch && pkg_add -u'
script in cron for systems that are not intended to be so much
interactively used.
If sysupgrade(8) does not mention any logging done by it it likely
doesnt, and as 'whereis sysupgrade'
shows it is at /usr/sbin/sysupgrade, and its a shell script which can be
viewed by an unprivilleged user
using something like less. And it is not that long to investigate or
improve on your own.
As for your use of it, you might be better with your own custom way of
upgrading, that you can
handle and log on your own.
Just my 2 cents.
Keep it Simple Stupid.
P.S. Sorry, but I've never used mailing lists before (since few days ago)
and I just sent this reply to bugs instead of here.
