Re: Voice over LTE
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi, On 3/10/24 1:26 pm, Russell Coker via luv-main wrote: > On Thursday, 3 October 2024 09:09:20 AEST Duncan Roe via luv-main wrote: >> ** You can text 3 to 3498 on either Telstra or Optus networks for a text >> response as to whether you'll be OK > > The text response will tell you if it records VoLTE as working a couple of > weeks ago (change phones and it will take > weeks to notice). That doesn't reflect whether emergency calls can work as > desired, ideally 000 will work even if the > phone is locked or has no SIM. Just another experience to relay. I have a Moto G 5G Plus that I had a screen repair done, due to a shattered screen; the repair not so good, but that is another matter. My OnePlus 5 mobile these days is normally only used these days via WiFi hotspot from the Moto, it needs a battery replacement and the OP5 is rather old now and not supporting VoLTE (unless I'm mistaken). Anyway because of the screen repair, I ejected a SIM from the Moto and placed it in to the OP5. Later, not sure exactly when, I got a message to the Moto saying that my phone was not supported; I think this was only due to the fact that something was "registered" when the SIM was in the OP5; there were no former messages and none since then either. NB: The Moto was a "Telstra" version and I believe, aside from the screen issue, is a rather good phone despite the lack of security support from Motorola of course. It isn't running on the Telstra network now and it never was "locked" to any network. So I think this mobile probably has Telstra VoLTE support as well as the standard VoLTE support which it is using on the Optus network via a reseller. I'm not trusting any SMS of 3 to 3498 as I don't think the returned results are going to be useful or even accurate because as it seems from other experiences here, it is using a lookup that has faulty or missing data and it is not doing a proper test that can be relied upon and therefore any success will probably lead to a false sense of security rather than real peace of mind. This may very well result in a number of deaths that should have otherwise been avoided. > The changes being discussed include potentially locking from the network all > phones that are deemed unable to properly > work with 000. I'd be happy with a phone that doesn't have VoLTE if the > provider had a SIP or email option for getting > voicemail and sent SMS notifications of "missed" calls. Also, my understanding of calling 000 for a test, you can do it, but you should stay on the line and tell them specifically that you were just testing; however, given the current debacle and timing, it is NOT recommended to do this test. This really is not good enough (NGE). Absolutely the test should be real time and any results from sending an SMS should be able to be relied upon; but neither seems like being worthwhile right now. Paying for a third party app, from the video, should not be necessary either; the Telcos should provide an app that does a proper test and which can be 100% relied upon. The numbers on the petition are still very, very low; so many more people need to be made aware of the issues. And I do believe, perhaps with too much faith, that any issues with turning off the 3G network MUST be fixed, perhaps they actually will ... despite the issues that have been raised. I am sure that the 3G network will be required for quite a while yet, unless Telstra can be forced to follow the same standards as the other two network providers in AU and all can be guaranteed that VoLTE is going to work just fine when it is most needed for emergency calls. And if the Optus report is still true about VoLTE only supporting on-net calls, then that is a total disaster -- calling between the 3 network providers should be transparent and not have to rely on fallback to 3G (which won't be available or 2G which is not now available). I too agree that, perhaps, a VoIP option might be suitable, but only if it is also guaranteed to work without any issues relating to STUN or other servers behaving badly or not responding when needed or at all. The whole issue of excessive e-waste is also a huge concern for mobiles now, as is the after market "value" for used devices that are still, useful or should still be useful. Related to this, I hope that Microsoft is forced to change their stance on Windows 11 support as that will cause either a huge number of unsupported computers running Windows 10 without updates from October, 2025 and perhaaps a relatively small number of unsupported machines running Winodws 11 with risk of not getting necessary updates if any at all. Consequently many business in particular, but also many private consumers will junk otherwise very good computers and that only means excessively high levels of e-waste. I've seen some very good older machines doing a reasonable job in business with extended usag
Re: Voice over LTE
On Friday, 4 October 2024 10:41:34 AEST Les Kitchen via luv-main wrote: > [If people think this thread is not enough Linux-specific, maybe > we can move it to luv-talk. For now, I'm going with the flow, > because I think it's an issue of importance to Linux (and FOSS) > users generally.] All the issues here become more complex if you run your own Linux build on it, LineageOS, Droidian, or Mobian. So it's very relevant. > - What about a phone used only, or primarily, for data? Sure, > there are data-only SIMs (in passing: how are they affected by > this regulation?). But often the cheapest way to get data is > just to sign up for a data-competitive phone plan and just > ignore that it can also provide phonecalls. There is nothing wrong with having a phone for SMS only. I have a work phone for Teams and Slack messages. There's no reason to force my employer to provide a tablet and to force me to carry a tablet when I just want a small device for notifications. Also people who are deaf shouldn't be forced to buy phones capable of making calls when they don't have a need for it. > Admittedly, these issues probably affect only a minority > of phone users, but an important minority, especially for > innovation. The needs of deaf people are important to legislation. I think that a "reasonable accommodation" under the ADA means allowing deaf people to use the best phone regardless of VoLTE capabilities. > Not only the carriers, but the entrenched big-name mobile phone > brands, who are pretty cosy with the telcos. They also want to > suppress competition. And I'd say it's a calculated stealth > monopoly by creating anxiety that if people don't buy a > telco-peddled phone they'll be "unsupported". Yes. > My reading of the ACMA Determination is that for a foreign > traveller it's not about roaming per se (when the customer > relation is with the foreign provider), but about when the > traveller purchases a local SIM. It seems the traveller could > use it only for 60 days on an "unsupported" phone. And the > Determination itself says in part about the exception: > > the mobile phone is being used by a foreign traveller in >Australia who intends to remain in Australia for a period of >time which is less than a specified period of time > > Since it's based on intent, it seems a rather squishy concept. > I doubt that would have much effect on the telco's business. > But maybe your reading is different. This is also an issue for lending SIMs. If a friend from another country visits I should be able to lend them the SIM I use for PinePhonePro testing without any restriction on them or on me. The best option when visiting another country is borrowing a SIM, it's cheaper and you can be sure that coverage will be good. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Bloghttp://doc.coker.com.au/ ___ luv-main mailing list -- luv-main@luv.asn.au To unsubscribe send an email to luv-main-le...@luv.asn.au
Re: Re: Voice over LTE (Les Kitchen)
> > Yeah. Does anybody know how the telcos make this determination? > Clearly, they're not assessing live the actual technical > capabilities of the phone, as shown by my experience "your > device is not a mobile phone". Presumably, they're looking up > in some (incomplete) database of phone models. But how do they > make the link between the phone in my hand sending that SMS and > the phone model? Is it via the IMEI, and there's some global > database relating IMEIs to manufacturers' models? Or is somehow > in the handshake between the phone and the network when it first > connects? > > This whole thing has not been thought through well at all. Just > some things that come to mind: > - What if SIMs are swapped among various phones? Is service on > that SIM cancelled if it's temporarily in an "unsupported" > phone? > - What if an Australian SIM is internationally roaming? It > seems nutty to cancel that service because it can't call > Australian 000. (Emergency calling when roaming seems to be a > very messy thing.) > - What about a phone used only, or primarily, for data? Sure, > there are data-only SIMs (in passing: how are they affected by > this regulation?). But often the cheapest way to get data is > just to sign up for a data-competitive phone plan and just > ignore that it can also provide phonecalls. > Admittedly, these issues probably affect only a minority > of phone users, but an important minority, especially for > innovation. > > I believe they just lookup the model from the IMEI. It's not accurate at all and they don't have motivation to fix it. ___ luv-main mailing list -- luv-main@luv.asn.au To unsubscribe send an email to luv-main-le...@luv.asn.au
Re: Voice over LTE
Hi Duncan! On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, at 09:09, Duncan Roe via luv-main wrote: > ** You can text 3 to 3498 on either Telstra or Optus networks for a text > response as to whether you'll be OK Well, yes. But as I related in my post, for both my phones in use, an original Google Pixel and a Pinephone, the response is "our records show that your device is not a mobile phone", showing that their database certainly has some deficiencies. I suspect that at best, it has only recent, main-stream phone models. Also, see my later reply to Russell Coker's post (coming, I hope, within the next hour). — Smiles, Les. ___ luv-main mailing list -- luv-main@luv.asn.au To unsubscribe send an email to luv-main-le...@luv.asn.au
Re: Voice over LTE
[If people think this thread is not enough Linux-specific, maybe
we can move it to luv-talk. For now, I'm going with the flow,
because I think it's an issue of importance to Linux (and FOSS)
users generally.]
Hi Russell (and rest of list),
On Thu, Oct 3, 2024, at 13:26, Russell Coker via luv-main wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 October 2024 09:09:20 AEST Duncan Roe via luv-main wrote:
>> ** You can text 3 to 3498 on either Telstra or Optus networks for a text
>> response as to whether you'll be OK
>
> The text response will tell you if it records VoLTE as working a couple of
> weeks ago (change phones and it will take weeks to notice). That doesn't
> reflect whether emergency calls can work as desired, ideally 000 will work
> even if the phone is locked or has no SIM.
Yeah. Does anybody know how the telcos make this determination?
Clearly, they're not assessing live the actual technical
capabilities of the phone, as shown by my experience "your
device is not a mobile phone". Presumably, they're looking up
in some (incomplete) database of phone models. But how do they
make the link between the phone in my hand sending that SMS and
the phone model? Is it via the IMEI, and there's some global
database relating IMEIs to manufacturers' models? Or is somehow
in the handshake between the phone and the network when it first
connects?
This whole thing has not been thought through well at all. Just
some things that come to mind:
- What if SIMs are swapped among various phones? Is service on
that SIM cancelled if it's temporarily in an "unsupported"
phone?
- What if an Australian SIM is internationally roaming? It
seems nutty to cancel that service because it can't call
Australian 000. (Emergency calling when roaming seems to be a
very messy thing.)
- What about a phone used only, or primarily, for data? Sure,
there are data-only SIMs (in passing: how are they affected by
this regulation?). But often the cheapest way to get data is
just to sign up for a data-competitive phone plan and just
ignore that it can also provide phonecalls.
Admittedly, these issues probably affect only a minority
of phone users, but an important minority, especially for
innovation.
> The changes being discussed include potentially locking from the network all
> phones that are deemed unable to properly work with 000. I'd be happy with a
> phone that doesn't have VoLTE if the provider had a SIP or email option for
> getting voicemail and sent SMS notifications of "missed" calls.
Well, yes. And that's really alarming. All the more reason for
taking what action we can, like signing that Change.org
petition, making an ACMA submission (deadline this coming
Tuesday), and writing to our Federal MPs and Senators. At the risk
of being annoying, links repeated here. I feel that this is
important, especially for FOSS people like us.
-
https://www.change.org/p/stop-telco-4g-5g-device-blocking-volte-restrictions-australia-s-3g-shutdown
- https://www.acma.gov.au/consultations/2024-09/proposal-amend-ecs-determination
(Submission deadline 8th October 2024.)
- https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Contacting_Senators_and_Members
+ I also found on a (Duckduckgo) search
https://commonslibrary.org/how-to-contact-australian-members-of-parliament/
They seem here to collect various useful links into the
Australian Parliament website.
> It seems like carriers want a monopoly on selling phones in Australia which
> regulation might grant them. The only mitigating factor is that they might
> lose the extremely profitable roaming market.
Not only the carriers, but the entrenched big-name mobile phone
brands, who are pretty cosy with the telcos. They also want to
suppress competition. And I'd say it's a calculated stealth
monopoly by creating anxiety that if people don't buy a
telco-peddled phone they'll be "unsupported".
Pushing people out of fear to buy really unneeded new phones is
also bad for the environment from an electronic-waste point of
view.
As with so many things, what we need are solid, impartial,
strong technical standards. Unfortunately, governments tend to
be captured by rent-seeking corporations.
My reading of the ACMA Determination is that for a foreign
traveller it's not about roaming per se (when the customer
relation is with the foreign provider), but about when the
traveller purchases a local SIM. It seems the traveller could
use it only for 60 days on an "unsupported" phone. And the
Determination itself says in part about the exception:
the mobile phone is being used by a foreign traveller in
Australia who intends to remain in Australia for a period of
time which is less than a specified period of time
Since it's based on intent, it seems a rather squishy concept.
I doubt that would have much effect on the telco's business.
But maybe your reading is different.
— Smiles (to you, but not to the Government), Les.
