Re: OT: Postgraduate studies

2011-07-28 Thread Antony Gelberg 
How I bill myself is a whole other can of worms, and has been for
years.  I don't have a snappy title.

I merely have a CS BSc, so technically I'm not a "computer scientist".
 I've spent the last 15 years involved in software development, mainly
bespoke, and acquired good PM, business, and sysadmin(!) skills along
the way.  So I don't see myself as "just" a software engineer, I'm
broader than that, and PM / BI / SA roles suit as well.

Whether this is a Good Thing in the eyes of people who read CVs is
unknown, as I have consulted for the last ten years - this is the
first time in that period that I'm actually looking around in the
market, considering offers etc.

Antony


2011/7/27 Jonathan Ben Avraham :
> Hi Antony,
> If you are a "computer scientist" then you better get an MSc, if not a PhD
> quick.
>
> If you were a "software engineer" then I'd say why bother.
>
> If you are a code hacker who writes 5,000 lines a week, then don't bother
> telling anyone you even have a degree - if they find out, just say you
> forgot.
>
> It depends on how you want to bill yourself.
>
> Now as for employers, most want you to work overtime for a few years and
> then they are more generous about letting you study part-time.
>
> Regards,
>
>  - yba
>
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Antony Gelberg wrote:
>
>> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:53:41 +0300
>> From: Antony Gelberg 
>> To: Linux-IL 
>> Subject: OT: Postgraduate studies
>>
>> (I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.)
>>
>> I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet
>> plus.  15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO
>> of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew.
>>
>> So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career.  I've been
>> browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I
>> was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed.
>> However most positions seem to require an MSc.  There is a definite
>> cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees
>> - I don't have one.  I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but
>> at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were
>> really useful career-wise.  Naturally, it's also too late in the year
>> to apply for the upcoming academic year...
>>
>> I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it
>> would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I
>> should settle for a role where "just" a BSc is required, and see if I
>> can work with future employer to study whilst I work...
>>
>> Antony
>>
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Re: OT: Postgraduate studies

2011-07-28 Thread Jonathan Ben Avraham 

Hi Antony,
You don't need another degree to earn a reasonable salary in this 
country with the skills  you already apparently have. If you want a 
position in research, or a  titled position such as "CTO" then you will 
need another degree or two.


 - yba


On Thu, 28 Jul 2011, Antony Gelberg wrote:


Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:16 +0300
From: Antony Gelberg 
To: Jonathan Ben Avraham 
Cc: Linux-IL 
Subject: Re: OT: Postgraduate studies

How I bill myself is a whole other can of worms, and has been for
years.  I don't have a snappy title.

I merely have a CS BSc, so technically I'm not a "computer scientist".
I've spent the last 15 years involved in software development, mainly
bespoke, and acquired good PM, business, and sysadmin(!) skills along
the way.  So I don't see myself as "just" a software engineer, I'm
broader than that, and PM / BI / SA roles suit as well.

Whether this is a Good Thing in the eyes of people who read CVs is
unknown, as I have consulted for the last ten years - this is the
first time in that period that I'm actually looking around in the
market, considering offers etc.

Antony


2011/7/27 Jonathan Ben Avraham :

Hi Antony,
If you are a "computer scientist" then you better get an MSc, if not a PhD
quick.

If you were a "software engineer" then I'd say why bother.

If you are a code hacker who writes 5,000 lines a week, then don't bother
telling anyone you even have a degree - if they find out, just say you
forgot.

It depends on how you want to bill yourself.

Now as for employers, most want you to work overtime for a few years and
then they are more generous about letting you study part-time.

Regards,

 - yba



On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Antony Gelberg wrote:


Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:53:41 +0300
From: Antony Gelberg 
To: Linux-IL 
Subject: OT: Postgraduate studies

(I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.)

I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet
plus.  15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO
of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew.

So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career.  I've been
browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I
was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed.
However most positions seem to require an MSc.  There is a definite
cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees
- I don't have one.  I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but
at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were
really useful career-wise.  Naturally, it's also too late in the year
to apply for the upcoming academic year...

I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it
would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I
should settle for a role where "just" a BSc is required, and see if I
can work with future employer to study whilst I work...

Antony

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Re: OT: Postgraduate studies

2011-07-28 Thread Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda 
2011/7/27 Oleg Goldshmidt 

>
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Antony Gelberg 
> wrote:
>
>> (I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.)
>>
>> I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet
>> plus.  15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO
>> of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew.
>>
>> So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career.  I've been
>> browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I
>> was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed.
>> However most positions seem to require an MSc.  There is a definite
>> cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees
>> - I don't have one.  I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but
>> at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were
>> really useful career-wise.  Naturally, it's also too late in the year
>> to apply for the upcoming academic year...
>>
>>
For most programs and schools, you can start an MSc in the spring semester
as well (enrollment is around November). But (at least in the Technion)
there is also late enrollment for the winter semester, for special cases, so
you can start this October.

If you feel that applying to jobs where "just" a BSc is required (there are
lots of those) is settling, then I think you definitely should do another
degree.

Studying while working is a bad idea usually (if you can afford not to). The
context switches are a waste of time. A big one. The exception is that a
student with no experience has a hard time finding a job. But since you have
already worked, and you are professionally mature, this does not matter to
you. In addition, it is usually frowned upon by both employers and academy.


> I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it
>> would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I
>> should settle for a role where "just" a BSc is required, and see if I
>> can work with future employer to study whilst I work...
>>
>
> Hi Anthony,
>
> IMHO, an advanced degree may help you get considered for a really
> interesting position and may also help get your CV into the door - at
> certain companies. I doubt that too many places really make an M.Sc. or a
> Ph.D. a _requirement_. If you are looking for a position with a lot of
> independence, doing some kind of "research" or other "advanced" or
> "forward-looking" stuff, it may be useful. If you are looking for
> development or development management (for instance), I doubt there is a lot
> of significance to it.  It depends on the company and on its management: if
> they fancy themselves a "research" outfit and value people who can come up
> with and develop an original idea your chances will improve with an advanced
> degree. If the focus is delivering a product to spec, on schedule, and under
> budget then the effect is likely to be minimal. [This is by no means
> intended as a criticism of any product-oriented company, just an observation
> that is not backed by any real research or analysis.]
>
> IBM Research Labs in Haifa (HRL) do put an emphasis on advanced degrees for
> "Research Staff Member" positions and higher. I'd consider them an
> exception. Maybe other very large companies (Microsoft, Google, Intel?) give
> bonus points. I know some people (chuckle) who went quite far at HRL without
> a degree though, so if you are good and if your CV is impressive even there
> things will be flexible.
>
> A faculty or adjunct position at a university may require a degree.
>
> The chances that your employer will be happy to let you work part time and
> do postgraduate work are not high. Depends on the fit, and this is hard to
> predict. HRL may allow this on occasion. For smaller and more
> product-oriented companies it is less attractive, but may happen. I've seen
> a few cases like that, but this is not common.
>
> FWIW, I have worked at HRL, taught at a university, and worked at a number
> of other companies, and I have an advanced degree... ;-) Overall, I would
> say that a Ph.D. helped a lot to get interesting and at times unusual
> positions in different fields. I got it in my twenties though, you will have
> to assess your own willingness to invest time and effort and to work part
> time or not at all for a while. Maybe being an oleh hadash is an
> opportunity?
>
> By the way, if you decide to try more studies, check - it is quite possible
> you can start a masters in mid-year.
>
> --
> Oleg Goldshmidt | o...@goldshmidt.org
>
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>
>


-- 
Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda.
http://ladypine.org
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Re: OT: Postgraduate studies

2011-07-28 Thread Elazar Leibovich 
2011/7/28 Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda 

>
> In addition, it is usually frowned upon by both employers and academy.
>

Quoting my conversation with the head of applied math department in TAU:

- Is it possible to learn here during full time job?
- Most of our students here are studying while working.

So I'm not sure how much is that frowned in all Universities.
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Re: OT: Postgraduate studies

2011-07-28 Thread Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda 
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Elazar Leibovich  wrote:

> 2011/7/28 Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda 
>
>>
>> In addition, it is usually frowned upon by both employers and academy.
>>
>
> Quoting my conversation with the head of applied math department in TAU:
>
> - Is it possible to learn here during full time job?
> - Most of our students here are studying while working.
>
> So I'm not sure how much is that frowned in all Universities.
>

It is even encouraged in business management, for example, and in industrial
engineering. But in CS in the Technion they require a 5 point higher grade
average from external students, and extreme performance if you want to do
your PhD as an external student. Prof. Orna Grumberg told me that the reason
they do not like to take external students is that from their experience,
these students rarely graduate.

Of course, it could be that tuition is so high in some faculties, and
investment is so small, that they would not care if you graduate as long as
you pay. However, being a student, I tend to take the student's POV - I want
to make sure I graduate.


-- 
Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda.
http://ladypine.org
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Re: OT: Postgraduate studies

2011-07-28 Thread sammy ominsky 
On 28/07/2011, at 07:25, Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda wrote:

> Studying while working is a bad idea usually (if you can afford not to). The
> context switches are a waste of time. A big one. The exception is that a
> student with no experience has a hard time finding a job. But since you have
> already worked, and you are professionally mature, this does not matter to
> you. In addition, it is usually frowned upon by both employers and academy.


I strenuously disagree.  Both my wife and I, and my brother's girlfriend, have 
gotten post-grad degrees in our 30's and 40's.  In both of the ladies' cases, 
though not mine, it meant more money for the same position, just by virtue of 
the fact that they now have a new set of initials to their name.

In my case, a coworker and I discussed which of us would go back to school 
first so the other could pick up the slack caused by the context switches.  It 
can be done if you find a way.

My wife had permission from her management to work on schoolwork during slack 
work hours because it was well understood that my wife had enrolled in school 
for her own performance improvement, and would bring that to work with her 
every day thereafter.  It's a long-term career sort of place, so nobody's 
afraid she'll jump ship at a better offer.

sambo
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OT: Postgraduate studies

2011-07-28 Thread Tom Balazs 
Gvahim is a great resource for all new immigrants, especially those with a
technical background or advanced degrees.
https://gvahim.org.il/
Maybe they can give you some appropriate guidance.

Haaretz article "New high-tech initiative in Israel seeks to combine
business with Zionism"
http://english.themarker.com/new-high-tech-initiative-in-israel-seeks-to-combine-business-with-zionism-1.372397

Tom Balazs
Haifa
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