Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Dave Stav]

What we if write free text books and after publishing them, offer a 
match-to-your-need service?

 - Dave

On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 09:47:15AM +0300, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:40:58 +0300
>> From: Dov Grobgeld 
>> To: Jonathan Ben Avraham 
>> Cc: ILUG 
>> Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)
>>
>> That argument is like the arguments against writing free software because it
>> will put the software vendors out of business. It is clear that the interest
>
> No, it's a very different argument. The correct analogy here is music. 
> The content market is not the same as the sotware market. There is a free 
> software market, but there is no free content market. And the main reason 
> is that there is a revenue model for free software, but no revenue model  
> for free content.
>
>  - yba
>
>
>> of the consumer is to have the information available for free, and if
>> someone wants to volunteer their time to provide this information for free,
>> then all the more respect to them. Of course this will make the publishers
>> unhappy, and they'll have to compete harder to have someone pay for their
>> work.
>>
>> But this is all hypothetical as I have yet to hear about any such project.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dov
>>
>> 2009/9/8 Jonathan Ben Avraham 
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> Don't forget that there is a large industry of authors and publishers who
>>> make their living on the current paper book model. Like music, this is a
>>> content market whose reason for existence is payment for content.
>>>
>>> I think that a better idea for a free education project in this direction
>>> would be an online publishing house the would sell kindle style versions of
>>> the current content offering.
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>  - yba
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 7 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
>>>
>>>  Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 21:22:37 +0300
 From: Dov Grobgeld 
 To: Dotan Cohen 
 Cc: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
 Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)


 This reminds me of a "public service" project that I have thought about
 for
 some time. It would be nice if someone created some free (as in license)
 books that would pass the requirements of the education ministry. These
 could then be downloaded as e-books or printed, copied partially,
 photocopied, translated, modified, read in audioform, etc, which would be
 a
 great service to the all kids and parents.

 Just my 2 ag,
 Dov

 On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 14:06, Dotan Cohen  wrote:

  Is there a place to buy electronic versions of textbooks for (israeli)
>> school children?
>> The schools don't have places for kids to keep their books on premises,
>>
> so
>
>> they have to schlep all their books all day long. They are heavy.  I'd
>> rather they carried a small laptop or e-book reader.
>> Any ideas?
>>
>>
> You are ahead of your time. What grade are the kids in? You should
> know that the books are likely used for more than reading, for
> instance they may have to write in the book.
>
> You should also know that Education Ministry limits the sacks on one's
> back to 10% of their body weight. If your kid's books and a reasonable
> pack exceed this, complain to the school management. Keep us informed.
>
>
> --
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://what-is-what.com
> http://gibberish.co.il
>
> ___
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>

>>> --
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>>> Systems
>>> =}ooO--U--Ooo{=
>>> - y...@tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
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>>> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
>>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> -- 
>  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~   Tk Open Systems
> =}ooO--U--Ooo{=
>  - y...@tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
>
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> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il

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 =}---ooO--U--Ooo-{=
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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Meir Kriheli]

On 09/08/2009 09:47 AM, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
> 
>> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:40:58 +0300
>> From: Dov Grobgeld 
>> To: Jonathan Ben Avraham 
>> Cc: ILUG 
>> Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)
>>
>> That argument is like the arguments against writing free software
>> because it
>> will put the software vendors out of business. It is clear that the
>> interest
> 
> No, it's a very different argument. The correct analogy here is music.
> The content market is not the same as the sotware market. There is a
> free software market, but there is no free content market. And the main
> reason is that there is a revenue model for free software, but no
> revenue model for free content.
> 
>  - yba
> 

Much like the services industry around FLOSS a musician can perform live
concerts, merchandising etc.

There are people looking for different business model in music as well
utilizing various CC licenses, see for example:

http://www.jamendo.com/en/

Cheers
--
Meir Kriheli

> 
>> of the consumer is to have the information available for free, and if
>> someone wants to volunteer their time to provide this information for
>> free,
>> then all the more respect to them. Of course this will make the
>> publishers
>> unhappy, and they'll have to compete harder to have someone pay for their
>> work.
>>
>> But this is all hypothetical as I have yet to hear about any such
>> project.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dov
>>
>> 2009/9/8 Jonathan Ben Avraham 
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> Don't forget that there is a large industry of authors and publishers
>>> who
>>> make their living on the current paper book model. Like music, this is a
>>> content market whose reason for existence is payment for content.
>>>
>>> I think that a better idea for a free education project in this
>>> direction
>>> would be an online publishing house the would sell kindle style
>>> versions of
>>> the current content offering.
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>  - yba
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 7 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
>>>
>>>  Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 21:22:37 +0300
 From: Dov Grobgeld 
 To: Dotan Cohen 
 Cc: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
 Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)


 This reminds me of a "public service" project that I have thought about
 for
 some time. It would be nice if someone created some free (as in
 license)
 books that would pass the requirements of the education ministry. These
 could then be downloaded as e-books or printed, copied partially,
 photocopied, translated, modified, read in audioform, etc, which
 would be
 a
 great service to the all kids and parents.

 Just my 2 ag,
 Dov

 On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 14:06, Dotan Cohen  wrote:

  Is there a place to buy electronic versions of textbooks for (israeli)
>> school children?
>> The schools don't have places for kids to keep their books on
>> premises,
>>
> so
>
>> they have to schlep all their books all day long. They are heavy. 
>> I'd
>> rather they carried a small laptop or e-book reader.
>> Any ideas?
>>
>>
> You are ahead of your time. What grade are the kids in? You should
> know that the books are likely used for more than reading, for
> instance they may have to write in the book.
>
> You should also know that Education Ministry limits the sacks on one's
> back to 10% of their body weight. If your kid's books and a reasonable
> pack exceed this, complain to the school management. Keep us informed.
>
>
> -- 
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://what-is-what.com
> http://gibberish.co.il
>
> ___
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>

>>> -- 
>>>  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~   Tk Open
>>> Systems
>>> =}ooO--U--Ooo{=
>>>
>>> - y...@tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
>>> ___
>>> Linux-il mailing list
>>> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
>>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>>
>>>
>>
> 


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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Jonathan Ben Avraham]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Meir Kriheli wrote:

[snip]

Much like the services industry around FLOSS a musician can perform live
concerts, merchandising etc.

There are people looking for different business model in music as well
utilizing various CC licenses, see for example:

http://www.jamendo.com/en/


These are guerilla movements, not mainstream like free software. The 
reality is that there is no free content market anywhere approaching 
the free software market, and the reasons are clear.


 - yba




Cheers
--
Meir Kriheli




of the consumer is to have the information available for free, and if
someone wants to volunteer their time to provide this information for
free,
then all the more respect to them. Of course this will make the
publishers
unhappy, and they'll have to compete harder to have someone pay for their
work.

But this is all hypothetical as I have yet to hear about any such
project.

Regards,
Dov

2009/9/8 Jonathan Ben Avraham 


Hi All,
Don't forget that there is a large industry of authors and publishers
who
make their living on the current paper book model. Like music, this is a
content market whose reason for existence is payment for content.

I think that a better idea for a free education project in this
direction
would be an online publishing house the would sell kindle style
versions of
the current content offering.
Regards,

 - yba


On Mon, 7 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:

 Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 21:22:37 +0300

From: Dov Grobgeld 
To: Dotan Cohen 
Cc: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)


This reminds me of a "public service" project that I have thought about
for
some time. It would be nice if someone created some free (as in
license)
books that would pass the requirements of the education ministry. These
could then be downloaded as e-books or printed, copied partially,
photocopied, translated, modified, read in audioform, etc, which
would be
a
great service to the all kids and parents.

Just my 2 ag,
Dov

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 14:06, Dotan Cohen  wrote:

 Is there a place to buy electronic versions of textbooks for (israeli)

school children?
The schools don't have places for kids to keep their books on
premises,


so


they have to schlep all their books all day long. They are heavy.
I'd
rather they carried a small laptop or e-book reader.
Any ideas?



You are ahead of your time. What grade are the kids in? You should
know that the books are likely used for more than reading, for
instance they may have to write in the book.

You should also know that Education Ministry limits the sacks on one's
back to 10% of their body weight. If your kid's books and a reasonable
pack exceed this, complain to the school management. Keep us informed.


--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Ely Levy]

1. Matach already started uploading books
2. Books the schools use need to be approved
3. They sell those books like amazon does so they still earn quite a bit
money
4. There was never a michraz of who can provide the books in cheaper price,
so you actually have a
lot of parents who must buy those specific books with no one watching how
much they cost.
That can get to 300+ nis per year per child.

Ely

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Dave Stav  wrote:

>
> What we if write free text books and after publishing them, offer a
> match-to-your-need service?
>
>  - Dave
>
> On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 09:47:15AM +0300, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
> > On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:40:58 +0300
> >> From: Dov Grobgeld 
> >> To: Jonathan Ben Avraham 
> >> Cc: ILUG 
> >> Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)
> >>
> >> That argument is like the arguments against writing free software
> because it
> >> will put the software vendors out of business. It is clear that the
> interest
> >
> > No, it's a very different argument. The correct analogy here is music.
> > The content market is not the same as the sotware market. There is a free
> > software market, but there is no free content market. And the main reason
> > is that there is a revenue model for free software, but no revenue model
> > for free content.
> >
> >  - yba
> >
> >
> >> of the consumer is to have the information available for free, and if
> >> someone wants to volunteer their time to provide this information for
> free,
> >> then all the more respect to them. Of course this will make the
> publishers
> >> unhappy, and they'll have to compete harder to have someone pay for
> their
> >> work.
> >>
> >> But this is all hypothetical as I have yet to hear about any such
> project.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Dov
> >>
> >> 2009/9/8 Jonathan Ben Avraham 
> >>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>> Don't forget that there is a large industry of authors and publishers
> who
> >>> make their living on the current paper book model. Like music, this is
> a
> >>> content market whose reason for existence is payment for content.
> >>>
> >>> I think that a better idea for a free education project in this
> direction
> >>> would be an online publishing house the would sell kindle style
> versions of
> >>> the current content offering.
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>>  - yba
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, 7 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 21:22:37 +0300
>  From: Dov Grobgeld 
>  To: Dotan Cohen 
>  Cc: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
>  Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)
> 
> 
>  This reminds me of a "public service" project that I have thought
> about
>  for
>  some time. It would be nice if someone created some free (as in
> license)
>  books that would pass the requirements of the education ministry.
> These
>  could then be downloaded as e-books or printed, copied partially,
>  photocopied, translated, modified, read in audioform, etc, which would
> be
>  a
>  great service to the all kids and parents.
> 
>  Just my 2 ag,
>  Dov
> 
>  On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 14:06, Dotan Cohen 
> wrote:
> 
>   Is there a place to buy electronic versions of textbooks for
> (israeli)
> >> school children?
> >> The schools don't have places for kids to keep their books on
> premises,
> >>
> > so
> >
> >> they have to schlep all their books all day long. They are heavy.
>  I'd
> >> rather they carried a small laptop or e-book reader.
> >> Any ideas?
> >>
> >>
> > You are ahead of your time. What grade are the kids in? You should
> > know that the books are likely used for more than reading, for
> > instance they may have to write in the book.
> >
> > You should also know that Education Ministry limits the sacks on
> one's
> > back to 10% of their body weight. If your kid's books and a
> reasonable
> > pack exceed this, complain to the school management. Keep us
> informed.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dotan Cohen
> >
> > http://what-is-what.com
> > http://gibberish.co.il
> >
> > ___
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >
> >
> 
> >>> --
> >>>  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~   Tk Open
> >>> Systems
> >>>
> =}ooO--U--Ooo{=
> >>> - y...@tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
> >>> ___
> >>> Linux-il mailing list
> >>> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
> >>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > --
> >  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~   Tk Open
> Systems
> >
> =}ooO--U--Ooo{=
> >  

Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Meir Kriheli]

On 09/08/2009 10:29 AM, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Meir Kriheli wrote:
> 
> [snip]
>> Much like the services industry around FLOSS a musician can perform live
>> concerts, merchandising etc.
>>
>> There are people looking for different business model in music as well
>> utilizing various CC licenses, see for example:
>>
>> http://www.jamendo.com/en/
> 
> These are guerilla movements, not mainstream like free software. The
> reality is that there is no free content market anywhere approaching the
> free software market, and the reasons are clear.
> 
>  - yba
> 
> 

Just like FLOSS, everybody has to start somewhere. For sure it's bigger
compared to couple of years ago, and keeps growing.

That's just an example, you can find more, e.g:
http://freemusicarchive.org/

Cheers
--
Meir Kriheli

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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Justin]

The problem isn't the writers making money, it's the publishers.
A text book, even in a "small" market like Israel will go out to tens of
thousands of children a year.  An author could make a lucrative living just
by selling the eText for a few shekels, certainly much less than is payed
now for the print editions.

The publishers put pressure to keep the industry to keep it locked up in a
medium that requires their services. In this way it is analogous to the
news, music and movie industries.  These industries have long worked hard to
cut the cost of production, for their own benefit. The change comes with the
rise of a  new distribution model that doesn't necessitate their core
service: publishing & promotions.

I have no love or hate for book publishers.  But if they are superseded by
something that improves quality, increases choice, and allows lesser knowns
to enter the market then good riddance to them.



On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Meir Kriheli wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Much like the services industry around FLOSS a musician can perform live
>> concerts, merchandising etc.
>>
>> There are people looking for different business model in music as well
>> utilizing various CC licenses, see for example:
>>
>> http://www.jamendo.com/en/
>>
>
> These are guerilla movements, not mainstream like free software. The
> reality is that there is no free content market anywhere approaching the
> free software market, and the reasons are clear.
>
>  - yba
>
>
>
>
>> Cheers
>> --
>> Meir Kriheli
>>
>>
>>>  of the consumer is to have the information available for free, and if
 someone wants to volunteer their time to provide this information for
 free,
 then all the more respect to them. Of course this will make the
 publishers
 unhappy, and they'll have to compete harder to have someone pay for
 their
 work.

 But this is all hypothetical as I have yet to hear about any such
 project.

 Regards,
 Dov

 2009/9/8 Jonathan Ben Avraham 

  Hi All,
> Don't forget that there is a large industry of authors and publishers
> who
> make their living on the current paper book model. Like music, this is
> a
> content market whose reason for existence is payment for content.
>
> I think that a better idea for a free education project in this
> direction
> would be an online publishing house the would sell kindle style
> versions of
> the current content offering.
> Regards,
>
>  - yba
>
>
> On Mon, 7 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
>
>  Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 21:22:37 +0300
>
>> From: Dov Grobgeld 
>> To: Dotan Cohen 
>> Cc: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
>> Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)
>>
>>
>> This reminds me of a "public service" project that I have thought
>> about
>> for
>> some time. It would be nice if someone created some free (as in
>> license)
>> books that would pass the requirements of the education ministry.
>> These
>> could then be downloaded as e-books or printed, copied partially,
>> photocopied, translated, modified, read in audioform, etc, which
>> would be
>> a
>> great service to the all kids and parents.
>>
>> Just my 2 ag,
>> Dov
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 14:06, Dotan Cohen 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Is there a place to buy electronic versions of textbooks for
>> (israeli)
>>
>>> school children?
 The schools don't have places for kids to keep their books on
 premises,

  so
>>>
>>>  they have to schlep all their books all day long. They are heavy.
 I'd
 rather they carried a small laptop or e-book reader.
 Any ideas?


  You are ahead of your time. What grade are the kids in? You should
>>> know that the books are likely used for more than reading, for
>>> instance they may have to write in the book.
>>>
>>> You should also know that Education Ministry limits the sacks on
>>> one's
>>> back to 10% of their body weight. If your kid's books and a
>>> reasonable
>>> pack exceed this, complain to the school management. Keep us
>>> informed.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dotan Cohen
>>>
>>> http://what-is-what.com
>>> http://gibberish.co.il
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Linux-il mailing list
>>> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
>>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>  --
>  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~   Tk Open
> Systems
>
> =}ooO--U--Ooo{=
>
>- y...@tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
> ___
> 

FW: Linux job offering

[emil h]

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· Minimum 4 years experience as a software engineer.
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· Linux internals knowledge is mandatory 
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place : Herzliah 



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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Danny Lieberman]

Yonatan, Dov,  et al

1. I think an argument against competitive alternatives on the basis of an
incumbent industry's economic interest is, to say the leastweak.

The Israeli textbook industry is a racket.  This thread would not be
happening if our children would be learning from standard paper textbooks.
Virtually all of the K12 educational content from math to science to
language was invented over 100 years ago - which means that there is no
functional justification to recreate the content in different forms
(workbooks, experimental programs etc...) every year and throw out the
content just to generate more revenue for the folks who feed off the
Ministry of Education pork barrels.

Israel can save billions by using and recycling standard paper textbooks.
I'm  talking about impact on family budget, if you factor in impact on the
environment of throwing out 5-10 million workbooks every year-  then it
looks really bad.  After we standardize, then we can talk about  a OKLP
project (One Kindle per Little Person) project.

2. To set the record straight: there are free digital content (i.e. music
and video) business models.  All of the artists on MySpace music, Garageband
and now the big studios provide free content as a way of promoting live
performances, movie tickets and paid-for content - whether in a VOD
subscription model, pay per track or pay per view.

3. The Israeli Ministry of Education is teaching technology in the classroom
instead of using technology to teach. The worst example I can think of is
(and I kid you not) a program in first grade to teach children how to use
Microsoft Windows Paint.




Danny



On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Jonathan Ben Avraham  wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
>
>  Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:40:58 +0300
>> From: Dov Grobgeld 
>> To: Jonathan Ben Avraham 
>> Cc: ILUG 
>> Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)
>>
>> That argument is like the arguments against writing free software because
>> it
>> will put the software vendors out of business. It is clear that the
>> interest
>>
>
> No, it's a very different argument. The correct analogy here is music. The
> content market is not the same as the sotware market. There is a free
> software market, but there is no free content market. And the main reason is
> that there is a revenue model for free software, but no revenue model for
> free content.
>
>  - yba
>
>
>
>  of the consumer is to have the information available for free, and if
>> someone wants to volunteer their time to provide this information for
>> free,
>> then all the more respect to them. Of course this will make the publishers
>> unhappy, and they'll have to compete harder to have someone pay for their
>> work.
>>
>> But this is all hypothetical as I have yet to hear about any such project.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dov
>>
>> 2009/9/8 Jonathan Ben Avraham 
>>
>>  Hi All,
>>> Don't forget that there is a large industry of authors and publishers who
>>> make their living on the current paper book model. Like music, this is a
>>> content market whose reason for existence is payment for content.
>>>
>>> I think that a better idea for a free education project in this direction
>>> would be an online publishing house the would sell kindle style versions
>>> of
>>> the current content offering.
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>  - yba
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 7 Sep 2009, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
>>>
>>>  Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 21:22:37 +0300
>>>
 From: Dov Grobgeld 
 To: Dotan Cohen 
 Cc: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
 Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)


 This reminds me of a "public service" project that I have thought about
 for
 some time. It would be nice if someone created some free (as in license)
 books that would pass the requirements of the education ministry. These
 could then be downloaded as e-books or printed, copied partially,
 photocopied, translated, modified, read in audioform, etc, which would
 be
 a
 great service to the all kids and parents.

 Just my 2 ag,
 Dov

 On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 14:06, Dotan Cohen  wrote:

  Is there a place to buy electronic versions of textbooks for (israeli)

> school children?
>> The schools don't have places for kids to keep their books on
>> premises,
>>
>>  so
>
>  they have to schlep all their books all day long. They are heavy.  I'd
>> rather they carried a small laptop or e-book reader.
>> Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>  You are ahead of your time. What grade are the kids in? You should
> know that the books are likely used for more than reading, for
> instance they may have to write in the book.
>
> You should also know that Education Ministry limits the sacks on one's
> back to 10% of their body weight. If your kid's books and a reasonable
> pack exceed this, complain to the school management. Keep us informed.
>
>
> --
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://what

Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Arie Skliarouk]

Hi,

In socialistic USSR, school books were not bought each year. Instead pupils
had to take them from their's school library for the coming year and return
them at end of the year. Each book had "worn out" level marked on cover of
the book and one had to be careful not to wore out the book too much during
the year. As a penalty for lost or unusable book, the student had to buy a
new book for the library. To draw or mark text in the book was a big no-no.
All books had hard-cover and had strong binding for durability. Every
student was required to put the book he got into special plastic boundary.
If a course required pupils to draw on printed material (like letters in the
first form), the pupil had to buy addendum personal notebook he had to draw
in. I remember I used books with 15-20 name-year pairs in it.

Needless to say, all books were written by a department in the Ministry of
Education, and not private author benefited from the authorship.

After all there were some good economy tactics in the socialism that IMHO
should be applied to capitalism (albeit forcefully)...

--
Arie
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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Jonathan Ben Avraham]

Hi Arieh,
I have edited your post below slightly to exactly match the Seattle public 
school system in the 60's of last century. Except for the text in brackets 
([]) the rest is identical.


 - yba


On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Arie Skliarouk wrote:


Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 13:58:14 +0300
From: Arie Skliarouk 
To: ILUG 
Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

Hi,

In [socialistic USSR] capitalist Seattle public school system 1961, 
school books were not bought each year. Instead pupils

had to take them from their's school library for the coming year and return
them at end of the year. Each book had "worn out" level marked on cover of
the book and one had to be careful not to wore out the book too much during
the year. As a penalty for lost or unusable book, the student had to buy a
new book for the library. To draw or mark text in the book was a big no-no.
All books had hard-cover and had strong binding for durability. Every
student was required to put the book he got into special plastic boundary.
If a course required pupils to draw on printed material (like letters in the
first form), the pupil had to buy addendum personal notebook he had to draw
in. I remember I used books with 15-20 name-year pairs in it.

Needless to say, all books were [written] approved by a department in 
the Ministry of Education, and [not] private author benefited from the 
authorship.


After all there were some good economy tactics in the [socialism] 
capitalism that IMHO should be applied to capitalism [Israeli 
socialism] (albeit forcefully)...


--
[Arie] yba



--
 EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}ooO--U--Ooo{=
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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Yotam Rubin]

In Soviet Russia, book reads YOU.

2009/9/8 Arie Skliarouk 

> Hi,
>
> In socialistic USSR, school books were not bought each year. Instead pupils
> had to take them from their's school library for the coming year and return
> them at end of the year. Each book had "worn out" level marked on cover of
> the book and one had to be careful not to wore out the book too much during
> the year. As a penalty for lost or unusable book, the student had to buy a
> new book for the library. To draw or mark text in the book was a big no-no.
> All books had hard-cover and had strong binding for durability. Every
> student was required to put the book he got into special plastic boundary.
> If a course required pupils to draw on printed material (like letters in the
> first form), the pupil had to buy addendum personal notebook he had to draw
> in. I remember I used books with 15-20 name-year pairs in it.
>
> Needless to say, all books were written by a department in the Ministry of
> Education, and not private author benefited from the authorship.
>
> After all there were some good economy tactics in the socialism that IMHO
> should be applied to capitalism (albeit forcefully)...
>
> --
> Arie
>
>
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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Ely Levy]

I think it was like that also in the pre 67 Israel.

Ely

2009/9/8 Jonathan Ben Avraham 

> Hi Arieh,
> I have edited your post below slightly to exactly match the Seattle public
> school system in the 60's of last century. Except for the text in brackets
> ([]) the rest is identical.
>
>  - yba
>
>
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Arie Skliarouk wrote:
>
>  Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 13:58:14 +0300
>> From: Arie Skliarouk 
>> To: ILUG 
>> Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> In [socialistic USSR] capitalist Seattle public school system 1961, school
>> books were not bought each year. Instead pupils
>> had to take them from their's school library for the coming year and
>> return
>> them at end of the year. Each book had "worn out" level marked on cover of
>> the book and one had to be careful not to wore out the book too much
>> during
>> the year. As a penalty for lost or unusable book, the student had to buy a
>> new book for the library. To draw or mark text in the book was a big
>> no-no.
>> All books had hard-cover and had strong binding for durability. Every
>> student was required to put the book he got into special plastic boundary.
>> If a course required pupils to draw on printed material (like letters in
>> the
>> first form), the pupil had to buy addendum personal notebook he had to
>> draw
>> in. I remember I used books with 15-20 name-year pairs in it.
>>
>> Needless to say, all books were [written] approved by a department in the
>> Ministry of Education, and [not] private author benefited from the
>> authorship.
>>
>> After all there were some good economy tactics in the [socialism]
>> capitalism that IMHO should be applied to capitalism [Israeli socialism]
>> (albeit forcefully)...
>>
>> --
>> [Arie] yba
>>
>>
> --
>  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~   Tk Open
> Systems
> =}ooO--U--Ooo{=
> - y...@tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
>
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Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Hi,

I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their installation
is.

One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old server.

One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686

What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works fast
once its running - of perl scripts

Even the smallest perl script such as this:
===
#!/usr/bin/perl

use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';

use DB;

===

Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods

If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package

It loads fast

I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec

I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't see
something "big" that is causing the delay.

The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
takes negligible time

Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?

Thanks,
Noam Rathaus
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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Justin]

When I left high-school in the capitalist USA in 1994 this was also the
process.  I can only assume it still is.
It's just sensible not to throw out all the books every year.  It's not
really tied to any political ideology.

2009/9/8 Arie Skliarouk 

> Hi,
>
> In socialistic USSR, school books were not bought each year. Instead pupils
> had to take them from their's school library for the coming year and return
> them at end of the year. Each book had "worn out" level marked on cover of
> the book and one had to be careful not to wore out the book too much during
> the year. As a penalty for lost or unusable book, the student had to buy a
> new book for the library. To draw or mark text in the book was a big no-no.
> All books had hard-cover and had strong binding for durability. Every
> student was required to put the book he got into special plastic boundary.
> If a course required pupils to draw on printed material (like letters in the
> first form), the pupil had to buy addendum personal notebook he had to draw
> in. I remember I used books with 15-20 name-year pairs in it.
>
> Needless to say, all books were written by a department in the Ministry of
> Education, and not private author benefited from the authorship.
>
> After all there were some good economy tactics in the socialism that IMHO
> should be applied to capitalism (albeit forcefully)...
>
> --
> Arie
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 
There must be a beginning of any great matter, but the continuing unto the
end until it be thoroughly finished yields the true glory. -- Sir Francis
Drake
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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Danny Lieberman]

Arie

In capitalistic US where I grew up - we had EXACTLY the same method.

There are benefits to be learned from our neighbors from West and East.

danny
http://danny-lieberman.blogspot.com/index.html

2009/9/8 Arie Skliarouk 

> Hi,
>
> In socialistic USSR, school books were not bought each year. Instead pupils
> had to take them from their's school library for the coming year and return
> them at end of the year. Each book had "worn out" level marked on cover of
> the book and one had to be careful not to wore out the book too much during
> the year. As a penalty for lost or unusable book, the student had to buy a
> new book for the library. To draw or mark text in the book was a big no-no.
> All books had hard-cover and had strong binding for durability. Every
> student was required to put the book he got into special plastic boundary.
> If a course required pupils to draw on printed material (like letters in the
> first form), the pupil had to buy addendum personal notebook he had to draw
> in. I remember I used books with 15-20 name-year pairs in it.
>
> Needless to say, all books were written by a department in the Ministry of
> Education, and not private author benefited from the authorship.
>
> After all there were some good economy tactics in the socialism that IMHO
> should be applied to capitalism (albeit forcefully)...
>
> --
> Arie
>
>
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>
>


-- 
Danny Lieberman
-
http://www.dannylieberman.info
Twitter:  http://twitter.com/onlyjazz
Skype:  dannyl50
Warsaw:+48-79-609-5964
Israel:   +972 8 9701485
Mobile: +972 - 54 447 1114
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Re: Perl slowness

[Gabor Szabo]

2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus :
> Hi,
>
> I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their installation
> is.
>
> One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old server.
>
> One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
>
> What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works fast
> once its running - of perl scripts
>
> Even the smallest perl script such as this:
> ===
> #!/usr/bin/perl
>
> use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';
>
> use DB;
>
> ===
>
> Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods
>
> If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package
>
> It loads fast
>
> I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
> newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec
>
> I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't see
> something "big" that is causing the delay.
>
> The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
> wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
> takes negligible time
>
> Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?
>


A wide guess is that it is searching the @INC and on one system
@INC points to a slow disk maybe via NFS ?

Gabor

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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Hi Noam,

Yes I looked with strace.

The most notable difference is the read time on files (new HD)
0.047210 read(7, " <= 0)\n {\n  $numLimit = 10;\n }\n\n "..., 4096)

Instead of (old HW)
0.001462 read(6, "owItem = $1;\n\n my $RowItems = $s"..., 4096) = 4096

That is 40 times slower (it is the same file being opened)

I have no idea why there is such a difference

hdparm on the old:
hdparm -t /dev/sda

/dev/sda:
 Timing buffered disk reads:  190 MB in  3.02 seconds =  62.87 MB/sec

hdparm on the new:
# hdparm -t /dev/sda

/dev/sda:
 Timing buffered disk reads:  314 MB in  3.01 seconds = 104.22 MB/sec

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Noam Meltzer  wrote:

> Did you try to check with strace ?
>
> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
>> installation is.
>>
>> One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old server.
>>
>> One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
>>
>> What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
>> fast once its running - of perl scripts
>>
>> Even the smallest perl script such as this:
>> ===
>> #!/usr/bin/perl
>>
>> use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';
>>
>> use DB;
>>
>> ===
>>
>> Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods
>>
>> If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package
>>
>> It loads fast
>>
>> I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
>> newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec
>>
>> I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
>> see something "big" that is causing the delay.
>>
>> The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
>> wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
>> takes negligible time
>>
>> Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Noam Rathaus
>>
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>>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Everything is on the /dev/sda

And local

That is not the answer...

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Gabor Szabo  wrote:

> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus :
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
> installation
> > is.
> >
> > One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old server.
> >
> > One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
> >
> > What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
> fast
> > once its running - of perl scripts
> >
> > Even the smallest perl script such as this:
> > ===
> > #!/usr/bin/perl
> >
> > use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';
> >
> > use DB;
> >
> > ===
> >
> > Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods
> >
> > If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package
> >
> > It loads fast
> >
> > I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
> > newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec
> >
> > I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
> see
> > something "big" that is causing the delay.
> >
> > The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
> > wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
> > takes negligible time
> >
> > Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?
> >
>
>
> A wide guess is that it is searching the @INC and on one system
> @INC points to a slow disk maybe via NFS ?
>
> Gabor
>
>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Arie Skliarouk]

Try to measure disk seek time on both disks:

 time echo $(dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null count=1 bs=512; dd if=/dev/sda
of=/dev/null count=1 bs=1 skip=200049647116;)

Replace the last number with size of the disk - several bytes (check using
fdisk -l).
The operation would give meaningful result only the first time you run it.

If someone has better way to check disk seek speed, please share.

Are you running the script as root?
Do you get the same slow results each time you run it or only the first
time?
Is there disk thrashing during startup?

--
Arie



2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 

> Everything is on the /dev/sda
>
> And local
>
> That is not the answer...
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Gabor Szabo  wrote:
>
>> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus :
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
>> installation
>> > is.
>> >
>> > One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old
>> server.
>> >
>> > One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
>> >
>> > What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
>> fast
>> > once its running - of perl scripts
>> >
>> > Even the smallest perl script such as this:
>> > ===
>> > #!/usr/bin/perl
>> >
>> > use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';
>> >
>> > use DB;
>> >
>> > ===
>> >
>> > Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods
>> >
>> > If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package
>> >
>> > It loads fast
>> >
>> > I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
>> > newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec
>> >
>> > I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
>> see
>> > something "big" that is causing the delay.
>> >
>> > The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
>> > wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
>> > takes negligible time
>> >
>> > Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?
>> >
>>
>>
>> A wide guess is that it is searching the @INC and on one system
>> @INC points to a slow disk maybe via NFS ?
>>
>> Gabor
>>
>>
>
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Re: FW: Linux job offering

[Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh]

emil h wrote:
>
> Experienced Linux C++ networking programmer
>  
> Required Skills:
> · Minimum 4 years experience as a software engineer.
> · Minimum 2 years C++ programming experience
> · Linux internals knowledge is mandatory
> · Development & object-oriented design on Linux OS.
> · Knowledge of server-client interaction.
> · BS Computer science degree preferred
>  
> place : Herzliah
>
And where are the replies supposed to be sent to?

-- 
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http://www.total-knowledge.com


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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Hi Noam,

1) Both machines have 2GB of memory and are using 200Mb of it..

I think the problem is not memory

2) no weird errors, of any kind in the dmesg or /var/log

The newer machine is very new :) I wrote 1 year, it is actually 3 months, I
don't think its a hardware malfunction, but I could be wrong

3) What is iostat / sar ? how would you measure those values? I thought
hdparm was accurate, I guess it isn't

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Noam Meltzer  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would try to focus on the I/O issue. (best guess I have so far)
> Some things I would check:
> 1. file system cache. mayeb the file is already in cache? maybe all memory
> is allocated and no free ram for cache? etc.
> 2. dmesg and/or /var/log/messages -> check if there are weird I/O errors.
> (same for raid controller if any)
> 3. iostat / sar. check the disk performance. see the numbers, especially
> throughput, service time & average wait looks reasonable.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Noam Rathaus wrote:
>
>> Hi Noam,
>>
>> Yes I looked with strace.
>>
>> The most notable difference is the read time on files (new HD)
>> 0.047210 read(7, " <= 0)\n {\n  $numLimit = 10;\n }\n\n "..., 4096)
>>
>> Instead of (old HW)
>> 0.001462 read(6, "owItem = $1;\n\n my $RowItems = $s"..., 4096) = 4096
>>
>> That is 40 times slower (it is the same file being opened)
>>
>> I have no idea why there is such a difference
>>
>> hdparm on the old:
>> hdparm -t /dev/sda
>>
>> /dev/sda:
>>  Timing buffered disk reads:  190 MB in  3.02 seconds =  62.87 MB/sec
>>
>> hdparm on the new:
>> # hdparm -t /dev/sda
>>
>> /dev/sda:
>>  Timing buffered disk reads:  314 MB in  3.01 seconds = 104.22 MB/sec
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Noam Meltzer  wrote:
>>
>>> Did you try to check with strace ?
>>>
>>> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 
>>>
 Hi,

 I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
 installation is.

 One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old
 server.

 One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686

 What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
 fast once its running - of perl scripts

 Even the smallest perl script such as this:
 ===
 #!/usr/bin/perl

 use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';

 use DB;

 ===

 Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods

 If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package

 It loads fast

 I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
 newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec

 I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
 see something "big" that is causing the delay.

 The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
 wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
 takes negligible time

 Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?

 Thanks,
 Noam Rathaus

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>>>
>>
>
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Re: [Haifux] Me Volunteering to Give a Presentation

[Shlomi Fish]

On Monday 07 September 2009 08:42:22 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > It seems most people so far prefer CMake. However, the reason I'm giving
> > it is because Constantine here (CCed to this message) volunteered to
> > prepare it together with me, and then to give it to Telux. So thank
> > Constantine for standing up as our victim^W volunteer.
> 
> I would be interested in cmake from a user's point of view, not from a
> developer's point of view. That means that in the instances where I am
> forced to compile software, what options are available such as install
> directories, processor options, etc.

Well, this is mostly covered by the CMake man page, the online cmake help, and 
the cmake-gui program, and it's not particularly interesting unless something 
breaks. I suppose I can write a blog post about it.

> 
> Remember, LUG is Linux _User_ Group, so I think that the lectures
> should focus on the users.
> 

Well, a LUG is indeed a Linux Users' Group, but many Linux users are also 
developers. In UNIX and FOSS, the distinction between users and developers is 
somewhat blurred, because people can download the source (or in the case of 
languages that are not compiled to binaries, even look at it and debug it 
directly), modify it and send back changes to the core devs. Furthermore, I'm 
not really a developer of CMake itself - I just use it to develop build 
systems. So while I'm a developer of various programs that use CMake for its 
configuration and build system, I'm only a CMake user.

Well, I guess we can go on in this vain. In any case, many LUGs I've ran into 
have presentations intended for developers. But if someone wants to give a 
presentation about how to use Firefox, OpenOffice.org, VirtualBox, FileZilla, 
or some other program, he'll be more than welcome.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

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Re: Perl slowness

[Shachar Shemesh]

Noam Rathaus wrote:
I know the time difference doesn't look too bad, but take a bigger 
code set:


Fast:
real0m1.682s
user0m1.584s
sys0m0.064s

Slow:
real0m16.730s
user0m9.345s
sys0m0.096s

These times spell "CPU intensive". Does your library do anything 
special? If you try to import a dummy library, does this still happen?


Shachar

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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Meltzer]

the time output does looks like you have higher cpu usage for some reason,
so i agree with Shachar on this.

you can also try to pinpoint the place the cpu is spent.
strace and/or ltrace with the '-f -c' flags can help.



On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Shachar Shemesh  wrote:

>  Noam Rathaus wrote:
>
> I know the time difference doesn't look too bad, but take a bigger code
> set:
>
> Fast:
> real0m1.682s
> user0m1.584s
> sys0m0.064s
>
> Slow:
> real0m16.730s
> user0m9.345s
> sys0m0.096s
>
>  These times spell "CPU intensive". Does your library do anything special?
> If you try to import a dummy library, does this still happen?
>
> Shachar
>
> --
> Shachar Shemesh
> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>
>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Shachar Shemesh]

Noam Meltzer wrote:
the time output does looks like you have higher cpu usage for some 
reason, so i agree with Shachar on this.


you can also try to pinpoint the place the cpu is spent.
strace and/or ltrace with the '-f -c' flags can help.
I'm not sure about ltrace, but strace will not help. Most of the time is 
spent in user space, not in the kernel.


Strace may help if the problem is time spent in another process (i.e. - 
while the main process is sleeping), but it seems Noam has already tried 
that one and failed to spot any obvious candidates.


Shachar




On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Shachar Shemesh > wrote:


Noam Rathaus wrote:

I know the time difference doesn't look too bad, but take a
bigger code set:

Fast:
real0m1.682s
user0m1.584s
sys0m0.064s

Slow:
real0m16.730s
user0m9.345s
sys0m0.096s


These times spell "CPU intensive". Does your library do anything
special? If you try to import a dummy library, does this still
happen?


Shachar

-- 
Shachar Shemesh

Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com







--
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Hi,

Here you go...

--- old2009-09-08 17:47:41.0 +0300
+++ new2009-09-08 17:47:31.0 +0300
@@ -1,38 +1,45 @@
-tune2fs 1.40-WIP (14-Nov-2006)
-Filesystem volume name:   /
+tune2fs 1.41.3 (12-Oct-2008)
+Filesystem volume name:   
 Last mounted on:  
-Filesystem UUID:  5a1d4aa2-a4e8-48a5-b80d-03dbcebb2a4c
+Filesystem UUID:  466838ce-735c-4523-9941-ecab400e22c4
 Filesystem magic number:  0xEF53
 Filesystem revision #:1 (dynamic)
-Filesystem features:  has_journal filetype needs_recovery sparse_super
-Filesystem flags: signed directory hash
+Filesystem features:  has_journal ext_attr resize_inode dir_index
filetype needs_recovery sparse_super large_file
+Filesystem flags: signed_directory_hash
 Default mount options:(none)
 Filesystem state: clean
 Errors behavior:  Continue
 Filesystem OS type:   Linux
-Inode count:  9584640
-Block count:  19153488
-Reserved block count: 957674
-Free blocks:  16844413
-Free inodes:  9328387
+Inode count:  9601024
+Block count:  38399358
+Reserved block count: 1919967
+Free blocks:  37358729
+Free inodes:  9551984
 First block:  0
 Block size:   4096
 Fragment size:4096
+Reserved GDT blocks:  1014
 Blocks per group: 32768
 Fragments per group:  32768
-Inodes per group: 16384
+Inodes per group: 8192
 Inode blocks per group:   512
-Last mount time:  Sun Jun 14 14:00:14 2009
-Last write time:  Sun Jun 14 14:00:14 2009
-Mount count:  17
-Maximum mount count:  30
-Last checked: Sun Jan 20 17:04:43 2008
-Check interval:   0 ()
+Filesystem created:   Wed Aug 12 14:18:23 2009
+Last mount time:  Tue Sep  8 09:08:05 2009
+Last write time:  Tue Sep  8 09:08:05 2009
+Mount count:  3
+Maximum mount count:  20
+Last checked: Fri Sep  4 18:46:20 2009
+Check interval:   15552000 (6 months)
+Next check after: Wed Mar  3 17:46:20 2010
 Reserved blocks uid:  0 (user root)
 Reserved blocks gid:  0 (group root)
 First inode:  11
-Inode size:  128
+Inode size:  256
+Required extra isize: 28
+Desired extra isize:  28
 Journal inode:8
-First orphan inode:   2097564
+First orphan inode:   3777224
+Default directory hash:   half_md4
+Directory Hash Seed:  8998eea4-7d31-437f-bf0b-a12c3dc853ab
 Journal backup:   inode blocks


2009/9/8 Arie Skliarouk 

> Hi,
>
> Interesting riddle...
>
> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 
>
>> The most notable difference is the read time on files (new HD)
>> 0.047210 read(7, " <= 0)\n {\n  $numLimit = 10;\n }\n\n "..., 4096)
>>
>> Instead of (old HW)
>> 0.001462 read(6, "owItem = $1;\n\n my $RowItems = $s"..., 4096) = 4096
>>
>> That is 40 times slower (it is the same file being opened)
>>
>
> What is the filesystem used on the machines? Do they have similar mount
> flags (no_atime or such)?
> If both are ext2/3, compare "tune2fs -l /dev/sda1" on them.
> Try to mount both filesystems using noatime and compare timings then.
>
> Full disk might affect fragmentation or placement of the files and thus
> require long seeks. As atime needs to be updated (or journal log), buffering
> in memory would not help.
> Test write speed of the disks.
>
> --
> Arie
>
>>
>> I have no idea why there is such a difference
>>
>> hdparm on the old:
>> hdparm -t /dev/sda
>>
>> /dev/sda:
>>  Timing buffered disk reads:  190 MB in  3.02 seconds =  62.87 MB/sec
>>
>> hdparm on the new:
>> # hdparm -t /dev/sda
>>
>> /dev/sda:
>>  Timing buffered disk reads:  314 MB in  3.01 seconds = 104.22 MB/sec
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Noam Meltzer  wrote:
>>
>>> Did you try to check with strace ?
>>>
>>> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 
>>>
 Hi,


 I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
 installation is.

 One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old
 server.

 One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686

 What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
 fast once its running - of perl scripts

 Even the smallest perl script such as this:
 ===
 #!/usr/bin/perl

 use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';

 use DB;

 ===

 Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods

 If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package

 It loads fast

 I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
 newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec

 I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
 see something "big" that is causing the delay.

 The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package 

Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Fast:

time perl t.pl
Done
real0m0.431s
user0m0.416s
sys0m0.016s

Slow

time /tmp/t.pl
Done
real0m1.742s
user0m0.864s
sys0m0.008s


On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Shachar Shemesh  wrote:

>  Noam Rathaus wrote:
>
> Hi Noam,
>
> 1) Both machines have 2GB of memory and are using 200Mb of it..
>
> I think the problem is not memory
>
> So it's probably not IO either.
>
>
> 2) no weird errors, of any kind in the dmesg or /var/log
>
> The newer machine is very new :) I wrote 1 year, it is actually 3 months, I
> don't think its a hardware malfunction, but I could be wrong
>
>  Can you run "time" on the processes on both machines, see how much CPU
> time they take?
>
> Shachar
>
> --
> Shachar Shemesh
> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>
>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

The only obvious one is that read() shown under strace, takes a significant
more time on the new machine than the old one

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Shachar Shemesh  wrote:

>  Noam Meltzer wrote:
>
> the time output does looks like you have higher cpu usage for some reason,
> so i agree with Shachar on this.
>
> you can also try to pinpoint the place the cpu is spent.
> strace and/or ltrace with the '-f -c' flags can help.
>
> I'm not sure about ltrace, but strace will not help. Most of the time is
> spent in user space, not in the kernel.
>
> Strace may help if the problem is time spent in another process (i.e. -
> while the main process is sleeping), but it seems Noam has already tried
> that one and failed to spot any obvious candidates.
>
> Shachar
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
>
>>  Noam Rathaus wrote:
>>
>> I know the time difference doesn't look too bad, but take a bigger code
>> set:
>>
>> Fast:
>> real0m1.682s
>> user0m1.584s
>> sys0m0.064s
>>
>> Slow:
>> real0m16.730s
>> user0m9.345s
>> sys0m0.096s
>>
>>   These times spell "CPU intensive". Does your library do anything
>> special? If you try to import a dummy library, does this still happen?
>>
>> Shachar
>>
>> --
>> Shachar Shemesh
>> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Shachar Shemesh
> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>
>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Shachar Shemesh]

Noam Rathaus wrote:
The only obvious one is that read() shown under strace, takes a 
significant more time on the new machine than the old one

You can split the difference between the platforms into three groups:
Time spent in the kernel (0.032 seconds)
Time spent in userspace (7.761 seconds)
Time spent sleeping or otherwise scheduled out (7.287 seconds)

strace -c goes a long way, and works very hard, to show us information 
that is not useful to us. It counts CPU time spent in system calls, not 
actual wall time. What may provide a more useful output in this case is 
-T, which will also count time in which the process was sleeping inside 
a system call (which accounts for about half the slowdown).


The second half of the slowdown, the one done in user space, is more 
difficult to trace without the sources (i.e. - the perl sources). 
valgrind has a module for detecting what causes a slowdown, but I doubt 
Noam wants to start analyzing perl to figure out what the different 
areas actually mean.


Shachar


On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Shachar Shemesh > wrote:


Noam Meltzer wrote:

the time output does looks like you have higher cpu usage for
some reason, so i agree with Shachar on this.

you can also try to pinpoint the place the cpu is spent.
strace and/or ltrace with the '-f -c' flags can help.

I'm not sure about ltrace, but strace will not help. Most of the
time is spent in user space, not in the kernel.

Strace may help if the problem is time spent in another process
(i.e. - while the main process is sleeping), but it seems Noam has
already tried that one and failed to spot any obvious candidates.

Shachar





On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Shachar Shemesh
mailto:shac...@shemesh.biz>> wrote:

Noam Rathaus wrote:

I know the time difference doesn't look too bad, but take a
bigger code set:

Fast:
real0m1.682s
user0m1.584s
sys0m0.064s

Slow:
real0m16.730s
user0m9.345s
sys0m0.096s


These times spell "CPU intensive". Does your library do
anything special? If you try to import a dummy library, does
this still happen?


Shachar

-- 
Shachar Shemesh

Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com







-- 
Shachar Shemesh

Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com







--
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Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Both machines return around the 0m0.013s value, while the newer one shows a
lower value, not by much (even though it is a 160gb disk, in comparison to
the 40gb disk).

2009/9/8 Arie Skliarouk 

> Try to measure disk seek time on both disks:
>
>  time echo $(dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null count=1 bs=512; dd if=/dev/sda
> of=/dev/null count=1 bs=1 skip=200049647116;)
>
> Replace the last number with size of the disk - several bytes (check using
> fdisk -l).
> The operation would give meaningful result only the first time you run it.
>
> If someone has better way to check disk seek speed, please share.
>
> Are you running the script as root?
> Do you get the same slow results each time you run it or only the first
> time?
> Is there disk thrashing during startup?
>
> --
> Arie
>
>
>
> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 
>
>> Everything is on the /dev/sda
>>
>> And local
>>
>> That is not the answer...
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Gabor Szabo  wrote:
>>
>>> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus :
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
>>> installation
>>> > is.
>>> >
>>> > One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old
>>> server.
>>> >
>>> > One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
>>> >
>>> > What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
>>> fast
>>> > once its running - of perl scripts
>>> >
>>> > Even the smallest perl script such as this:
>>> > ===
>>> > #!/usr/bin/perl
>>> >
>>> > use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';
>>> >
>>> > use DB;
>>> >
>>> > ===
>>> >
>>> > Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods
>>> >
>>> > If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package
>>> >
>>> > It loads fast
>>> >
>>> > I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
>>> > newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec
>>> >
>>> > I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
>>> see
>>> > something "big" that is causing the delay.
>>> >
>>> > The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
>>> > wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
>>> > takes negligible time
>>> >
>>> > Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> A wide guess is that it is searching the @INC and on one system
>>> @INC points to a slow disk maybe via NFS ?
>>>
>>> Gabor
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Meltzer]

Hi,

I would try to focus on the I/O issue. (best guess I have so far)
Some things I would check:
1. file system cache. mayeb the file is already in cache? maybe all memory
is allocated and no free ram for cache? etc.
2. dmesg and/or /var/log/messages -> check if there are weird I/O errors.
(same for raid controller if any)
3. iostat / sar. check the disk performance. see the numbers, especially
throughput, service time & average wait looks reasonable.


On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Noam Rathaus wrote:

> Hi Noam,
>
> Yes I looked with strace.
>
> The most notable difference is the read time on files (new HD)
> 0.047210 read(7, " <= 0)\n {\n  $numLimit = 10;\n }\n\n "..., 4096)
>
> Instead of (old HW)
> 0.001462 read(6, "owItem = $1;\n\n my $RowItems = $s"..., 4096) = 4096
>
> That is 40 times slower (it is the same file being opened)
>
> I have no idea why there is such a difference
>
> hdparm on the old:
> hdparm -t /dev/sda
>
> /dev/sda:
>  Timing buffered disk reads:  190 MB in  3.02 seconds =  62.87 MB/sec
>
> hdparm on the new:
> # hdparm -t /dev/sda
>
> /dev/sda:
>  Timing buffered disk reads:  314 MB in  3.01 seconds = 104.22 MB/sec
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Noam Meltzer  wrote:
>
>> Did you try to check with strace ?
>>
>> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
>>> installation is.
>>>
>>> One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old server.
>>>
>>> One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
>>>
>>> What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
>>> fast once its running - of perl scripts
>>>
>>> Even the smallest perl script such as this:
>>> ===
>>> #!/usr/bin/perl
>>>
>>> use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';
>>>
>>> use DB;
>>>
>>> ===
>>>
>>> Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods
>>>
>>> If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package
>>>
>>> It loads fast
>>>
>>> I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
>>> newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec
>>>
>>> I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
>>> see something "big" that is causing the delay.
>>>
>>> The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
>>> wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
>>> takes negligible time
>>>
>>> Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Noam Rathaus
>>>
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>>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Arie Skliarouk]

Hi,

Interesting riddle...

2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 

> The most notable difference is the read time on files (new HD)
> 0.047210 read(7, " <= 0)\n {\n  $numLimit = 10;\n }\n\n "..., 4096)
>
> Instead of (old HW)
> 0.001462 read(6, "owItem = $1;\n\n my $RowItems = $s"..., 4096) = 4096
>
> That is 40 times slower (it is the same file being opened)
>

What is the filesystem used on the machines? Do they have similar mount
flags (no_atime or such)?
If both are ext2/3, compare "tune2fs -l /dev/sda1" on them.
Try to mount both filesystems using noatime and compare timings then.

Full disk might affect fragmentation or placement of the files and thus
require long seeks. As atime needs to be updated (or journal log), buffering
in memory would not help.
Test write speed of the disks.

--
Arie

>
> I have no idea why there is such a difference
>
> hdparm on the old:
> hdparm -t /dev/sda
>
> /dev/sda:
>  Timing buffered disk reads:  190 MB in  3.02 seconds =  62.87 MB/sec
>
> hdparm on the new:
> # hdparm -t /dev/sda
>
> /dev/sda:
>  Timing buffered disk reads:  314 MB in  3.01 seconds = 104.22 MB/sec
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Noam Meltzer  wrote:
>
>> Did you try to check with strace ?
>>
>> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>> I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
>>> installation is.
>>>
>>> One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old server.
>>>
>>> One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
>>>
>>> What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
>>> fast once its running - of perl scripts
>>>
>>> Even the smallest perl script such as this:
>>> ===
>>> #!/usr/bin/perl
>>>
>>> use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';
>>>
>>> use DB;
>>>
>>> ===
>>>
>>> Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods
>>>
>>> If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package
>>>
>>> It loads fast
>>>
>>> I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
>>> newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec
>>>
>>> I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
>>> see something "big" that is causing the delay.
>>>
>>> The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
>>> wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
>>> takes negligible time
>>>
>>> Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Noam Rathaus
>>>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

So I am stuck

Grrr

Anyone with ideas on how I can understand why "my packages" are causing
issues, while apparently, "perl-provided" packages such as LWP::UserAgent
dont?

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Shachar Shemesh  wrote:

>  Noam Rathaus wrote:
>
> The only obvious one is that read() shown under strace, takes a significant
> more time on the new machine than the old one
>
> You can split the difference between the platforms into three groups:
> Time spent in the kernel (0.032 seconds)
> Time spent in userspace (7.761 seconds)
> Time spent sleeping or otherwise scheduled out (7.287 seconds)
>
> strace -c goes a long way, and works very hard, to show us information that
> is not useful to us. It counts CPU time spent in system calls, not actual
> wall time. What may provide a more useful output in this case is -T, which
> will also count time in which the process was sleeping inside a system call
> (which accounts for about half the slowdown).
>
> The second half of the slowdown, the one done in user space, is more
> difficult to trace without the sources (i.e. - the perl sources). valgrind
> has a module for detecting what causes a slowdown, but I doubt Noam wants to
> start analyzing perl to figure out what the different areas actually mean.
>
>
> Shachar
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
>
>>  Noam Meltzer wrote:
>>
>> the time output does looks like you have higher cpu usage for some reason,
>> so i agree with Shachar on this.
>>
>> you can also try to pinpoint the place the cpu is spent.
>> strace and/or ltrace with the '-f -c' flags can help.
>>
>>  I'm not sure about ltrace, but strace will not help. Most of the time is
>> spent in user space, not in the kernel.
>>
>> Strace may help if the problem is time spent in another process (i.e. -
>> while the main process is sleeping), but it seems Noam has already tried
>> that one and failed to spot any obvious candidates.
>>
>> Shachar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
>>
>>>  Noam Rathaus wrote:
>>>
>>> I know the time difference doesn't look too bad, but take a bigger code
>>> set:
>>>
>>> Fast:
>>> real0m1.682s
>>> user0m1.584s
>>> sys0m0.064s
>>>
>>> Slow:
>>> real0m16.730s
>>> user0m9.345s
>>> sys0m0.096s
>>>
>>>   These times spell "CPU intensive". Does your library do anything
>>> special? If you try to import a dummy library, does this still happen?
>>>
>>> Shachar
>>>
>>> --
>>> Shachar Shemesh
>>> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Shachar Shemesh
>> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Shachar Shemesh
> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>
>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

I know the time difference doesn't look too bad, but take a bigger code set:

Fast:
real0m1.682s
user0m1.584s
sys0m0.064s

Slow:
real0m16.730s
user0m9.345s
sys0m0.096s


On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Noam Rathaus wrote:

> Fast:
>
> time perl t.pl
> Done
> real0m0.431s
> user0m0.416s
> sys0m0.016s
>
> Slow
>
> time /tmp/t.pl
> Done
> real0m1.742s
> user0m0.864s
> sys0m0.008s
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
>
>>  Noam Rathaus wrote:
>>
>> Hi Noam,
>>
>> 1) Both machines have 2GB of memory and are using 200Mb of it..
>>
>> I think the problem is not memory
>>
>> So it's probably not IO either.
>>
>>
>> 2) no weird errors, of any kind in the dmesg or /var/log
>>
>> The newer machine is very new :) I wrote 1 year, it is actually 3 months,
>> I don't think its a hardware malfunction, but I could be wrong
>>
>>  Can you run "time" on the processes on both machines, see how much CPU
>> time they take?
>>
>> Shachar
>>
>> --
>> Shachar Shemesh
>> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>>
>>
>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Hi Gabor,

I didn't check the network traffic, or name resolving, though both are quite
fast

Both are running v5.10.0 i486-linux-gnu-thread-multi

They are on different networks

I don't think its a "name" collision, I agree the name DB is not a good
choice :)

tcpdump shows no name resolution occuring during the execution - so I don't
think is the issue

The DB package, connects to the mysql via socket, other packages I tried
that are also slow, don't connect to mysql

In any case, MySQL responds within milliseconds to a connection request, so
I don't think this is the issue.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Gabor Szabo  wrote:

> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus :
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
> installation
> > is.
> >
> > One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old server.
> >
> > One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
> >
> > What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
> fast
> > once its running - of perl scripts
> >
> > Even the smallest perl script such as this:
> > ===
> > #!/usr/bin/perl
> >
> > use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';
> >
> > use DB;
> >
> > ===
> >
> > Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods
> >
> > If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package
> >
> > It loads fast
> >
> > I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
> > newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec
> >
> > I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
> see
> > something "big" that is causing the delay.
> >
> > The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
> > wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
> > takes negligible time
> >
> > Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?
>
> DB ?
> Why would you call a package DB, that's the debugger back-end of Perl.
> In any case I would rename those packages to something like
> BeyondSecurity::DB
>
> Are there the same versions of Perl?
> Maybe one of them is actually loading the Perl debugger ?
> Though that should not be slow either.
>
> Have you checked for network activity while you are running the script?
>
> Maybe it is trying to connect somewhere and it is slower (or no
> backward name resolving ?)
>
> Gabor
>
>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Shachar Shemesh]

Noam Rathaus wrote:

So I am stuck


Did you try "strace -T -f" yet?

Grrr

Anyone with ideas on how I can understand why "my packages" are 
causing issues, while apparently, "perl-provided" packages such as 
LWP::UserAgent dont?

Did you try an empty "my packages"^H?

Shachar

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Re: Perl slowness

[Shachar Shemesh]

Noam Rathaus wrote:

Hi Noam,

1) Both machines have 2GB of memory and are using 200Mb of it..

I think the problem is not memory

So it's probably not IO either.


2) no weird errors, of any kind in the dmesg or /var/log

The newer machine is very new :) I wrote 1 year, it is actually 3 
months, I don't think its a hardware malfunction, but I could be wrong


Can you run "time" on the processes on both machines, see how much CPU 
time they take?


Shachar

--
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Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Hi Arie,

It happens every time, not just the first time, so I don't think its seek
time

I am running as root

Both machines are remote, so I can't see thrashing :D

2009/9/8 Arie Skliarouk 

> Try to measure disk seek time on both disks:
>
>  time echo $(dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null count=1 bs=512; dd if=/dev/sda
> of=/dev/null count=1 bs=1 skip=200049647116;)
>
> Replace the last number with size of the disk - several bytes (check using
> fdisk -l).
> The operation would give meaningful result only the first time you run it.
>
> If someone has better way to check disk seek speed, please share.
>
> Are you running the script as root?
> Do you get the same slow results each time you run it or only the first
> time?
> Is there disk thrashing during startup?
>
> --
> Arie
>
>
>
> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 
>
>> Everything is on the /dev/sda
>>
>> And local
>>
>> That is not the answer...
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Gabor Szabo  wrote:
>>
>>> 2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus :
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
>>> installation
>>> > is.
>>> >
>>> > One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old
>>> server.
>>> >
>>> > One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
>>> >
>>> > What I am seeing is slow startup - emphasis on startup, the code works
>>> fast
>>> > once its running - of perl scripts
>>> >
>>> > Even the smallest perl script such as this:
>>> > ===
>>> > #!/usr/bin/perl
>>> >
>>> > use lib '/usr/local/MySystem/lib';
>>> >
>>> > use DB;
>>> >
>>> > ===
>>> >
>>> > Take 7 seconds to start, in comparison to 0.030secods
>>> >
>>> > If I don't use the "use DB;" which my package
>>> >
>>> > It loads fast
>>> >
>>> > I am trying to figure out why, I checked the HD speeds via hdparam, the
>>> > newer server is 1.5 times faster 103MB/sec
>>> >
>>> > I tried to see what libraries were being used, used strace, but I can't
>>> see
>>> > something "big" that is causing the delay.
>>> >
>>> > The "use DB;" can be replaced with any other "custom" library package I
>>> > wrote, they all take 2-7 seconds to load, while on the other machine it
>>> > takes negligible time
>>> >
>>> > Does someone have a "thread" to cling to?
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> A wide guess is that it is searching the @INC and on one system
>>> @INC points to a slow disk maybe via NFS ?
>>>
>>> Gabor
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Thanks Dotan for the insight

2009/9/8 Dotan Shavit 

> On Tuesday 08 September 2009, Noam Rathaus wrote:
> > So I am stuck
> >
> > Grrr
> >
> > Anyone with ideas on how I can understand why "my packages" are causing
> > issues, while apparently, "perl-provided" packages such as LWP::UserAgent
> > dont?
> http://www.gksoft.com/a/fun/catch-lion.html
>
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Shachar Shemesh 
> wrote:
> > >  Noam Rathaus wrote:
> > >
> > > The only obvious one is that read() shown under strace, takes a
> > > significant more time on the new machine than the old one
> > >
> > > You can split the difference between the platforms into three groups:
> > > Time spent in the kernel (0.032 seconds)
> > > Time spent in userspace (7.761 seconds)
> > > Time spent sleeping or otherwise scheduled out (7.287 seconds)
> > >
> > > strace -c goes a long way, and works very hard, to show us information
> > > that is not useful to us. It counts CPU time spent in system calls, not
> > > actual wall time. What may provide a more useful output in this case is
> > > -T, which will also count time in which the process was sleeping inside
> a
> > > system call (which accounts for about half the slowdown).
> > >
> > > The second half of the slowdown, the one done in user space, is more
> > > difficult to trace without the sources (i.e. - the perl sources).
> > > valgrind has a module for detecting what causes a slowdown, but I doubt
> > > Noam wants to start analyzing perl to figure out what the different
> areas
> > > actually mean.
> > >
> > >
> > > Shachar
> > >
> > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Shachar Shemesh
> wrote:
> > >>  Noam Meltzer wrote:
> > >>
> > >> the time output does looks like you have higher cpu usage for some
> > >> reason, so i agree with Shachar on this.
> > >>
> > >> you can also try to pinpoint the place the cpu is spent.
> > >> strace and/or ltrace with the '-f -c' flags can help.
> > >>
> > >>  I'm not sure about ltrace, but strace will not help. Most of the time
> > >> is spent in user space, not in the kernel.
> > >>
> > >> Strace may help if the problem is time spent in another process (i.e.
> -
> > >> while the main process is sleeping), but it seems Noam has already
> tried
> > >> that one and failed to spot any obvious candidates.
> > >>
> > >> Shachar
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Shachar Shemesh
> wrote:
> > >>>  Noam Rathaus wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I know the time difference doesn't look too bad, but take a bigger
> code
> > >>> set:
> > >>>
> > >>> Fast:
> > >>> real0m1.682s
> > >>> user0m1.584s
> > >>> sys0m0.064s
> > >>>
> > >>> Slow:
> > >>> real0m16.730s
> > >>> user0m9.345s
> > >>> sys0m0.096s
> > >>>
> > >>>   These times spell "CPU intensive". Does your library do anything
> > >>> special? If you try to import a dummy library, does this still
> happen?
> > >>>
> > >>> Shachar
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Shachar Shemesh
> > >>> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Shachar Shemesh
> > >> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
> > >
> > > --
> > > Shachar Shemesh
> > > Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>
>
>
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Re: Perl slowness

[Dotan Shavit]

On Tuesday 08 September 2009, Noam Rathaus wrote:
> So I am stuck
>
> Grrr
>
> Anyone with ideas on how I can understand why "my packages" are causing
> issues, while apparently, "perl-provided" packages such as LWP::UserAgent
> dont?
http://www.gksoft.com/a/fun/catch-lion.html

>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Shachar Shemesh  wrote:
> >  Noam Rathaus wrote:
> >
> > The only obvious one is that read() shown under strace, takes a
> > significant more time on the new machine than the old one
> >
> > You can split the difference between the platforms into three groups:
> > Time spent in the kernel (0.032 seconds)
> > Time spent in userspace (7.761 seconds)
> > Time spent sleeping or otherwise scheduled out (7.287 seconds)
> >
> > strace -c goes a long way, and works very hard, to show us information
> > that is not useful to us. It counts CPU time spent in system calls, not
> > actual wall time. What may provide a more useful output in this case is
> > -T, which will also count time in which the process was sleeping inside a
> > system call (which accounts for about half the slowdown).
> >
> > The second half of the slowdown, the one done in user space, is more
> > difficult to trace without the sources (i.e. - the perl sources).
> > valgrind has a module for detecting what causes a slowdown, but I doubt
> > Noam wants to start analyzing perl to figure out what the different areas
> > actually mean.
> >
> >
> > Shachar
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Shachar Shemesh 
wrote:
> >>  Noam Meltzer wrote:
> >>
> >> the time output does looks like you have higher cpu usage for some
> >> reason, so i agree with Shachar on this.
> >>
> >> you can also try to pinpoint the place the cpu is spent.
> >> strace and/or ltrace with the '-f -c' flags can help.
> >>
> >>  I'm not sure about ltrace, but strace will not help. Most of the time
> >> is spent in user space, not in the kernel.
> >>
> >> Strace may help if the problem is time spent in another process (i.e. -
> >> while the main process is sleeping), but it seems Noam has already tried
> >> that one and failed to spot any obvious candidates.
> >>
> >> Shachar
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Shachar Shemesh 
wrote:
> >>>  Noam Rathaus wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I know the time difference doesn't look too bad, but take a bigger code
> >>> set:
> >>>
> >>> Fast:
> >>> real0m1.682s
> >>> user0m1.584s
> >>> sys0m0.064s
> >>>
> >>> Slow:
> >>> real0m16.730s
> >>> user0m9.345s
> >>> sys0m0.096s
> >>>
> >>>   These times spell "CPU intensive". Does your library do anything
> >>> special? If you try to import a dummy library, does this still happen?
> >>>
> >>> Shachar
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Shachar Shemesh
> >>> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
> >>
> >> --
> >> Shachar Shemesh
> >> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
> >
> > --
> > Shachar Shemesh
> > Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com



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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Shlomi Fish]

On Tuesday 08 September 2009 10:38:34 Meir Kriheli wrote:
> On 09/08/2009 10:29 AM, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
> > On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Meir Kriheli wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >> Much like the services industry around FLOSS a musician can perform live
> >> concerts, merchandising etc.
> >>
> >> There are people looking for different business model in music as well
> >> utilizing various CC licenses, see for example:
> >>
> >> http://www.jamendo.com/en/
> >
> > These are guerilla movements, not mainstream like free software. The
> > reality is that there is no free content market anywhere approaching the
> > free software market, and the reasons are clear.
> >
> >  - yba
> 
> Just like FLOSS, everybody has to start somewhere. For sure it's bigger
> compared to couple of years ago, and keeps growing.
> 
> That's just an example, you can find more, e.g:
> http://freemusicarchive.org/
> 

Other resources:

1. http://search.creativecommons.org/

2. http://en.wikibooks.org/

3. http://wikimedia.org/ - the Wikipedias and other Wikimedia wikis are free 
content (CC-by-sa + GFDL) and can be redistributed and reused.

4. http://creativecommons.org/weblog - points to many resources about Creative 
Commons and free-content/open-content.

5. http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia - lots of topical wikis that are also open-
content.

6. http://www.flickr.com/search/advanced/? - see their Creative Commons 
search.

And the list goes on. Recently, I've come to like Jamendo and downloaded a lot 
of good stuff from it. And I agree with Meir that the freely-distributable 
content movement needs to start from somewhere, and that hopefully it will 
become more mainstream soon.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

> Cheers
> --
> Meir Kriheli
> 
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-
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Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Omer Zak]

I was primary school student in the pre-1967 Israel.

And at the time our parents were required to purchase books for us each
year.

Books usually were good for few years, so there were used book bazaars.
However, even then there were complaints that publishers issue new
editions each few years.

When I was in Los Angeles, USA, between 1971-72 and attended a junior
high school (corresponds to our "Hativat He'beinaim"), the books there
were loaned to students rather than forcing the students to buy them.

I think the textbook publishers in USA make their dirty money from
school board budgets (usually financed by property taxes) rather than
directly from parents.
 --- Omer


On Tue, 2009-09-08 at 14:35 +0300, Ely Levy wrote:
> I think it was like that also in the pre 67 Israel.
> 
> Ely
> 
> 2009/9/8 Jonathan Ben Avraham 
> Hi Arieh,
> I have edited your post below slightly to exactly match the
> Seattle public school system in the 60's of last century.
> Except for the text in brackets ([]) the rest is identical.
> 
>  - yba
> 
> 
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009, Arie Skliarouk wrote:
> 
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 13:58:14 +0300
> From: Arie Skliarouk 
> To: ILUG 
> 
> Subject: Re: eTextBooks (for kids)
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In [socialistic USSR] capitalist Seattle public school
> system 1961, school books were not bought each year.
> Instead pupils
> 
> had to take them from their's school library for the
> coming year and return
> them at end of the year. Each book had "worn out"
> level marked on cover of
> the book and one had to be careful not to wore out the
> book too much during
> the year. As a penalty for lost or unusable book, the
> student had to buy a
> new book for the library. To draw or mark text in the
> book was a big no-no.
> All books had hard-cover and had strong binding for
> durability. Every
> student was required to put the book he got into
> special plastic boundary.
> If a course required pupils to draw on printed
> material (like letters in the
> first form), the pupil had to buy addendum personal
> notebook he had to draw
> in. I remember I used books with 15-20 name-year pairs
> in it.
> 
> 
> Needless to say, all books were [written] approved by
> a department in the Ministry of Education, and [not]
> private author benefited from the authorship.
> 
> After all there were some good economy tactics in the
> [socialism] capitalism that IMHO should be applied to
> capitalism [Israeli socialism] (albeit forcefully)...
> 
> --
> [Arie] yba

-- 
"Kosher" Cellphones (cellphones with blocked SMS, video and Internet)
are menace to the deaf.  They must be outlawed!
(See also: 
http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/2006/04/21/the-grave-danger-to-the-deaf-from-kosher-cellphones/
 and 
http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/2007/02/04/rabbi-eliashiv-declared-war-on-the-deaf/)
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
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Re: Perl slowness

[Noam Rathaus]

Comparing the two,

I can see that on the slower system
/ <0\.0[^0]

(in VI)

catches 505 read(), brk(), stat64 attempts which take more than 0.01seconds,
1 as high as 0.035575 while 22 taking between 0.019 and 0.30, and the rest
481 above 0.01 and under 0.02

On the other system, there are non that take more than 0.01, almost all take
0.0001 and below

Quite a difference

===

Can you explain what you mean by "my package"?

I have smaller packages, more isoloated that don't manifest this behaviour,
but they are tiny ones, with 6-10 functions...

So maybe its something that is in common with several packages?

How can I find out?

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Shachar Shemesh  wrote:

>  Noam Rathaus wrote:
>
> So I am stuck
>
>  Did you try "strace -T -f" yet?
>
> Grrr
>
> Anyone with ideas on how I can understand why "my packages" are causing
> issues, while apparently, "perl-provided" packages such as LWP::UserAgent
> dont?
>
> Did you try an empty "my packages"^H?
>
> Shachar
>
> --
> Shachar Shemesh
> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>
>
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[OT] [Free association] Re: eTextBooks (for kids)

[Amit Aronovitch]

2009/9/8 Danny Lieberman 

> Yonatan, Dov,  et al
>
> 1. I think an argument against competitive alternatives on the basis of an
> incumbent industry's economic interest is, to say the leastweak.
>
>
Right and true. Luckily, I believe that at some point the alternatives will
become viable enough, and the industry will adapt or be replaced by some
better way to live off creativity.
After all, if 15th century press-printing would have been held-off too long
by the engravers guild or something, there would be no modern academy or
science today. I would probably have to spend a lifetime as apprentice to
some established alchemist, then go seek a patron lord to fund me :-(

My own free-association to this argument was even further off than Dov's
(FOSS): those hate-spam we (at least I) got when the anti-spam law was
passed.
If I recall correctly, the main argument there was that there are people
making a living out of spam and they will lose their jobs (and recursively,
upon reading that, my thought was - there are also people making a living by
theft and robbery, they should be legal as well...).

The Israeli textbook industry is a racket.  This thread would not be
> happening if our children would be learning from standard paper textbooks.
> Virtually all of the K12 educational content from math to science to
> language was invented over 100 years ago - which means that there is no
> functional justification to recreate the content in different forms
> (workbooks, experimental programs etc...) every year and throw out the
> content just to generate more revenue for the folks who feed off the
> Ministry of Education pork barrels.
>
> Israel can save billions by using and recycling standard paper textbooks.
> I'm  talking about impact on family budget, if you factor in impact on the
> environment of throwing out 5-10 million workbooks every year-  then it
> looks really bad.  After we standardize, then we can talk about  a OKLP
> project (One Kindle per Little Person) project.
>
> 2. To set the record straight: there are free digital content (i.e. music
> and video) business models.  All of the artists on MySpace music, Garageband
> and now the big studios provide free content as a way of promoting live
> performances, movie tickets and paid-for content - whether in a VOD
> subscription model, pay per track or pay per view.
>
> 3. The Israeli Ministry of Education is teaching technology in the
> classroom instead of using technology to teach. The worst example I can
> think of is (and I kid you not) a program in first grade to teach children
> how to use Microsoft Windows Paint.
>
>
Well, in fact I did see a "Computer" lesson in my first-grader's brand new
schedule, but I assume this is one of the extra classes they get in our
school, beyond the standard MOE program. I did not receive the details yet,
but I think that as such (teaching technology *in addition* to teaching
other stuff), it is actually a good idea to teach basic computer skills.
Of course, just MSPaint would be a poor choice of contents (and besides,
Tuxpaint also makes those funny noises and much more fun :-) ).


>
>
> Danny
>
>
>
>
Amit
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Re: Perl slowness

[Amos Shapira]

2009/9/8 Noam Rathaus 

> Hi,
>
> I have two machines, their hardware is not identical, but their
> installation is.
>
> One is a 3 years old DELL server, while the other is a 1 year old server.
>
> One is running 2.6.26-2-686 while the other 2.6.30-1-686
>

Which distribution is this? The kernel versions don't suggest RHEL 5 but
still this sounds like a similar problem:

The following RHEL/CentOS bug haven't been closed until someone had the
brains to submit the issue to slashdot:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=379791

This was a bug introduced by RedHat themselves so not cross-platform, but as
far as I remember it was introduced due to wrong patching of a problem in
vanilla perl, so maybe other distro's/versions had similar problems.

Your time output suggests problem at the user code level to me.

What about trying to profile the perl script?

http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/06/25/profiling.html
http://search.cpan.org/~jaw/Devel-Profile-1.05/Profile.pm

And lots others from searching for "perl profile".

--Amos
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