Re: New mail systray icon for Mozilla Mail / Thunderbird

[Ilya Konstantinov]

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 03:21:11PM +0200, Lior Kesos wrote:
> Sorry, false alarm -
> Some setting  was in charge of the "disappearing mails" .

Yeah, it really puzzled me how anything like that could happen :)

> do I need to open the xpi with the firebird or as thunderbird extension ?

FireBird and Thunderbird's components directories are separate
(although they share a lot of components). Here's how you install
Thunderbird components:
http://texturizer.net/thunderbird/extensions.html#usage

(Installing this component in Firebird does no harm. It simply never
uses it.)

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: New mail systray icon for Mozilla Mail / Thunderbird

[Gal Gur-Arie]

hi,

Doesn't seems to work for me too.
I am using KDE desktop and the ThunderBird binary that comes with Debian 
SID packages. [Mozilla Thunderbird 0.3 (20031105)]

I did the following :
Opened Mozilla Thunderbird as RooT.
installed the extension and got success mesage and that i have to 
re-open Moz. Thunderbird.
I closed it and re-opened it.
I have opened the extensions window and it wasn't listed among the 
extensions.
I closed it, opened it has my user and it didn't work.

ls -la /etc/mozilla-thunderbird/pref/
total 120
drwxr-xr-x2 root root 4096 Dec  8 12:53 .
drwxr-xr-x3 root root 4096 Oct 19 08:44 ..
-rw-r--r--1 root root40835 Oct 26 16:17 all.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root 5817 Oct 17 01:45 editor.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root26478 Oct 26 16:17 mailnews.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root  806 Oct 17 01:45 mdn.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root   92 Dec  6 15:53 
mozFreeDesktopIntegration-prefs.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root 1903 Oct 17 01:45 security-prefs.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root  267 Oct 17 01:45 smime.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root15324 Oct 17 01:45 unix.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root  219 Oct 17 01:45 xpinstall.js

anyway this is a great idea.

Cheers,
Gal
Ilya Konstantinov wrote:

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 03:21:11PM +0200, Lior Kesos wrote:
 

Sorry, false alarm -
Some setting  was in charge of the "disappearing mails" .
   

Yeah, it really puzzled me how anything like that could happen :)

 

do I need to open the xpi with the firebird or as thunderbird extension ?
   

FireBird and Thunderbird's components directories are separate
(although they share a lot of components). Here's how you install
Thunderbird components:
http://texturizer.net/thunderbird/extensions.html#usage
(Installing this component in Firebird does no harm. It simply never
uses it.)
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 



=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: New mail systray icon for Mozilla Mail / Thunderbird

[Gal Gur-Arie]

Sorry,

It is working thought it's not listed in the extensions list.

I have 2 problems:
1). Because of bug in GAIM every change in the tray icons - pops up the 
GAIM contact list (Known GAIM bug).
2). I want to remove this extension (Gaim Bug is the reason), but as i 
wrote before -  it doesn't appear in the extensions list.

please let me know what files i need to remove in order to 
disable/remove your extension.

Thanks,
Gal
Gal Gur-Arie wrote:

hi,

Doesn't seems to work for me too.
I am using KDE desktop and the ThunderBird binary that comes with 
Debian SID packages. [Mozilla Thunderbird 0.3 (20031105)]

I did the following :
Opened Mozilla Thunderbird as RooT.
installed the extension and got success mesage and that i have to 
re-open Moz. Thunderbird.
I closed it and re-opened it.
I have opened the extensions window and it wasn't listed among the 
extensions.
I closed it, opened it has my user and it didn't work.

ls -la /etc/mozilla-thunderbird/pref/
total 120
drwxr-xr-x2 root root 4096 Dec  8 12:53 .
drwxr-xr-x3 root root 4096 Oct 19 08:44 ..
-rw-r--r--1 root root40835 Oct 26 16:17 all.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root 5817 Oct 17 01:45 editor.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root26478 Oct 26 16:17 mailnews.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root  806 Oct 17 01:45 mdn.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root   92 Dec  6 15:53 
mozFreeDesktopIntegration-prefs.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root 1903 Oct 17 01:45 security-prefs.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root  267 Oct 17 01:45 smime.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root15324 Oct 17 01:45 unix.js
-rw-r--r--1 root root  219 Oct 17 01:45 xpinstall.js

anyway this is a great idea.

Cheers,
Gal
Ilya Konstantinov wrote:

On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 03:21:11PM +0200, Lior Kesos wrote:
 

Sorry, false alarm -
Some setting  was in charge of the "disappearing mails" .
  


Yeah, it really puzzled me how anything like that could happen :)

 

do I need to open the xpi with the firebird or as thunderbird 
extension ?
  


FireBird and Thunderbird's components directories are separate
(although they share a lot of components). Here's how you install
Thunderbird components:
http://texturizer.net/thunderbird/extensions.html#usage
(Installing this component in Firebird does no harm. It simply never
uses it.)
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 



=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]



=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [KINDERGARDEN]

[Ben-Nes Michael]

are you sure this is the proper way to fight Hebrew posting ?

any way can the mailing list system drop Hebrew writen mail or return them
to the sender stating "no Hebrew allowed" ?

to all with small penis in the list, I get tons of enlarge your pines using
patch pills or what ever. ill be happy to forward it to any one or the list
:)

cheers
--
Canaan Surfing Ltd.
Internet Service Providers
Ben-Nes Michael - Manager
Tel: 972-4-6991122
Fax: 972-4-6990098
http://www.canaan.net.il
--
- Original Message - 
From: "Gilad Ben-Yossef" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ez-Aton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "David Howard"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 6:11 PM
Subject: [KINDERGARDEN] Nadav has a small penis


> On Sunday 07 December 2003 15:15, Ez-Aton wrote:
> > Some poeple just don't know what humor is.
>
> It's not a question of humor, it's a question of penis size.
>
> It's a well known scientific fact (published in "Scientific Maariv" but I
> seem to have misplaced the link) that people who have small penises try to
> hide their shame by acts of random anti social behavior, as our Mr. Mavor
> exemplifies so beautifully.
>
> So don't be angry with Nadav, feel sorry for him. He has a small penis.
>
> Gilad :-)
>
> -- 
> Gilad Ben-Yossef <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Codefidence. A name you can trust (tm)
> http://www.codefidence.com
>
> "Half of one of my eyes is already open. I'm going to make coffee now..."
> -- Kathi 16:08:04
>
>
> =
> To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>



=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Hebrew (was [KINDERGARDEN])

[Iftach Hyams]

>> any way can the mailing list system drop Hebrew writen mail 
 
^^^
>> or return them to the sender stating "no Hebrew allowed" ?

It is a strange idea to prohibit Hebrew on Israeli mailing
list instead of helping people configure their mail clients.




This e-mail message has been sent by Elbit Systems Ltd.
and is for the use of the intended recipients only.
The message may contain privileged or confidential information .
If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any use,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited,
and you are requested to delete the e-mail and any attachments
and notify the sender immediately.

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

trying to unsubscribe...

[Elio Ben-Ami]

Title: trying to unsubscribe...





Dear Linux users,
I tried to unsubscribe, several times, by sending an email, following the instructions below,
but w/ no success.
I also got an approval for this request, but I still getting new massages...
Can somebody PLEASE, help me to get off from this mail list.


my email is [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Many thanks, Elio.

RE: Hebrew (was [KINDERGARDEN])

[Aaron]

This means you want to limit those who don't know hebrew.

What if an american needs hebrew support in Linux for a project. He
would be excluded from the hebrew threads.

I understand the gist of hebrew but certainly not word for word...

Also there are hebrew list aren't there?
Aaron
On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 13:30, Iftach Hyams wrote:
> >> any way can the mailing list system drop Hebrew writen mail 
>  
> ^^^
> >> or return them to the sender stating "no Hebrew allowed" ?
> 
> It is a strange idea to prohibit Hebrew on Israeli mailing
> list instead of helping people configure their mail clients.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This e-mail message has been sent by Elbit Systems Ltd.
> and is for the use of the intended recipients only.
> The message may contain privileged or confidential information .
> If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any use,
> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited,
> and you are requested to delete the e-mail and any attachments
> and notify the sender immediately.
> 
> =
> To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Hebrew (was [KINDERGARDEN])

[Ben-Nes Michael]

> >> any way can the mailing list system drop Hebrew writen mail 
>  
> ^^^
> >> or return them to the sender stating "no Hebrew allowed" ?

strange or not this is the general list opinion and one of the list law.
look in the list archives for the reasons.

> It is a strange idea to prohibit Hebrew on Israeli mailing
> list instead of helping people configure their mail clients.
> 


--
Canaan Surfing Ltd.
Internet Service Providers
Ben-Nes Michael - Manager
Tel: 972-4-6991122
Fax: 972-4-6990098
http://www.canaan.net.il
--


=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Hebrew (was [KINDERGARDEN])

[Shachar Shemesh]

Iftach Hyams wrote:

any way can the mailing list system drop Hebrew writen mail 
 

^^^
 

or return them to the sender stating "no Hebrew allowed" ?
 

It is a strange idea to prohibit Hebrew on Israeli mailing
list instead of helping people configure their mail clients.
 

A mailing list is a shared resource. It is a donation (in this case, by 
HUJI) of network and disk space resources for a purpose. This purpose is 
emobided in something called "the list's charter". It's a list of does 
and don'ts regarding what is, and what is not acceptable on the list.

Linux-IL's charter is located at the FAQ at 
http://iglu.org.il/faq/cache/2.html, and was formed by means of a 
concensus between those list subscribers who decided to voice their 
opinion. Every so often, someone on Linux-IL, usually a well known name, 
posts an angry email suggesting something be changed in the charter. 
This happens, on average, once every half a year. One well known topic 
of dispute was whether the list should add "Reply-To" directing all 
replies back to the list. Another topic (raised by me) was whether the 
list should strip headers requesting read confirmation. Each time such a 
topic is raised, the topic is debated in the mutually respecting way 
between the list's members (read - a flame war ensues), and some 
conclusion is reached. Sometimes, the conclusion is even carried out 
(though I'm still waiting for the list to block read-confirmation, 
despite it being the agreed conclusion).

Now, here's the thing. While the topics mentioned above, as well as 
other (whether job offers are legit, for example) are repeating topics, 
non is so repeating as the question of whether Hebrew posts should be 
allowed or not. This topic was brought up again and again and again. 
Each time, the same answer is reached - Linux-IL is an English only 
list. Personally, I have used this fact to point people who speak little 
or no Hebrew at all to this list, and I know for a fact that so did 
other people as well.

This is not to say that emails with a bit of Hebrew are an absolute 
no-no. For example, occasionally someone has problems with Hebrew 
reordering, and posts a short sentance examplifying that problem. Nobody 
loses their heads over such things. However, sending entire emails in 
Hebrew is not acceptable on this list. It is against the list's charter, 
and forcing your way through is nothing short of an act of strong-arming 
your minority opinion.

It appears that one distinguished member of the Israeli LInux community, 
however, is reluctant to get this message. He is insisently sending, 
once every several months, a mail in Hebrew with no specific 
justification. Whenever people comment to him about this fact, he gets 
angry and accuses people of sharing classified information with the 
enemy, and other forms of betreyal (well, mostly other forms). I think 
Iftach's suggestion was merely an attempt for this list to protect 
itself from people determined to ignore it's charter.

Personally, I think there are better ways of doing such things. For 
example - instead of applying and overall filter, merely flagging 
repeated offenders as "require moderation" will do much better. Like I 
mentioned before, occasionally, some Hebrew is apropriate even on this list.

Shachar

--
Shachar Shemesh
Open Source integration & consulting
Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/
The opinions expressed in this mail are my own, and do not necessarily
represent the opinions of my employer.
Wait! I am self employed! Hmm...


=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

IGLU & pc.co.il Linux events [ was Re: hebrew linux conference]

[Karasik, Vitaly]

Last months there are many Linux events organized by
Ligad/Emet/Power/etc. and published in Daily Maily list.
>From the other side, there are many Linux lectures in Haifux, Telux;
free Linux seminars in IBM Haifa and more.


IMHO, someone from Makor or IGLU should contact "People and Computers"
in  order to publish P&C events on IGLU site/maillist and visa versa.

I'm trying to support updated list of [more or less] Linux-related
events in Israel  for my coworkers;
I post this calendar to linux_il_ru community in livejournal [Russian
only, http://www.livejournal.com/community/linux_il_ru/]. I'll be happy
to provide such list to Makor people.



BTW,  IBM Linux day has been planned on 7.12.2003 and was shifted to
18.12.2003. I informed IBM Linux staff about Linux&desktop day 18.12,
but it did not  help.

Vitaly Karasik, RHCE




***
Information contained in this email message is intended only for use of the individual 
or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or 
the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are 
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication 
is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please 
immediately notify the [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original message.
***

To unsubscribe, send 
mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Hebrew (was [KINDERGARDEN])

[Iftach Hyams]

Thank U for the pointer and the manifest. Didn't see it before.
If it is of interest for the list members, I agree with the English oriented
list approach, and yet, automatic filtering (out) of Hebrew messages doesn't
make sense to me as an proud Israeli.












This e-mail message has been sent by Elbit Systems Ltd.
and is for the use of the intended recipients only.
The message may contain privileged or confidential information .
If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any use,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited,
and you are requested to delete the e-mail and any attachments
and notify the sender immediately.

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Hebrew (was [KINDERGARDEN])

[Ben-Nes Michael]

> Thank U for the pointer and the manifest. Didn't see it before.
> If it is of interest for the list members, I agree with the English
oriented
> list approach, and yet, automatic filtering (out) of Hebrew messages
doesn't
> make sense to me as an proud Israeli.
> 
>

what is better ? every time a Hebrew letter will arrive everybody will start
to argue or insult the sender ?

I think its better that the mail will be blocked and the sender will get an
email saying your message was blocked because "bla bla bla" please resend it
in the proper language

--
Canaan Surfing Ltd.
Internet Service Providers
Ben-Nes Michael - Manager
Tel: 972-4-6991122
Fax: 972-4-6990098
http://www.canaan.net.il
--



=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: IGLU & pc.co.il Linux events [ was Re: hebrew linux conference]

[Muli Ben-Yehuda]

On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 03:31:24PM +0200, Karasik, Vitaly wrote:

> IMHO, someone from Makor or IGLU should contact "People and Computers"
> in  order to publish P&C events on IGLU site/maillist and visa
> versa.

Great, do you volunteer?

> I'm trying to support updated list of [more or less] Linux-related
> events in Israel  for my coworkers;
> I post this calendar to linux_il_ru community in livejournal [Russian
> only, http://www.livejournal.com/community/linux_il_ru/]. I'll be happy
> to provide such list to Makor people.

If you're already making such a list, how about just posting it here
once a week / month / on a case by case basis? In english, please,
we've had our language / penis length flame war for this quarter
already. 

> BTW,  IBM Linux day has been planned on 7.12.2003 and was shifted to
> 18.12.2003. I informed IBM Linux staff about Linux&desktop day 18.12,
> but it did not  help.

What is the Linux&desktop day? URI?

Cheers, 
Muli 
-- 
Muli Ben-Yehuda
http://www.mulix.org | http://mulix.livejournal.com/

"the nucleus of linux oscillates my world" - [EMAIL PROTECTED]



signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

RE: IGLU & pc.co.il Linux events [ was Re: hebrew linux conference]

[Karasik, Vitaly]

>
>
> > IMHO, someone from Makor or IGLU should contact "People and
> Computers"
> > in  order to publish P&C events on IGLU site/maillist and visa
> > versa.
>
> Great, do you volunteer?

Yes, I do. But - I don't sure is P&C will accept Vitaly in the same way
as someone from Makor Board of Directors.


>
> > BTW,  IBM Linux day has been planned on 7.12.2003 and was shifted to
> > 18.12.2003. I informed IBM Linux staff about Linux&desktop
> day 18.12,
> > but it did not  help.
>
> What is the Linux&desktop day? URI?

I'm speaking about Linux&desktop&hebrew day [see Eli Marmor's letter]
***
Information contained in this email message is intended only for use of the individual 
or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or 
the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are 
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication 
is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please 
immediately notify the [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original message.
***

To unsubscribe, send 
mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [KINDERGARDEN]

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 01:06:00PM +0200, Ben-Nes Michael wrote:
> are you sure this is the proper way to fight Hebrew posting ?
> 
> any way can the mailing list system drop Hebrew writen mail or return them
> to the sender stating "no Hebrew allowed" ?

It probably shouldn't because occasionally a Hebrew word or two are useful.

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen   +---+
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend|
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   +---+

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Article in Globes

[Gabor Szabo]

I have not seen it mentioned here (maybe I wasn't looking ?)

Open question	
The government claims open-source software means a 60% saving. It doesn't 
add up.

Basically it sais that the TCO of Open Source is higher than that of
propriatery solutions and it because of the "forking problem" it is risky
to use OS.
It sais that the Government of Israel should not move from MS an
other propriatery solutions to OS.
The English version of the article can be found here:
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=747399&fid=980
Gabor

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Article in Globes

[Aaron]

A study commisioned by Microsoft, not bias...

A windows based business doesn't have a system admin??

btw. open source webservers are accepted as the standard.

But what else is new. Just don't use widoze for mission critical
applications and you will be ok.
Aaron


=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Article in Globes

[Ely Levy]

since when does anyone take globes seriously when it come to opensource
issue?:)
it's not the first or second time they prove to be full of crap and bias

Ely Levy
System group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem Israel



On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Gabor Szabo wrote:

>
> I have not seen it mentioned here (maybe I wasn't looking ?)
>
> Open question
> The government claims open-source software means a 60% saving. It doesn't
> add up.
>
> Basically it sais that the TCO of Open Source is higher than that of
> propriatery solutions and it because of the "forking problem" it is risky
> to use OS.
> It sais that the Government of Israel should not move from MS an
> other propriatery solutions to OS.
>
> The English version of the article can be found here:
> http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=747399&fid=980
>
> Gabor
>
> =
> To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Article in Globes

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 06:27:36PM -0200, Gabor Szabo wrote:
> 
> I have not seen it mentioned here (maybe I wasn't looking ?)
> 

The following is from the article:

> Open question 
> The government claims open-source software means a 60% saving. It doesn't 
> add up.
> 
> Basically it sais that the TCO of Open Source is higher than that of
> propriatery solutions and it because of the "forking problem" it is risky
> to use OS.
> It sais that the Government of Israel should not move from MS an
> other propriatery solutions to OS.
> 
> The English version of the article can be found here:
> http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=747399&fid=980

One nice quote from the article:

| So what's wrong with saving money on licensing fees and 5%-8% of TCO
| with a switch to open-source software? The problem is that the costs of
| customization, maintenance and training are usually considerably higher
| under open-source solutions. A study published last year by the research
| firm IDC compared the TCO of an open-source Linux-based server to the
| TCO of Microsoft Windows 2000. The study found that the TCO of Windows
| was lower than the TCO of Linux in four out of five common workload
| scenarios. IDC surveyed 104 medium-sized and large enterprises operating
| in various industries in North America and concluded that, over a
| five-year period, Windows is 11 to 22.5 percent cheaper to own than
| Linux.
| 
| Although Microsoft Corporation commissioned the IDC study, it is
| generally accepted that IDC did not rig the results. IDC has a number of
| large corporate clients and it used the same methodology as in other
| cost-comparison studies that it has performed in the past. Another
| factor that adds credibility to the IDC results is that leading open
| source advocates accept the findings of the study. They acknowledge that
| open-source software cannot currently beat Microsoft on a TCO basis. 

It is certainly widely acceptable. Because MS pays enough people to
accept it. Get real, please. Which "leading open source advocates" has
accepted it as it is? (Some people at Caldera, maybe?)


Anybody with a link to the statement by IDC that basically said "We
rigged too much for Microsoft, and people start to think of us as
dishonest. We'll behave in the future"?

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen   +---+
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend|
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   +---+

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Article in Globes

[dittigas]

It's enough to look at this to read it in the "right light":

"A new "shared source" initiative is emerging whereby governments and large 
corporate clients can access proprietary software code, helping to assuage 
fears of secret security backdoors. The code is called "shared" rather than 
"open", since clients are allowed to see the code but are not allowed to 
modify it. Shared source initiatives are expected to pick up steam in the 
years ahead. "

Firstly "shared source" is microsoft-only term and AFAIK no one else is 
joining it in the industry. Not only it has nothing to do with OSS, since 
when "shared source" became an alternative to OSS and what exactly 
governemnts going to benefit from having access to the code?

I thought the benfites were for the developers who can modify and extend and 
redistirubte and not for the end users - and in that respect it has something 
to do with the costs only indirectly.

The only relevant point was that OSS is a real power in the commercial 
software world, like Sauer rightfully notes, including behind Microsoft's 
success.

Sauer also forgets to mention IBM and Novell in respect to who drives OSS 
development and who will fulfill "customers needs" as oppose to "the 
developers needs".

On Monday 08 December 2003 21:27, Gabor Szabo wrote:
> I have not seen it mentioned here (maybe I wasn't looking ?)
>
> Open question
> The government claims open-source software means a 60% saving. It doesn't
> add up.
>
> Basically it sais that the TCO of Open Source is higher than that of
> propriatery solutions and it because of the "forking problem" it is risky
> to use OS.
> It sais that the Government of Israel should not move from MS an
> other propriatery solutions to OS.
>
> The English version of the article can be found here:
> http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=747399&fid=980
>
> Gabor
>
> =
> To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Article in Globes

[Yishay Mor]

Guys,

Don't you think [EMAIL PROTECTED] should be >cc:ed on this 
thread?  A bit pointless preaching for OSS on this list, eh?

Oh, and by the way - see the bottom of the globes page:

   "This site is best viewed with Microsoft Explorer, version 5 or 
later, at resolution 1024 x 768"

Gabor Szabo wrote:

I have not seen it mentioned here (maybe I wasn't looking ?)

Open question   
The government claims open-source software means a 60% saving. It 
doesn't add up.

Basically it sais that the TCO of Open Source is higher than that of
propriatery solutions and it because of the "forking problem" it is risky
to use OS.
It sais that the Government of Israel should not move from MS an
other propriatery solutions to OS.
The English version of the article can be found here:
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=747399&fid=980
Gabor

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
**
Yishay Mor
	   http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=4381&4381_0=7303
	   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Ph +44(0)20 7612 6963 F +44(0)20 7612 6964 
	   AIM,Yahoo: yishaym; Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ICQ: 179772099
	   
	   If this helped you, please take the time to rate the value of this post:
	   http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=yishaym
**
celebrating 100 years of excellence in education 
		www.ioe.ac.uk/centenary



=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Article in Globes

[Gil Freund]

Gabor Szabo wrote:

I have not seen it mentioned here (maybe I wasn't looking ?)

Open question   
The government claims open-source software means a 60% saving. It 
doesn't add up.

Basically it sais that the TCO of Open Source is higher than that of
propriatery solutions and it because of the "forking problem" it is risky
to use OS.
It sais that the Government of Israel should not move from MS an
other propriatery solutions to OS.
The English version of the article can be found here:
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=747399&fid=980
Gabor

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blobes is business newspaper. Microsoft is a business. FOSS is a way of 
developing software and knowlage. Oranges and Tuna fish.
Money can be made out of, or using FOSS, but FOSS is not a business 
model. I think Microsoft understands this much better then the business 
magazines, which is why FUD is their common weapon in this area.

As for TCO; it's very easy to lower TCO in MS based environments:
1. You ignore third party solution required to complete the MS 
environment (I have yet to see an MS shop without 30-40% of the software 
componanted suplemnting MS shortcommings).
2. With big contract, MS will directly or inderectly, provide support 
and consulting with no fee. As no money changes hands, the TCO is ssems 
lower, but this does not provide a true pricture, as it does not apply 
to smaller enntities.
3. With MS, you do it the MS way. If your ornaizational structure does 
not match the AD way of thinking, you change the organization. This, 
again, is not calculated as TCO, as it is not an IT issue, but an 
organizational issue.

Gil

--
=
Gil Freund  Sysnet consulting
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sysnet.co.il
voice: +972-52-676906 Fax: +972-8-9356026
=
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Article in Globes

[Shachar Shemesh]

Gil Freund wrote:

As for TCO; it's very easy to lower TCO in MS based environments:
1. You ignore third party solution required to complete the MS 
environment (I have yet to see an MS shop without 30-40% of the 
software componanted suplemnting MS shortcommings).
2. With big contract, MS will directly or inderectly, provide support 
and consulting with no fee. As no money changes hands, the TCO is 
ssems lower, but this does not provide a true pricture, as it does not 
apply to smaller enntities.
3. With MS, you do it the MS way. If your ornaizational structure does 
not match the AD way of thinking, you change the organization. This, 
again, is not calculated as TCO, as it is not an IT issue, but an 
organizational issue.

Gil
That's not it.

This study is a MS sponsored study. While IDC did their own research, 
they were told what parameters to test this under. In particular:
1. Whether or not certain aspects were checked. Security patching, anyone?
2. Time over which this was tested (coming back to 1 - anyone knows a 
shop that does not upgrade an MS product in 5 years. Why wasn't upgrade 
costs covered? An MS product is EOL after three years, four at most).
3. Which companies to ask.

Taking all of the above into consideration, anyone can be made to look 
good. I did expect more from Globes, though. Saying that "despite it 
being sponsored by Microsoft" seems unproffessional to me.

TCO has always amazed me as a meter. Ask any IT manager what the TCO of 
any product WAS (read - past tense), and then ask yourself what that 
answer means. This NEVER includes everything, because you cannot include 
everything. How much time people spent cursing about it's use. How much 
time the admin spent reading the manual. How many times they were 
interrupted for unrelated tasks.

And yet, we hear of people asking for TCO calculations about the future. 
What do they mean?

--
Shachar Shemesh
Open Source integration & consulting
Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/
The opinions expressed in this mail are my own, and do not necessarily
represent the opinions of my employer.
Wait! I am self employed! Hmm...


=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Article in Globes

[Gil Freund]

Shachar Shemesh wrote:

Gil Freund wrote:

[snip]


That's not it.

This study is a MS sponsored study. While IDC did their own research, 
they were told what parameters to test this under. In particular:
1. Whether or not certain aspects were checked. Security patching, anyone?
2. Time over which this was tested (coming back to 1 - anyone knows a 
shop that does not upgrade an MS product in 5 years. Why wasn't upgrade 
costs covered? An MS product is EOL after three years, four at most).
3. Which companies to ask.
I have not read the original, and it is not linked in the globes 
article, but I think we are basically saying the same. An MS shop can be 
made to look good in TCO terms, especially in larger organizations which 
get a much sweeter deal, at the expense of small and medium business.

Taking all of the above into consideration, anyone can be made to look 
good. I did expect more from Globes, though. Saying that "despite it 
being sponsored by Microsoft" seems unproffessional to me.

TCO has always amazed me as a meter. Ask any IT manager what the TCO of 
any product WAS (read - past tense), and then ask yourself what that 
answer means. This NEVER includes everything, because you cannot include 
everything. How much time people spent cursing about it's use. How much 
time the admin spent reading the manual. How many times they were 
interrupted for unrelated tasks.

And yet, we hear of people asking for TCO calculations about the future. 
What do they mean?

If what you are saying is that TCO cannot be calculated, I disagree.
Take this very easy comparison:
Assume the following
1. A windows workstation will (on an average) have to be rebooted once a 
week during working hours due to a memory leak or other issues.
2. Assume you need an average of 15 minutes per reboot (figuring out 
that no other solution will work, doing the reboot, logging in again and 
getting to your most recent work stated)
3. Assume you have 180 working days a year.
4. Assume 9 hour work day.
this adds up to 1 work day per year per worker lost due to MS issues.

Now, assume the following:
You have 100 workers.
You pay minimum wages
You just lost 26,500 NIS or 4 man months.
The assumptions above are conservative.

You could go deeper and analyze any aspect of IT. You don't need (an 
actually you can't) do a complete TCO analysis as some information (such 
as wages) are out of your reach, but you can certainly assess the down 
times, the labor and the software and hardware costs.
Let finance and HR do the rest.

Gil

--
=
Gil Freund  Sysnet consulting
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sysnet.co.il
voice: +972-52-676906 Fax: +972-8-9356026
=
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: New mail systray icon for Mozilla Mail / Thunderbird

[Ilya Konstantinov]

On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 01:48:55PM +0200, Gal Gur-Arie wrote:
> It is working thought it's not listed in the extensions list.

Thanks for letting me know. I'll find out how to integrate into it for
the next version.
 
> 2). I want to remove this extension (Gaim Bug is the reason), but as i 
> wrote before -  it doesn't appear in the extensions list.

As I said, will be fixed. Meanwhile, you can disable it: right-click
the icon when it pops up, and choose "Hide". It will not appear again.
(To make it reappear, you'd have to edit your prefs and enable
"mail.biff.show_icon".)

To uninstall it completely:
1. Erase mozFreeDesktopIntegration.so from the 'components' directory.
2. Erase mozFreeDesktopIntegration-prefs.js from 'defaults/pref'
directory.
3. (Might be required.) Erase lines referring to
mozFreeDesktopIntegration.so, if any, from the 'components/compreg.dat'
file.

=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Globes [online] - Open question

[Yishay Mor]

Dear Sir,

In a recent article 
(http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=747399&fid=980 
) 
you conclude:
   "In sum, open-source systems are currently too risky, and are less 
cost-effective than commercial software products."

I find it quite a surprise to hear such a conclusive statement coming 
from an independent academic.

1. In terms of TCO, which is the main thrust of the article, you are 
surely aware of the fact that the analysts are from from unanimous as 
could be implied by your review. Robert Frances group, as an example, 
quote a factor of between 2 and 3 in favour of Linux 
(http://www-1.ibm.com/linux/RFG-LinuxTCO-vFINAL-Jul2002.pdf). See also 
http://techrepublic.com.com/5100-6296-1060248.html.

2. To assume that a research funded by MicroSoft, the company most 
threatened by Linux, is impartial and objective is naive, to say the 
least. I am sure that you are also aware that this research has been 
scrutinized for its methodology, for instance the fact that it was 
conducted over a period of 5 years, without accounting for advances 
during this period.

3. Even protagonists of windows admit that its TCO advantage diminishes, 
if not reverses altogether, as the number of managed systems increases. 
This fact is particularly relevant for the government sector.

4. Extrapolating from the OS to all software systems needs 
justification. Many European institutions are shifting towards replacing 
MS-Office with OpenOffice. I believe the Israeli government is 
considering this option as well.  In this case, I can see no "TCO 
advantage" for MicroSoft.

5. Presenting MicroSoft's stance on Linux and OSS is unquestionably 
important. However, I would expect to see it balanced by IBM and 
Oracle's position.

6. The data you presented fails to explain the rapid growth in Linux and 
OSS market share over the last decade. Surely, you do not attribute this 
phenomena to massive marketing campaigns.

7. Last, the claim that "open-source systems are risky" warrants 
explanation. I find it hard to recall when was the last time a Linux 
based enterprise was jeopardized by an email worm. Apache web server 
obtained dominance not for its price, but for its reliability.

Sincerely,

- Yishay Mor



--
**
Yishay Mor
	   http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=4381&4381_0=7303
	   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Ph +44(0)20 7612 6963 F +44(0)20 7612 6964 
	   AIM,Yahoo: yishaym; Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ICQ: 179772099
	   
	   If this helped you, please take the time to rate the value of this post:
	   http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=yishaym
**
celebrating 100 years of excellence in education 
		www.ioe.ac.uk/centenary



=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Globes [online] - Open question

[Mark Veltzer]

On Tuesday 09 December 2003 01:35, you wrote:
> Dear Sir,
>
> In a recent article
> (http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=747399&fid=980
> )
> you conclude:
> "In sum, open-source systems are currently too risky, and are less
> cost-effective than commercial software products."
>
> I find it quite a surprise to hear such a conclusive statement coming
> from an independent academic

Well written reply, but I expect the man is just a small minded economics 
professor who's whole lifes work depends to analyzing large corporations and 
the "magic" they create. How disappointing for him to find out that 
volunteers could do better!!! Alas - his life was wasted if that is the 
case... No - his truth must be defended!!! Small minds go into economics... 
That's why they always pick mathematicians to represent them at the Nobel 
prize awards...:)

Cheers,
Mark

-- 
Name: Mark Veltzer
Title: Research and Development, Meta Ltd.
Address: Habikaa 17/3, Kiriat-Sharet, city.holon, Gush-Dan, country.israel 
58495
Phone: +972-03-5581310
Fax: +972-03-5581310
Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.veltzer.org
OpenSource: CPAN, user: VELTZER, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], url: 
http://search.cpan.org/author/VELTZER/
Public key: http://www.veltzer.org/ascx/public_key.asc, wwwkeys.pgp.net, 
0xC71E5D38


To unsubscribe, send 
mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]