Re: Having problems with phrasing and ties combined

[Paul Hodges]

On 15/09/2021 00:05:33, "Carlos Martinez" 
 wrote:

 > I just copied and pasted the same code into lilypond using Frescobaldi 
and got the error. The score does not renders….

OK, so the code itself is not the problem.  This feels to me like an 
incompatibility between the LilyPond installation and the operating 
system.  Maybe some incompatible library, either because the OS is much 
older or newer, or because installation of another program has changed 
something unexpectedly.  Or even a hardware problem - but you'd expect 
to see other problems in that case.  Such things are hard to deal with 
remotely...

 > Now I am using 2.18 instead of 2.23 but I doubt that is the problem…

It isn't; the exact same code compiles on 2.18.2 (the version on the 
LilyBin.com site at which you can do compilations on-line).

 >How do you tie chords ? Is it with ~? I thought maybe that was my 
problem?

Ties are indicated by ~ and that's that; there cannot be a problem 
there.  Chords can be tied on all notes by placing it after the whole 
chord, or you can place it after individual notes in the chord for 
special requirements.

It's not causing your problem, but why use phrasing slurs:  " \("  "\)?  
Plain slurs:  "("  ")" are that bit easier to write and read.  They are, 
as far as I know, identical in behaviour - I think phrasing slurs were 
simply introduced to get over the restriction that slurs cannot be 
nested in a voice.

Paul

Re: Having an actual hyphen in the lyrics?

[Kira Garvie]

Valentin,
No, it didn’t work exactly, but it worked well enough that I am happy with
it!

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 1:25 AM Valentin Petzel  wrote:

> Hello Kira,
>
> if you use "on –" then you are treating this as one syllable. So this way
> Lilypond won't align the – under the tied note, if that is still intended.
>
> Cheers,
> Valentin
>
> 15.09.2021 00:43:35 Kira Garvie :
>
> Actually, I had quite a few spelling errors, I am sorry! Verse two is
> supposed to be arouse, so that is also a dash. Carl was right, the correct
> term was a dash not a hyphen, and putting it in quotes with on: “on – ”
> worked perfectly, and it looks great! Sorry for the mistakes, and thank you
> for the help!
>
> On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 6:34 PM David Wright 
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue 14 Sep 2021 at 18:05:17 (-0400), Kira Garvie wrote:
>> > Okay, I tried that, but it bumps the lyrics all over one. In the
>> original
>> > page scan, which I am following, the hyphen falls right under the tied
>> d
>> > 8th note. How do I override the tie to get the hyphen there?
>>
>> You don't want a hyphen there, you need a lyric extender: "__"
>> (without my quotes). You put one in the second verse,
>> precisely underneath.
>>
>> You probably want to replace the extender in the second verse
>> with a hyphen: "--" because I presume the word is onerous
>> (e, not a).
>>
>> Note that LP's intraword hyphens don't aim to line up with anything
>> musical, because that isn't the convention.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David.
>>
>>

Re: Having problems with phrasing and ties combined

[David Kastrup]

Paul Hodges  writes:

> It's not causing your problem, but why use phrasing slurs:  " \("  "\)?  
> Plain slurs:  "("  ")" are that bit easier to write and read.  They are, 
> as far as I know, identical in behaviour

They aren't.  They are typographically outward from normal slurs and are
played differently, something which is quite relevant in the MIDI
rendition.

> - I think phrasing slurs were simply introduced to get over the
> restriction that slurs cannot be nested in a voice.

They can, by identifying the corresponding slurs, for example by
preceding them with \=1 and \=2, respectively.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Having problems with phrasing and ties combined

[Paul Hodges]

Thanks for the updates; I have places they will help!

On simultaneous slurs, I guess that the identifiers were introduced in 
2.20, later than I've revisited that part of the manuals - the 2.18 
learning manual still states the prohibition.

As an aside to that, I wonder if it would be worth while to restrict 
access to older manuals by Google.  A Google search (which I often use 
to include other sources of information and hints) more often than not 
presents an older version of LilyPond documentation, and I try to 
remember to change the URL to 2.22 each time!

Paul

On 15/09/2021 12:00:35, "David Kastrup"  wrote:

>Paul Hodges  writes:
>
>>  It's not causing your problem, but why use phrasing slurs:  " \("  "\)?
>>  Plain slurs:  "("  ")" are that bit easier to write and read.  They are,
>>  as far as I know, identical in behaviour
>
>They aren't.  They are typographically outward from normal slurs and are
>played differently, something which is quite relevant in the MIDI
>rendition.
>
>>  - I think phrasing slurs were simply introduced to get over the
>>  restriction that slurs cannot be nested in a voice.
>
>They can, by identifying the corresponding slurs, for example by
>preceding them with \=1 and \=2, respectively.
>
>--
>David Kastrup

Re: Having problems with phrasing and ties combined

[David Kastrup]

Paul Hodges  writes:

> Thanks for the updates; I have places they will help!
>
> On simultaneous slurs, I guess that the identifiers were introduced in 
> 2.20, later than I've revisited that part of the manuals - the 2.18 
> learning manual still states the prohibition.

2.19.29 for \=

commit cf4323bf84b6880082f8e8bafcac87a282a0da7e
Author: David Kastrup 
Date:   Sat Oct 3 07:58:57 2015 +0200

Issue 4626/1: Create \= command for setting spanner-id

but the underlying feature is from 2.15.5:

commit 32776795a1be5c0ec472f59694510705607673b0
Author: Reinhold Kainhofer 
Date:   Sat Jul 2 22:23:53 2011 +0200

Fix issues 75 and 1256: Allow multiple concurrent slurs

and it's trivial to add a definition for \= (or a different name) in
code intended to run on 2.18.  The work is all there, just without a
tolerably convenient user interface and convincing documentation.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Having an actual hyphen in the lyrics?

[Valentin Petzel]

Hello Kira,

The problem with this is that how well it works depends on the horizontal 
spacing of the system. I’ve attached a short example of how you can tell 
Lilypond to actually align the dash under the note. It involves setting 
melismaBusyProperties to make Ties not be handles as melisma in the one case, 
and manually skipping the tied note in the other stanzas using _

Cheers,
Valentin\new Staff {
  \key bes\major 
  \autoBeamOff
  \partial 16
  f'16 |
  bes'4 bes'
  bes'~ \once\set melismaBusyProperties = #'() bes'8. f'16 |
  g'8.
}
\addlyrics {
  \set stanza = "1."
  The fight is on –
  the trum
}
\addlyrics {
  \set stanza = "2."
  The fight is on __ _
  a -- rous,
}
\addlyrics {
  \set stanza = "2."
  The fight is 
  lea -- _ ding on
}

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Having an actual hyphen in the lyrics?

[Carl Sorensen]

On 9/15/21, 11:20 AM, "lilypond-user on behalf of Valentin Petzel" 
 wrote:

Hello Kira,

The problem with this is that how well it works depends on the horizontal 
spacing of the system. I’ve attached a short example of how you can tell 
Lilypond to actually align the dash under the note. It involves setting 
melismaBusyProperties to make Ties not be handles as melisma in the one 
case, 
and manually skipping the tied note in the other stanzas using _

I actually don't think that the intent is to place the dash under the tied 
note.  I think the dash is punctuation in the lyrics, not a lyric itself.

That's why I think the "lyric --" solution is the right solution.

Thanks,

Carl

Re: Having problems with phrasing and ties combined

[Knute Snortum]

--
Knute Snortum


On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 5:52 AM Paul Hodges  wrote:

> As an aside to that, I wonder if it would be worth while to restrict
> access to older manuals by Google.

I doubt we'd be able to do that, but...

> A Google search (which I often use
> to include other sources of information and hints) more often than not
> presents an older version of LilyPond documentation, and I try to
> remember to change the URL to 2.22 each time!

You can restrict your Google search by using quotes like this:

lilypond "2.22" learning manual

That usually gets me very close to the documentation I want.

Re: Having problems with phrasing and ties combined

[David Kastrup]

Knute Snortum  writes:

> --
> Knute Snortum
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 5:52 AM Paul Hodges  wrote:
>
>> As an aside to that, I wonder if it would be worth while to restrict
>> access to older manuals by Google.
>
> I doubt we'd be able to do that, but...

A suitable robots.txt file should be able to keep web crawlers away from
older versions.

-- 
David Kastrup

Old style bass clef

[Stanton Sanderson]

I am trying to reproduce a manuscript which use an old style bass clef. A 
screen shot from > is shown below.The code 
apparently worked at one time, but fails when I run it. 
%% <= http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Old-Bass-Clef-td28833.html 

% add by P.P.Schneider on March 2014. Edited on June. 2017.
The LSR snippet is a bit long, so I’m not reproducing it here. I would be 
grateful for some help- perhaps someone has an update?
The symbol: 


Thanks,

Stan

Re: Old style bass clef

[Aaron Hill]

On 2021-09-15 6:49 pm, Stanton Sanderson wrote:

I am trying to reproduce a manuscript which use an old style bass
clef. A screen shot from > is shown below.The code
apparently worked at one time, but fails when I run it.
%% <= http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Old-Bass-Clef-td28833.html

% add by P.P.Schneider on March 2014. Edited on June. 2017.
The LSR snippet is a bit long, so I’m not reproducing it here. I would
be grateful for some help- perhaps someone has an update?


Seems to be some odd quoting going on.  Does this version work better?


my-clef =
#(ly:make-stencil
  '(path 0.001
 (moveto   -0.10  -0.35
  curveto  -0.10  -1.11   0.48  -1.80   1.25  -1.80
  curveto   1.75  -1.80   2.20  -1.60   2.50  -1.05
  curveto   2.55  -0.95   2.50  -0.90   2.43  -0.95
  curveto   2.20  -1.17   1.90  -1.48   1.45  -1.48
  curveto   0.70  -1.48   0.15  -0.85   0.15  -0.15
  curveto   0.15   0.45   0.62   0.83   1.05   0.83
  curveto   1.55   0.83   1.90   0.50   1.90   0.05
  curveto   1.90  -0.35   1.55  -0.71   1.20  -0.71
  curveto   0.80  -0.71   0.60  -0.40   0.63  -0.17
  curveto   0.75  -0.30   0.90  -0.31   1.00  -0.31
  curveto   1.20  -0.31   1.38  -0.10   1.38   0.15
  curveto   1.38   0.35   1.20   0.55   0.95   0.55
  curveto   0.60   0.52   0.39   0.25   0.39  -0.05
  curveto   0.39  -0.52   0.62  -0.89   1.20  -0.89
  curveto   1.65  -0.89   2.07  -0.50   2.07   0.10
  curveto   2.07   0.66   1.56   1.01   1.05   1.01
  curveto   0.28   1.01  -0.10   0.35  -0.10  -0.35
  moveto2.42   0.20
  curveto   2.54   0.20   2.64   0.30   2.64   0.42
  curveto   2.64   0.54   2.54   0.64   2.42   0.64
  curveto   2.30   0.64   2.20   0.54   2.20   0.42
  curveto   2.20   0.30   2.30   0.20   2.42   0.20
  moveto2.42  -0.20
  curveto   2.54  -0.20   2.64  -0.30   2.64  -0.42
  curveto   2.64  -0.54   2.54  -0.64   2.42  -0.64
  curveto   2.30  -0.64   2.20  -0.54   2.20  -0.42
  curveto   2.20  -0.30   2.30  -0.20   2.42  -0.20
  closepath)
 round round #t)
   (cons -0.1 2.65)
   (cons -1.3 1))



-- Aaron Hill

Re: Old style bass clef

[Aaron Hill]

(re-adding mailing list for visibility...)

On 2021-09-15 8:26 pm, Stanton Sanderson wrote:

Unfortunately, no. With Lilypond 2.23.3, substituting \clef my-clef
for \cleff bass in the code results in Frescobaldi’s Lilypond Log
spitting out a list of supported types:

warning: unknown clef type `my-clef'
warning: supported clefs: C F G G2 GG…. (And so on). Will look further 
tomorrow.


Wait... what error were you getting with the original LSR snippet?  Was 
it not something like this?



GNU LilyPond 2.22.0
Processing `custom-bass-clef.ly'
Parsing...
Interpreting music...
Preprocessing graphical objects...
Finding the ideal number of pages...
Fitting music on 1 page...
Drawing systems...
Layout output to `custom-bass-clef.cropped.eps'...
warning: unknown line-cap-style: (quote round)
/usr/local/lilypond/usr/share/lilypond/current/scm/output-ps.scm:272:49: 
In procedure symbol->string in expression (symbol->string join):
/usr/local/lilypond/usr/share/lilypond/current/scm/output-ps.scm:272:49: 
Wrong type argument in position 1 (expecting symbol): (quote round)



"\clef my-clef" is nonsense.  You would have to register a new clef type 
(if that is even possible), and the LSR snippet certainly is not doing 
that.  It is replacing the stencil for a bass clef, but you still say 
\clef bass.



-- Aaron Hill

Re: Having an actual hyphen in the lyrics?

[David Wright]

On Tue 14 Sep 2021 at 18:43:06 (-0400), Kira Garvie wrote:
> Actually, I had quite a few spelling errors, I am sorry! Verse two is
> supposed to be arouse, so that is also a dash. Carl was right, the correct
> term was a dash not a hyphen, and putting it in quotes with on: “on – ”
> worked perfectly, and it looks great! Sorry for the mistakes, and thank you
> for the help!

On the lyrics, yes, you're right—I should have googled first.

As for the hyphen/dash, it all depends on the editorial style of the
hymnnal. I gravitate to the norms that LP uses by default for
lyric hyphens, extenders and syllable alignment. Looking at a few
non-conformist hymn books I happen to have, they don't.

As others have pointed out, you can line up hyphens with notes by
setting them as actual lyrics, but bear in mind that real lyric
hyphens have slightly different dimensions from those you insert
by hand. (Real ones are typically longer, thinner, and rounded.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: Having an actual hyphen in the lyrics?

[Aaron Hill]

On 2021-09-15 9:13 pm, David Wright wrote:

As others have pointed out, you can line up hyphens with notes by
setting them as actual lyrics, but bear in mind that real lyric
hyphens have slightly different dimensions from those you insert
by hand. (Real ones are typically longer, thinner, and rounded.)


LSR 1090 [1] is a snippet I wrote to utilize an actual hyphen (or really 
anything you want) from a font in place of simply drawing a rectangle.


[1]: https://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=1090


-- Aaron Hill

Re: Having an actual hyphen in the lyrics?

[Valentin Petzel]

Hello Carl,

you mean this could be meant as an interruption dash: The fight is on – the 
trumpet sound is ringing out...

In this case I would expect the dash to be evenly spaced between on and the. 
This could be achieved by using hyphen and overriding the stencil for 
LyricsHyphen to a dash. May one should then use a m dash — to accentuate the 
difference to a lyrics hyphen.

Cheers,
Valentin

15.09.2021 20:36:40 Carl Sorensen :

> 
> 
> On 9/15/21, 11:20 AM, "lilypond-user on behalf of Valentin Petzel" 
>  valen...@petzel.at> wrote:
> 
>     Hello Kira,
>    
>     The problem with this is that how well it works depends on the horizontal
>     spacing of the system. I’ve attached a short example of how you can tell
>     Lilypond to actually align the dash under the note. It involves setting
>     melismaBusyProperties to make Ties not be handles as melisma in the one 
> case,
>     and manually skipping the tied note in the other stanzas using _
> 
> I actually don't think that the intent is to place the dash under the tied 
> note.  I think the dash is punctuation in the lyrics, not a lyric itself.
> 
> That's why I think the "lyric --" solution is the right solution.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Carl