Re: simple question 1 where's the pdf for all the manuals for 2.22? a better response I hope more polite

[Silvain Dupertuis]

The files you mention do not seem to contain PDF documentation
but only different snippets...
But for such a huge documentation, maybe PDF is not the best choice.
Using HTML with all the internal links to pages and snippets is probably better.

It might be possible, if one likes to use documentation locally, to download the site with 
a utility like httrack 

Silvain

Le 03.08.21 à 02:56, David Wright a écrit :

On Mon 02 Aug 2021 at 18:44:10 (-0600), jh wrote:

Carl - that works fine for the notation but with 2.18 I have all the
information in one huge pdf.  This doesn't work at all with 2.22 the
only pdf that seems available is the one you directed to me but going
to the bottom of any other subject doesn't show a pdf and in fact
there is a confusing line that says go back to the main page for docs.

So the impolite question was 'really' but actually I'd rather actually
have the pdf that I'm used to/need.  This is not that.
thanks for the help.

If bandwidth isn't an issue, you can download "the lot" from
https://lilypond.org/download/binaries/documentation/

The PDFs are a little unusually placed in the archive, under
share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/

Multiple languages in multiple formats for "every" version.

Cheers,
David.


--
Silvain Dupertuis
Route de Lausanne 335
1293 Bellevue (Switzerland)
tél. +41-(0)22-774.20.67
portable +41-(0)79-604.87.52
web: silvain-dupertuis.org 

RE: simple question 1 where's the pdf for all the manuals for 2.22? a better response I hope more polite

[Timothy Lanfear]

Nick Payne use to create a PDF portfolio of all the documentation following
a release, e,g.
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2013-12/msg01302.html, but
hasn't done so for several years.

-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user  On
Behalf Of Aaron Hill
Sent: 03 August 2021 02:07
To: jh 
Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org; Carl Sorensen 
Subject: Re: simple question 1 where's the pdf for all the manuals for 2.22?
a better response I hope more polite

On 2021-08-02 5:44 pm, jh wrote:
> Carl - that works fine for the notation but with 2.18 I have all the 
> information in one huge pdf.  This doesn't work at all with 2.22 the 
> only pdf that seems available is the one you directed to me but going 
> to the bottom of any other subject doesn't show a pdf and in fact 
> there is a confusing line that says go back to the main page for docs.
> 
> So the impolite question was 'really' but actually I'd rather actually 
> have the pdf that I'm used to/need.  This is not that.
> thanks for the help.

To my knowledge, there has never been a single PDF containing all the
manuals.  Of course, you could download each individual PDF and manually
stitch them together; but that might cause problems for the table of
contents and inter-document links.

The PDFs are, admittedly, a little hidden when you come from the main
manuals page [1].  You need to click on the parenthetical "details" link for
each section, which then will give you the link to its PDF.  Once you are on
one of these pages, there is a banner with links to the other details pages.

[1]: http://lilypond.org/manuals.html


-- Aaron Hill

Rainbow Bells

[Wols Lists]

I've got a set of Rainbow Bells -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Percussion-Workshop-CB8-Coloured-Combi/dp/B007902JRG/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=rainbow+bells+cb8&qid=1627984472&sr=8-4

I've modified the coloured-noteheads code to be an approximate match,
and I'm quite pleased with it, but does anybody just happen to have it
modified for the full 20-bell set with the correct colours?

Cheers,
Wol

Re: Persian music package

[Thomas Morley]

Am Mo., 2. Aug. 2021 um 18:33 Uhr schrieb Kees van den Doel :
>
>
> Sorry, keep forgetting to "reply-all"...
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Kees van den Doel 
> Date: Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 9:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Persian music package
> To: Thomas Morley 
>
>
> Too many things wrong with that, starting with missing sori symbol, wrong 
> koron symbol in key signature.
>  'v' should affect only MIDI etc. The example mehr.ly  in the example/ in my 
> zip file is a better test, shur.ly I just posted to illustrate unmetered 
> notes.
>
> Cheers,
> Kees
> Kees
>
Please have a look at the attached pdf. Is it correct?
It's pretty difficult for me to get it right, not knowing persian music at all.

Cheers,
  Harm


persian-smufl-test.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document

Re: Persian music package

[Kees van den Doel]

Looks good. For testing just compare output as gotten from my package with
old LP version. I haven't run all regression on the new persian.ly (that
works with current LP version) yet.

It's actually quite simple: everything is the same except for 2 new
accidentals Koron and Sori which affect pitch as documented. The -v suffix
affects only MIDI and could be dropped, was more of an experiment.
It seemed I could not add  these extra accidentals (and their pitch in
MIDI) but had to redefine all accidentals.
Ugly but it has worked fine for over a decade.

Proper integration with LP would be better but hasn't happened.

Anyways it's now working fine with current version so I'm happy.

Thanks,
Kees

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 7:32 AM Thomas Morley 
wrote:

> Am Mo., 2. Aug. 2021 um 18:33 Uhr schrieb Kees van den Doel <
> kvd...@gmail.com>:
> >
> >
> > Sorry, keep forgetting to "reply-all"...
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: Kees van den Doel 
> > Date: Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 9:24 AM
> > Subject: Re: Persian music package
> > To: Thomas Morley 
> >
> >
> > Too many things wrong with that, starting with missing sori symbol,
> wrong koron symbol in key signature.
> >  'v' should affect only MIDI etc. The example mehr.ly  in the example/
> in my zip file is a better test, shur.ly I just posted to illustrate
> unmetered notes.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Kees
> > Kees
> >
> Please have a look at the attached pdf. Is it correct?
> It's pretty difficult for me to get it right, not knowing persian music at
> all.
>
> Cheers,
>   Harm
>

Re: Persian music package

[Thomas Morley]

Am Di., 3. Aug. 2021 um 17:03 Uhr schrieb Kees van den Doel :
>
> Looks good. For testing just compare output as gotten from my package with 
> old LP version. I haven't run all regression on the new persian.ly (that 
> works with current LP version) yet.

Ok, then you may be interested in the attached .zip.
There I made accidentals from the Bravura-font work.
It's all compilable with 2.22.0
Nevertheless, you will need to review/convert your old files, since
2.12. a lot happened.

> It's actually quite simple: everything is the same except for 2 new 
> accidentals Koron and Sori which affect pitch as documented. The -v suffix 
> affects only MIDI and could be dropped, was more of an experiment.
> It seemed I could not add  these extra accidentals (and their pitch in MIDI) 
> but had to redefine all accidentals.
> Ugly but it has worked fine for over a decade.
>
> Proper integration with LP would be better but hasn't happened.

The only thing which prevents us from doing so is indeed the absence
of accidental-glyphs for Sori and Koron.
I was going to write a bug-report, before I noticed we already have one:
https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/738
And the there attached .zip contains already your persian.ly  lol

Cheers,
  Harm

Re: Persian music package

[Thomas Morley]

Am Di., 3. Aug. 2021 um 18:18 Uhr schrieb Thomas Morley
:
>
> Am Di., 3. Aug. 2021 um 17:03 Uhr schrieb Kees van den Doel 
> :
> >
> > Looks good. For testing just compare output as gotten from my package with 
> > old LP version. I haven't run all regression on the new persian.ly (that 
> > works with current LP version) yet.
>
> Ok, then you may be interested in the attached .zip.

Now attached ...
<>

Re: simple question 1 where's the pdf for all the manuals for 2.22? a better response I hope more polite

[David Wright]

On Tue 03 Aug 2021 at 09:44:33 (+0200), Silvain Dupertuis wrote:
> The files you mention do not seem to contain PDF documentation
> but only different snippets...

It's unclear to me what you mean. I mentioned a website, and I see it
contains files such as:

[ ] lilypond-2.20.0-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2020-03-01 17:55  139M  
[ ] lilypond-2.21.0-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2020-04-09 15:39  141M  
[ ] lilypond-2.21.1-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2020-04-28 11:45  141M  
…  …  …
[ ] lilypond-2.21.82-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2020-12-15 13:20  191M  
[ ] lilypond-2.22.0-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2021-01-10 15:45  191M  
[ ] lilypond-2.22.1-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2021-04-26 08:55  191M  
[ ] lilypond-2.23.0-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2021-01-24 14:59  191M  
[ ] lilypond-2.23.1-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2021-03-23 12:10  189M  
[ ] lilypond-2.23.2-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2021-04-12 12:37  189M  
[ ] lilypond-2.23.3-1.documentation.tar.bz2 2021-07-04 09:30  193M  
[TXT] readme.txt 2017-06-10 14:27  236   

Now, excuse me if I don't download lilypond-2.22.1-1.documentation.tar.bz2
as I already have lilypond-2.22.0-1.documentation.tar.bz2 and which
contains the following PDFs (size and filename):

$ tar -tvf lilypond-2.22.0-1.documentation.tar.bz2 | grep 'pdf$' | cut -c 
20-31,48- | sort -k 2
 145683  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/changes.de.pdf
 123940  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/changes.es.pdf
 148374  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/changes.fr.pdf
 145806  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/changes.it.pdf
 141120  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/changes.pdf
1086419  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/contributor.pdf
1284790  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/essay.de.pdf
1302093  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/essay.es.pdf
1058975  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/essay.fr.pdf
1287247  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/essay.hu.pdf
1293605  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/essay.it.pdf
1284038  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/essay.pdf
 384284  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/extending.de.pdf
 413587  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/extending.es.pdf
 439844  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/extending.fr.pdf
 383906  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/extending.pdf
4692816  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/internals.pdf
1786251  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/learning.ca.pdf
1811419  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/learning.de.pdf
1817486  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/learning.es.pdf
1813993  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/learning.fr.pdf
1126970  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/learning.hu.pdf
1774430  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/learning.it.pdf
1556621  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/learning.nl.pdf
1710978  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/learning.pdf
 135830  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/ancient-headword.pdf
  48917  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/ancient-headword.preview.pdf
  54225  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/aucun-snippet.pdf
  50682  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/aucun-snippet.preview.pdf
 251868  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/bach-bwv610.pdf
  72512  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/bach-bwv610.preview.pdf
  77618  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/bach-schenker.pdf
  77302  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/bach-schenker.preview.pdf
 136405  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/cary.pdf
 135956  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/cary.preview.pdf
  50486  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/chart.pdf
  50494  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/chart.preview.pdf
  55963  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/granados.pdf
  55901  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/granados.preview.pdf
 355129  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/orchestra.pdf
 355448  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/orchestra.preview.pdf
 143978  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/sesto-full.pdf
  78477  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/sesto-full.preview.pdf
 123921  ./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/sesto-piano.pdf
  62477  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/sesto-piano.preview.pdf
  73769  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/sesto-violin.pdf
  50812  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/sesto-violin.preview.pdf
  78869  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documentation/ly-examples/stockhausen-klavierstueckII.pdf
  78860  
./share/doc/lilypond/html/Documen

Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a non-grouped part (example attached)

[D. B. Miller]

Thanks Jean. This is quite useful. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure how 
to make it into the generalized solution I need. This works well if I 
have a specific number of systems, and I know how many systems I will 
need before turning on the grouping --- which causes problems if I don't 
want to break manually (which I try to avoid if possible). Returning to 
the solo also requires going to a new part with this. The mid-staff 
bracket works well, though.


Maybe this is just beyond LP's current capabilities, at least when it 
comes to things you don't have to do manually. Maybe a better solution 
could involve some sort of invisible staff (?) which is meant to overlap 
with the solo staff, or something else quite out there. Preferably I 
would like a way to turn the grouping's visibility on and off, but I 
can't see a way to do this via overrides in the music.


All the best,
Daniel

Jul 30, 2021 17:36:37 Jean Abou Samra :




Le 30/07/2021 à 14:46, Daniel Benjamin Miller a écrit :

Hi all,

I want to replicate this feature, often found in manually-engraved 
vocal scores. Although the feature I am talking about should be 
obvious from the images, I will attempt to describe it. Basically, the 
staff group starts partway through a system, as we switch from a solo 
to a choral part. If necessary, another staff appears (filled with 
rests as appropriate).


I know it is possible to insert a [ bar manually (although I cannot 
quite figure out how to do this in a way that looks like a staff group 
across staffs). Since the staff grouping needs to continue in the 
following systems, and since I don't want to manually break my score, 
I don't think that's a reasonable option either.


The solution I have been trying to work out essentially involves 
trying to having the systems all be part of the staff group, but to 
suppress the engraving of the staff group bracket where appropriate 
(or something like that?). Still, it's proven to be a bit too 
intricate for me.


Has anyone else done this? I know there are some of you who have 
greater expertise, and I'm probably not the first person to at least 
try to include this element in a score.


All the best,
Daniel



Hi Daniel,

Too bad that I can't find the snippet again -- anyway, here is a
remixed version of a hacky piece of code I once wrote for the
French list:

\version "2.22.1"

#(define add-bracket
   (grob-transformer 'stencil
 (lambda (grob original)
   (let* ((vag (ly:grob-object grob 'axis-group-parent-Y))
  (elts (ly:grob-array->list
  (ly:grob-object vag 'elements)))
  (system-start-delim
    (filter
  (lambda (g)
    (and (grob::has-interface g
'system-start-delimiter-interface)
 (not (eq? 'SystemStartBar (grob::name g)
  elts)))
 (if (eqv? 1 (length system-start-delim))
 (ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
   original
   X
   LEFT
   (ly:grob-property (first system-start-delim)
 'stencil)
   (ly:grob-property grob 'padding))
 (ly:warning "should have 1 delimiter, found ~a"
 (length system-start-delim)))

forceBar =
\context Timing \applyContext
  #(lambda (context)
 (if (null? (ly:context-property context 'whichBar))
 (set! (ly:context-property context 'whichBar)
   "")))

midStaffBracket = {
  \forceBar
  \once \override StaffGroup.SpanBar.stencil = #add-bracket
}

\layout {
  \context {
    \StaffGroup
    % Padding added between the bracket and the bar in case they
    % are both present.
    \override SpanBar.padding = 0.8
  }
}



\new StaffGroup \with {
  %% Change the number of systems with no bracket at the beginning.
  \alterBroken transparent #(make-list 2 #t) SystemStartBracket
}
<<
  \new Staff {
    \repeat unfold 20 c'1
    c2 \midStaffBracket c2 \midStaffBracket
    \repeat unfold 79 c'1
  }
  \new Staff \repeat unfold 100 c'1






(From a development perspective...)

To enable doing this more properly, one would have to start out
by making system start delimiters items rather than spanners. The
use of \alterBroken is not super natural here, it's tripped up
other before... Last time I looked, the problem was that in
theory you can always take the X-extent and X-offset of an
item before line breaking, and system start braces (as opposed
to brackets) have a horizontal extent that depends on the amount
of space between staves. So I wasn't very sure about the approach,
but probably this could be picked up.


Cheers,
Jean

Re: Persian music package

[Adam Good]

Hi Everyone,
I just had a chance to look at this thread today. Thomas I downloaded and
ran persian-smufl and it seems to work great.

Seems like the main thing holding up a persian.ly is the absence of two
glyphs. I'd be happy to help sponsor the creation of koron and sori
symbols...anyone else?

Adam


On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 12:19 PM Thomas Morley 
wrote:

> Am Di., 3. Aug. 2021 um 18:18 Uhr schrieb Thomas Morley
> :
> >
> > Am Di., 3. Aug. 2021 um 17:03 Uhr schrieb Kees van den Doel <
> kvd...@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > Looks good. For testing just compare output as gotten from my package
> with old LP version. I haven't run all regression on the new persian.ly
> (that works with current LP version) yet.
> >
> > Ok, then you may be interested in the attached .zip.
>
> Now attached ...
>

slurUp not honored for acciaccatura/appoggiatura if first note

[Knute Snortum]

I've run into what I think is a bug (and I couldn't find it in gitlab
Issues). If an acciaccatura or appoggiatura is the first note in a
piece, a \slurUp is not honored (it stays a down slur). Subsequent
notes work fine. MWE:

%%%
\version "2.23.3"

\relative c' {
  \acciaccatura { \slurUp d8 } c4 \acciaccatura { \slurUp d8 } c4
  \acciaccatura { \slurUp d8 } c4 \acciaccatura { \slurUp d8 } c4
}

\relative c' {
  \appoggiatura { \slurUp d8 } c4 \appoggiatura { \slurUp d8 } c4
  \appoggiatura { \slurUp d8 } c4 \appoggiatura { \slurUp d8 } c4
}
%%%

Is there a work-around?

--
Knute Snortum

incipits

[Kees van den Doel]

I have a score with different key signatures in the voices. The incipit
does not align properly as the flat takes space and shifts things.
See attached. I've simply added the incipits to each voice as in the
example in the docs.

I've tried adding key signature to top incipit voice and setting
  \once \override KeySignature.transparent = ##t
but this does not hide the flat.

Maybe related I would like to hide the mensural time signature as it's not
in the original. Again
  \override TimeSignature.transparent = ##t
has no effect.

Is there a proper way to do this?
[image: Image1.jpg]

Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a non-grouped part (example attached)

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

-- Forwarded message --
> From: "D. B. Miller" 
> To: Jean Abou Samra , LilyPond User Group <
> lilypond-user@gnu.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 19:45:07 + (UTC)
> Subject: Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a non-grouped
> part (example attached)
> Thanks Jean. This is quite useful. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure how
> to make it into the generalized solution I need. This works well if I
> have a specific number of systems, and I know how many systems I will
> need before turning on the grouping --- which causes problems if I don't
> want to break manually (which I try to avoid if possible). Returning to
> the solo also requires going to a new part with this. The mid-staff
> bracket works well, though.
>
> Maybe this is just beyond LP's current capabilities, at least when it
> comes to things you don't have to do manually. Maybe a better solution
> could involve some sort of invisible staff (?) which is meant to overlap
> with the solo staff, or something else quite out there. Preferably I
> would like a way to turn the grouping's visibility on and off, but I
> can't see a way to do this via overrides in the music.
>
> All the best,
> Daniel
>
> Jul 30, 2021 17:36:37 Jean Abou Samra :
>
> >
> >
> > Le 30/07/2021 à 14:46, Daniel Benjamin Miller a écrit :
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I want to replicate this feature, often found in manually-engraved
> >> vocal scores. Although the feature I am talking about should be
> >> obvious from the images, I will attempt to describe it. Basically, the
> >> staff group starts partway through a system, as we switch from a solo
> >> to a choral part. If necessary, another staff appears (filled with
> >> rests as appropriate).
> >>
> >> I know it is possible to insert a [ bar manually (although I cannot
> >> quite figure out how to do this in a way that looks like a staff group
> >> across staffs). Since the staff grouping needs to continue in the
> >> following systems, and since I don't want to manually break my score,
> >> I don't think that's a reasonable option either.
> >>
> >> The solution I have been trying to work out essentially involves
> >> trying to having the systems all be part of the staff group, but to
> >> suppress the engraving of the staff group bracket where appropriate
> >> (or something like that?). Still, it's proven to be a bit too
> >> intricate for me.
> >>
> >> Has anyone else done this? I know there are some of you who have
> >> greater expertise, and I'm probably not the first person to at least
> >> try to include this element in a score.
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >> Daniel
> >
> >
> > Hi Daniel,
> >
> > Too bad that I can't find the snippet again -- anyway, here is a
> > remixed version of a hacky piece of code I once wrote for the
> > French list:
> >
> > \version "2.22.1"
> >
> > #(define add-bracket
> >(grob-transformer 'stencil
> >  (lambda (grob original)
> >(let* ((vag (ly:grob-object grob 'axis-group-parent-Y))
> >   (elts (ly:grob-array->list
> >   (ly:grob-object vag 'elements)))
> >   (system-start-delim
> > (filter
> >   (lambda (g)
> > (and (grob::has-interface g
> > 'system-start-delimiter-interface)
> >  (not (eq? 'SystemStartBar (grob::name g)
> >   elts)))
> >  (if (eqv? 1 (length system-start-delim))
> >  (ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
> >original
> >X
> >LEFT
> >(ly:grob-property (first system-start-delim)
> >  'stencil)
> >(ly:grob-property grob 'padding))
> >  (ly:warning "should have 1 delimiter, found ~a"
> >  (length system-start-delim)))
> >
> > forceBar =
> > \context Timing \applyContext
> >   #(lambda (context)
> >  (if (null? (ly:context-property context 'whichBar))
> >  (set! (ly:context-property context 'whichBar)
> >"")))
> >
> > midStaffBracket = {
> >   \forceBar
> >   \once \override StaffGroup.SpanBar.stencil = #add-bracket
> > }
> >
> > \layout {
> >   \context {
> > \StaffGroup
> > % Padding added between the bracket and the bar in case they
> > % are both present.
> > \override SpanBar.padding = 0.8
> >   }
> > }
> >
> >
> >
> > \new StaffGroup \with {
> >   %% Change the number of systems with no bracket at the beginning.
> >   \alterBroken transparent #(make-list 2 #t) SystemStartBracket
> > }
> > <<
> >   \new Staff {
> > \repeat unfold 20 c'1
> > c2 \midStaffBracket c2 \midStaffBracket
> > \repeat unfold 79 c'1
> >   }
> >   \new Staff \repeat unfold 100 c'1
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > (From a development perspective...)
> >
> > To enable doing this more properly, one would have to start out
> > by making system start delimiters items rather than spanners. The
> > use of \alterBroken is n

Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a non-grouped part (example attached)

[Daniel Benjamin Miller]

Hi Elaine,

I already do this. But this is not sufficient for creating the effect 
necessary (as seen in the original example images). Frenching is 
perfectly sufficient so long as the staffs are never in the same system. 
But it does not enable the transition between the two to be done within 
a system as found in the old vocal scores. This is why it is necessary 
to do mid-system (i.e., usually, mid-measure) switches to the "group".


Best,
Daniel

On 8/3/21 9:54 PM, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:




-- Forwarded message --
From: "D. B. Miller" mailto:dbmil...@dbmiller.org>>
To: Jean Abou Samra mailto:j...@abou-samra.fr>>, LilyPond User Group
mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org>>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 19:45:07 + (UTC)
Subject: Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a
non-grouped part (example attached)
Thanks Jean. This is quite useful. Unfortunately I'm not quite
sure how
to make it into the generalized solution I need. This works well if I
have a specific number of systems, and I know how many systems I will
need before turning on the grouping --- which causes problems if I
don't
want to break manually (which I try to avoid if possible).
Returning to
the solo also requires going to a new part with this. The mid-staff
bracket works well, though.

Maybe this is just beyond LP's current capabilities, at least when it
comes to things you don't have to do manually. Maybe a better
solution
could involve some sort of invisible staff (?) which is meant to
overlap
with the solo staff, or something else quite out there. Preferably I
would like a way to turn the grouping's visibility on and off, but I
can't see a way to do this via overrides in the music.

All the best,
Daniel

Jul 30, 2021 17:36:37 Jean Abou Samra mailto:j...@abou-samra.fr>>:

>
>
> Le 30/07/2021 à 14:46, Daniel Benjamin Miller a écrit :
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I want to replicate this feature, often found in manually-engraved
>> vocal scores. Although the feature I am talking about should be
>> obvious from the images, I will attempt to describe it.
Basically, the
>> staff group starts partway through a system, as we switch from
a solo
>> to a choral part. If necessary, another staff appears (filled with
>> rests as appropriate).
>>
>> I know it is possible to insert a [ bar manually (although I
cannot
>> quite figure out how to do this in a way that looks like a
staff group
>> across staffs). Since the staff grouping needs to continue in the
>> following systems, and since I don't want to manually break my
score,
>> I don't think that's a reasonable option either.
>>
>> The solution I have been trying to work out essentially involves
>> trying to having the systems all be part of the staff group,
but to
>> suppress the engraving of the staff group bracket where
appropriate
>> (or something like that?). Still, it's proven to be a bit too
>> intricate for me.
>>
>> Has anyone else done this? I know there are some of you who have
>> greater expertise, and I'm probably not the first person to at
least
>> try to include this element in a score.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Daniel
>
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> Too bad that I can't find the snippet again -- anyway, here is a
> remixed version of a hacky piece of code I once wrote for the
> French list:
>
> \version "2.22.1"
>
> #(define add-bracket
>    (grob-transformer 'stencil
>  (lambda (grob original)
>    (let* ((vag (ly:grob-object grob 'axis-group-parent-Y))
>   (elts (ly:grob-array->list
>   (ly:grob-object vag 'elements)))
>   (system-start-delim
>     (filter
>   (lambda (g)
>     (and (grob::has-interface g
> 'system-start-delimiter-interface)
>  (not (eq? 'SystemStartBar (grob::name
g)
>   elts)))
>  (if (eqv? 1 (length system-start-delim))
>  (ly:stencil-combine-at-edge
>    original
>    X
>    LEFT
>    (ly:grob-property (first system-start-delim)
>  'stencil)
>    (ly:grob-property grob 'padding))
>  (ly:warning "should have 1 delimiter, found ~a"
>  (length system-start-delim)))
>
> forceBar =
> \context Timing \applyContext
>   #(lambda (context)
>  (if (null? (ly:context-property context 'whichBar))
>  (set! (ly:context-property context 'whichBar)
>    "")))
>
> midStaffBracket = {
>   \forceBar
>   \once \overri

Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a non-grouped part (example attached)

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

Hmm, I'm still not sure I understand the difficulty.

If you have one system that starts out with a single voice, then mid-system
has two voices,
that just means that everything for that system would be in the 2-staff
staffgroup, but you'd have rests
in the staff that isn't active, for those measures, instead of spacers.

And the single-voice staff/staffgroup would be all spacers for that entire
system.

I see that it might be a bit more inconvenient to organize this way, since
you'd have to break up the single voice between sometimes being on the
single staff, and sometimes on one of the double staves.  But, on the scale
of things lilypond, that seems pretty straight forward.It does mean
that at some point, you'd have to commit to the system breaks, since if you
change those, you'd have to shuffle the content from one voice/staff to
another.  But choosing good system breaks is usually a manual affair
anyway, so that doesn' t seem like much of an extra burden.

It might be possible, even if you will not know the system breaks up front,
to make that task a bit easier using tags, so you could keep the entire
single voice in one variable, but combine it with tagged content so one
version of the voice has tags for the single staff, and the other has tags
for the double staff.


Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist ~ Educator
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 7:01 PM Daniel Benjamin Miller 
wrote:

> Hi Elaine,
>
> I already do this. But this is not sufficient for creating the effect
> necessary (as seen in the original example images). Frenching is perfectly
> sufficient so long as the staffs are never in the same system. But it does
> not enable the transition between the two to be done within a system as
> found in the old vocal scores. This is why it is necessary to do mid-system
> (i.e., usually, mid-measure) switches to the "group".
>
> Best,
> Daniel
> On 8/3/21 9:54 PM, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
>
>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: "D. B. Miller" 
>> To: Jean Abou Samra , LilyPond User Group <
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org>
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 19:45:07 + (UTC)
>> Subject: Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a non-grouped
>> part (example attached)
>> Thanks Jean. This is quite useful. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure how
>> to make it into the generalized solution I need. This works well if I
>> have a specific number of systems, and I know how many systems I will
>> need before turning on the grouping --- which causes problems if I don't
>> want to break manually (which I try to avoid if possible). Returning to
>> the solo also requires going to a new part with this. The mid-staff
>> bracket works well, though.
>>
>> Maybe this is just beyond LP's current capabilities, at least when it
>> comes to things you don't have to do manually. Maybe a better solution
>> could involve some sort of invisible staff (?) which is meant to overlap
>> with the solo staff, or something else quite out there. Preferably I
>> would like a way to turn the grouping's visibility on and off, but I
>> can't see a way to do this via overrides in the music.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Daniel
>>
>> Jul 30, 2021 17:36:37 Jean Abou Samra :
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Le 30/07/2021 à 14:46, Daniel Benjamin Miller a écrit :
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> I want to replicate this feature, often found in manually-engraved
>> >> vocal scores. Although the feature I am talking about should be
>> >> obvious from the images, I will attempt to describe it. Basically, the
>> >> staff group starts partway through a system, as we switch from a solo
>> >> to a choral part. If necessary, another staff appears (filled with
>> >> rests as appropriate).
>> >>
>> >> I know it is possible to insert a [ bar manually (although I cannot
>> >> quite figure out how to do this in a way that looks like a staff group
>> >> across staffs). Since the staff grouping needs to continue in the
>> >> following systems, and since I don't want to manually break my score,
>> >> I don't think that's a reasonable option either.
>> >>
>> >> The solution I have been trying to work out essentially involves
>> >> trying to having the systems all be part of the staff group, but to
>> >> suppress the engraving of the staff group bracket where appropriate
>> >> (or something like that?). Still, it's proven to be a bit too
>> >> intricate for me.
>> >>
>> >> Has anyone else done this? I know there are some of you who have
>> >> greater expertise, and I'm probably not the first person to at least
>> >> try to include this element in a score.
>> >>
>> >> All the best,
>> >> Daniel
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Daniel,
>> >
>> > Too bad that I can't find the snippet again -- anyway, here is a
>> > remixed version of a hacky piece of c

Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a non-grouped part (example attached)

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 8:09 PM Daniel Benjamin Miller 
wrote:

> Please re-read the original message if you don't understand what I mean.
> I've attached an example again. Basically, this is something often found in
> old, manually-set vocal scores. There is a solo (or there are solos), and
> at some point, the chorus enters. This may occur even in the middle of a
> measure. When there are solos, they are not in the group, because they are
> not part of the chorus. But what old vocal scores often do when a chorus
> enters during a measure but after the soloists have finished singing is add
> the staff group bracket *there*, then continue. This is what is very
> tricky using LilyPond. I know how to include multiple voices. The issue
> here is switching between gruped and ungrouped within the middle of a
> particular system a number of times within a piece
>
> Right now, if I do this, I can french the staffs fine enough, so long as I
> am OK with manually breaking (by switching the staffs of the particular
> parts as appropriate and/or including the parts as necessary in the system
> which is mixed in this way). But I would like it so that I do not have to
> manually break to switch from the mixed system to a new system which has
> the staff group at the beginning. Basically, I a good solution for me would
> be to have some sort of command which, when inserted into the music, could
> somehow indicate to the part above whether or not the staff group bracket
> should be drawn for a line.
>
> Daniel
> On 8/3/21 10:57 PM, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
>
>
> Hmm, I'm still not sure I understand the difficulty.
>
> If you have one system that starts out with a single voice, then
> mid-system has two voices,
> that just means that everything for that system would be in the 2-staff
> staffgroup, but you'd have rests
> in the staff that isn't active, for those measures, instead of spacers.
>
> And the single-voice staff/staffgroup would be all spacers for that entire
> system.
>
> I see that it might be a bit more inconvenient to organize this way, since
> you'd have to break up the single voice between sometimes being on the
> single staff, and sometimes on one of the double staves.  But, on the scale
> of things lilypond, that seems pretty straight forward.It does mean
> that at some point, you'd have to commit to the system breaks, since if you
> change those, you'd have to shuffle the content from one voice/staff to
> another.  But choosing good system breaks is usually a manual affair
> anyway, so that doesn' t seem like much of an extra burden.
>
> It might be possible, even if you will not know the system breaks up
> front, to make that task a bit easier using tags, so you could keep the
> entire single voice in one variable, but combine it with tagged content so
> one version of the voice has tags for the single staff, and the other has
> tags for the double staff.
>
>
> Elaine Alt
> 415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
> highly underrated*"
> ela...@flaminghakama.com
> Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist ~ Educator
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 7:01 PM Daniel Benjamin Miller <
> dbmil...@dbmiller.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Elaine,
>>
>> I already do this. But this is not sufficient for creating the effect
>> necessary (as seen in the original example images). Frenching is perfectly
>> sufficient so long as the staffs are never in the same system. But it does
>> not enable the transition between the two to be done within a system as
>> found in the old vocal scores. This is why it is necessary to do mid-system
>> (i.e., usually, mid-measure) switches to the "group".
>>
>> Best,
>> Daniel
>> On 8/3/21 9:54 PM, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>>> From: "D. B. Miller" 
>>> To: Jean Abou Samra , LilyPond User Group <
>>> lilypond-user@gnu.org>
>>> Cc:
>>> Bcc:
>>> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 19:45:07 + (UTC)
>>> Subject: Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a
>>> non-grouped part (example attached)
>>> Thanks Jean. This is quite useful. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure how
>>> to make it into the generalized solution I need. This works well if I
>>> have a specific number of systems, and I know how many systems I will
>>> need before turning on the grouping --- which causes problems if I don't
>>> want to break manually (which I try to avoid if possible). Returning to
>>> the solo also requires going to a new part with this. The mid-staff
>>> bracket works well, though.
>>>
>>> Maybe this is just beyond LP's current capabilities, at least when it
>>> comes to things you don't have to do manually. Maybe a better solution
>>> could involve some sort of invisible staff (?) which is meant to overlap
>>> with the solo staff, or something else quite out there. Preferably I
>>> would like a way to turn the grouping's vis

Re: How do I do a transition between a grouped and a non-grouped part (example attached)

[D. B. Miller]

Thanks, Elaine.

Jean pointed out how to print the brace in the middle of a system before 
in his reply. My issue now is with how continuation will work. I know how 
to do it, so long as I do not mind manually breaking to get to the next 
system after the brace, but I would prefer to avoid this (if possible), 
and that's the problem to which I'm looking for a creative solution.



All the best
Daniel

Aug 4, 2021 00:28:57 Flaming Hakama by Elaine :





On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 8:09 PM Daniel Benjamin Miller 
 wrote:


Please re-read the original message if you don't understand what I 
mean. I've attached an example again. Basically, this is something 
often found in old, manually-set vocal scores. There is a solo (or 
there are solos), and at some point, the chorus enters. This may occur 
even in the middle of a measure. When there are solos, they are not in 
the group, because they are not part of the chorus. But what old vocal 
scores often do when a chorus enters during a measure but after the 
soloists have finished singing is add the staff group bracket /there/, 
then continue. This is what is very tricky using LilyPond. I know how 
to include multiple voices. The issue here is switching between gruped 
and ungrouped within the middle of a particular system a number of 
times within a piece


Right now, if I do this, I can french the staffs fine enough, so long 
as I am OK with manually breaking (by switching the staffs of the 
particular parts as appropriate and/or including the parts as 
necessary in the system which is mixed in this way). But I would like 
it so that I do not have to manually break to switch from the mixed 
system to a new system which has the staff group at the beginning. 
Basically, I a good solution for me would be to have some sort of 
command which, when inserted into the music, could somehow indicate to 
the part above whether or not the staff group bracket should be drawn 
for a line.


Daniel

On 8/3/21 10:57 PM, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:

Hmm, I'm still not sure I understand the difficulty.

If you have one system that starts out with a single voice, then 
mid-system has two voices,
that just means that everything for that system would be in the 
2-staff staffgroup, but you'd have rests 
in the staff that isn't active, for those measures, instead of 
spacers.


And the single-voice staff/staffgroup would be all spacers for that 
entire system.


I see that it might be a bit more inconvenient to organize this way, 
since you'd have to break up the single voice between sometimes being 
on the single staff, and sometimes on one of the double staves.  But, 
on the scale of things lilypond, that seems pretty straight forward.  
  It does mean that at some point, you'd have to commit to the system 
breaks, since if you change those, you'd have to shuffle the content 
from one voice/staff to another.  But choosing good system breaks is 
usually a manual affair anyway, so that doesn' t seem like much of an 
extra burden.


It might be possible, even if you will not know the system breaks up 
front, to make that task a bit easier using tags, so you could keep 
the entire single voice in one variable, but combine it with tagged 
content so one version of the voice has tags for the single staff, and 
the other has tags for the double staff.



Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954           "/Confusion 
is highly underrated/"

ela...@flaminghakama.com
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist ~ Educator

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 7:01 PM Daniel Benjamin Miller 
 wrote:


Hi Elaine,

I already do this. But this is not sufficient for creating the effect 
necessary (as seen in the original example images). Frenching is 
perfectly sufficient so long as the staffs are never in the same 
system. But it does not enable the transition between the two to be 
done within a system as found in the old vocal scores. This is why it 
is necessary to do mid-system (i.e., usually, mid-measure) switches 
to the "group".


Best,
Daniel

On 8/3/21 9:54 PM, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:




…



I''m not sure if you've explored this, but to me it sounds like you 
should rather use frenched scores.


Which is to say, you will have 2 concurrent entities:
* A single staff (or a staffgroup with one staff), 
* A staffgroup with 2 staves

When you want only the single staff, ensure that the staves in the 
2nd staffgroup are empty (contain only spacers)


When you want the double staff, ensure that the first staff is empty 
(contains only spacers)


Then to get the frenched score, which will omit staves that are 
empty, set \Staff \RemoveEmptyStaves in the \layout block.


If you can't get your line breaks exactly when you switch to/from 
single to double staves, 
you might need to have rests in those measures of the unused 
staff/staves that appear, instead of spacers.



HTH,

Elaine Alt
415