Re: User Experience Engineering

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Ian Hawthorn writes:

> The biggest improvement to initial usability on the windows platform
> would be quite simple. If lilypond is invoked without arguments (i.e.
> by clicking the icon on the desktop) do something ... anything ... at
> minimum display some documentation as to usage.  Else ...
> 

What do you mean?  Does double clicking on the icon not bring up
notepad with instructions?

Jan.

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | GNU LilyPond - The music typesetter
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jantien   | http://www.lilypond.org


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Re: User Experience Engineering > Tutorials

[Riccardo Cohen]

I totally agree. On one hand I thank all the 10 years team for developping such a good 
software including installation, on the other hand I am a bit lost with the syntax.


Look that I'm a programmer since about 25 years, and I found quite difficult to learn 
lilypond syntax (I must be a very bad programmer ! and anyway not familiar with 
lisp/prolog like syntaxes).


I looked carefully at the tutorial and guide, and found them very good. It covers half of 
the important things to know, which is quite normal for a tutorial. But the other half was 
very difficult to find :


For instance, It took me a long time reading to find how to make a score with first 1 
instrument, and after 10 bars add a new instrument. Why sometimes I need "\score" and 
sometimes it works without. Also I could not declare variables in the middle of a score or 
between 2 staves, I had to put them all at the beginning before "\score" which is a 
problem. I have problem also with sound level in midi output (chords are too lound and I 
do not hear instruments)...


This mail is not to ask solutions for these problems, but if there is a good soul that 
maintain the doc, these are suggestions.

Thanks




Mats Bengtsson wrote:

I'm afraid that the biggest obstacle to get started with
LilyPond is not the installation but learning to master the
input syntax and semantics. Unfortunately, there are still
many aspects of input syntax and semantics that reflect
the way the program works internally, which may be far
from intuitive if you think in terms of music typesetting
rather than computer science.
Certainly, installation issues are important and it's well-
known that most program packages have far more bugs
in the installation procedures than in the main programs,
but in the case of LilyPond, I think you miss the point, in
terms of major usability thresholds, if you focus too much
on installation issues. Note also that the Windows installers
didn't exist half a year ago, whereas the program has existed
for almost 10 years, so I expect major improvements in the
coming months.

  /Mats

Linda Seltzer wrote:

User Experience engineering does not require a GUI or an abandonment 
of the
programming and typesetting approach.  It does not require the 
abandonment

of providing detailed features.  What it requires is that the language
and documentation are clear and that functionality doesn't require time-
consuming work arounds.  For example, if one is running on a Windows
environment, one should not have to install another editor and worry 
about
getting that to work, and the outputs should be easily usable and 
readable

by other programs without having to install other kinds of programs and
accessories.  It means that everything is made simple and clear for the
user.  There are users, unlike myself, who have never done any
programming.  Simplicity and clarity are as important as providing 
desired

features.  I am saying this as someone whose software has been
incorporated into the Sprint network operations system, the AT&T network,
the Silicon Graphics workstations, the Coast Guard communications system
and other products.  I have seen development projects sink and swim, 
and I
am merely discussing what will "swim" if it is to become highly 
profitable

at some point.  If I were saying this at a profit-oriented company no one
would disagree, let alone generate a flame war.  I have seen 
multi-million

projects go down the drain because the management didn't pay attention to
issues such as marketing or the user experience.



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--
Riccardo Cohen

Articque
Les Roches
37230 Fondettes
France
web = http://www.articque.com
tel: +33 02 47 49 90 49
fax: +33 02 47 49 91 49


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Re: User Experience Engineering

[Aurèle Duda]

Perhaps something like a tkinter little gui with some useful options to
control output format (pdf,ps), a field for input file and a __link to
the documentation__ ? (and an OK button, of course ;-)
Not a gui to control every aspects of lilypond output, but a window
which give to the first-time user a little help to understand what
lilypond request ?

Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:

>Ian Hawthorn writes:
>
>  
>
>>The biggest improvement to initial usability on the windows platform
>>would be quite simple. If lilypond is invoked without arguments (i.e.
>>by clicking the icon on the desktop) do something ... anything ... at
>>minimum display some documentation as to usage.  Else ...
>>
>>
>>
>
>What do you mean?  Does double clicking on the icon not bring up
>notepad with instructions?
>
>Jan.
>
>  
>


-- 
Aurèle Duda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Origami artworks / Créations en origami :
http://aureleduda.free.fr



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Re: Syntactic synonyms, or no?

[Erik Sandberg]

On Friday 30 December 2005 12.13, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> Trevor Bača wrote:
> > Is ...
> >
> >   \new Score {
> > - music -
> > \layout {
> >   \context {
> > \Score
> > \override Foo #'bar = #value
> >   }
> > }
> >   }
> >
> > ... exactly equivalent to ...
> >
> >   \new Score \with {
> > \override Foo #'bar = #value
> >   }  {
> > - music -
> >   }
>
> yes.
>
> > ... or is there a reason to prefer one to the other?
>
> it saves on typing if you have many \scores

Also, there are some limitations with the \with construct (for example, 
\consists and \remove commands are ignored IIRC)

-- 
Erik


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PDF size in 2.7.27

[Thomas Scharkowski]

Hello list,

I have noticed that the size of the pdfs produced by lily 2.7.27 on 
(windows xp) is much bigger than in previous versions.
I have tested the same file unchanged with 

2.7.18 Win  > 44 KB
2.7.23 Win > 44 KB
2.7.27 Win > 1.220 KB

Perhaps there is something wrong? The output looks the same.
For me it looks like a problem with the embedding of fonts. In the 
2.7.27 pdf the font list shows each of the CenturySchl types Roma, 
Ital, Bold, several times.
Bold 6x
Ital 10x
Roman more than 30 times!

If there is any interest I could send the pdf and the ly-files.

Thomas


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RE: Three Questions

[Nahum Wengrov]

-Original Message-
From: Mats Bengtsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 21:40
To: Nahum Wengrov
Cc: 'Lilypond Mailing List'
Subject: Re: Three Questions

Mats Bengtsson Wrote:
>Please always tell what LilyPond version you are using, to
>be sure to get relevant answers.

I'm using 2.6.5.

>>I have three questions.
>>
>>1) Can I hide, from the pdf output, the time signature at the beginning 
>>of a score? (I've done the 2nd line of notes as a separate score, 
>>because it has an additional Voice & Lyrics staff not existing in the 
>>the 1st line.) Alternatively, can I have the 1st line of notes in a 
>>score having only Piano staves, and the following lines with an 
>>additional Voice & Lyrics staff, in the same score?
>  
>Read Section "8.3.2 Hiding staves" and don't forget about
>the remove-first option. Lyrics work this way by default.

Thanks, I already got an answer here to this question. I used " \context {
\Staff \remove Time_signature_engraver }" in my \layout statement.

>>2) How can I add parentheses around notes? (Look at the scanned image 
>>-- link below -- to see what I mean. It's the two connected 16ths at 
>>the end of the 2nd line, the 1st one with lyrics.)
  
>Well, sort of. See the example called "stencil-hacking.ly" in the 
>Regression Test document. If you search the mailing list archives, 
>you may find more information.

Where can I find the Regression Test Document, and the Mailing List
Archives?

>>3) How do I coax Lilypond into displaying the extra word "There" at the 
>>end of the 2nd (middle) Lyrics line of that same music line? The Voice 
>>staff has a polyphony, i.e. an 8th rest on top and two connected 16ths 
>>beneath.
>  
>You mean that you want two syllables to be associated with
>a single note. Just write them within double quotes, "two words" 
>or exploit the fact that an underscore is treated as a space: two_words.

No, I don't mean that. I want the last note to be assosiated with a rest,
that has notes beneath it in polyphony.

>>You can look at a scanned image of the Original Score at 
>>http://www.pgdp.net/c/tools/project_manager/displayimage.php?project=pr
>>oject ID432e074b4d781&imagefile=066.png.
>>
>>You can look at the part of it I so far managed to put into .ly at 
>>http://www.pgdp.net/c/tools/project_manager/downloadproofed.php?project
>>=proj ectID432e074b4d781&image=066.png&round_num=3 
>
>It seems that some kind of ID and password is necessary.

Oops. Sorry about that. I'll be posting both the .png and the .ly files to
my website then.



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Re: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 38, Issue 17

[Erik Sandberg]

On Friday 06 January 2006 02.22, Linda Seltzer wrote:
> User Experience engineering does not require a GUI or an abandonment of the
> programming and typesetting approach.  It does not require the abandonment
> of providing detailed features.  What it requires is that the language
> and documentation are clear and that functionality doesn't require time-
> consuming work arounds.  For example, if one is running on a Windows
> environment, one should not have to install another editor and worry about
> getting that to work, and the outputs should be easily usable and readable
> by other programs without having to install other kinds of programs and
> accessories.  

As far as I can remember, the problem you first reported was that the Windows 
application Notepad automatically adds a .txt extension to the output file 
name, and that windows's file manager doesn't show this extension. This is a 
confusing behaviour of Microsoft's software, which makes it unsuitable for 
use by newbies (however, I think an expert in Notepad can set the file name 
extension fairly easily). This is a problem with Microsoft's software, which 
you can report to them if you like (I know no other text editors which do the 
same thing, so it should be considered a bug IMHO).

Lilypond doesn't ship with an editor on the Windows platform. The probably 
best suited program for editing lilypond files under windows is jedit, and it 
has been estimated that a lilypond+jedit installation package would be a >50 
MB download. Because of that huge size, there needs to be a lilypond-only 
installer as well.

It may be more user-friendly to ship a lilypond+jedit bundle installer for 
windows, but it should IMHO be done by a third part. (the lilypond developers 
shouldn't need to bother about which java versions that work best with which 
jedit versions, which versions of jedit plug-ins that are best suited for 
which lilypond versions, etc.) This installation package would probably 
rather be created as an extended jedit installer, than as an extended 
lilypond installer.

-- 
Erik


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Re: Syntactic synonyms, or no?

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Erik Sandberg wrote:


Also, there are some limitations with the \with construct (for example, 
\consists 


bugreport please.


--
 Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: Inputting special symbols

[Erik Sandberg]

On Tuesday 10 January 2006 05.15, liang seng wrote:
> Hi, I'm just wondering if we can use utf-8 to input Chinese (or other
> Asian) characters as well?

Yes, see input/sakura-sakura.ly

-- 
Erik


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Re: Syntactic synonyms, or no?

[Erik Sandberg]

On Wednesday 11 January 2006 14.20, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> Erik Sandberg wrote:
> > Also, there are some limitations with the \with construct (for example,
> > \consists
>
> bugreport please.

sorry, I remembered incorrectly (it is \accepts that doesn't work inside 
\with, see with-accepts.ly in bug CVS)

-- 
Erik


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Re: Inputting special symbols

[Erik Sandberg]

On Thursday 05 January 2006 12.25, Gilles wrote:
> Hello.
>
> > The problem I've had with that is that when I define
> >
> >  eaigu = ""
> >
> > and then (later) say
> >
> >  \markup "sym" \eaigu "trique"
> >
> > what I get in the PDF file is
> >
> >  sym é trique
> >
> > because Lilypond inserts a space between any two markup components.
>
> I noticed that too, and I'd tend to consider this as a bug.

no, it's the intended behaviour of markup.

It could be possible to write a markup function that concatenates markup 
words, something like \concatenate { "sym" \eaigu "trique" }. I think such a 
function would be fairly easy to write, but I don't know because I haven't 
looked at the code. It might be a sponsorable feature.

> And there is also the "reverse" behaviour:  Blank spaces at the
> beginning or end of double-quoted strings are trimmed.  

Sorry for not replying. I don't consider this a bug; that behaviour is 
intended.

-- 
Erik


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Re: Inputting special symbols

[Gilles]

Hi.

> > > because Lilypond inserts a space between any two markup components.
> >
> > I noticed that too, and I'd tend to consider this as a bug.
> 
> no, it's the intended behaviour of markup.
> 
> It could be possible to write a markup function that concatenates markup 
> words, something like \concatenate { "sym" \eaigu "trique" }. I think such a 
> function would be fairly easy to write, but I don't know because I haven't 
> looked at the code. It might be a sponsorable feature.

Wouldn't it be more logical to do that by default, instead of having
to call a function explicitely to remove something (space) which wasn't
there in the first place?

> 
> > And there is also the "reverse" behaviour:  Blank spaces at the
> > beginning or end of double-quoted strings are trimmed.  
> 
> Sorry for not replying. I don't consider this a bug; that behaviour is 
> intended.
> 

Then, maybe could you explain the rationale behind the intention?
I.e for outputting the opposite of the user's input:

 1. Add a space where there was none
 2. Remove a space where the user wants one


Thanks,
Gilles


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Re: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 38, Issue 17

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Erik Sandberg wrote:
Lilypond doesn't ship with an editor on the Windows platform. The probably 


it actually does. It's called lilypad. It's comparable to notepad, 
functionality-wise.


--
 Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: feature request: semi-automatic vertical spacement

[Trevor Bača]

On 1/10/06, Han-Wen Nienhuys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nicolas Sceaux wrote:
> > Han-Wen,
> >
> > It turns out that manually setting vertical spacement tweak is
> > way too fragile. They are easily broken when changing LilyPond version
> > for instance. Or if one set manually all tweaks, and then is told:
> > "could you make margins a bit larger, or use another font size", then
> > the whole work has to be done again. and again.
> >
> > When you made the vertical spacement tweaks possible, you added that it
> > could be possible as an extra feature to output a tweak file that could
> > be included later, for a second lilypond run.
> >
> > Please tell me how much the following would cost, if possible:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> here is an overview of what needs to be done for this:
>
>
> * Refactoring layout-page-layout.scm so there is a page structure,
>where we can can easily access, information such free space on a
>page.
>
> * Adding a routine to walk each page, note the amount of free space,
>and divide that it over the system. The dividing should be done by a
>user-definable function.
>
>The pagebreak/linebreak/stretching is put into an alist, and stored
>with the system in a table
>
> * At the end of the loop, the contents of the table are dumped to a
>.ly file. The \objectid syntax can be used to mark each score with a
>tag,
>
>\book{ \objectid "foo"
>  \score {
>\objectid "bar"
>..
>  }
>}
>
>
>so the tweaks are dumped to bookfoo-scorebar-pagelayout.ly
>
> I will add the above for 195 EUR
>
> * For reading tweaks, just before processing each score, the music is
>subsitituted by
>
>  << [parse_file("bookfoo-scorebar-pagelayout.ly") if it exists]
> original_music
> >>
>
> I will add this for 65 EUR.
>
>
> Caveats
>
>   - there will be no tweaking for titling blocks, as they don't support
> any kind of \override.
>
>   - the tweaks.ly file will be as barebones as possible.

Hi Han-Wen & Nicolas,

With regards to ...

>The pagebreak/linebreak/stretching is put into an alist, and stored
>with the system in a table

... will it also be possible to set the *absolute* page position of
each staff (and therefore each system) on a page-by-page basis (by
means of some reference point, possibly the bottom staffline of each
staff)? Something like:

page 1:

  system 3:
 staff 2, bottom staffline: 29.92 cm from page-bottom
 staff 1, bottom staffline: 26.24 cm from page-bottom

  system 2:
 staff 3, bottom staffline: 23.92 cm from page-bottom
 staff 2, bottom staffline: 20.81 cm from page-bottom
 staff 1, bottom staffline: 16.00 cm from page-bottom

  system 1:
 staff 3, bottom staffline: 11.62 cm from page-bottom
 staff 2, bottom staffline: 7.92 cm from page-bottom
 staff 1, bottom staffline: 3.44 cm from page-bottom

< template page layout for next page here, etc >

Perhaps absolute positioning might not be the right way to go, but it
would certainly help me vertically fix staves exactly where I want
them on the page. If absolute positioning doesn't fit with the model,
then that's certainly ok; but if we can think of a good, lily-esque
way of adding absolute positioning during the proposed refactoring,
then I'd certainly be interested in helping fund the work.

(Or maybe this is already possible some other way and I just haven't
researched hard enough; if so, please ignore the request.)


--
Trevor Bača
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: lilypond 2.7.27-1 doesn't install and work

[Paul Scott]

Enrico Licini wrote:


Hi, I tryed to install lilypond-2.7.27-1.linux.sh but it doesn't work.
Opening the file with vim, I saw that there was an error in line 85: $lilydir 
-xzf should be $lilydir -xjf 


Another problem is in the file lilypond in ~/bin: the line should end with $*

But I am not able to solve the last problem: lilypond fails to generate the 
pdf file...


Is it possible to solve these problems?
 

Are you saying it doesn't install after making the above corrections or 
it installs but doesn't work correctly?


Paul Scott



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Re: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 38, Issue 17

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Han-Wen Nienhuys writes:

> it actually does. It's called lilypad. It's comparable to notepad,
> functionality-wise.

The idea was to extend it with a Run button or menu, but I ran out of
time when doing the first native windows port.  Now we have the
nicer lilypad on MacOS, and IWBN to have something like that
for all platforms, using pygtk or something.

Jan.

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | GNU LilyPond - The music typesetter
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jantien   | http://www.lilypond.org


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Re: Three Questions

[Gilles]

> 
> Where can I find the Regression Test Document, 

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.6/input/regression/collated-files.html

> and the Mailing List
> Archives?
> 

http://lilypond.org/web/documentation


Gilles


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Re: Inputting special symbols

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Gilles wrote:


Then, maybe could you explain the rationale behind the intention?
I.e for outputting the opposite of the user's input:

 1. Add a space where there was none


If you have a suggestion how to improve this, I will gladly take 
patches. The relevant code is in scm/markup.scm.




 2. Remove a space where the user wants one


I think this is Pango's doing.

--
 Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: feature request: semi-automatic vertical spacement

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Trevor Bača wrote:

  The pagebreak/linebreak/stretching is put into an alist, and stored
  with the system in a table


... will it also be possible to set the *absolute* page position of
each staff (and therefore each system) on a page-by-page basis (by
means of some reference point, possibly the bottom staffline of each
staff)? Something like:

page 1:

  system 3:
 staff 2, bottom staffline: 29.92 cm from page-bottom
 staff 1, bottom staffline: 26.24 cm from page-bottom




Perhaps absolute positioning might not be the right way to go, but it
would certainly help me vertically fix staves exactly where I want
them on the page. If absolute positioning doesn't fit with the model,
then that's certainly ok; but if we can think of a good, lily-esque
way of adding absolute positioning during the proposed refactoring,
then I'd certainly be interested in helping fund the work.

>

(Or maybe this is already possible some other way and I just haven't
researched hard enough; if so, please ignore the request.)


Of course it's possible, you just have to write loads of Scheme code :-)

I can look into this. Shall I make a combined quote for refactoring the 
pagelayout to do both automatic stretching and absolute positioning?


Regards,

--
Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen

LilyPond Software Design
 -- Code for Music Notation
http://www.lilypond-design.com



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\sacredHarpHeads are not recognizable to Sacred Harp Singers

[Laura Conrad]

In Lilypond 2.6.6, \sacredHarpHeads is defined (in
ly/property-init.ly) as:

   \set shapeNoteStyles = ##(#f #f mi #f fa la #f)

This is really wierd.  The shapes aren't going to help anyone
sightread if *three* adjacent notes are going to have the same shape.  The
normal way a shape note singer sings a major scale is "fa so la fa so
la mi fa", which I believe translates to:

   \set shapeNoteStyles = ##(fa #f la fa #f la mi)

My friends who do this all the time tell me that the shapes are
relative to the key signature, not the key, so that a minor scale is
"la  mi fa so la fa sol la", which seems to translate in lily to:

\set shapeNoteStyles = ##( la mi fa #f la fa #f )

It's really nice that this is so configurable, but wouldn't it be even
better if the default were something usable?

I think it might also be good if there were a list of possible head
shapes somewhere that the page that describes shape notes

could point to.

-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (501) 641-5011
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139


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RE: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 38, Issue 17

[Nahum Wengrov]

-Original Message-
From: ... On Behalf Of Han-Wen Nienhuys
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 18:46
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Linda Seltzer; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 38, Issue 17

Erik Sandberg wrote:
> Lilypond doesn't ship with an editor on the Windows platform. The 
> probably

Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>it actually does. It's called lilypad. It's comparable to notepad, 
>functionality-wise.

In what version was Lilypad first included, and to what folder does it
install itself?



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RE: Three Questions

[Nahum Wengrov]

>>2) How can I add parentheses around notes? (Look at the scanned image
>>-- link below -- to see what I mean. It's the two connected 16ths at 
>>the end of the 2nd line, the 1st one with lyrics.)
  
>Well, sort of. See the example called "stencil-hacking.ly" in the
>Regression Test document. If you search the mailing list archives, 
>you may find more information.

I found the example file "stencil-hacking.ly," but can't read it. It seems
to have a "בּ" instead of a line break. How do I change a string to a line
break in Notepad?



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Re: feature request: semi-automatic vertical spacement

[Trevor Bača]

On 1/11/06, Han-Wen Nienhuys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Trevor Bača wrote:
> >>   The pagebreak/linebreak/stretching is put into an alist, and stored
> >>   with the system in a table
> >
> > ... will it also be possible to set the *absolute* page position of
> > each staff (and therefore each system) on a page-by-page basis (by
> > means of some reference point, possibly the bottom staffline of each
> > staff)? Something like:
> >
> > page 1:
> >
> >   system 3:
> >  staff 2, bottom staffline: 29.92 cm from page-bottom
> >  staff 1, bottom staffline: 26.24 cm from page-bottom
>
>
> > Perhaps absolute positioning might not be the right way to go, but it
> > would certainly help me vertically fix staves exactly where I want
> > them on the page. If absolute positioning doesn't fit with the model,
> > then that's certainly ok; but if we can think of a good, lily-esque
> > way of adding absolute positioning during the proposed refactoring,
> > then I'd certainly be interested in helping fund the work.
>  >
> > (Or maybe this is already possible some other way and I just haven't
> > researched hard enough; if so, please ignore the request.)
>
> Of course it's possible, you just have to write loads of Scheme code :-)
>
> I can look into this. Shall I make a combined quote for refactoring the
> pagelayout to do both automatic stretching and absolute positioning?

Yes, please. If the absolute adjustments wind up being considerably
more complicated than the relative (stretching) adjustments, then
maybe you can also quote separately so that Nicolas and I (and perhaps
others in the group) can help divide up the costs.



--
Trevor Bača
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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newbie:poor quality output

[debian]

Please,

I have just started using Lilypond (2.4.5) on a debian sarge system
and I am getting on reasonably well with the syntax.

But, the quality of my pdf files is very poor.  Notes and staff lines
etc look ugly.  Probably this is a font problem, but I do not know how
to proceed.

Thanks

Joe


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Parenthese (was: RE: Three Questions)

[Nahum Wengrov]

>>2) How can I add parentheses around notes? (Look at the scanned image
>>-- link below -- to see what I mean. It's the two connected 16ths at
>>the end of the 2nd line, the 1st one with lyrics.)
  
>Well, sort of. See the example called "stencil-hacking.ly" in the 
>Regression Test document. If you search the mailing list archives, you 
>may find more information.

I copied & pasted all the code marked as "ly snippet" in the example to a
new .ly file, but the .pdf output still has no parentheses. Should I have
copied the first section to some other file?



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