Re: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 38, Issue 17
Hans Forbrich wrote: > I see value in the discussion, but also a serious distraction for the > primary developers. Is it worth taking this offline? Graham Percival wrote: > You want to have an offline private email discussion group? Count me > in! :) "Offline" ? If this means turning off my computer and muttering to myself, count me in too. I love it. -- Tom ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 38, Issue 17
> My input *is* informative and is based on years of professional > experience and expertise. Linda, we believe you. > I would also state that development efforts are helped tremendously > if a specialist in user interface design evaluates development every > step of the way. The most successful development projects in > industry are tested for months by user experience or marketing > organizations. This is reasonable, of course. Can you help here? We don't have an expert for those issues. But please bear in mind that lilypond itself is a command line tool and never will be something else. This follows the UNIX tradition (which is far older than the Windows one -- and which is still alive). > There shouldn't be so much aversion to feedback and comments. I'm > not interested in being a cheerleader or a yes-man. You are completely misinterpreting the answers. Noone is arguing that you present valid critique, but praising Windows and Windows programs which are known for notorious bugs, and which aren't really usable for serious projects larger than a few pages -- just think of index generation and footnote handling -- isn't really helpful. The most valuable help you can give, I believe, is in improving the manual and tuturial since users must read it before they can do anything with lilypond. Werner ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Ubuntu Problem
S. L. Raymond writes: > Any Debian/Ubuntu gurus care to tell me what steps to take to manually > upgrade? You can install a 2.6 autpackage, or replace breezy with dapper in /etc/apt/sources.list and see what happens. IWBN to have a success report on that. Jan. -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | GNU LilyPond - The music typesetter http://www.xs4all.nl/~jantien | http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
A question about that : is it possible to make a program that links with lilypond ? , in that case, it it quite easy for me to make a GUI with an editor, a "build" button and a pdf launcher (on mac&win&linux with wxWidgets). I do not like to launch external programs, but if there is no lilypond library, I can also make it through an "execute" (which is a bit more difficult). Gilles wrote: Hello. I would greatly encourage the project to focus on the user interface and the user experience if this is to catch on in a large way. Having to install separate editors (and who knows what bugs that will bring and what other mailing lists one will have to subscribe to...) or get into the system with DOS commands, and to understand what is wrong if the flags are wrong, etc. does not constitute user interface engineering. A smooth user interface employing the standard already-debugged platforms, such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, is more important than more and more detailed features, which can be added later. Every 10 minues spent system administrating and installing things is 10 minutes that real work doesn't get accomplished. User experience engineering is just as important as other areas of software development. Well, that would usually be enough to start a flame war ;-) [Especially, that part about "Windows" and "bug free"...] Please note that LilyPond is not about (graphical) user interface, but about music engraving. The LilyPond interface with the user is the text file describing the music to be typeset. Other projects (e.g. editors and GUI) propose tools which you can choose from in order to fulfill particular wishes (not needs!). Best, Gilles ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- Riccardo Cohen Articque Les Roches 37230 Fondettes France web = http://www.articque.com tel: +33 02 47 49 90 49 fax: +33 02 47 49 91 49 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Riccardo Cohen wrote: A question about that : is it possible to make a program that links with lilypond ? , in that case, it it quite easy for me to make a GUI with an editor, a "build" button and a pdf launcher (on mac&win&linux with wxWidgets). I do not like to launch external programs, but if there is no lilypond library, I can also make it through an "execute" (which is a bit more difficult). Since Linux and Mac (through FreeBSD) are essentially command line based you can do whatever you want with scripts (to launch Lily or a PDF viewer) which can be called in many ways. In MS Windows you may need Cygwin or something. Paul Scott ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Positioning of tremolo marks
Hi, I'm using the Win98 version of Lilypond 2.7.27. I have some questions
regarding the tweaking of tremolo marks.
1. How do I move the vertical position of the tremolo mark? Specifically, I
would like to move the mark a little closer to the beam. I think it is
controlled by StemTremolo and the property is Y-extent. I just don't know
how to input the syntax. An example of the work is like this:
\version "2.7.27"
\relative
{ c8:16 c: c: c: }
2. Is it possible to make the tremolo marks slanted, as in the example in
the manual?
Thank you.
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Re: Your query about diagram of a .ly file
If you use templates you really should make them as templates for jEdit-LilyPondTool's Document Setup Wizard template. This feature is quite well documented I think. That way you can have your templates automatically set up for time/key etc. Then, you can contribute your templates to LilyPondTool. Bert Polifónikus- és Realisztikus csengőhangok! Keresd meg a kedvenced! http://www.sztarsms.hu ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A simple diagram of a .ly file?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Hi Ray! And a happy new year to you too!
I found a similar problem with understanding when and how tweaking
properties can be used, so I know what you mean. I've got no excuse:
the manual even tells you what to look up, how and in which order, but
it is one of those that you read, think "Yeah, I understand that", then
find yourself unable to actually do any of it! A bit like doing
Schenkerian analysis really. It's really easy if you know the answer
before you start :) Lilypond is a salutary experience and has made me a
lot more tolerant of some of my first-year C programming students!
I don't know if this is just because the problem of music layout is
inherently complex. Maybe. Or perhaps I'm just getting old.
One thing about syntax and layout: I do find the lilypond mode for
emacs rather useful. If I'm thinking about higher things, I'm still
sufficiently inexperienced to write c2' instead of c'2, and the syntax
colouring of emacs immediately points up the error. I use Debian
Gnu/Linux so I just installed it from the repository. I don't know
about its availability for other platforms, or if similar capabilities
exist for other portable editors (jedit and kate are popular around
here). But it might be worth looking into. It might not be so good at
helping with global structure though.
I hope you carry on with Lilypond. It seems to me like using LaTeX.
Dreadfully over-complicated at first, but with familiarisation comes
the feeling of amazement that you could ever have put up with what you
were using before, and astonishment that you ever found it hard to use.
Nick/.
http://cmt.gla.ac.uk
On 5 Jan 2006, at 4:54 am, Ray wrote:
First off, I think Lilypond is amazing and I had very few problems
installing
it or using it, despite a relatively limited musical knowledge. I'm an
amateur songwriter with no ambitions of ever going pro but wanted to
print out
my music as a gift for my mom at Christmas. We're talking very simple
stuff:
a melody, lyrics, and the markup guitar chords at (approximately) the
right
time.
Through the tutorial I quickly gained fluency in the make up of an .ly
file,
but I found that as the file got larger it got harder and harder to
keep track
of. Furthermore, when any kind of bug appeared it was almost
impossible to
sleuth out...as there is almost no documentation (that I could find,
anyway)
dealing with the syntax or _general_ form of a .ly document. I don't
see this
as a failing per se, but perhaps it might be something that folks
could push
for as time permits? Alternatively, additional templates might be
nice, ones
that address non-classical music forms.
In my case, I found it hard not to compare Lilypond to HTML...they
both seem
essentially like markup languages and they both have "header" files.
Getting
the hang of Lilypond _should_ be relatively easy. But having a visual
sense
of the .ly "body" is much, much harder. In the example files it's
hard to
discern what are the variables and what are the Lilypond syntax codes
(color
coding the examples would be a great boon for anyone trying to figure
them
out). And there doesn't seem to be any kind of simple discussion
about how
to organize a file, such as:
"A .ly file has 3 basic parts. The header, the body, and the score.
In the
header, info about the piece is given (composer, title, etc.) as well
as any
other useful info the program may need but which doesn't relate to the
notes
themselves. The body is where the notes and the lyrics are set down.
The
score is where the "printing" (whether to paper or MIDI) is done.
Variables
are written in the 'body' part and then used later as part of the
score."
I'm not even sure I'm right about what I've just written, actually,
but it's
what I'm gleaning from the current examples, most of which are fine for
explaining the particular microscopic issue but which don't place it
in a
macroscopic context. After about 2 weeks of solid sleuthing and head
scratching, I am still having a heck of a time getting my .ly file to
print
a pdf and a MIDI file at the same time, and I haven't had any luck in
using
the "score" section. I can get a nice pdf if I comment out my score
part,
but then it won't play MIDI. I also have had a heck of a time with
getting
my lyrics to match the right notes. I tried using the "\lyrics" line
but
couldn't get the syntax to work.
Also, what the tutorial needs is some kind of sense of how these
smaller
pieces fit into a larger whole. It's easy enough to see that "{a2 b1
c4is
(d8 e16)}" will write appropriate notes. It's much harder to know
what's
going wrong when they _don't_ appear that way as part of a larger song.
Please don't take this as a vent or that I'm upset---I'm not: I could
never
write music like this without Lilypond and really want to become more
fluent
in writing it so that it doesn't take me so long to write songs down.
If
Re: User Experience Engineering
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 5 Jan 2006, at 9:31 pm, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote: Keep in mind that every 10 minutes we save you on doing system administration, typically takes us 8 hours of debugging, fiddling with cross-compilers and testing. Add to that that Windows by far is our least favorite platform: I'll go on record saying that the entire development team actually loathes and despises Windows. Hear hear! (not that I'm on the development team, I hasten to add) If you have to use Windows, Linda, and you really don't since you could install Linux over the top of it on almost any Windows-compatible hardware you actually control, the best thing to do is to not to use any Microsoft applications if you can avoid it. Install new web browsers, editors, everything. I speak from bitter and current experience as I'm trying to write a web site with css that actually works on Internet Explorer: it flagrantly mis-implements the web standards and provides Microsoft-only "specials" to "fix" them. The Scilab experience is instructive in this case. They spent ages making a Windows version, then when it eventually just about started to work, all they got from the Windows community was complaints about missing functionality (and in contrast to the other communities, no contributed code, in spite of the allegedly large user-base). Caltech alumni especially should be aware of this. Tut tut. :) Nick/. http://cmt.gla.ac.uk If you're concerned about user-experience, I recommend you to choose between any of the following options - switch over to MacOS - sponsor the development team for Windows usability work - volunteer time to help engineer the Windows release Regards, -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDvkToFo+kGmUnzkQRArQwAJ4ppjXK+pZoAAOdfbnFmBcnLk69UQCfTlfR SXL+RrfbK16PyhurLNRtlo4= =AbtF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Am 2006-01-06 um 09:43 schrieb Riccardo Cohen: A question about that : is it possible to make a program that links with lilypond ? , in that case, it it quite easy for me to make a GUI with an editor, a "build" button and a pdf launcher (on mac&win&linux with wxWidgets). I do not like to launch external programs, but if there is no lilypond library, I can also make it through an "execute" (which is a bit more difficult). There's already LilyPad for MacOS X (http://edbaskerville.com/ software/lilypad/), LilyPond's own simple GUI (at least on MacOS X) and jEdit's LilyPond mode (http://lily4jedit.sourceforge.net/). And as a GUI tool there's at least RoseGarden on Linux (http:// www.rosegardenmusic.com/), that can export LilyPond code. Some other GUI tools might be able to export MusicXML that could be converted to LilyPond code (never tried that myself), or you could go via MIDI (but the midi2ly code is rather ugly). As Paul Scott wrote, in a UNIXy OS you would call LilyPond via the shell, on Windows you might be able to access the executable via COM. What language do you prefer? - Java: help updating & enhancing LilyTool4jEdit - Python: use lilylib (look at the Python scripts in LilyPond distribution) - Lisp: Why do you need a GUI? (Is there any GUI library for any Lisp?) ;-) Another remark about "User Experience": We are the users, our experience counts. And we users like our LilyPond experience! :-) Greetlings from Lake Constance --- fiëé visuëlle Henning Hraban Ramm http://www.fiee.net http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/ http://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Inputting special symbols
Hi.
>
> > And . . . also . . . : Blank spaces at the
> > beginning or end of double-quoted strings are trimmed.
>
> That's true. To get spaces between non-space \markup items you can write
> things like
>
> \markup { "foo" \hspace #10 "bar" }
>
Yes, I knew about the "\hspace" command, but I still find it strange that
blank space is *completely* trimmed. I agree that a typesetting program
should decide what's the best size for a blank space (and hence compress
several consecutive spaces into one, like TeX does) but not suppress them
altogether.
Best,
Gilles
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Re: User Experience Engineering
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 6 Jan 2006, at 10:57 am, fiëé visuëlle wrote: There's already LilyPad for MacOS X (http://edbaskerville.com/software/lilypad/), LilyPond's own simple GUI (at least on MacOS X) and jEdit's LilyPond mode (http://lily4jedit.sourceforge.net/). And as a GUI tool there's at least RoseGarden on Linux (http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/), that can export LilyPond code. Some other GUI tools might be able to export MusicXML that could be converted to LilyPond code (never tried that myself), or you could go via MIDI (but the midi2ly code is rather ugly). Don't forget Denemo (http://denemo.sourceforge.net/) which is maintained by Adam Tee and others. It's a WhatYouSeeAllYouWant thing, i.e. it's really ugly on screen until the you press the lilypond export button, then the output's beautiful as we'd all expect. Apparently, there's a DarwinPort of it. Also RPM, and of course a debian package. No Windows port AFAIK, at last since v0.5 and the sound didn't work on that. I'll stick to emacs myself, but some folk might like it :) Nick/. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDvmyNFo+kGmUnzkQRAs1xAKCN2CS3SQGZTyXrhR7oGK/Eh+TB9QCgha3q uLwWFY8s74uS5BlTKoR7lXk= =3Qfn -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Ubuntu Problem
Hi, LilyPond 2.6 is available on the backports repository. Add this line in your /etc/apt/sources.list file: deb http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu breezy-backports main restricted universe multiverse There's a non-solved-but-known-bug on the lily package. You need to install tetex-bin to avoid troubles. Gauvain S L Raymond wrote: >I'm running version 2.2 in Ubuntu Breezy Badger, and Synaptic tells me >2.2 is the latest, when it's clear that 2.6 is the current stable. > >Any Debian/Ubuntu gurus care to tell me what steps to take to manually >upgrade? I'm stuck with a version that still notates maj7 chords as "M" >chords, so I need to get out of 2.2 as quickly as possible (I've got >deadlines). > >Thanks in advance. > > >___ >lilypond-user mailing list >lilypond-user@gnu.org >http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user > > > ___ Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: LilyPond localization
Alexander Pankov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I've translated lilypond tutorial into Russian, how can I commit it? I think the best bet is to send and gziped patch Pedro ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Positioning of tremolo marks
On 6-Jan-06, at 1:34 AM, liang seng wrote: 2. Is it possible to make the tremolo marks slanted, as in the example in the manual? By clicking on an example in the manual, you should see the lilypond code used to generate it. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: A simple diagram of a .ly file?
On 4-Jan-06, at 8:54 PM, Ray wrote:
Furthermore, when any kind of bug appeared it was almost impossible to
sleuth out...as there is almost no documentation (that I could find,
anyway)
dealing with the syntax or _general_ form of a .ly document. I don't
see this
as a failing per se, but perhaps it might be something that folks
could push
for as time permits? Alternatively, additional templates might be
nice, ones
that address non-classical music forms.
Did you read "chapter 4: putting it all together"? Section 4.2 is
specifically aimed at solving this issue... this is an honest question,
not a rhetorical one. If section 4.2 wasn't understandable, I should
work on that. If you didn't notice 4.2, then I should work on
improving its visibility (say, by having a link to it from within the
tutorial).
In the example files it's hard to
discern what are the variables and what are the Lilypond syntax codes
(color
coding the examples would be a great boon for anyone trying to figure
them
out).
Color coding is a feature of editors. I know that emacs and vim do
syntax highlighting; I'm pretty sure that jedit uses it as well.
And there doesn't seem to be any kind of simple discussion about how
to organize a file, such as:
"A .ly file has 3 basic parts. The header, the body, and the score.
In the
header, info about the piece is given (composer, title, etc.) as well
as any
other useful info the program may need but which doesn't relate to the
notes
themselves. The body is where the notes and the lyrics are set down.
The
score is where the "printing" (whether to paper or MIDI) is done.
Variables
are written in the 'body' part and then used later as part of the
score."
Most people have said that since the lilypond syntax is so flexible, it
doesn't make sense to include such information; I take the opposite
view. We need to have _some_ discussion about the general syntax -- in
the tutorial section -- since so many people are confused by this.
There's a technical description of the syntax in 5.8, but we should
cover some of that material in the tutorial.
I've bumped this higher on my list of stuff to do.
If I can help in providing some new documentation along these lines
please let me
know.
Of course you can help! See
http://lilypond.org/web/devel/participating/documentation-adding
Just remember to be as specific as possible. "there isn't enough docs
about guitars" isn't very helpful; saying "a lot of guitar music uses
BLAH; it would help those users if you added blah blah foo to the
manual and included an example like { \blah \blah \foo }" is
_extremely_ helpful.
1. An annotated deconstruction of a well known song (melody and
vocals).
Preferably several---a classic rock piece, a classical piece, and a
more
complex piece would work nicely.
That's been proposed, and one or two people have offered to do so, but
I haven't seen them yet. There's room for them in chapter 4, but I'd
prefer short pieces (or portions of pieces). And by "short", I mean
about eight or sixteen bars (depending on the complexity of the piece).
If the example is longer than that, people will be less likely to read
the whole thing carefully... besides, the shorter the example, the less
work you need to do in writing the annotations. :)
3. A dictionary of syntax codes, linked (again) directly to larger
examples
so that we can see how they work. Saying "\score { . . . } doesn't
really
help us if what's inside the brackets is a multi-nested set of
commands.
It's been proposed... there's an index, and we may soon have a "command
index", with links to the manual. As for larger (presumably annotated)
examples... I'm not certain about that.
There's basically two sides to basic lilypond use: knowing what certain
commands do (say, looking up \repeat to figure out that you want
\repeat volta 2 (... or is that \repeat 2 volta ? :)), and knowing how
to fit them together. Putting them together is a general input file
thing, and should be discussed on its own.
5. Much more detailed syntax debugging, with a list of what the error
codes
mean.
That would be a big technical undertaking, which I can't see happening
in the near future.
6. Perhaps, some clearer discussion about how to best _organize_ a
song so
that as one writes, changes lyrics, switches notes around, the piece
needs as
little rewriting as possible.
4.1 attempts to address this... again, did you notice it, or was it
lacking?
7. The MIDI info seems quite thin.
If you know any more info about MIDI, please let me know. :)
There are three categories of problems with the docs:
1. Stuff I'm aware of, and is on my list of things to fix.
2. Stuff I'm not aware of, but can either fix or put on my list of
things to fix.
3. Stuff I may or may not be aware of, but am not able to fix due to
my lack of knowledge. MIDI certainly qualifies for this, as does
everything in chapter 7.
Che
Re: Ubuntu Problem
Hi, I'm also using Ubuntu Breezy, but I'm using the x86_64 version, which tends to make things trickier to install (for example, I had considerable difficulty getting the autopackages to work). I don't recommend replacing "breezy" with "dapper", as Jan suggested. That is very much a "developer-only" system, and you can expect breakage, particularly since it is early in the 6-month release cycle. Instead, I recommend you enable the offical Ubuntu backports. Add the lines: deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu breezy-backports main restricted universe multiverse deb http://ubuntu-backports.mirrormax.net/ breezy-extras main restricted universe multiverse to the end of your /etc/apt/sources.list (or uncomment the lines if they are already there) I think that will put you up to lilypond version 2.6.something. If you need any later versions, you may need to build from source if you can't get the autopackage system to work. Or you could search the Ubuntu forums at http://www.ubuntuforums.org/ . Someone there might have built a more-recent .deb package for Ubuntu Lilypond. Good luck! Lambros S L Raymond wrote: I'm running version 2.2 in Ubuntu Breezy Badger, and Synaptic tells me 2.2 is the latest, when it's clear that 2.6 is the current stable. Any Debian/Ubuntu gurus care to tell me what steps to take to manually upgrade? I'm stuck with a version that still notates maj7 chords as "M" chords, so I need to get out of 2.2 as quickly as possible (I've got deadlines). Thanks in advance. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
LilyPond localization
Hello! I've translated lilypond tutorial into Russian, how can I commit it? I've tried to send email, but no answer. Best regards, A. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: linewidth
Hi,
Thank you so much. This is how it looks now:
\version "2.6.4"
\book { \header { title = "Scales" }
\score { \layout { raggedlast = ##t } { \set stringNumberOrientations = #'(down) \clef "G_8" \override Staff.TimeSignature #'style = #'()
4 d4 4 f4 g4 4 b4 c'4 4 e'4 f'4 4 a'4 g'4 4 e'4 \break
d'4 4 b4 a4 4 f4 e4 4 c4 b,4 4 g,4 f,4 g,4 a,4 4 \break
\override Staff.BarLine #'transparent = ##t c2 s1 r2 s1 \revert Staff.BarLine #'transparent \bar "||" } \header { piece = "CM - Movable" } }
}
Thanks.
Gus
View this message in context: Re: linewidth
Sent from the Gnu - Lilypond - User forum at Nabble.com.
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Re: A simple diagram of a .ly file?
Quoth Graham Percival:
> On 4-Jan-06, at 8:54 PM, Ray wrote:
> > Furthermore, when any kind of bug appeared it was almost impossible
> > to sleuth out...as there is almost no documentation (that I could
> > find, anyway) dealing with the syntax or _general_ form of a .ly
> > document.
>
> Did you read "chapter 4: putting it all together"? Section 4.2 is
> specifically aimed at solving this issue... this is an honest question,
> not a rhetorical one. If section 4.2 wasn't understandable, I should
> work on that. If you didn't notice 4.2, then I should work on
> improving its visibility (say, by having a link to it from within the
> tutorial).
I don't know about Ray, but I can say that for myself, I never really
noticed Section 4 there; because the manual is not really structured as
a read-straight-through document (yes, I know you can get it in that
form, but the default is clickable-ToC), I sort of bounced around.
But I've just now read it, and it *really* doesn't address this concern,
which is also a problem I've had. That chapter is still all about
tweaking templates. I realise that everyone learns differently, but
when I was first figuring LP out I would've really appreciated something
that just gave the layout of a file, almost like a BNF grammar (but
don't call it that or you'll scare people away). E.g.
Every Lilypond document has three parts: a header, other definitions,
and the score, in that order. The header looks like this:
\header {
...
}
and contains lines giving the title, composer, and so on (see section
X.Y). The other definitions can actually be empty, but many lilypond
users like defining the melody or harmony at this point, to make their
file more modular and easily organised. (See section Z.W for how to
make and access these definitions.) Finally, the score. A score looks
like this:
\score {
\midi { ... }
\layout { ... }
...
}
The \midi block can be left blank, or it can contain tempo information
(or it can be omitted entirely if you don't want MIDI output). The
layout block contains global information about staff layout (see
section U.V). In the main body of the \score block comes the actual
music, which can be typed in directly or can refer back to music entered
in the "other definitions" section in the middle of the file. See
sections S-T for how to enter the music itself.
Finally, it is recommended that at the top of the file, before even
the \header block, you include two lines to let the lilypond
interpreter know what style of input you are using:
\version "2.6.0"
\include "english.ly"
The first line gives your current lilypond version; if you ever
upgrade, lilypond will be able to warn you about changes you need to
make. The language definition need not match your native language or
those of the lyrics in the file, but indicates how you refer to
different notes: what the English-speaking world calls "B flat" and
notates "bf" in lilypond, the German-speaking world calls "B", and the
French-speaking world calls "si", so lilypond needs to know which
naming system you're using. See section Q.R for a list of valid choices.
The important thing to remember is that for anything but a detailed
program reference, you can give the big picture without telling the
whole story all at once. Yes, lilypond will let you omit \layout
sometimes, but if you say that, then you have to talk about when and
why. And then the reader gets confused, and you've not helped much.
Sure, you can arrange your file in a variety of ways, but it doesn't
hurt to say it "has three parts...", because it *can* and that will work
just fine until the user understands enough to want to rearrange it.
I meant to just type a short example, but it looks like what I've
written is just about right for the first page of the section I'm
envisioning. Feel free to use it as you like
> There are three categories of problems with the docs:
> 1. Stuff I'm aware of, and is on my list of things to fix.
Is your list public or semi-public? That might help. Could we maybe
use the wiki for some of this?
--
-=-Don [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A simple diagram of a .ly file?
On 6-Jan-06, at 6:53 PM, Don Blaheta wrote: Quoth Graham Percival: Did you read "chapter 4: putting it all together"? Section 4.2 is specifically aimed at solving this issue... this is an honest question, not a rhetorical one. If section 4.2 wasn't understandable, I should work on that. If you didn't notice 4.2, then I should work on improving its visibility (say, by having a link to it from within the tutorial). I don't know about Ray, but I can say that for myself, I never really noticed Section 4 there; because the manual is not really structured as a read-straight-through document (yes, I know you can get it in that form, but the default is clickable-ToC), I sort of bounced around. Ok. I'll add links from the tutorial or something. But I've just now read it, and it *really* doesn't address this concern, which is also a problem I've had. That chapter is still all about tweaking templates. Only one section is. Another is on general lilypond usage (which could apply to templates), but the third is about overlapping notation, which has nothing to do with templates. I realise that everyone learns differently, but when I was first figuring LP out I would've really appreciated something that just gave the layout of a file, almost like a BNF grammar (but don't call it that or you'll scare people away). E.g. Have you read 5.7? That's where the BNF-type thing should go. If 5.7 isn't technical / strict enough for you, please send me more info to include in it. Every Lilypond document has three parts: a header, other definitions, and the score, in that order. The header looks like this: ... although this type of definition would be useful, I'm torn on whether to include it in the tutorial. It would certainly help some people... but I also winced when I read it, since it's incorrect. Now, it's quite common in North American schools to teach incorrect, but useful, information. I remember being by a teacher that you "couldn't do 5-4" (I think I was 6 years old) and pointed out that the weatherman talked about "minus 1", so why not? It isn't uncommon to be told "ok, remember how a few years ago you learned that foo? Well, that's not actually right; actually, bar happens". That even happened in high school (such as 16-year old). Some of it was unintentional (like the math teacher that claimed that there were three kinds of numbers: positive, negative, and absolute. Absolute numbers aren't positive, apparently). I don't know if this kind of educational philosophy is practiced in Europe. I certainly hope not, since I think it's terrible. :( However, it does make things easier for some students (and certainly for the teachers) I'll add some info like this, but I'll make it clear that "a lilypond file _usually_ has three parts", that this is a simplification, and that users should consult section x.y for an accurate description. I meant to just type a short example, but it looks like what I've written is just about right for the first page of the section I'm envisioning. Feel free to use it as you like I will. There are three categories of problems with the docs: 1. Stuff I'm aware of, and is on my list of things to fix. Is your list public or semi-public? That might help. Could we maybe use the wiki for some of this? It's not worth a wiki. Contributed material should be sent to me and/or lilypond-devel, and I'm the only person who should be editing my list of things I need to fix. :) I'll send a list of things out in a bit over a week. There are a bunch of things I want to fix before inviting people to compare the manual with my list of stuff to do (and that's what will happen as soon as I post such a list :) Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Ubuntu Problem
after adding that line, I get the following error when running synaptic: W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy-backports/universe Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_universe_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy-backports/multiverse Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy-backports/universe Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_universe_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy-backports/multiverse Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) On Fri, 2006-01-06 at 17:37 +0100, Gauvain Pocentek wrote: > Hi, > > LilyPond 2.6 is available on the backports repository. > Add this line in your /etc/apt/sources.list file: > > deb http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu breezy-backports main restricted > universe multiverse > > There's a non-solved-but-known-bug on the lily package. You need to > install tetex-bin to avoid troubles. > > Gauvain > > > S L Raymond wrote: > > >I'm running version 2.2 in Ubuntu Breezy Badger, and Synaptic tells me > >2.2 is the latest, when it's clear that 2.6 is the current stable. > > > >Any Debian/Ubuntu gurus care to tell me what steps to take to manually > >upgrade? I'm stuck with a version that still notates maj7 chords as "M" > >chords, so I need to get out of 2.2 as quickly as possible (I've got > >deadlines). > > > >Thanks in advance. > > > > > >___ > >lilypond-user mailing list > >lilypond-user@gnu.org > >http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs > exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. > Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Ubuntu Problem
There are two things that this reminds me of. Did you include the entire line, including the "deb" at the beginning? Did you run apt-get update (or the synaptic equivalent)? Josiah On Sat, 7 Jan 2006, S L Raymond wrote: after adding that line, I get the following error when running synaptic: W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy-backports/universe Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_universe_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy-backports/multiverse Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy-backports/universe Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_universe_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com breezy-backports/multiverse Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) On Fri, 2006-01-06 at 17:37 +0100, Gauvain Pocentek wrote: Hi, LilyPond 2.6 is available on the backports repository. Add this line in your /etc/apt/sources.list file: deb http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu breezy-backports main restricted universe multiverse There's a non-solved-but-known-bug on the lily package. You need to install tetex-bin to avoid troubles. Gauvain S L Raymond wrote: I'm running version 2.2 in Ubuntu Breezy Badger, and Synaptic tells me 2.2 is the latest, when it's clear that 2.6 is the current stable. Any Debian/Ubuntu gurus care to tell me what steps to take to manually upgrade? I'm stuck with a version that still notates maj7 chords as "M" chords, so I need to get out of 2.2 as quickly as possible (I've got deadlines). Thanks in advance. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ Nouveau : t??l??phonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! D??couvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. T??l??chargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Ubuntu Problem
It seems that the repository I mentionned doesn't exist... Sorry about that. I guess you already had a look at Lambros Lambrou's message, and got working deb lines. Gauvain S L Raymond wrote: >after adding that line, I get the following error when running synaptic: > >W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com >breezy-backports/universe Packages >(/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_universe_binary-i386_Packages) > - stat (2 No such file or directory) >W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com >breezy-backports/multiverse Packages >(/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages) > - stat (2 No such file or directory) >W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com >breezy-backports/universe Packages >(/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_universe_binary-i386_Packages) > - stat (2 No such file or directory) >W: Couldn't stat source package list http://us.archive.ubuntu.com >breezy-backports/multiverse Packages >(/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_breezy-backports_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages) > - stat (2 No such file or directory) > >On Fri, 2006-01-06 at 17:37 +0100, Gauvain Pocentek wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>LilyPond 2.6 is available on the backports repository. >>Add this line in your /etc/apt/sources.list file: >> >>deb http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu breezy-backports main restricted >>universe multiverse >> >>There's a non-solved-but-known-bug on the lily package. You need to >>install tetex-bin to avoid troubles. >> >>Gauvain >> >> >>S L Raymond wrote: >> >> >> >>>I'm running version 2.2 in Ubuntu Breezy Badger, and Synaptic tells me >>>2.2 is the latest, when it's clear that 2.6 is the current stable. >>> >>>Any Debian/Ubuntu gurus care to tell me what steps to take to manually >>>upgrade? I'm stuck with a version that still notates maj7 chords as "M" >>>chords, so I need to get out of 2.2 as quickly as possible (I've got >>>deadlines). >>> >>>Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>>___ >>>lilypond-user mailing list >>>lilypond-user@gnu.org >>>http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>___ >>Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs >>exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. >>Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com >> >> > > > ___ Nouveau : t�l�phonez moins cher avec Yahoo! Messenger ! D�couvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. T�l�chargez sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
